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Hi,

I had a rather scary experience on my 14th base jump yesterday and am hoping someone may have some advice on how I might avoid this in the future.

I jump a vented Troll 225 and weigh about 140 pounds. I did pretty much a go and throw off a 325ft freestander and opened with a 90 left off-heading. My immediate response was to give input to my right rear riser to get myself facing back away from the tower. I began with a fairly light input, but as I wasn't getting much response I started increasing it. I still wasn't turning, but I realized I was falling backwards towards the tower, which I saw rapidly approaching me by my left foot. So of course I gave up trying to turn and grabbed the toggles to get some forward speed, carved around the top of a tree, hopped over some power lines, and landed in a small alternate landing area next to the tower. This made for some cool video footage, but it would be cooler if I hadn't stalled my canopy trying to do a rear riser turn.

I actually had a similar but less drastic experience like this on the same canopy jumping a 260ft building awhile ago. In that case, I was only about 10-20 degrees "off-heading" to the left (actually the canopy opened on heading but my body had turned slightly to the left in freefall). I again went first to the right rear riser to turn towards my landing area, but when I had the sensation of falling backwards I popped the brakes. At the time I wasn't sure if the falling backwards was just an after-effect of the opening (the "back-surge" I have heard about on vented canopies?), but now I suspect it may have been due to the rear riser input.

So I'm wondering if other people have had this experience and whether there is some way I can avoid this. Should I be waiting half a second longer before trying to use my rears? That doesn't sound like a good idea. I also don't like feeling forced to go straight to toggles, since if I'm facing the wrong direction I may not want all that forward speed. Is it possible that my deep brake setting is too deep? I haven't changed the factory settings, and I'm loading the canopy right around the recommended average loading. Obviously I can improve my launch and body position to reduce the occurrence of off-heading openings, but of course it will happen again anyway, and I'd like to avoid falling backwards into objects if possible.

Please let me know if you have any advice.

Thanks,
Penelope

the answer to your question (I believe) is covered by most FJCs. it is rather basic. a good mentor can also help.

I bet someone will chime in with a solid answer, but this is not complicated. what other information might you need? you need to ensure you get help personally, by someone who understands your strengths and weaknesses.

also, you'll get more customized advise if you fill in your profile.

if it is such an easy and basic answer then why don't you just answer the question?

1) because too many users like to jump on moderators who give advice. I'd rather remain neutral on technical subjects.

2) because I do not trust how this jumper is learning the sport. I know too little about their situation to give complete advice. I'd much rather steer them toward a proper track.

3) the most valuable lessons are earned not received. I learned a long time ago that I did NOT get everything I wanted... good thing too!

I agree with jt ... just answer it. F*(kin pain in the ass getting an answer to a question sometimes. I do agree with you too though in the sense that the answer should be easy to figure out. You just reminded me, My profile is blank... I'll customize my answer accordingly.

Use the toggles. If you're not facing the object, don't waste time and altitude.

While this should be common sense, it seems that it is not. The canopy opens in a near stall. Grab a riser and that side will inevitably stall completely.

If you're quick about it, the canopy will snap turn. If you're slow about it, the canopy barely turns, falls off backwards, and then surges after you give up and grab toggles. When you pull the riser down and it starts sinking quicker, a common reaction is to grab both toggles and do one of 2 things.

Clear the brakes and let the toggles up ... big surge ... hope your not too low...

Clear the brakes and cram them all the way down... bigger stall. ... Hope your not too low...

*too low: To not slam into the ground or whatever is on the ground. To miss the desired landing zone. To miss the trees, light poles ...etc.

So if you do go from riser to toggles, it should be practiced to clear the brakes and have them in a contollable position.

If you must do riser turns, practice on something less important.

1: Then don't be vague. That's like telling a skydiver who asks a quesion... call the manufacturer or ask the instructor, he/she knows best. (Do they?)

- Mods on other forums answer questions all the time. Perhaps if your name wasn't green you'd think other wise. Just put a forum mod label under your name or something.

2: Then just tell them to think about it first. Ask if he has a highly experienced jumper to bounce questions off. Otherwise give your opinion and use your own scenario to back it up.

By the way... I was my own instructor/mentor, whatever you wish to call it. I learned some by trial and error... error being the biggest teacher. Luck and body armor helped as well. So did rigging experience, a LOT of skydives and mechanical reasoning skills.

3. I found that as well. however some times it's better to just help them with a reasonable answer. Then they have something to think about.

The only difference between you/me... and a newbie is time and jumps. Soon they'll be the experienced ones. Teach them to share answers rather than be a dark arts snob.


