Basejumper.com - archive

Compared with the last few years, we had a good year so far.
Six fatalities worldwide, six too much, but we all know this is a dangerous sport.
I know there have been three fatalities while skydiving with BASE-gear, somehow related, but they are no BASE-fatalities in my opinion.
The number of jumpers grows, the number of fatalities is more or less stable or goes down for most countries - except switzerland.
So what's wrong with Switzerland?
Four so far, more then ever and the season is not over yet.
Do we have a problem with authorities or media? Not that i know of.
It's getting normal like mountaineering or motorcycle fatalities.
Only a small note in the newspapers.

But we should have a problem with it ourselv.
With all the knowledge, new gear, trackpants, better canopies and so on we should be better than that.
Seems to work in other countries, so why not in Switzerland?
I don't have an answer.

Lets have a look on some numbers...
Some graphic analysis can be found here: http://www.base1007.ch/...atality_Analysis.pdf

Why does the swiss curve look like the Matterhorn????
We already have a Matterhorn, so please help us to make the curve look more like Table Mountain in the future.

Switzerland has about 40 times less citzens then the USA.
With the same rate of fatalities per capita the USA would have had about 800 fatalities so far.
Even worse if you compare the size, the USA is about 238 times bigger then Switzerland.
This would be 4760 Fatalities for the USA....
Per capita only for 2008 this would be 160 fatalities for the USA.
Imagine what would happen if every second day a foreigner would go in somwhere in the USA...

126 fatalities worldwide, 20 in Switzerland that's 16%
Sounds not too bad, but the problem begun in 2001.
19 fatalities since 2001, 71 total that's 26%
This year 4 of 6 in Switzerland, 66% , this is just not acceptable.

From the data we have so far from the registration we know we have about 8000 jumps / year in the Lauterbrunnen valley.
Maybe 10000 jumps in Switzerland.
Is one fatality every 2500 jumps ok? should we just swallow that?
Some numbers from Kjerag: before 2001 it was 1 / 1630, since 2001 it's 1 / 5466
No fatality in seasons 06 / 07 / 08 . Lauterbrunnen area had 10...
Source

The average jumper in the valley has 1500 skydives / 240 BASE-jumps.
If your numbers are significantly lower, maybe you should ask yourself if Lauterbrunnen is the right destination?
But lowtimers are only part of the problem, many victims have been very experienced.

Too many numbers, i'm confused....

I have no ideea how to solve the problem.
But let me assure you, Lauterbrunnen is not Disneyland.
It's the Death Valley.


I should shut up now, i was supposed to be the 5th this year anyway.

Looks like the same fatallity rate we have in Romsdalen! Every 2500 jumps one fattality!

That´s becuase you have in Lauterbrunnen more Base Jumpers than Animals

 
You can't relate those numbers to the local population. People travel there from all over europe and elsewhere. It's a mecca of the sport. Let's talk about Texas. It's been a while sence we've had a death here. Are we that studly good? No, we simply don't have people from all over the world crossing oceans to come here to jump my antena.

You're numbers are running a little high. Not sure why. It probably has to do with the fact that every one knows where you are. The fact that you can catch a train to the exit point and that you have a lawn waiting for you to land on tends to make people froget that the space in between can be rather chalenging. If they had to fight tooth and nail to get to the exit they might see it diffrently but when it's handed to you on a silver platter you take it for granted.

Lee

 

This was more to show how small Switzerland is.


Texas has 16.8 times the size and 3.1 times the population of Switzerland.


It's just unbelievable, such a small country and 26% (since 2001) of the fatalities worldwide.

Base jumping is just popular and trendy ''sport'' and as such it attracting more and more people. Skydiving is now just one ''boring station'' before the BASE.

We are facing following:
-More people than ever getting in to BASE
-Average parachuting skill before first jump is close to terrible (parachuting-not skydiving, because BASE is parachuting, not swooping nor Freefly)
-Hiding behind technology and new equipment does not help when it comes to basic lack of skill or judgment.

