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all S-I-X of my BAS (no E) jumps have been slider up - so i dont' know what i'm talking about, but . . .
one of my mentors (base # < nickdg -WOW) (second clue - donated exciter rig 4 bd - i helped build it -yeah me . . .)
told me - if there isn't a 'factory' tailgate, the best thing to use is a 'broken' rubberband (not a black one!!) tied in an overhand knot around the same lines & in the same place as a tailgate

that's simple *kiss*
& furthermore, wet tape breaks later (my understanding from reading here on dorkzone)
adhesive side out - attracts dirt & is a chemical in direct contact with gear = sticky gear ewwwwwwwww
2 wraps or 3? hmmmmmmmmmm

why do you use tape? just curious . . .don't care how you rig you *hit
stay 'safe'

I use tape. blue painters trimming tape. 2.5 wraps for SL/go-throw, slider up. 3.5 wraps for deep slider down.

it works for slider up and slider down, the tape comes in handy for other things around climbing/hiking/camping for a jump, I don't get my (good) gear wet, the adhesive has not bothered my rig after over 200 tapegates, I don't have to carry rubber bands, I don't lose a $3 piece of gear now and then, I don't have to remember to take it off for slider up.

Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more tailgate!

All the time, every time!

yes! roflmao

And you guys can't install a tailgate?

I made the mistake of using my blue tailgate tape to do some actual painting a while back. That stuff doesnt work worth a shit, bled right under it. I refuse to refer to it as painters tape anymore. The green auto kind of painters tape, blue is tailgate tape only.

not really a reply to you gooman, just my late night babble...

it will never stop being entertaining watching us debate this way is better than that on matters that arent all that critical. especially when it comes to TAPE! sticky E tape over breakcord, tape vs tail gates, yada yada yada! they all obviously work!
its not like theres a list of fuckers who have gone in over using or not using TAPE!
bottom line use some type of sensible line over prevention weather its a tailgate, blue tape, green tape, tan rubberband or my moms pubes braided to break at 12 lbs of force!!!! who gives a shit. the reasons are usually as facinating as mine. i lost and ran out of tailgates one day and starting using tape. tape worked so i stuck with it. the end.

Dude, people need SOMETHING to argue about, BASE rigs don't have RSL's.

Plus anyone with BASE jumps already KNOWS that

RSL's are only for Students, Tandems & My Dad

well what else can we use tape for?... closing loops? toggles? yea im gonna replace my toggles with 2 rolls of blue tape. not green though that would be stupid!

what about risers...ducktape would be strong enough for that...

of course we could, tailgates are simple rigging, e-z p-z
you're silly! -please don't ban me for 14 days - not a personal attack - just my personal opinion

i think 'everyone would agree' that a factory style 'real' tailgate is best, but the tape tailgate has been mentioned on this board many, many times (& the current "no tailgate" thread made me post)

my opinion is that if you are not using a real tailgate (maybe your tailgate got ripped off & you still wanna jump) a (non-black) rubberband is better than tape

i was looking for enlightenment as to why so many ppl use tape instead of a rubberband
most ppl have rubberbands in there rigging kits

on a side note; how many wraps of electrical tape does one use for s/l jumps?


is that blue painters tape for delicate surfaces (adhesion level: low-medium) or multi-surfaces (adhesion level: medium) ?

i bought the blue stuff at the hardware store cause i like blue. and yeah, it was the stuff in your link. I know nothing of the adhesion properties. but adhesion is not what makes the tape work the way it does.

k, thanks

http://blincmagazine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=266711

http://blincmagazine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=266711

The link above came back with the following message :

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At Kjerag this year I had a tape malfunction on a slider up jump. Upon opening the tape (four wraps) didn't break, keeping the rear of the canopy bowtied for about two seconds. Luckily, after those two seconds, the tape descended the steering lines before stopping about a half meter above the slider.

