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what are some thoughts of going stowed with a 46.
if the jump called for a 46 with a second or less delay, but getting out to the exit hand held would be tricky or dangerous would a stowed 46 have a greater chance of hesitating?
ive wondered about the amount of material folded and low airspeed making hesitation more likley.

I stow my 48" & have not had a problem with hesitation - BUT I always stow it on the same day that I jump (I do that with all sizes anyway) AND perhaps more importantly - use the Super Mushroom packing technique.

most jumpers fold the p/c nearly the same way when going hand held as they do if they were to stow it. it's not going to be a measurable difference. you will however end up stretching out your boc if you keep stuffing that 46 in there.

One of the main reasons to go hand held is that it has a noticeably lower hesitation rate than going stowed. If you fold the PC in the same way for hand held as you do for stowed, you are losing this advantage, and, as you observed, there is very little measurable difference.

Using a different folding technique may result in more of a difference (and much more consistent inflation of your hand held PC).

The goals of PC delivery are:

1) Get the PC to bridle stretch firmly and consistently;
2) Deliver the PC to bridle stretch in the best position to inflate well;
3) Eliminate any chance for PC/Bridle interaction (and potential entanglement).


In my experience, the method that best meets all three of these criteria for a hand held deployment is the simple S folding of the entire PC in the hand.

Using a mushroom pack (like the one in the BOC for most stowed jumps) usually makes it harder to get the PC to bridle stretch in a good position and also makes the PC much more likely to interact with the bridle (this is because a large percentage of jumpers hold the mushroom "backward," and toss it with the skirt travelling first).

Regardless of pitch technique (i.e. even if throwing the apex in the lead and the skirt following) the mushroom packed PC has more "unfolding" to do than the simple S folded one, once it reaches line stretch.

If you are going to mushroom pack the PC, you might as well leave it in the BOC and have both hands free.


In regards to the original question (stowing a 46), I wouldn't advise that. A stowed PC has a noticeably higher hesitation rate than a hand held one, and larger PC's when stowed, greatly increase this rate. I'd estimate that a stowed 46 experiences a noticeable hesitation something like 5% of the time. I'm not sure what altitude you're jumping from, but if it's high enough to take a second of delay, I'd probably go with a 42 to reduce the chance for hesitation.

I stow my 46 regularly, but try to do it as close to exit time as possible. BOC fabric is still plenty tight. (not stretched out)

i stow my 48 46 also...no probs....

I always went hand held the same way as stowed, then I saw Tom's way at B-Day and and tried it on a three hundred. The problem is if you got little tiny bitch hands like me, and a cap on your 46', you can't hold it all. Kinda freaked me out. Any way, Tom could you PM me I got a question?

Couldn't you just make wider s-folds of the fabric? That would thin out the amount you grab in your hand. To be honest I wouldn't make my bridle s-folds longer though...PC/bridle entanglement freaks me out.

Just my 2 cts.

I re-did it two or three times and never really got it where I liked it, when I could hold it, there was just a lot of material around my hand that didn't feel right, for the amount of hesitation it causes, I like the pull it out stowed and go method, off 300's anyway, any lower and I would probably switch.

I rarely jump over 300 and routinely BOC my 48 at 300 with a 1-2 second delay. It works fine.

I had a 1.5 second hesi on a stowed 46" using regular mushroom.

Using a super mushroom, I haven't had one, but after the skids I left in my diaper on the hesi...I only stow the 46 when the exit doesn't allow hand-held or I need to run to clear something I probably shouldn't be trying to jump over in the first place.

$.02

 

I agree with Tree. If it's low enough to require a 48 and if there is no compelling reason to go stowed because of the exit point, then go hand held. It also has the advantage of being able to enjoy the freefall visuals a lot more since you don't have to think about having to jump, reach, grab, and throw.

what about a flip?

I think there are times when 46 stowed is a better choice than handheld (the low alti flippy-dos that Calvin describes being a great example) - but in my opinion those should only be done when the jumper is experienced enough and knows exactly what he is doing. A real cool option for people who use a variety of sizes of PCs on their rig is getting a dual BOC pouch - I had a Pete Swan special Velcro rig with that feature, it seemed totally cool. That will allow to stow large PCs and small PCs without sacrificing the spandex "grip"

I don't do flips from 300 feet, much less with a stowed pilot chute. Seems like a perfect method to get on the List.

I do remember seeing a photo of Andy Smith, BASE 9, doing aerials from 170 feet with a static line attached to his rig. Yikes.

