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WLO toggles - disadvantages
Ok folks,

I wanted to start a separate thread to that of the WLO Toggles one. I want to know if anyone has accidently cutaway their toggle or had one disconnect accidentaly?

Lastly, are there any other disadvantages?
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
I too am very interested in this subject as over the years I have seen advice given by Dwain, Kathy at Morpheus and others which has been cautious and has put me off purchasing them however that most recently released footage has changed my mind to the extent that I might place an order for them.


John
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
About 2 years and 80 jumps with Apex WLO toggles, no issues whatsoever, and in my opinion, they're designed quite bulletproof. To "accidentally" cutaway them, one would need to pull the little ring with the thumb and index finger - there's no way of this happening when you're grabbing the toggles. And there's no way the properly seated pin (with its eye sitting on the edge of the grommet and pin pushed deep in the hole) can release the brake line.

Get 'em!
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
I've had one misfire (accidental release) and one failure to release during a test fire. I'd recommend that if you are going to use them, you do some practice jumps on them, specifically that you practice activating them (releasing the line) enough times that you are absolutely familiar and comfortable with their operation.
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Re: [TomAiello] WLO toggles - disadvantages
TomAiello wrote:
I've had one misfire (accidental release) and one failure to release during a test fire. I'd recommend that if you are going to use them, you do some practice jumps on them, specifically that you practice activating them (releasing the line) enough times that you are absolutely familiar and comfortable with their operation.

What made it release, which model were they?

I have a set and have a lot of jumps using them, no live activations and zero toggle malfunctions.
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Re: [hookitt] WLO toggles - disadvantages
Also Tom,

Did you do your testing out of an airplane?
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
meekerboy wrote:
Did you do your testing out of an airplane?

No, but I can't see any reason not to do so.
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Re: [hookitt] WLO toggles - disadvantages
hookitt wrote:
What made it release, which model were they?

The original (pin style) version. I'm not sure what made it release. My guess would be that I did something wrong setting them, but I was unable to verify the exact cause.
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Re: [TomAiello] WLO toggles - disadvantages
I never had the pins prematurely fire, although I did bend the hell out of the pins on a hard opening? Safe for use again, not likely! I just changed over to asylum toggles.
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
A while back I had jumped my new (to me) set of WLOs. As far as I could see, they were set up the same on both sides and everything was set the same during the pack job.

Out to our local 300' A and a little go and throw we went. On opening I somehow not only released the line from the WLO system, but the toggle handle itself came off and was lost somewhere. I went looking for it the next night about where I opened and landed and could not find it.

I have no clue how it was improperly set, as I did both sides at the same time and the one that stayed looked correct.

All I had to do was release the one that was still there and I landed on rears quite uneventfully.
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
disadvantages:

OK, here's some quick background, I have:

-the original Vertigo WLO risers and toggles (with the snaps and long pins)

-the APEX WLO V1.0 (pins on riser side of toggle, I traded these for V2.0s when they came out)

-the APEX WLO V2.0 (pins on outside of toggle)

-Paratech line release toggles


I tested every one of these toggles at the Perrine.

The original Vertigo WLO toggles with the snap and long pins are great for slider up, toggle stays put on riser, you can easily operate with one hand. disadvantages are:
-you need a specific length of fingertrapped loop on the end of your brakelines to use
-you need to assemble them correctly
-the long pins do not take well to slider off openings (apparently they bend) and if you opt to use different toggles but not change risers, your only option is the Vertigo Syko toggles, which also use a pin for the brake setting and I believe this accellerates wear on your DBS.
-you can only use them with the Vertigo WLO risers