I landed without incident, though flaring was tricky. On inspection I found that the four layers of tape had effectively melded together. The tape itself was almost as hard as a rock (no exaggeration). I could not physically tear it with my hands and the only way I could remove it was by peeling back each of the layers.

Note that this was regular white masking tape, about 1.5 cm wide. On purchase I'd tested it when wet and it had no problems tearing. However, when I tested it I tried to manually tear just one layer of tape, not four.

My theory: My best guess is that the glue on each layer of tape had managed to seep through the paper, effectively merging four thin layers of tape into one thick, well-glued layer. I think this was a result of the humid Norwegian air in which I'd been packing.

Since that event, I've switched to using a tailgate and small-mesh slider on all slider up jumps. I use a small, brown skydiving rubber band that's been cut in half to secure the tailgate, and I do not use an overhand knot to secure it to the tailgate (effectively I lose the rubber band on every jump).

For slider down I use the same setup (sans slider).

If I ever find myself forced to jump without a tailgate, I'm sure I will use tape again, but I'll be much more careful with it. For slider down I will probably use 2.5 wraps and for slider up I will either jump without tape or will "pinch" the tape around the steering lines, rather than wrapping it (thanks Sparky for this tip).

I still hear "don't worry - the tape will break. it always breaks" all the time. However, just like with a tailgate, there are times when tape can fail. I suggest you be very careful with both, and if you do use tape for slider up jumps, consider pinching one layer of tape around the steering lines rather than wrapping it.

 

thats good info thanks for posting it. how long was the tape/ rig packed up prior to jumping it?
im really suprised the tape slid all the way down the lines. i stand corrected. was the tape stickyside out?

The rig had been packed for a couple of hours (about four hours judging from memory). I packed in a dry, tented area, but it had been raining all morning so the air was pretty humid. The tape had also been stored in a sheltered location and was not wet to the touch when I applied it to the steering lines.

The BASE bus left about a half hour after I finished packing, and I jumped about three hours after getting off the bus, give or take 30 minutes.

The tape was wrapped sticky side in, though I don't think this played a role. I expect the tape would have melded and hardened regardless of whether it was packed sticky side in or out.

I'm lucky the wrapped tape descended the lines - if it hadn't, I'd have landed in a stall somewhere up the talus under 70% of a canopy. The tape's effect on opening was very obvious. For the first 2-3 seconds after opening the canopy actually flew backwards. Observers both on the ground and above thought I'd packed my canopy in deep brakes by accident.

Like I mentioned above - I don't ever plan on wrapping tape again, and will either use a tailgate and a small-mesh slider or will pinch one layer of tape around the steering lines (in a "V" shape, so that the two tails of the "V" adhere to each other).

That's pretty wild. My response to tape breaking and descending down the lines is pretty much debunked now. I seriously didn't buy it.

Was it only around the brake lines or also the C and Ds?

Was it good quality tape?

Can masking tape ever be considered "good quality"?

The tape I was using was run-of-the-mill household masking tape, white, made out of very thin easily tearable paper. The roll was at least three years old (I'd been using the same roll since I started BASE), but other than a little dust on the outside surface of the roll it didn't show any signs of aging or deterioration.

I was using the tape only around the steering lines.

I've always contemplated using tape on the internal C and D lines as well (like with a tailgate), but have never done it. I don't see any benefit in terms of opening characteristics to taping the internal C and D lines along with the steering lines - the chances of a lineover with the internal C and D lines are slim. However, taping the internal C and D lines would increase the forces on the tape on opening and might have prevented this incident.

I expect that taping the internal C and D lines would also increase pressure on the tape to descend the lines in case it doesn't break. In this case, it would be less likely to get hung up on the steering line cascades.

Anybody see any drawbacks to taping the internal C and D lines?

it would be my guess that your last assumption is the exact reason for your malfunction. i would definitely always tape into the inner C and D lines.

Way more force is applied to the tape which is NOT a drawback. Taping only the steering lines is not a good idea as you have now experienced.

