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Not exact wording but more or less what the news article says:
A 20 year old got unstable after exit from Mürrenfluh (Stechelberg) and hit the wall continuously under open canopy.
He was jumping with a group of friends

Sad news....

I propose to close the valley for a while. We did that a few years ago. I thought it was a good thing that time.


Also to remember these guys...

fly free bruva

I suggest to close everything! I can' hear that closing-shit anymore.

Condolences to the family and friends.

Greets Pascal

closing down this valley won`t solve anything...people will jump it anyway..the trollwall is a good example of that..
This has been a terrible month...
Stay warm..

sad news, that is.
my condolences to family and friends.
nevertheless i consider closing the valley an utterly senseless idea. that would make things worse.

i totally agree

First my deepest condolences to the relatives and friends of the deceased jumper.

Secondly. I think there are few different paths for continuing jumping in LB.

1. Educating people jumping there by giving more truthful information about the jumps, the wall profiles and weather conditions and the landing areas there. This has been done, but I would love to see the information (the drawings and their explanation) published here also at the Horners, and at the exit point of each jump. This also includes sensible self regulation and caring about other jumpers. Possibly it may include difficult conversations.

2. Trying to somehow formally regulate the jumping for example the way they do it at the terminal wall in Norway. I can't see it happening because of the multiple exits and landings and most of all, nobody really wanting it.

3. Waiting for the officials say NO, eventually they may do it. And then jump illegally as they do it at Trollwall, with given consequencies.

I would vote for the first option, as a momentarily stop in jumping solves nothing, only postpones development of safe jumping in LB.

Vesa

 
I agree with Toni.

IMO a short break would give everyone a moment to reflect on jumping in this spectacular and unique valley.

A significant part of global BASE jumping activity occurs in the valley, many thousands of jumps each year.

Mob mentality, easy access, the sub terminal positive walls all combine to make the modern valley what it is.

LB, take a train, do a multi way, pack and go for another ride... LB feels too much like Disney Land sometimes.

I'm also with Toni and James. If you have not booked your trip yet, pls do not come to LB. People in LB are very BASE friendly but there tolorance has its limits.

I guess everything has its limit.

Im not sure what would be the best thing to do. We can't close it totally... unless we illegalize it. And this would not stop the jumpers to come and to jump, only to take higher risks in bas light and to do everything in a few jumps before they go to the next place.

The mountain gives and the mountain takes. Just like in skiing.

Though Im totally with Michi, but to say that let teh vally rest a bit, let teh local people rest. Everything will get back to normal soon. Its not about closing the valley its about taking everythng a bit more calm, maybe not do that multiway on your back with wingsuits etc.

WHen it comes to educate jumpers , its not about lack of skills, its not about that they cant see the underhung walls. People are like lemmings. we will follow other idiots on stupid shit. If you come to the valley for a month you might start of really easy and calm from yellow ocean or something. You will talk about your smart choice to jump carefully and something you can handle. one week later you are testing you first proximity wing suit jump from the nose.

Its impossible to stop. Most jumpers will feal that they are ok with taking the risk after one week, jst because some other guys do it. Its like a party... with a tequila race.

The Swiss Valley IS disneyland and will always be. The situation in Troll Wall is mostly controled by the long hikes and tje distance to travel. But its becoming disneyland as well.

acording to scientific studys in BASE-fatalitys, 99% of the acidents can be related to human factors.
We dont think, there fore we die.

take it easy now people and remember , Always play 80% of your skills. Never try for 100%, then you have nothing left.

Agree with all that. LB isn't suitable for a lot of the stuff that people do there (in the way exit 6 from Kjerag can be suitable, for example).

The reality is that we're coming to the end of the season, and the jumping will wind down anyway - as it did last year - only to pause and come back again next year, when the summer of 2009 will see the same level of traffic - and sillyness - at its height ...

(general observation, rather than my feelings about any recent accidents)

such a young man.....my condolences to his family!


as a side note, i am happy to be alive after yesterday. (close call)

Very sad

If my informations are correct, this incident happened from "Ultimate" , one of the "new" exitpoints in Stechelberg.

I don't know if it's in any way related to this incident, i was not there.
But please read what i wrote about this exitpoint here: http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Does anyone know if this was a w/s jump, or did the young man try and out track the ledge?