Edit: number 1

Penelope,
I had the same exact problem, although not in as drastic as situation as you. Fortuanetly for me, I was only at the Perrine, where the off heading and delay in riser turn/begin to stall really had little consequences other than me landing on the beach.

BTW, I jump a FLiK 266, and weigh 180 pounds.

Heres what happened to me:
-Knocked out a gainer, pull, boom canopy opens, and i'm just a hair over 45 to the left, and even though its the Perrine I like to go for risers anyway just for muscle memory.
-I grab the right riser at the link and give it a solid pull, and get absolutely no response other than me sinking even more.
-I pull even more riser to where I have plenty of slack in the riser, theres no question that I was giving that riser hell while getting no response.
-Just like you, I ditched the risers and went for toggles and finally got response.
I rattled my brain over this and looked at video taken from the bridge, you can see where my canopy is clearly being pulled on rear riser but getting no response. It really was a surprise to me because I was used to doing rear floats and just zipping my FLiK around like nothing.

My non-expert opinion has come to this (and I'm going to talk to Jimmy and Marta and find out what they think) rests solely in the aerodynamic properties of the canopy and the timing of when you go for rear riser. Your canopy turns because air hits an offsetting in fabric that you input into the canopy. Now, if you jump with deep brake settings and IMMEDIATELY go for rear risers as soon as you have an offheading, the canopy has not yet had a chance yet to surge forward, therefore no air is moving across the canopy to actually push it around. So when you move too quickly to the rear riser, you're actually preventing the canopy from moving forward even more, which begins to make it fall backwards and eventually stall.

Experts, do you agree?

Just let me know if you want to discuss this further, i'd be glad to think about it some more, I'm glad someone else has the same problem I do.

I am also glad this is brought up and keen to get an answer? I have footage where my buddy did a go-and-throw off a 300ft E got a 120 left. He was quickly on his rear riser but only succeeded in stalling it and ultimately collapsing it... and it get even scarier..with his still forward momentum he hit the cliff with nothing but fluff above him. Luckily no serious injuries - had the cliff been higher he might not have been as fortunate.
This footage have been recking our brains.....

I have also read articles where people couldn't turn away from the object after a strike with only riser input but then managed to do so with toggles...

I remember in one of my BASE DVDs someone mentioned the Sure Grab Toggle tecqnique of rather immidiately go for togglles pulling it all the way down to mid-brakes once popped to avoid forward speed. From here you can then initiate a rappid toggle turn - with less altitude loss. This to me seems to be the answer...?!

Would love to hear from the more experienced jumpers!!

(PS: we have no mentors in SA )

If you're using a very deep brake setting it's really easy to induce stalling, especially if you dont wait for the canopy to gain a minimum of airspeed.

Going for the toggles let the canopy surge just a little bit before you stop it and turn it, thus insuring that the canopy is flying above the stall point.

If you have no twist the quickest solution is to spin directly the canopy with a rear riser and the opposite front riser, toggles still locked. The goal is to induce half of the canopy to fly backwards, and avoid the other half to stall by making it fly forwards. This method makes you spin without horizontal movement (you're just on the vertical axis of rotation), but consumes more altitude.

I'm also going to add something in here.

People often give advice, based on their present set ups (canopy, brake settings etc). Your's might be different. Doing what someone does on a Flik may not work so well on a Troll, for example.

Trolls, in my experience (and that of the people I've spoken with) don't respond well on rear risers. They turn slowly and lose lots of height. If I tried rear risers to fix a straight 180 off Yellow Ocean, I'd be in the trees before I'd turned it away.

Toggles work better on this canopy IMHO; personally I can grab my toggles and start putting input in almost as fast as I can just tugging on a rear.Troll's also don't give you a surge like some canopies when you do release the brakes. Just be careful not to pull them down too far too fast after opening, before it's pressurised.

Your earlier jump from the B: you've got a small off-heading (I was once told that <30 degrees is on-heading for practical reasons). It's non-emergency. Use the toggles and flat-turn it.

It also sounds like you're deep brake setting may be too deep, but I haven't seen your canopy or your jumps, so it's diffcult to comment. The effectiveness of rear riser turns does reduce as you move to deeper and deeper settings.

BTW, all my jumps are on either a Troll 245 MDV or Troll 265 MDV.

The answer you need however could be involved, so I'd definitely recommend speaking with experienced jumpers around you.

Hope that all helps!