My first BASE rig was made in 1984 (a converted Wonderhog system, with the reserve part made into a velcro rig) and it did not have a spandex pouch, so I had to go handheld on everything, including terminal jumps. The rig would dump on me if I tried to do aerials so I had to stick to belly to earth jumping.

Yeah, I splurged and got the BOC option on my Vertigo Warlock when Stowed BASE jumps started to be the new thing in 2003.

 
If it's low, go hand held. If not and you want to stow it, stow it. It's pretty much that simple. If it really does have more of a tendency to open slower, then do it on a jump where a 1 second hesi won't kill you. II've not witnessed an increase of hesis on 46 or 48 but I've noted occasional hesis on PC's in general.

I don't always carry all my pilot chutes with me so if the 46 is on there so be it. I've many jumps back to back alternating between rigs and doing a 2 - 3 second delay.

I've noticed that pilot chutes that want to hesitate are compressed with the skirt and some of the mesh compressed in on itself. Think of a C being squished
ready to fold up rather than a compressed O.

I always make sure the skirt especially it open at the bottom before folding it to fit a BOC pouch.


So far so good.

i do a mushroom stowed pc.
what is a "super mushroom"?

It's folding method that collapses the center line in order to get the mesh between the bits of the ZP, in an effort to speed inflation by pushing the ZP open sooner in the sequence (basically, it's getting pushed open by the mesh, rather than by airflow).

ok thanks. is it effective?

was i drinking heavily during class again ? i think i missed the super mushroom lecture !!! dammit

Can you post a pic?

I did some rough throw/drop tests with a friend (DW) several years ago. He thought that they were about the same. I gave a slight edge to the super mushroom, for hesitation a bit less often (meaning that in the 30 or so tests we had 1 hesitation on the regular mushroom and none on the super mushroom), but the tests were hardly scientific.

Many people dislike the super mushroom because it collapses the center line. Others argue that reduction in hesitation potential in initial expansion is more than the increase in hesitation potential in the inflation phase (after reaching bridle stretch).

In real practice, there appear to be about the same number of serious hesitations, but it's hard to judge because of the small number of super mushroom users and the likelihood that a non-incident hesitation will go unreported.

There is a set of instructions here written up by the guy who invented it.


Paul, you weren't drunk. I don't usually teach this method because it doesn't appear to have appreciable advantages in practice, and as there are a huge number of things to teach, I have to pick and choose a small percentage of them to jam into a course.

Being the loving, caring, super conservative BASE jumper I am...I did my own analysis...of video mostly...to answer the same question.

IMHO - Johnny's super mushroom just inflates faster and I now use it on everything. From HH 46 to 38 in a track. My PC is full at 45 degrees as it's rotating up from pitch. With the regular mushroom...the PC is always still "stretched out" closed until it's above my back. More fabric in...more fabric out.

The difference is miniscule, and from the Perrine - you can wad your shit in a ball tucked into your mlw and chuck it whenever - and you'll be fine, but on a gainer off of a 300' A surrounded by 60' trees...it matters.

(There are plenty of people who know which object I'm talking about...)

But here's somethin for the OP - try a bunch of different shit from a forgiving object - and pick the one you like. PC packjobs are like assholes, or Mashaals...

Usually that's a difference observed between F-111 PC's (or very clapped out ZP ones) (which rotate back over the jumper before inflating) and ZP PC's (which inflate at 45 degrees). Were you using the same PC in both cases? How many jumps did you review? I've got hundreds (maybe thousands) of jumps on video from the Perrine that show the standard mushroom with a ZP pilot chute inflating off to the side of the jumper.

I think we must have seen fairly different things. But, leaving aside whether my analysis and yours came to the same conclusions or not...


It is definitely _not_ fundamentally obvious that the one situation is superior to the other.

When the PC inflates out to the side (as is pretty normal with ZP PC's), it begins an oscillation. It travels over the jumper, then usually continues past a bit, swings back toward the jumper, continues past a bit less, swings back over the jumper, continues past even less, and so on, until either (a) it stabilizes over the jumper, or (b) the canopy reaches line stretch and ends the sequence.

The problem is that this PC oscillation can generate off heading openings. Many people have chosen to go with F-111 PC's to alleviate this problem. It sounds like you're saying that for you, the way to do this is not to change PC's to F-111, but rather just to change your PC folding method.

I'd be very interested to have you teach me your method for doing the mushroom pack, because it's staging the inflation in ways that my technique cannot, and you're able to avoid the oscillation problem that I see frequently.