Condolences to family and friends.

The jumper flew a wing suit, from what I heard. He was not happy with the exit point. Reppelling and the way you have to stand on the exit. Also to jump above the positive part of the wall.

I wasnt there but got a second hand info, so dont take it to accurate.

From what I heard he failed to do a good exit and got unstable, but again, I wasnt there.

It is a scary exit and demanding. Especially with a wing suit with booties, its a scary place to be. Absoultley for the experienced and also not easely scared jumpers.

I thought this was an incident forum and posting. I don't care to well wish a here. That does not seem the point that will help any jumper in the world at all. Will just wast posting space.

The reason I am ranting as I am, and being very cold, is that we only care to give cool slogans, when we have a serious issue. The lack of concern with true skill, and merit in our actions.

Who is the hell is this BOY's instructor? Mentor? How many jumps did he have? Why was he unstable? What happened during deployment that made him hit the wall?

Where are the real answers that can actually help everyone figure out WHY this crap keeps happening?

I agree wholeheartedly. Posting a-la Leroy of "condolences" don't do shit to educate the masses and prevent future fatalities.

The Valley is a great place, but too many people think it's great for a weeklong huck-a-thon like the Perrine. Cliffs are no place for beginners, and subterminal cliffs require even more skill.

Why does everyone think there has to be some concrete explanation for every death? BASE JUMPING IS DANGEROUS. Just as with other high risk activities, people will die regularly. Everyone needs to be more accepting of that reality with themselves and especially with people they are bringing into this activity. Don't just show your friends cool videos and get them hyped, talk to them about smashed jaws, compressed vertebra, compound tib-fibs and sudden death. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM. Like Martin said, most people die because they make a mistake. We all make mistakes, even the most solid, conservative jumpers.

The number of jumpers is increasing exponentially every year, so doesn't it make sense that numbers of fatalities are doing the same thing? There isn't some sort pandemic of skill-less jumping, it's just mathematical reality. Air Glaciers logged over 10k phone calls from jumpers last year. Think about that and compare that with the number of deaths. I am not cold, and I am not hard and fearless. I cry when my friends die and jumping still scares the shit out of me.

BXC

Pls wait a bit, I hope that one of the people who has been on the jump with the jung man will post here.
But pls go a bit up and see the post of Moritz (BASE1007) and click on the link. There you can see why you can easy be unstable after exit. And if you then get into panic and decide to pull it will be a 3 or 4 second slider up jump which is never a good idea on a cliff.
From what I heard (only second hand information) the jumper should have NEVER EVER been on that exit with his experience.

your post made some good points, but in answer to:

THIS FORUM is described as such:

i.e. the whole reason for this particular forum is to SEEK "concrete explanations."

OK, fair enough. I don't really believe that's possible, so I guess I will continue to stay out of here.

Viel Spass.

B

There is a reason for EVERYTHING! The reason might be "rare-ified air molecules", but I am wiling to be there is something concrete to blame.

It could be that someone had the bright idea that a cliff is for beginners... which IMHO is F***ING stupid! Then combine that with a 3 second slider up..... That is concrete! Not just blind "it is dangerous".

And for those waiting for the persons involved to write here, in my experience, those instructors that have incidents like this happen, rarely chime in.... Wonder why ;-)

Is this an account of this particular situation or your guess?

The exit is very technical and I wasn't there, though I had just landed when the copter came to pick him up. It was a combination of factors as I understand it the pitching was probably just a last ditch effort to save him self. I never got a number on his experience but it didn't sound like enough.