Sounds bad but , get use to see more fatalities in the future. It is just simple math.
As the consequence of that, you will see that society ( like the people in the valley) getting used to it as well. Therefore, I do not expect the problems mention here, that LB will be jeopardize from closing....
All risky activities went through such period and with the time become socially accepted.
Hope that BASE will become as well.
We have to preserve minimum level of knowledge jumper have to have before fist jump.
In my opinion there is the problem.
Jumping one type of jumps and than taking the trip to LB with thoughts that there is just easy to jump ( same stands for ITW ) - bring us to those terrible statistics.
In LB one thing is for true sure - That place is nice but there is so easy to die!
safe
Robi

Settle down there dork, since it's your country you figure it out, and don't blanket other countries perceived ignorance for your lack in an ability to find out why ya'll die so much........The, "usually Americans this and "most Americans" that part took all the wind out of your querry. Blanket statements like that are a true sign of ignorance, hmmmm maybe that's your problem.

Ok, cool down. maybe i should say "foreigners" or something? I have nothing against americans.


Yes i know


Not we die so much. 3 swiss jumpers so far.
17 foreigners. Yes, severeal americans.
It's not only our problem.

 
I used Texas as an example because it's where I live and has just a hand full of base jumpers. Setting the size of the state aside the number of jumpers that live here are probable about the same. My point is that we are at the opposit end of the spectrem because we don't have "Disney Land" here in our back yard. A few buildings and a lot of A's. That's it. We are not exactly a major destination. Now let's look at you. Poor baby has to live in one of the most beutifule places on earth. You are a mecca. People do come from all over the world. And the fact that many of the sites are so easily accessed and have such friendly landing areas missleads people in to a false sence of security. No wonder they become complacent.

Hay, how about you come over here and I'll take you to the local cliff. It only takes two days to hike to the exit point but you have to cary a rubber raft along with your camping gear with you when you jump. After you land you still have to get out down the river. But don't worry if you jump in in the right place you'll be below the class 5. It is so worth it though it's over 600 ft, that's a little under 200m for you Euro guys. You can even jump a slider off it! Yahoo!
Yes, I am implying that you're spoiled.

Lee

Robi is right on the money...
'Entry' to BASE is getting easier and easier...
Every new jumper see's the video's , hears the stories and figures the place to be is in The Valley, Kjerag and Brento.
Lots of videos and fireside stories....of how we did this, how we did that etc...its easy to see how us beginners can get sucked in to wanting a 'piece' of that.

Ultimately the survival rules today are no different from yesterday.
BASE is not Skydiving....if you hit a jump with an attitude of
'I think I'll be OK on this one'
( and lets face it...we all have)
Its a case of making an seriously informed judgement before you do it., that should involve analysis of your current skill level, currency, conditions and (related) level of complacency ...

If that's all too easy.....Its all too easy to just say...fuck it, lets go.
Whilst that can also be an admirable quality, in the right time and place....in an enviroment where access to the exit point is easy, encouraged and 'fashionable' in a community ....its a potential(and real) killer.

I heeded warnings about jumping in the Valley , waited until I had what I considered a deal of experience, and got a very visual explanation of how the good times and easy jumps 'can' potentially go bad...when I went unstable on my first jump in the Valley.
When its all good its the easiest place in Europe...but when something's not quite right....that place has the super quick ability to swallow you whole and just leave the bones

I'm a new jumper....but before I even started...I watched the videos , heard the stories and adored the place as a Paradise, and thats just the way you feel when you are there.
....but just because its frequented and provides a tolerated haven for jumpers, it doesnt mean lobs shouldnt be respected as a life threatening activity on each and every jump....
whether you have 50 jumps or 500

I've seen some extremely cool stuff out there.....but more silly stuff....we should all strive not to be in the latter, if not for our own personal safety,
( and lets face it...there's a wide bandwidth of acceptability here...)
then for the continuation of BASE in the Valley.

Hi Moritz,...i undertsand your concerns but there is nothing wrong with switzerland,...
its something wrong with BASE...

LB and the hole swiss is a mekka for BASE jumpers....i think everybody who jumped from fixed objects has jumped in LB,...ist famous, easy access, perfekt for BASE..
the level of experience dropes lower and lower, everybody who "thinks" wingsiut BASE is piece of cake and arieals are easy goes to LB and makes multiways from Moussy...
so its no wonder that by the amount of jumps will be statisticly more incidents and accidents than the "norm"...