Anyone else should feel free to chime in if they disagree...

o.k.

to build on what Pendragon wrote...

personal preference, typical jump objects, altitude, experience, gear, etc. all influence what your "proper" brake settings.

your brake settings determine how your parachute will fly on opening.

how your canopy flies determines which input you should use (2 toggles, 4 risers, provides at least 15 options).

people will give advise, but unless they have seen your canopy fly, it might not be accurate.

theory ought to be confirmed, tested, and gear tweaked off of a "safe" object. that let's you really understand your equipment. canopy drills from an airplane can also let you know your parachute better.

rear risers?
could be a bad skydiving habit. skydiving rigs are rigged to have forward flight with brakes set. not necessarily so with BASE gear. it can be. it all depends on your choices. applying rear risers (especially over aggressively) risks stalling that side and having it drop away and behind you. you need to know your gear.

for example...
the rear riser problem will be more prominent in a parachute without vents. it may not be fully pressurized when you apply the input. a vented parachute will respond differently. (I have no experience with Trolls.)

it really sounds like the OP is relying heavily on their luck bucket and need to educate themselves before they visit the hospital... how the parachute responds should NOT surprise you! make sure you fully understand the points raised. it might not be a complete list.

Electively....If I can get to toggles on a Troll after an off heading...I will.
If I'm facing an object and impact is close ...and all I have in my hand ...right there and then...is the riser....I'll use that and 'fly' both risers out of the problem....either stalling a side to turn back/fall away, flying the canopy backwards to give that crucial couple o seconds/reduction in straight line speed....or simply turning away from the object using the rears, or grabbing the line group.

I don't make a concious decision in those circumstances of 'what' I 'should' grab because someone on BJ.com said its technically the best thing to do.
Know what turning on rears on your canopy does
Know what turing on toggles on your canopy does.
Deal with the cards you are dealt.
Try and make the right decision on what to do....but more important , do something ...quickly....if you don't have the time...don't analyse....react.
I've seen enough video/heard enough stories of people not 'reacting' immediately to what's happening to them.

Ive had .a few close calls, on some less than favourable objects/LZ's....but no object strikes.
( yet)

http://blincmagazine.com/...isers-revisited.html

I would suggest you dial in your brake settings for your weight. If you go for rear risers, pull both of them down, the release one to create a flat turn. If you pull down on only one, the canopy will stall slightly in a strange way and will be unresponsive to this single input.

What about releasing the opposite brake? hold it in a half brake position and effectively flat turn away with a little forward energy but not too much.

so you leave the tower stowed.. throw and open 90 degrees left.. release the left toggle and hold it half down flat turning right. If the object is on the left, release the left toggle.. if the object is on the right, release the right toggle.. but not all the way so you don't dive obviously.

thoughts? especially seems like a good idea considering how deep brake settings are commonly..

just a thought. I'm fishing here..

"Ive had .a few close calls, on some less than favourable objects/LZ's....but no object strikes.
( yet) "

Give it time young Jedi.

I was able to turn this VERY fast s/u 180 with left toggle. I had the toggle unstowed and buried (look at the left arm) before the slider was finished making its way down. Even though I hit the object, damage would have been a hell of a lot worse had I done nothing. I believe getting on rears would have had a similar outcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv8NvKg17w0


I agree with Zoter about dealing with the hand your delt. ALL situations will be different. Like everyone is saying (to the original poster) practice every bit of imput possible on safer more forgiving objects. Take those skills and apply them when (not if) the shit really hits the fan.

Good luck and play it safe.

"What about releasing the opposite brake? hold it in a half brake position and effectively flat turn away with a little forward energy but not too much. "

This is not a good option slider down, from my experience. On a 270' B I had a 90 R. immediately realeased the left brake to initiate a turn and, basically nothing happened. Maybe If i had really jammed it down, but the stowed brake basically cancelled the input. Released it and had time to turn away from landing in front of the lobby of the hotel, and flaired right into a tree...

I have found the best way to turn with risers is how 460 recomended. By pullind down both risers and letting up on the side opposite of the way you want to turn.

I jump an ACE 260 and am 170 lbs. As mentioned figure out what works best on your set up. Find a big rig and jump it out of a plane. I just did it after 250 BASE jumps and learned alot about how big BASE canopies fly.
Ren

Thinking is not exactly what happens. Reaction or lack of reaction is what happens in a high stress situation.
Lower aspect ratio canopies react slower and less efficient to inputs than higher aspect ratio ones.
One must fly the canopy. Do not assume that because you pull down on a rear riser X amount that it will turn X amount. The canopy must be flying before input can take effect.
Milking the riser turn is necessary in turning the canopy. Low aspect canopies need forward speed to be able to turn.
take care,
space

good read from J Utahs site. Toggles Vs Risers
http://johnnyutah.com/risersortoggles.html

I am not a greatly experienced jumper, I have less than 100 jumps at this point but here is a thought. Adjusting your brakes is a big part of riser/toggle choices. My deep brake setting is very deep, almost a perfect sink in no winds, therefore riser input on opening will only get a stall for a reaction. If you decrease the brake setting creating forward movement risers will begin to have more affect, but then you window of reaction becomes smaller. I know plenty of guys that prefer this and plenty of guys that set them as deep as I do. The best thing is to toy with it out of planes and decide which method is going to be best for you. One issue with the deeper setting is line twist. Normally one or two can be reached over and riser turned, deeper brakes can cause an issue in this situation.