Aha! White tape + steering lines only = Black Death

Make loops of white tape, 5-6 layers thick, make it wet, and try to pull it apart with your fingers, sometimes you won't have enough force to break it. Now, try it with the 1" blue painters tape - the force is much lower and more consistent. I did this little experiment a couple of years back and it was very convincing - white tape went to trash immediately. And taping just the steering lines is a bad idea, as the pressure on them alone is relatively light (think about toggle pressure - 6-8lbs each maybe? surely more on opening, but a few layers of white tape can be strong enough)

Blue tape + inner C,D lines and brake lines = Blue Skies

you kids are talking about slider DOWN/OFF tape, correct?

I use 3 wraps on brake lines only for all slider up jumps.

I'm talking slider up and slider down.

sketchball.

i'm saying if i'm going to use tape, i'm going to wrap it like a tailgate... the same way, slider up or down.

tape around just the steering lines has always seemed like a bad idea to me. after inzite's experience, i will continue to think like that.

yeah, fair enough.

3-5 slider up brake line wraps is working for my last 200 jumps, and the last ~1000 of me and everyone I jump with that uses tape.

(slider up jumps, of course)

well, don't get me wrong... i'm not saying what you're doing is unsafe, in fact it's probably much better than nothing 99.9999% of the time.

i just prefer to make sure in my head that if i'm going to use tape, it's GOING to break.

100% agree.

It is real easy to understand if you think of it logically. The force needed to rip the papertape tailgate is two directional when only steering lines are used. Add to it the center C/D lines and the tape is ripped in 4 different directions, not to add with 2 different sets of forces.
OR, to be more visual, how more likely are the steering cascades to be taught vs the D/C lines from the trailing edge of the canopy ?

Why do you say that?

The method I use is not new. I have seen it used around the world. I'm curious why suddenly it's sketchball, especially comparing it to just capturing control lines?

All it's there for in the first place is help keep the lines in back and help encourage expansion from the front to the back. You already know that though.

just a word to say when i don't know what else to say. I should change that to nothing, yeah?

and I wrap Center-C,D,/brakes on only slider down jumps.
I wrap only brakes slider up. the slider provides enough reefing to keep them centered methinks. also have tried the multi-tapegate. with two seperate tapegates on either brake section, allowing full slider inflation before tapgate brakes. not ever haveing any mal on BASE gear other than lines twist after a few hundred jumps, its hard to get good stats.

In retrospect, it seems like on slider up jumps is exactly when those internal C and D lines come in handy. While I agree with you that the slider should provide enough reefing to prevent a lineover of the internal C and D lines on slider up jumps, the pressure on the tape to break is substantially lower due to the staged opening. With the slider taking its precious time to descend the lines, the forces expanding the steering lines are lower, increasing the likelihood of a tailgate or tape malfunction.

By including those C and D lines on slider up jumps, you increase the forces on the tape/tailgate and lower the chances of a malfunction.

On slider down jumps, by including the internal C and D lines you get the added bonus of safeguarding against a lineover from them.

The way I see it, there are several ways to compensate for the reduced forces on slider up jumps:

For tape:
1) Include the internal C and D lines.
2) Use fewer wraps of tape.
3) Pinch the tape in a "V" around the lines instead of wrapping.

For tailgate and small mesh slider:
4) Use fewer wraps of rubberband

If I'm using tape, I'll now always be using option 3 above, and may also use option 1. I also like Yuri's suggestion about using blue tape. I've never seen blue tape before, but will be on the lookout for it the next time I'm in a hardware store.

If I'm using a tailgate and small mesh slider, I'll use option 4.

I use (dry) blue tape, 3 wraps, and really have never worried about or seen it not break. I also use the 'track attack pack' method. (nose around tail/psycho 'rolled, @' fold, as opposed to the 'normal Z' final folds or '&' final folds as per older Warlock containers were taught)

I just use a single wrap of white masking-tape (sticky side in) with a slight overlap on SL-up jumps around my control lines and inner C/D lines.