hello,
i was on the jump with simon when he went in and i was the first one to the body.
of course looking back he probably shouldnt have jumped it. but we have all had jumps like that. he had relitively low experience. the jumps i did with him i did not notice any thing wrong with how he flew, he was safe and conservative and i have other who say the same. so much so that i didnt give a second thought when he came along on that jump. he had no ego and was doing good safe jumps so i had no reason to say anything and as i said didnt even give it a second thought. even though i dont think it is a wingsuit jump he had an s fly on which is one of the easier ones to launch and the newer exit point is 2 feet closer to the edge than the old one so it is not that big of a launch. there is not much else to say, its sux that another person has died but it has happened. in my opinion the jump is a tracking jump. the repel down and the first 2 seconds of freefall are extremely intense and intimidating and you need to have your serious head on everytime. it is an actual big wall unlike the rest of the jumps in the valley. i am tracking hard right after exit and can easily make it over the big tree ledges. if you track staright you should be in the paddock with nothing to worry about except for the powerlines. it is an all time jump and i hope it does not get closed down. i myself am paragliding now and that is the biggest concern. you need total awareness about looking out for the paragliders, especially the tandems as this is their income and than can easily shut jumping down. most of the time you will be on the same cable car as them. we had no incidents with the paragliders in the 10 days i was jumping this wall and there were plenty of paragliders. if you see one, let it land before you jump. just like the helicopters-give way.
i will say this. jump this cliff with a tracking suit and be able to actually track. not a lauterbrunnen im a base jumper track.
i rarely read the dorkzone so if any one would like to speak more to me email me on douggs@basedreams.com
be safe
douggs

No, I have just seen countless mentors kill/injure countless students in the pursuit of looking cool by training someone.

I have only trained 2 jumpers in my whole life, and each one of them followed me for 12-14 months before their 1st jump. I am proud of both of them, and no injuries where ever incurred....

Of course, there was NO glory for me to show off, as each one was low profile... names and objects still remain with me and them....

I guess I am just not that cool..... ;)

Duggs, I have met you in the past, and can say from my limited experience with you, your skills are advanced. Thus, you have many advanced jumps world-wide.

But So did Dwain W. Before Dwain killed himself, he killed MANY jumpers along side him. WHY?????? because he FAILED to instill his responsibility to the people who looked up to him. Thus, they followed him based on attitude, not knowledge and precaution. If you look cool and calm, at a jump, that does not mean a student is.

If you do NOT make POSITIVE they understand that you do not feel they are able to make a jump based on general knowledge then they will follow blindly. You re at fault.

So if I was to make a jump from a cliff, and I KNOW, I have spent years practicing my tracking on a BASE JUMP (f*** skydiving), then how would I ever expect a low time jumper to do the same?

WELL GUESS HOW????? you opt NOT to give your options VERBALLY to that jumper, and you let EGO take control, and watch the wheel turn....

Students have fear, and they look to the mentors to total guidance. If you show them something they are not prepared for, they assume your are telling hem the truth and will follow suit.

http://www.blincmagazine.com/..._Long_Not_Hard.shtml

Mick,

you are way out of line here.

Douggs never said he suggested the jump our taught this guy or anything,he just said he was on the load. he also suggested that any further discussion be made via email. you go and start pointing the finger and typing the sentence: "you are at fault." to Douggs, and "dwain killed many" these sound like murder/ manslaughter accusations. Not to mention your lecture some high horse tone/ attitude. Way out of line.

You have absolutely nothing to with this. People make their own decisions.

jt

No need to start bashing.

How far does the responsability for a mentor to a student goes? Especially, when the first thing you read when you go the home page of this site is:

BASE Jumping
BASE jumping is a highly dangerous sport that can easily injure and kill participants. Think long and hard before making a BASE jump. We do not recommend BASE jumping to anybody. You, and you alone, are responsible for your safety.

Of course, you need guidance when you start, but some day, you alone decide to jump. And another thing, mentors die too.....

Ronald

JT,

I totally agree on all you have said!

Regards,
Bernhard
--

"People make their own decisions."

Exactly. I think, also, it's wrong to throw around all this "killed themselves" and "killed many". What Dwain did was crazy, sure, but it is a matter of opinion. Just as someone could say ANYONE who dies BASE jumping "killed themselves" you are saying it about something that you view as "crazy".

Don't worry Douggs.....Mick tried to blame me for Brian Schubert's Bridge Day 2006 death, even though Jean Boenish and Johnny Utah trained him. Although Jean pointed fingers at others and Johnny disappeared off the radar, no one was responsible for Brian's death except for Brian.

BASE is not table tennis! It is not AFF jump either, so even if ''mentor'' train the jumper 100% , outcome can end like that case above.

More and more people coming in to the sport and according to statistics, more will die!

It is so simple!
The statement like Mick said, could stand if the ''mentor'' bring the 1st jump student to exit such ''ultimate'', while that was no case - micks statement is totally wrong!