Thanks for all of your input.

I was told by Robert Pecnik of Morpheus Tech. at Bridge Day this weekend that the Troll has the deepest brake settings of any BASE canopy on the market. He suggested that if I want to use rears for heading correction rather than toggles on slider down jumps I should just use the "shallow" brake setting. The shallow setting is only about 2.5" lower than the deep setting, meaning that on slider up jumps with "shallow" brakes, the effective reduced length of the brake lines due to routing through the slider makes riser response poor in these situations also. I was advised by several experienced friends that in order to have risers as an option rather than feeling forced to go to toggles, I should consider moving both brake settings up by about 2".

I would follow Roberts advise on the canopy you are jumping.
although you got a shitload of advise thrown at you. First thing that came to my mind when reading your problem was that you said you are jumping Slider-Down.
If you are jumping slider-down and your Slider in Not taken-off.
Did you by chance when securing it to the Risers. Tie it down on the Rear and the Front rather than tying it to just One Front Riser only ?
I am just asking because it is a common mistake made by starter jumpers. When told to tie the slider down to front or just slide the Grommet of Slider over one front-Riser Bumper for securing it.
Just asking but Newb's sometimes they just tie all 4 sides because it just sounds so much better and safer than just one front being tied.
If you didn't do it, then carry on.
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The Gargoyle/Troll setup provides a little slider tie-down tab that threads through the one front riser slider grommet and then snaps to the top of the riser. So I use that and nothing else.

I should consider moving both brake settings up by about 2".
-------------------------------------------------
you meant down by 2" ?

I meant 2" shallower. I guess which way you think of as "up" and "down" can vary.

I am assuming you told him your exact jumping weight? Wingloading still comes into play as far as I understand!? I have a Troll 305 MDV, I added a 3rd brake setting that is 2 inches and change deeper than factory deep and I still have enough forward speed to use risers without it stalling.

Your brakes are too deep.

The "textbook" definition of brakes that are too deep is that a single rear riser input causes the canopy to stall.

When setting DBS, the goal is to find the deepest setting that:

a) allows a turn response to a single rear riser input; and
b) minimizes forward speed at opening.

If a single rear riser input causes the canopy to stall, your brakes are too deep. Make them shallower and try again.

If your canopy has excessive forward speed (obviously this is both subjective and variable between canopies), your brakes are too shallow. Make them deeper and try again.

Given that there is only about a 2.5-3" difference between the deep and shallow settings, would you recommend making both of them shallower? Is 2" a good adjustment to start with?

I guess which way you think of as "up" and "down" can vary.
not really, if you want to go shallower you go down (toward the toggle)

If your brakes are fully stalling the canopy on single riser input on every jump (note that this may not be the case on every jump, as the stall point changes with density altitude--air temperature and altitude), then they are far too deep. I'd back them off at least two inches. In your case I'd probably start by trying the shallow setting as "deep", and go from there.

On slider up, using the current shallow setting, are you seeing any delay in the slider coming down?



When I'm adjusting brakes, I typically pick the bar tack out of the lower control line at the cascade, then redo the fingertrap there to shorten or lengthen the entire lower control line. By adjusting the fingertrap where the upper cascade meets the lower control line, I can slide the brakes up and down by very small increments in the field (since I can hand tack the fingertrap for added security), which allows me to make very small adjustments on back to back to back loads to check the brake settings.

Note that this means that my toggles are adjusted a corresponding amount, so after I find the brake setting I have to re-set the toggles (since toggle settings also ought to be customize to jumper arm length that's no big deal).

Bryan Stokes showed me this method of adjusting the brakes, and it works great--it's quick, it's easy, and it allows field adjustment to fine tune things. Thanks, Bryan!

No, I haven't noticed any delay in the slider coming down on slider up jumps.

That does sound like a good brake adjustment method, thanks! It will be particularly easy on the Troll, as they leave the brake lines knotted at the end to make it easier to adjust the toggle setting.