The objective IMO is for the tail to be held into place throughout pack-opening and line deployment and for a further micro-second to ensure the nose starts to inflate ahead of the tail - preventing a line going around the front of the canopy.

I believe that this can be achieved with one wrap in conjunction with packing techniques that promote nose-first inflation and delay the tail's movement and exposure to the airflow. The better your techniques, the less tape needed to hold the tail in place.

Also, placing the tape sticky-side inward will lessen the chance the tape will "bunch-up" by preventing it's movement along the lines.

More importantly, if one was to place tape sticky side out and the loop of tape is free to move then arguments similar to those put fwd a while back about a free-running loop of beak-cord requiring twice the force to break are applicable here as well.

Also note that if 1x wrap was to bunch-up and fold over on itself it will only produce 2x layers of tape but 5x wraps folded on itself (or twisted once) produced 10x layers. Add a lever effect if the loop of tape is free to move and 5x wraps can become 20.

SL-down I use a tailgate.

g.

So, all these internet posts about how white masking tape is black death got me all paranoid, so I went to Home Depot and bought a $1.79 white tape, and a $3.99 blue tape to test. I would think that Tom A would have plenty of time to do this service for the BASE community, but evidently, he is too busy slamming all sorts of sick objects that we will never hear about.

So, long story short- when laid out side by side, the white tape just feels noticibly inferior. I wrapped it so the it ended where it started around my pointy and middle finger, three wraps thick, and ran it under the faucet for a couple seconds. Then, I used my other finger to try tearing it. As would be expected, the cheap, white masking tape got plasticy, and took some effort to rip. My experience would indicate that it wouldn't be critical, but if it's just around control lines, it could possibly, maybe, somehow, be too "tough". The blue tape just felt like it wasn't the cheapest thing you could buy, peeled way easier, and was generally much nicer. When I wrapped it around my fingers and wet it, it tore much more "paperlike", to the point that it once ripped when I was packing last night.

So, go to Home Depot and try your own tests. It will cost you about $5 and about 15 minutes. From what I saw, I think I am going to use 4-5 wraps of blue tape from now on, both for short slider downs and tall slider ups.

I used to only tape the control lines for slider up, but I think I will go for all the red tailgate friendly lines from now on.

For slider down, I am going to continue with experimenting with the double tailgate system that we have been using in state. Wrapping all the red lines with 3-4 wraps of tape, and then also 1-2 above that, with just the control lines. It might work, it might be unnecessary, but it might control the opening even further.

In closing, it seems that the blue tape is far superior to the cheap white tape. Especially when damp/wet. Try it for yourself, but if you're too lazy, just believe what you've read...

http://www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_3174.JPG
http://www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_3175.JPG
http://www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_3177.JPG

It seems to me that tape, when it works and is applied correctly, works well. But when it doesn't, you can have a really shitty day, and the conditions under which this can happen do not appear to be clearly understood.

How and why did tape suddenly become a "so much better idea" than using the tailgate that is, in most cases, already installed, and has already been well proven in the field? I am well aware that in every BASE manufacturer's manual, it states that the tailgate should never be used with a large mesh slider, because the end(s) of the tailgate could conceivably(?) entangle in the mesh, BUT has this ever been known to happen?

If the centre of the slider is pulled up between the B and C lines in order to fasten it to the direct control elastic attached to one of the C lines, I do not see how this could be an issue since the "U" of the tailgate is touching the slider, with the ends of the tailgate pointing away. As a disclaimer, both of my canopies came standard with fine mesh sliders and I use the tailgate on all of my jumps regardless of slider position.

If they had large mesh sliders, I would carefully inspect the system and try to simulate a tailgate/slider entanglement in my living room to see if it is actually an issue, but I strongly doubt it would be.

Change is good under the right circumstances and for the right reasons, but I get the impression that people are trying to reinvent the wheel by using tape when the failure modes are not clearly understood...