You're the one who taught me! And I've analyzed tens of jumps...maybe even elevens of them.

I do pitch like I'm trying to rip the bridle connection point though. Maybe that strings it out.

Oh, and all my shit is ZP vented.

Whats the super mushroom? I just pull all my mesh through, S fold the mesh and bridle, fold half the PC over into a semi circle and grip around the S fold to keep it still. Then fold on half of the semi circle down, and one half up turning it into a non homoerotic sausage.

i tried this folding tech this morning from johnnys website tom posted. it seems pretty interesting. i got a little confused at the section he's flipping over the quartered mesh and "scrunching" the nylon. when i tried this i just couldnt tell what i was suppose to be doing and messed it all up.
seems like a very good method so ill put more time into it when im done with "work".

The best way I've found (Harvey mod) to do it is:

1) Pull the apex through your hand to the bottom of the skirt and hold it in the ring of your thumb/fingers.

2) Flop the PC apex down on the ground and pull it out even in a nice circle. The mesh/bridle attachment point is above your hand.

3) While holding down on the ZP...flatten out the mesh in another flat circle above your hand.

4) Pull your hand out.

5) You now have two nice round circles on top of each other. One ZP, one mesh.

6) S-fold the bridle normally in one direction.

7) Reach underneath to the apex and grab a pud full of all the fabric and the bridle bundle. Hold it tight. (Use your man hands)

8) Dress it up by pushing the pieces around the skirt seam that slipped out up into the pud.

9) Use the free hand to pull it all into a nice little "tube" - Stow the bitch and hi-yacka.

Takes a little practice, works like a charm. Try it out...good to know new things.

I'll be at the Po-Tay-To Sunday if anyone's in town. Be happy to demonstrate.

What you described is the regular mushy-room.

you rock, thanks dude

There needs to be a step in there to manage the center-line to make sure it's out of the way and not able to knot up on itself or other bits of fabric.

Indeed...I normally have it pulled into the top part and folded over once.

http://www.johnnyutah.com/supermushroom.html

You realize you just reposted the link that I had put in Post #24 of this thread, right?

But it appears that Johnny Utah made an excellent page on his website just to address these problems. Don't worry Tom, I don't think Johnny will be upset with you for pasting what he has had on his website for the last several years. The least you could do is give him some credit for it.

Johnny is an excellent, and current BASE jumper. I, for one, appreciate all that he has done for the community. Thanks Johnny!

http://www.johnnyutah.com/supermushroom.html

.

You mean like he did in the part quoted below?

Well I just had a 2.5 hesi on a B this evening. Stowed 46 vented with a sec deley. Regular the mushroom method. .

bet that got your attention.
fuckn scarry huh? details?
what height, how deep in the dirt were you opened at?
did you make bears in your pants?
glad your ok

wow that is scary shit! I often go stowed with a 46. its not vented nor does it have a cap. A 2.5 sec delay in my case would be devestating...

I've done 130 or so odd jumps using a stowed 46 and haven't had problems. May be rethinking that.

It was a 550' B using a asylum 46" vented pc. i had taken a 1.5 sec deley. After I pitched I was able to fell the pins pulled but no canopy. from the video it looked like the pc was just towing behind me not inflated. after I got a canopy (dagger 244) i had a 90 left probably from me dropping a shoulder. There is not a doubt in my mind that if it had been a low object I would not be here.

I was able to fell the pins pulled ...

Are you sure it wasn't someone running over a squirrel??

We don't have those little fuckers in Vegas.

How long had the PC been in the BOC prior to the jump?

a few hours.

I now have video of the hesi. If you would like to see it please PM me.

i had pc hesi on a 230' skibase last week going stowed with 46. it took a full 3 sec from pitch to pin pop (not open canopy). you can see the pc not inflated and just getting dragged down in the vid. packed PC that morning just an hour before.

opened 10ft off the deck (no shit) over snow, and tumbled over rocks and snow before self-arresting over another cliff band (40-50ft)

completely uninjured. way fckn lucky.

next time would go 42 without question. i had perfect airspeed that 42 would of been fine. i went 46 thinking bigger is better get the fuckr out and open asap.

live n' learn.

Ted. THe 46 served you well. eating shit and getting away with it is totally your M.O. your stickin it bro. keep it up. i have never seen anyone use their pads to their limits like you.

You are the man!

way to open new ski base sites. props.

thanks UPH! were going 1-2 for tramface!