Had I not had a 180 last night, I would not be posting. However, I had my 3rd 180 in 9 years of jumping. I FF a 250' Self Support... felt the risers cross behind my neck... grabbed toggles and stalled it (decent tail wind)... When the half line twist cleared i was dead nuts looking at the tower.

So... Here is some more info to stew on. "I" have the best results (in a no wind situation) popping my toggles, pulling one ALL the way down and the other ALL the way up. This makes a kick ass center-point turn with one side of the canonpy stalled and going backwards and the other surging into full flight. I feel it is the fastest turn losing the least altitude my canopy can do. (Vented Fox 245, 5th control line, 200 lbs). It is also easy to over steer it.

I train myself one way so there is no confusion or hesitation. Toggles. Toggles. Toggles. Toggles. I think about at work, at home, before EVERY jump and even have dreams about it. An instinctive reaction is what will save your life.

To me an instinctive reaction would require more than 1 option. I have ALWAYS corrected 180's with toggles. Last month in Moab, I was looking straight at the "loud cliff area". When the wall is that close, I went risers for the first time ever. A little sluggish, but much quicker than toggles to prevent a strike. A plan A and B.....and maybe C, just in case would be more instinctive.IMO.

P.S.-I made it to the party that night.

What's the reason for securing the slider to one front riser and not both?

I know why you don't fix it at your rears, but I can't think of how having only one side fixed is better than both.

I was always told not to do it because by tying front and back and then reefing down on the Rear-Risers. They will be connected by the Slider .
.
edit to add:
The goal I guess is that your rear C-D line-sets be free sliding threw the Slider grommets. If the Slider was tied down to grommet blow the rear Bumper. Then you are pulling down the Slider as you pull down the Rear-Risers. Thus pulling front and back.
.

as long as it's secured... one or two, makes no difference. it could be easier depending on your config.,to change between sd and su.

I've also heard the argument that if your slider is below the rear bumpers, it can slide down over your toggles on opening and either release or jam them.

That would be pretty lame too.

No way a Slider can go over the Toggles if you secure your Slider by 'only' Front-Bumper. That's why you secure 'only' the Slider by One or maybe two of the front Risers. Grommets don't go over the Bummers either if the Bumper or even the Link is a larger outside Diam. than the inside Diameter of the Slider grommet hole.
Never and No need to what so ever to secure the Slider on all four points of the Risers. And that is what I am talking about. When you do overkill and tie a square piece of fabric between the Risers and then pull down on the Rear-Risers. you are limiting the distance of rear pull by the slider fabric cut dimensions.

Securing one front corner of a Slider is just a safety precaution on the 'Very Rare Remote' chance of the slider somehow rising up the line-sets and think that there has never been a documented case of that ever happening on BASE jump anyway.
Also on the overkill of Slider removal . Every time you do a No-Slider jump after a Slider-up jump and take the slider off and reconfigure the, Brake-line - Loop - Ring - Toggles and Slider. The biggest kill factor there is 'Pilot Rigging error' over time is Bigger than any slight chance of un-documented slider moving over the Toggles or rising up into the line-sets, Pilots for the most part usually kill themselves while the BASE gear is 99.9 % GTG and trying to save your life.
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No video but I've watched a non secured slider move about half way up a line set during a slider down deployment. It just went back down quickly but it did go up.

Secure to the front and you're good to go.

agreed. don't secure the rear of the slide since that could interfere with significant rear riser input.

I was only saying that could happen if the slider was below the rear bumpers.. I agree with your entire post. I do think it's better to secure to both front risers rather than just one, if only for the warm-and-fuzzy feeling that perfect symmetry brings.

if my slider is ON, i only attach it to one front riser. my reasoning is...

1. one is enough

2. i use a lot of front riser input, which can also be restricted by the slider from side to side.

probably doesn't make a huge difference, but that's what i do!

I p.c.a.'d mark bailey off a 220' bridge over land, racer with a cruislite, in 1987 here in Ky. His slider was not tied down, as we had just jumped a big A, and he trash packed a bridge for on the way home. His slider, though down, from the ground appeared to have been packed up even though it wasn't, sail slider, and he pounded in with it half way down the lines..he used a velcro loop on one front risor.Since then, I've tied down both for peaceof mind, or takenthe mofo off. I bought some risors from a manu., base specific, in past which had a velcro loop to secure slider down...wouldn't use it however.

I agree the risers put a large input into the canopy, the toggles are minor. One must be comfortable with manipulating the canopy, including fulling stalling it, stalling one side, to keeping all cells inflated and just turning the nose. This all depends on the jump and structure. If one does openings relatively close to the structure or has a significant distance from the structure.

Ok, freefalling a structure under 300 feet, you're either fucked or your not.