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When exiting a low vertical object (say sub 500') do you think you are better to more like step off and stay somewhat vertical in your body position or launch your body out for more separation?

Where is this question coming from? I'm going ask you the same question, in other words, what do you think is best?

-Do you think entire body position matters to the parachute or do you think shoulders and hips should be as squared off as possible?

-If you step off to stay vertical, but instead, blow the exit and go head low, do you think keeping the shoulders square is a good Idea? (follow up with next question)

- Since you stepped off, and went head low, what do you do if the canopy opens toward the object? Do you think pushing off is not a good idea?

-If your body is upright, the rig is straight up and down. Is there potential for parachute parts to hit anything or possibly catch on anything ... like the back of a helmet. (also think about it if you end up sitting back a bit)

-If you're level or chest high or even a little bit chest low, does the canopy have a cleaner shot at coming out of the container?

-500 feet is a pretty high, "low" object. You can take a pretty phat delay if the landing area is below you and fairly clean. If you take a 3 second delay, Which do you feel is a safer move. Stepping off to stay in more of a standing orientation and being closer to the object ... or ... pushing out chest high and maintaining a nice belly to earth, parachute to the sky orientation?

- consider a jump from a solid object where you can take anywhere from 1/2 to 1 second delay (or much longer delay for that matter). Do you think there might be any reason to just step off and be closer to the object?

Common sense should make the questions simple to answer. This finished quiz should be on my desk tomorrow morning. Thank you.

(I edited the questions to some degree so hopefully they make more sense)

i think no matter the height launching for more seperation would be better. i'd want as much space as possible between me and the object in case of a 180.

its good your trying to learn more because the question is kinda nutty.
starters 500 ft is pretty tall. second im not really sure why you would even think stepping off verticle would be a good thing unless your worried of getting unstable/ poor body posistion from launching. in that case you shouldnt really be jumping off anything you can have a strike on till you have the ablility to push off with good body posistion.

the past month i was doing a jump off a power tower with a newer jumper when he asked me "how hard should i push off"?
my answer was "pretend your going to be opening up facing the object, how much room would you like to turn the canopy around?"
always be prepared for the 180. facing the approaching wall is no time to come up with a stradegy.

to me other than solid body posistion object sepperation is a close second on the priority list for short delay stuff.

exactly! - both
.02
unless floating - then double gainer

I agree with pushing off hard with the exception of static lines/pca. Pushing off hard on a static line puts you forward of your canopy and makes the whole system look like a pendulum. Stepping off gently puts you directly under the canopy.

 for sure. i was only speaking of freefalling stuff.

if you have a 180 on a sheer object s/l your hitting the object.

The other exception (for pushing of hard other than SL or PCA) is for sub 190 ft freefalls. The pendulum action results in valueable altitude loss, so you want to minimise that by staying upright and minimum forward motion.
Being pendulumed into the ground is no fun, neither is a 180 when you are hugging the object
The trade off is yours to make

I almost knocked a buddy off a tower from launching so hard, I counted, he didn't grab on, shaky shaky!

My argument for exiting more vertical (and I am not talking about back against the wall, just not horizontal launch where you could lower a shoulder or go head low) is that if you do have post opening issues you are setting in the saddle better in a vertical launch able to react. Rather than being swung into the saddle or the swing potentialy accentuating the the problem. Lets face it most of us arent olympic long jumpers here. Your modest five foot horizontal launch probably isnt enough to clear you of a strike in the event of a 180.

The more you launch....the further you will get.....its that simple.
With a healthy delay ...your forward momentum from a healthy launch will give you more separation at opening than at exit.

I dont subscribe to your reasoning for a more vertical launch...Ive seen and had some banger openings where my legs are up by my shoulders....but my hands are always where they should be on those openings and the soft ones...same place everytime..ready to grab toggles/risers and react.

I don't think being 'seated' in the saddle better( from a more vertical launch) is a winner over getting every inch of object separation you can get from a positive launch.

My opinion.

Lower S/L 's and PCA's...can be a different story.

Technical thought, I always leave as if there were an imaginary bar I I trying to grab above the horizon, especially on slider down. Your body doesn't swing as far which reduces snatch force, could help with reaction time. I think to much vertical, maybe deflect the canopy easier if a shoulder is low, possible contribute to off headings, there is arguments for both sides so I say stay in the middle, works for me.

you make some good points on paper but for me id still rather be further from an object than pretty in the saddle closer to it. it really wouldnt matter how good of a reactive posistion your in if you dont have the horizontal clearance to turn the canopy around. 6 inches can be the difference of a close call and hung up. i want every last inch i can get! ive had a couple 180's and been damn glad i pushed off like a olympic swimmer!
as long as your not head low you shouldnt be in a bad posistion to react to an off heading from pushing off hard.

do you think pushing off as hard as possible may have contributed to those 180's? possible improper body position? did a pendulum effect make it worse? or were they packing issues?