LB and many other jumps in swiss are pretty technical,...many people forget this....and there are much more people jumping overall...

and you hear alot like:
"600 meter cliff...wow...thats high"

but impact is after 5-6 seconds....its not kjerak...

you know this all,....
i can imagine how you feel when you take a look in your backyard....but you are living in a high traffic zone...

take care...

I think the reasons are simple:

1) People take with them the attitude that they are jumping big terminal cliffs. They are not. The cliffs in LB should be treated and respected as subterminal. What is reasonable at Kjerag off exit 6 is not necessarily reasonable from any of the exits in the valley

2) Access is good and you can jump lots. Feeds into (1) a little, but also familiarity breeds contempt, and the currency people can build whilst there can stop people being realistic. Think about what happens at TF in Idaho - but at least that object is a bridge over water - and that fact has probably saved a few people.

My opinion is that there's only 3 "safe" slider up jumps in the valley, provided you have the level required for each of them.

There are a lot of other jumps and other potential exitpoints, but they're all falling into the "modern hardcore" category.

Maybe we might considering putting some "skills needed - engagement" information on each exitpoint and at the horner?

It would be more serious and permanent in every jumper's mind than people's advice, and maybe helping to fight against group effects like "a 4 way from the nose? yeah i'm in let's do it right now!"..



It could be something like (you can discuss the numbers, it's just based on personal experience..):



Yellow :
- 15 basejumps minimum
- 5 subterminal recommended


La Mousse :
- 25 subterminal basejumps minimum
- tracking skills needed
- strong push recommended


The Nose :
- 50 subterminal basejumps minimum
- GOOD tracking skills are required


Others :
- unsafe jump - very experienced jumpers only
- 200 jumps mini

it's been a long time since I skiied, but I remember signs at the top of a slope that graded the hill.

rock climbers grade their routes.

maybe jumpers ought to create a similar system for the various exit points.

About time we get back to this......

I have felt for a long time this has been needed.

I would also like to see all 6 fatalities side-by-side to compare:
- experience
- exit point
- gear
- details of incident
- overall weather conditions

- WHAT THE OF MANEUVER THE JUMPER WAS ENGAGED IN


I think you can relate the issues correctly only once you do that. until then, it just sounds like each incident is the same. When an incident with a jumper with 5 base jumps doing gainers off a cliff, is a WORLD difference than a jumper with 500 base jumps trying the same move.

It would be a good thing to have.
it's not easy to find a system who includes the severeal factors an is still understandable.
i remember seeing an attempt like this on a norwegian website, but did not find it again.
it never had many jumps in it, but it was a good ideea.

iirc it was had severeal levels for following categories:

-access - easy - short walk to very hard - very long, lots of gear needed, illegal...

-opening sector - easy 360° (bridge) to very hard -0°, jumping in an elevator shaft

-landing - easy - student field with outs to very hard -very small boulderfield in the middle of tall trees with no outs.

rest i don't remember but we should include

-rockdrop - easy - more then 15 seconds to very hard - less then 4 seconds

-freefall skills - easy - minimal skills needed (PCA S) to very hard - very underhung E

-

-

What about something to the way 'they' designate chemicals. iirc its an internationally recognized symbol involving 4 small diamonds to make one larger one. in each of the smaller one has a color and number designating what is the danger and that particular danger threat. chemists please step in, I dont have time to do the research.

I'd prefer a simpler system. the more complex, the more arguments. then as gear develops, folks might challenge a rating.

I was thinking along the lines of...
green circle - beginner friendly
blue square - intermediate/spme specialized equipment
black diamond - advanced
red stop sign - suicide

it would serve as a general warning, not a specific one.

Your idea of grading objects is a perfectly logical.

For some reason, I envision a 100 jumpers standing in line at the stop sign once it has been named and a batch of MTV folks attempting ten fold gainers off the green.

I agree with you that it would be good advice to grade objects. How that advice is interpreted will most likely not follow logic.

Honestly, I believe the answer is written in your sig line. They are words to live by.

Baz

I think some data is needed to help the jumper understand. For an example, a chart of how over or how underhung the exit point at different delays.

What is suicide for someone, might be easy for someone else. And what I can do in a wingsuit, maybe others can do in tracking pants. A conscientious jumper would use the data to understand the difficulty level. Plus a lot of BASE jumpers are nerds and like to process data, but also like to buck the system, so black diamond might be inviting as a "challenge."