"If the centre of the slider is pulled up between the B and C lines in order to fasten it to the direct control elastic attached to one of the C lines"

I was wandering whether pulling the slider between the lines, inside the tailgate is enough to prevent premature slider descent even without the control elastic on C line? Any ideas?
Thanks

Dude, you are slider up... the slider prevents most chances of lineovers, next thing is to pack right, put the lines in the center and make sure they are all there, and pack in a way that promotes nose first inflation...
Next get yourself a set of WLO toggles. tape and slidergates and all this shit is a waste of time plus it can cause problems. i just had a friend of mine land with a partially inflated canopy because he put a maskingtape tailgate on.. Why do you want to try to reinvent the wheel. If you pack right 99.999999999999% of the time it will be fine, and if it is not fine have a hook knife or WLO toggles to fix it.. It is that easy...

I didn't really take the time to read all posts, but I have used a rubberband half hitched on my inboard right steering line as a reefing system for years(500jumps+). when packing, I make a bight of all my steering lines and rubberband them at this half-hitch. I've used it on every slider up and down jump to reef my tail. I've' compared tailgate openings videoed side by side with what i use and find no difference in tail control... one band that lasts for tens of jumps.. simple and effective. As a matter of fact i have also used it on over than a thousand skydives simply to see what might happen. The tail is delayed and controled just long enough to avoid a line -over. the dreaded malfunction of baser's world wide

I've done 1600 slider up jumps without tailgate / tape without any trouble !
With my friends We have over 5000 slider up this way without any line over ... and it's cheaper without tape :-)

Maybe just packing right is enough ?

Good jumps with or without tape

I’d like to share my experience with papertape.
Set in advance that I am not jumping that much in latest years, and that I used papertape (to contain all the TG line, i.e., 8 control lines + central C and D lines) in my latest 20 terminal jumpes (or so).
Set in advance also that my friend #726 (who has got +2000 jumps of which about 1000 as terminal jumps) has never used (or does not regularly use) papertape to contain control lines + central C-D lines, usually gets very nice openings indeed, in all his wingsuit and non-wingsuit terminal jumps.
What I do in my terminal jump packing is to use about 20 cm (or so) of papertape, containing 8 control lines + central C-D lines (same line as the ones contained in the TG) keeping the non-sticky side on the inner (in touch with lines) and I do a first wrap, as soon as I get it to be self-superimposed, I make a twist so that when papertape continues wrapping, now the sticky part is the inner one and goes to cover the first wrap (outside sticky) of papertape, when the second wrap goes to cover the <twist zone>, I end it up there and cut it where it has arrived (if there is still some papertape to cut).
So, finally, I end up with having 2 ¼ wraps of papertape and no sticky part laying on lines or laying on fabric, no sticky part around.
When there is a bunch of very good BASE jumpers who use no papertape wraps at all on their terminal jumps, I think that having 2 ¼ wraps of papertape + WLO toggles + always-good-packing on my terminal jumps, makes me stay on the safe side of a nearly zero occurrence of lineover.
Just my 0.02 €

Slightly off topic, but is anyone able to say whether line overs are more likely on terminal or sub-terminal slider up jumps?

Doesn't mean anything. 1601st can be "the one", you never know. An extra precaution never hurts. The reality is that a wad of fabric and strings thrown into 200km/h wind is a chaotic event, which has a nonzero chance of malfunction. No matter how neatly you pack, the lines can still be blown all over the place. Tailgate is an effective defense against this.

1 eurocent you spend on a 20cm piece of tape is cheap compared to getting hurt. So, be cheap, just don't too cheap!

All history of parachuting proves that "it worked for me so far" line of thinking is not the one to stick to. "It worked for the whole industry for all its years", maybe, is, and no-tailgate jumps definitely do not belong to this category.

Several meters of tape can be folded onto itself and be stored in a little pocket on the other side of mudflap. Takes seconds to apply.

Your choice.