(I do NOT want a 180!)

Push off. <== My apologies, that sounds like an insult but really, for the purposes of this thread, it's just a recommendation.

If you need practice, find a suitable object, and push off with all your might until it's comfortable doing so. Places like the Perrine are easy to just drop from. If the opportunity arises to do multiple jumps from such an object. use it for push off practice instead.

One can easily push off like a kangaroo, square off, then toss the pilot chute like a dart (not a hand grenade), all in 1/2 second. I've personally had complete 180s from solid objects with less than a 1 second delay and did not hit the object. I was far enough away to react and miss. I didn't pendulum in either case. ... so far so good...

Choose if you're a riser or toggle grabber and be comfortable taking hold of either one. People have their own views which one to use, and there are times for either one, so be adaptable.

When reaching up in anticipation, rather than reach back over your shoulders like you're trying to grab the monkey on your back ... just fall neutral and squared off, wait a second after the pilot chute toss then put your hands right about where the toggles would be.

When the canopy sets you up, the risers will pretty much place themselves in you hands. If the risers are uneven, (one forward, one back) you can actually feel it and grab whichever control input devices you choose and use them without hesitation.

Funny thing about toggles though ... if you have a 180 and clear the brakes believing the canopy is facing forward and just let it fly... you will hit the building.

Armor seems to help on some occasions.

I agree with what you wrote, except I've never had a 180 when it counted. my wild off-headings have happened on bridges where I really did not make much effort...

obviously, avoidance drills at TF can ensure quick reactions.

I'm more interested in the possible reason for the 180's. typically, people lose body awareness and control the harder they push. the poster seemed to have had several 180's, so I wondered if he had found a common factor.

if pushing off as hard as possible can contribute to 180's, then each jumper must assess which risk is more important to them.

Since you're exiting from 500 feet, push off hard and do a gainer. That way when you time it correctly, the canopy will come off your back while you're belly to earth, but by the time it opens you'll be standing up in YOUR preferred position.

Also, while we may not be olympic long jumpers, pushing off hard and taking a deep delay (especially since you're going from your low 500 foot object) is always better. The longer your delay, the farther your separation. And then when you 180 and wall strike, you'll have less rock to hit while you roll down the side of the cliff.

Pushing off hard doesn't appear to be any cause if you push off square and toss the pc forward. If you manage to get yourself off axis, well, you get what you get. Most of the time it opens close enough to on heading.

Wind matters, body position, a very effective pilot chute thrown out to the side rather than in front, orbiting pilot chute, the way the canopy is placed in the container, how easy it comes out, then random factors...

So who knows... my opinion is get away from the object. If you're reasonably quick and don't over control, missing it is often quite doable.

no i dont. maybe one of them i wasnt totaly squre, but not from pushing off hard just from being tense as a muthafucker.

Tense as a motherfucker will do it.

And it seems to help at least for me, to put my legs together as the canopy is setting me up. It helps to not allow loading one side more than the other. I noticed it more with mid range delays with a slider.

put legs together as the canopy is inflating

I do that skydiving cause I have a 120
loaded at just over 1.8 but it makes
total sense to do it in BASE also.

This really is a stupid debate. It's seems quite obvious that the best exit on a low object is maximum horizontal distance from the object with good body position (pack job between 0 and 45 degrees to relative wind with square shoulders and hips).
If you're worried about your body position when you push as hard as you can, then you should practice, not start walking off low cliffs and buildings.
WTF????

The debate is not about object separation.

If you have maximum horizontal movement on a static line deployment, you will find yourself in a pendulum swing under your canopy, making landing more difficult (and potentially injury causing).

The question is:

Which is more important?

(a) getting every last bit of object separation, which prioritizes avoiding object strike at the possible expense of landing well? or;

(b) putting yourself in the best position to set up the landing with minimal time, at the possible expense of object separation?

You may have decided that creating greater object separation is the strategy you will follow. Other people might decide that because the static line has a very high on-heading rate, and they must land every time they jump, they prefer a softer push (and an instantly landable, non-penduluming canopy).

Just because people make different decisions does not mean that they have bad body position.

This is certainly not a case where everyone agrees on one thing, and any other viewpoint is worthy of a "WTF????"

The OP was not talking about a S/L jump it was simply asked about a sub 500ft. That would be assumed as a freefall. In that case I'd agree with thecount, maximum separation is THE best thing ALWAYS!! If you can't launch as hard as possible without fucking up your body position, go back and practice somewhere like Perrine. However, IF it were a S/L jump your right, but I don't think that's what was asked

I was starting to wonder if we had gotten off track and now we were debating whether 500' was low or not. I set that height to steer away the wingsuiters or the trackers and get feedback from short delayers and yes a static line or pca. The low end is obviously an individual thing. I like the gainer idea since if done correctly it puts you in the saddle and minimizes opening shock or "penduluming". I am not ready for that from the objects I was referring to in this thread. Thanks for the responses.