Guys get use to the fact that we will see more and more people dieing in this ''sport''. Luckily, society already getting use to this as well which help us to keep jumping legal....
BASE is trendy, base is cool, places were u can jump pooping up more than ever before.. people getting in to the sport younger, with no parachuting skill at all... they taking that ''sport'' as show off activity.

cheers R

See, Maggot was ahead of his time!

I should shut up, his English is better than my Croatian will ever be.

Then every experienced or just a gorgeous jumper on this planet is responsible for somebody`s death... blah!...

" BASE is not table tennis! It is not AFF jump either, so even if ''mentor'' train the jumper 100% , outcome can end like that case above. "
-
WHAT ??? You DON'T get a sport coach like learning Table Tennis. No sudden death playoffs for a tied score ???
Good Post Robi, Totally agree. Everybody wants to be a fucking BASE a jumper. I can't blame them though. It's pretty fucking good when all is going well. BASE jumping is so gloriously fantastical when totally emersed in it's lust I am at a lose of how to verbally describe how great it is feels. but You want to learn to play the game of BASE jumping then be prepared to possibly Die. BASE jumping is a game where in learning it. Even though you have guidance and possibly someone giving knowledge to teach you life support for jump survival. (IMHO) For anyone starting out in BASE. Getting over your head with what you know is inevitable for all. It happens to everyone. 'You WILL' get sucked-in to 'Many' jumps that are over your skill range. That is BASE. That what happens and there is no way around it. Most make good of it but a few loose.
I don't think there is any way around it from happening. It's a double edged sword. On one hand, If your BASE jumping then your pushing up on your learning curve to gain skills and BASE knowledge. On the other hand you don't know what your limits are until you push-it. You can't gain Jump Knowledge unless you Actually Jump and then process your mistakes and achievements of the jump. Learning to BASE jump is a struggle for Your Survival on every jump. It's fucked-up that way but that's just the way it is.
.

Hey Neil,
He was doing a WS jump. The exit point is sloping positive for about 6m after exit, then another small bulge. The 'Camels Hoof' with the 'Camels Toe' underneath. It is 2300ft, a proper terminal wall. I only tracked it because of the exit, but we had some very good WS pilots there who were cool with the challenging exit and having long flights.

Just to add to the credible info surrounding this incident...

I was also on the load, and I can assure everyone that everyone jumping including Simon was well aware of the added "pressures" of jumping the Ultimate. Warnings were expressed to and from all the jumper and Simon made his decisions of his own mind. He was keenly aware that jumping a WS from this site would add to the factors weighing against him but he chose to do it regardless (I did not, this one one of only 2 jumps without my suit during this trip) Simon was also aware of that, and why I chose to go with out it.

I witnessed his exit from inches away. I can simply say that he was confident at the exit, if not 100% (who is on a new site?) he was close too it. We exchanged words of concern, laughed at our insecurities and accepted that what we (he) were (was) undertaking as a dangerous and risky proposition at best.

He pushed off strongly and assertively, probably too much as he started to pitch head-low fairly quickly and followed it with a swimming left leg and scooping left arm. As he started to disappear out of view I strained forward in an attempt to determine if the exit would lean to the side of luck or fate... Obviously we all know the result.

There was no "flight" or "canopy ride", I couldn't hear or see the opening. "Shit I think he just went in!"
At this point when you find yourself standing on a narrow ledge below a long repel and above what is always and inevitably the unknown, you have to ask yourself. Why am I here?

Is it because I like to scare myself?

Or is it because I like the prospect of toying with death?

Or am I here because this is one of the most magical, freeing, terrifying, compelling, real and "NOW" ways of living that I have ever been lucky enough to discover, enjoy and let give flight to my soul.

Simon was no different then any of us.

He simply botched an exit (we've all done that) at a time when that wasn't the thing to do. (a lot of us have done that too)

During lunch over bratwursts, about an hour before this all came to be, we sat privately discussing the rule of the 3 crosses XXX or Green, Yellow, Red whichever you prefer. The rule is well know and simple...