I have only been to the valley once... and I decided not to jump. Although I was possibly deemed experienced enough for the valley (150 jumps), all my jumps except a couple from Kjerag have been slider down and I had not skydived (thus tracked) for 6 years. I watched some jumping and decided that the cliffs were not a good idea for me. I always approached an object with the question "What will my entry say should I go in on this jump?"... my answer to the Valley and this question was "..Having no experience on sub-terminal slider up cliffs, and not having tracked for 5+ years...."... it would be a fucking embarrassing entry on the list in my eyes…..

The people I was with agreed with my decision (one of which is now dead), a Swiss chap I met said "I wished more people thought about this place like that"... and another bunch I met thought I was being over cautious (they were low jump numbered jumpers)..

I have now retired from BASE having not ever jumped in the Valley, but you know what, I have zero regret about that. I am alive and well (apart from bits of metal from a previous accident) and fully enjoying other activities I am currently progressing with. In a word, I am not dead with an embarrassing entry on the list, so my choice in my eyes was the correct one.

I think the issue lies with attitude and risk assessment skills. Travelling to different countries does not mean you HAVE to jump; your risk assessment should determine this. Having a solid teacher/mentor/group, which has a good solid approach to BASE should in fact lower the rate of needless accidents.

The Valley is not the most dangerous place to jump (as some journo recently is asking), it’s that some people have dangerously bad risk assessment skills.

Pushing yourself and the sport, does not mean the lack of risk assessment.

…but what do I know….. I don’t jump anymore…

data is good. I thought the locals in the valley already have tried to share much. (I have yet to visit.)

hopefully, a grading system would help some choose exit points a bit more responsibly. it would show to the non-jumping locals that we as a group care. heck, generally locals attempt to direct people to appropriate exits already. this would just help formalize the process.

all this information should be made available for planning at some common site. at the exit point, a sign reminding of the grade might serve as a final, cautionary note. (the exit point is a bad place to begin planning.)

yes, many will throw caution to the wind and ignore advice. aren't they doing that already?

"Having a solid teacher/mentor/group, which has a good solid approach to BASE should in fact lower the rate of needless accidents."

I cannot agree with you more on this statement........however what is happening more and more today (at least in the US) is PEOPLE (not even skydivers yet) are seeing soooooo much exposure and attention to BASE on TV, internet, mag./newspapers, etc. They look at this and say "holy shit, I HAVE to try that". So what do they do, take AFF, put in 50 jumps with every jump being a "practice" BASE jump (yeah right ), then take a FJC at the bridge........after 30 or 40 jumps over a couple trips to Mr. P they think "I have to head over to Europe and jump some of those big walls I saw on YouTube".

They may or may not have picked up a "solid teacher/mentor/group" along the way. Just look at how many posts there have been lately about people looking for a "mentor" in their local area. Whatever happened to just hanging around the sport of skydiving long enough, making friends, talking to people, and building respect with the "locals". Yes, it takes time, but fuck it seems those times are long gone.

We can put up signs, make rules, sign waviers, etc., etc. but the fact of the matter is, people are approaching BASE in a much LESS cautious way so more and more people will continue to die.......period.

What to do about it?.........seems to me this is something that is VERY hard to control and/or regulate.

I do not BASE jump but I think this can be done like it is done in freeclimbing: Those who climbed it proposes a rating. Those who climb it later comfirm or proposes how he would rate it.

By this new routes get their level after 30 climbers climbing it. All factors are included - 'easy to climb but long' might have the same level as a tour that is hard to climb but short. You still have to inform yourself about the route you climb but the rating is a good indicator to show if it is worth thinking about it.

The rockclimbing quotation system is probably the best system.

It is a simple solution for having an overall idea of a complex problem, and to evaluate the difficulty relatively to your skills.

Of course it is not precise enough to describe a jump, since many different variable are present, like tracking, difficulty to access the exit or landing particularities.

But the description of the jumps or the advice from other people are here for knowing more details on a jump that someone consider.

The climbing system puts a number to the overall difficulty of the route. It's an open system, and the "maximal difficulty ever" can always be expanded to higher level.

The good point is that you're note fooled with a "50 jumps needed? I have 30 but i learn quickly, it should be ok" attitude. The grading system is directly relative to your personal skills.



For me in rock climbing it goes like (european system):

grade 3 : "For everyone"
I can do it in baskets.

grade 4 : "Beginner"
No worries, i can take pictures while climbing

grade 5 : "Intermediate"
There's going to be interesting problems during the way, but i can manage them all without putting myself in a bad situation. I will check the particularities of the route before starting.

grade 6 : "Advanced"
Going near my skills limit, I have to check the particular details with other people, and evaluate it. Reading the way and different options before going on it is necessary. I consider failing and have to be able to rappel down.

grade 7 : "Expert"
I know I cannot make it to the top. I can try some moves if someone puts the rope first. But I know i will have to give up during the way.

grade 8,9 : "Mutant"



Then you have subdivisions in each grade ie: 5a, 5b, 5c or simply 5 and 5+. It's useful to compare two similar jumps but with a slight difference, or when you get near your skills limit.


We can use it as a starter for rating the basejumps. Since many basejumpers are also rockclimbers, it's going to be easy to have the same "evaluation margins" everywhere.
The first persone to jump propose a grade. The following confirm or correct it.



Here's a proposition:


grade 3: "For everyone"
Plane jumps. High baloon jumps. High heli jumps.
With BASE specific gear.


grade 4: "Beginner"
ITW
Potato Bridge
Whatever easy standalone antenna


grade 5: "Intermediate"
Yellow Ocean
Antenna with guy wires
Kuala Lumpur Towers
La Mousse (5+ with a running exit)

grade 6: "Advanced"
The Nose
The Mushroom (6+ because of access and mountain dangers)


grade 7: "Expert"
Ultimate..?





Then we can in a detailed description, just like in rockclimbing, rate each part of the jump and add specific information about difficulties :



ITW: grade 4 overall, easy jump suitable for beginners (minimum 15 base jumps). Strong valley winds might rise quickly. Easy grassy landing area (open high to be able to outfly the forest). Access to exitpoint might be icy and dangerous in winter (gear up on the trail). Please read the rules on the Italian Base Ass. website.

6 to 8 second : grade 4
>8 seconds: grade 5, tracking skills needed to outfly the talus



The goal is not to edit a book with location of the jumps. Just too keep a list of jumps difficulties so everyone could have an idea about level of the jump VS his own skills.

And to avoid disasters like the last one in Switzerland...

ok, guys, please do me a favor and don´t bring the worst part of rock climbing to base, the quotation system.
first, it does´nt really work in climbing either, a 8 in one valley is a 6 in another valley. so whenever i talk to a climber i didn´t know before i want to hear *where* hes climbing what grade.
second, there some strange trend in climbing, so the 8graders don´t talk to the 6graders, and the 9graders dont talk at all. reminds me a little bit of school...
third, you don´t really think its possible to describe a jump with one digit? thats ridiculous.

thats why climbing sucks, and why i hope that no one brings some kind of f*ed up rating system to base.

just stick on providing as much as possible information on objects.

i got my 50 jumps now, im quit stupid, but reading the other thread (about the exit) is enough for me to tell that this jump is not for me, and it will stay that way for a long time.
and the guys that are not distracted jumping that exit by that thread or the fatality, would be convinced by a red "8" painted on a stone near the exit?

i think it would make things worse, since at the moment its just a f*ed up positive exit which is quit hard to do. if you rate it its an 8 (whoa an 8!) so i think you are inviting a lot of guys.
"well if im in the valley for vacation, i should do at least one 8 to tell all my friends at home"
it would become a challange, if you climb you want to get better and climb higher grades. don´t compare base to climbing, this is no challange.

take care,
hershey

good idea,...and makes sense....
but who will control that everybody "use" this system?
we are a wild bunch of hard to control people...
qiute often i tell somebody that he has not the right skill for a particular site...and what should you do when he says:" its not your buissnes,...i can handle it..."
common sense is NOT working in BASE....

I'd welcome that sort of system as well, but it is a community decision.

personally, I like the symplistic color system. your proposal actually sounds better for those technically inclined. it might not be understandable to those who get all pumped up on videos and head out to a cliff.

i.e. I don't think a grading system is needed for contemplative folks. it is needed for newbies who may not be able to discern your proposal's subtleties.