1 thing against you X (green)-you'll "probably" be fine.
2 things against you XX (yellow)-your upping the odds against yourself
3 things against you XXX (red)- something unwanted/unplanned will definitely happen

Simon was as comfortable with his odds when he stood on the exit as when he got in his car to drive to the valley in the first place. Otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

BASE is dangerous, that is one of many reasons it attracts us. There is no blame to be placed here, only lessons to be learned, and warnings to be heeded.

With that said, good luck, if your gonna jump, your gonna need it.

Fate is inevitable

Flyfree

Jay

with 20 years everyone thinks they are indestructible.
i did. you did. he did.
no matter how confident you are with the "odds", if you are not experienced enough someone should step in and say don't, dumb idea.
because when things go bad, 30 wingsuit skydives and 70 base jumps is simply not enough.
no matter how cool and well aware you are before things go south.
knowing the risks does not change one thing about the problem solving capabilities one needs.

I´m 100% in that what Nico wrote...

If there is a high technical exit/jump you should be experienced enough to go there. That means for me to be sure that you can handle youre stress or scare! Especially on a new one you should be able to have your self under control. And it is better to know this before you repell down and have no other possibility than to jump...of course we all did lots of shitty exits but we do it on an exit where it can happen and be handled!...or we have just lots of luck....

But what all here like to say is, that the ultimate is maybe not a jump wich should be done from people with less experience. Anyways, why not wait? The exit will not run away.....

I agree 100% on what you say!
On this jump it is not on how confident you are but on how experienced you are.
When I was 20 years old I was in many things more confident but I was also foolish (I don't want to say that Simon was like me) and my confidence many times was based on lack of knowledge and the energy of the youth... But this is just me.

Hello everybody,

Sorry for my late reply, I do not spend allot of time on baseboards anymore. I like to pick up the gauntlet somebody dropped. Not to accept it in anyway just to give it back to the guy dropping it ...

------------------------------
Mick Knutson wrote:
And for those waiting for the persons involved to write here, in my experience, those instructors that have incidents like this happen, rarely chime in.... Wonder why ;-)
------------------------------

Dear Mick, we have actually met a few times and even spoken face to face. Now douggs, jay and me have responded to this thread so I guess what you stated above is, at least not this time, true.

I sometimes agree with some of your statements. This time I do not. I'm not a instructor/mentor any longer, have not been for years. As far as I know I do not think jay, chad or douggs was simons instructor/mentor at the time. Therefore I give back the gauntlet, you just dropped it in front of the wrong guys.

Due to the fact that the exitpoint is shaped as it is and that the jump is quite high we can not for sure know what happened with Simon after jay saw him dropping beneath the buttress below the exitpoint. I was at the landing after doing a 3-way with douggs and chad (we where 5 at the exitpoint) and we can tell very little of the time between exit and impact.

Mick, I will not reply to any of your other statements. Mostly because I can not see the point of it.

As I said, I do not follow the baseboards so often anymore but if anyone feel the need to contact me please use "base576 at hotmail.xxx" or call me at

0 0 4 6 7 0 6 0 7 9 2 1 0

PerFlare
Swedish BASE Team aka Team Bautasten

 
I'm not getting what you mean when you say that it' such a big commitment to repell down. I've never been to this exit point but I'm haveing trouble understanding why it's so hard to get back up a rope? I'm assuming that if you're rapping down you at least have one beaner. It's not a hanging belay is it? A single runner or prusik loop is all you'd need. You can step up by just wrapping the rope around your foot. Slide the one knot up and repeat. I mean it could be done off your chest strap if your not wearing a harness. I guess your repelling that way to begen with. I'm not saying that this is the best way in the world to do things. I'm just saying that if I'd never jumped this spot before I wouldn't go down a rope with out some way to come back up. Come on it's not that big a deal to cary a runner or some thing.

Lee

Hey Lee, I´m happy that you are well prepared to climb up again! And I´m able to use prusiks and other stuff as well, but how many people you´ve ever seen equiped with this going to an exit? I´ve seen only one in several years! And specially in Lauter it is like disney...everyone follows others without asking infront.....but anyways, the intension behind my answer was not to bring the masses to train climbing up(anyways this is a needed knowledge for jumpers!)....its more like take youre time before going there...ultimate is not that easy and Lauters locals have seen enough accidents right know....but the needed experience means as well to be prepared to find a way out of a trap like this, without jumping....maybe being able to climbing up!