As far as I can tell the only thing wrong with
Switzerland is that it's not closer to my house.
People die every day, don't worry about it.

What you can do is: Make a meeting point where all the jumpers have access to information, insurance, and guidelines about the Valley! After reading the information and guidelines they have to check in and sign their waiver to get a license for the season to jump in the valley! This license make the heli insurance valid!

One of the reasons should be to prove for the authorities you are doing something about the problem with so many incidents, and accidents in the valley! The other reason should be to educate the jumpers, also keep the good will from the locals!

So I guess you don't talk to people with less than 25 jumps or with more than 100 because you have 50? Maybe it's just personal ;)



yes or the classic skills levels as
beginner, intermediate, advanced, expert, guru
it's clear enough by itself.



I'm not sure a waiver will be taken more seriously by the jumpers, but it's a good concept. Simply having the information clearly displayed and available for every jumper at the Horner will already be a great step forward.
The fact is that any beginner can engage a chat with some other experienced jumpers and just follow them to a new jump without having a clear objective idea of the real difficulty. Just because the beginners referential is totally different than the experienced referential.

Any beginner can find any exit and jump off if they want! Next year we will try to have a specific house (camping, showers meeting point for climbers, and kayakers as well) in Romsdalen where they will find maps, information and guidelines for the Valley! We will not copy or try to regulate jumping like Kjerag! Romsdalen will still be the place for Experienced jumpers!

One accident pr 2 500 jumps is to much, and can be avoid if we work toghether! Heavily jumped places like the Valley, surten legal bridges, and areas like RD should be taken better care off since the locals is being the ones who suffer! To often there is coming jumpers from other places and act like idiots (thinks they are the coolest gays on earth), party heavy, driving like they stole the car, and jump like it is their last day! After last accident in Troll we had the worst media show ever! It was a 24 hour rescue, use of alot of resources, and alot of angry people! We do not need that attention when we do know all of the accidents can be avoided! Their is no new braking ground to die for! The most extreme is already done!

The 29 people I was friends with, knew, or had met personally which died base jumping, there is only two accidents that can rely to be a real mishap! Even those two could have been avoided if one did not use a hackey sack for pilot chute handle, and the other one maybe should have packed a bit better, and had a better body controll during the opening, but these are just speculations!

It is not far from being a hero to be an idiot when you play the game!

 
If there are problems with the rateing systems for climbing it's because what they are trying to do is difficult. It's hard to compress a route into a one line entery much less a couple of digits. And this is setting aside the whole issue of trying to get people to agree on it. That's why there are full blown topos of routes. Just because it's not perfect doesn't mean it can't be of value.

I've only been to LB once. I was there for more then a week alone just pokeing around on the cliffs finding exit points by my self. I didn't even see another base jumper till the evening before I had to leave. It was about ten years ago and not as bussy then. When I left I made a point of leaveing behind a map with the exit points I'd jumped in case another traveler showed up and was as lost as I was.

I think a central keosk or info site would be of great help to people. I certinly would have apreceated it. I don't see why there couldn't be full "topo's" there, maps, and a small sign with the name and grade at each standard exit point so you can be certin where you are.

I know you can't beleave I'm saying this. It sounds like the rides at dissiny land with the little signs of you must be this tall to ride. But no shit that's where you are at. It would be nice to say every one should have the knowlage and skill to evaluate sites on there own and make there own decisions. I am totaly cool with that, but you asked what can be done about the death rate and in perticular the issue of young jumpers in over there head. Well if people are going there to learn then this is a school. In a school you can have a higher degree of instruction and for lack of better terms training wheels. In class the teacher may give the student certin elements of the problem to help them get started. What's the percentage in haveing all of these young jumpers out there trying to reinvent the wheel and redescuver these sites on there own.

I mean is any one really surprised that there have been deaths? Now they can disregard this kind of infomation. You don't have any control over that but what is the harm in provideing it?

Lee

Easy on the exclamation marks man, when I read your posts I feel like I'm in a screaming match...

THIS IS SCREAMING ;-) only made my points!

Using a grading system - No!

Don't over complicate it!

Just list the dead at each each point, should focus the mind and let natural selection do the rest. (I just hope it's not me!)

Possible suggest certain suitable conditions and minimum skillset if you really need to, but surely they'll get ignored anyway!

Pete Mac