The APEX WLO V1.0 were always good to me, but apparently they had some reports of pins releasing the brakeline that were theorized to have been caused by downwards inertia of the pins during opening. APEX recommended swapping them out for free with V2.0s, so I did. I liked these because unlike the Vertigo WLOs, they use a cloth stub as brake setting, thereby wearing your brake settings no more than standard toggles. This also makes them compatible with most standard BASE risers. They are big grab style.
disadvantages:
-you need a specific length of fingertrapped loop on the end of your brakelines to use
-you need to assemble them correctly
-cloth stub means you have to unstow the toggle to release the brakeline
-aforementioned reports of pin slump

The APEX WLO V2.0 are great. The only change from the V1.0 seems to be moving the pin around to the outside of the toggle. This cured the pin slump issue, which makes these suitable for slider off use also. They also go on most standard BASE risers.
disadvantages:
-you need a specific length of fingertrapped loop on the end of your brakelines to use
-you need to assemble them correctly

The Paratech line release toggles also use a cloth stub for brake setting and therefore are compatible with most BASE risers. In my experience they have major issues though and I have notified everyone I know who has some of the issues I had with mine.
disadvantages:
-prone to pin slippage and if not checked every packjob you will get an unwanted brakeline release sometime
-very sensitive to manufacturing tolerances and if you get a bum set like I had, they might not work as intended at all.


The upshot of all this is that the APEX V2.0s are now my standard slider up toggles and have been since they came out. I have not had any issues at all while using them and can't see how you would unless you are not very gear aware and/or sloppy when unstowing your brakes.

Of course, the universal disadvantage of all WLO-type toggles out there at the moment is that they add complexity to the system.
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Re: [980] WLO toggles - disadvantages
980 wrote:
disadvantages:

The APEX WLO V2.0 are great. The only change from the V1.0 seems to be moving the pin around to the outside of the toggle. This cured the pin slump issue, which makes these suitable for slider off use also. They also go on most standard BASE risers.
disadvantages:
-you need a specific length of fingertrapped loop on the end of your brakelines to use
-you need to assemble them correctly

Can you explain the "specific length" further? I have WLO's and I do have my brakeline ends trapped and tacked with a smallish loop...I don't see how the WLO's require a precise length...am I missing something here?
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Re: [980] WLO toggles - disadvantages
The Evil-Lution of BASE Toggles . . .

At first glance, it looked simple, but releasable toggles turned out to be the most troublesome aspect of BASE gear. And at first we didn’t even realize we needed them. In the 1980s all we knew basically came from skydiving. And on the drop zone, since the switch over to square canopies was complete, the line over was as dead as the Raphus Cucullatus (the Dodo Bird.) Sure, you occasionally saw one, but when the bewildered jumper walked in they were generally greeted with, "You packed it that way."

Of course, what none of us realized is how big a role the slider played in preventing line-overs. Ban sliders at the drop zone and you'd make the riggers happy as there'd be line-overs all day long.

When BASE jumpers started launching from lower altitudes than ever before we removed the slider without otherwise compensating and the line-overs started up again and we surly weren't packing them in there. In those days some of us were free packing (lines coiled in the container w/ canopy on top) and some were still using deployment bags. When the tail pocket appeared (which also came from skydiving) it was mostly to control the lines in lieu of the deployment bag (that we knew caused off-heading deployments) but we also hoped it might be the cure for line-overs. But it wasn't.

Then one night in the late 80s Mark Hewitt had line-over off a LA building and impaled himself through the leg on a wrought iron fence. When Mark hit that fence BASE jumping hit a wall. This was it; this was as far as BASE was going to progress unless we figured out a fix. As Mark spun in he knew he needed to get rid of the control line that was over the canopy, and current wisdom said use your knife. But that's a hit or miss proposition while spinning in off a 500-foot building at night over very unforgiving ground. As Mark was one of the most experienced BASE jumpers at the time, if he couldn't do it, the rest of us were doomed.

While he was laid up and convalescing he realized the need for some kind of easy to use mechanical way to release either control line in case of a line-over. And that's how the Line-Mod was born. But it was an uphill battle for acceptance. Those of us yet to experience a line-over weren't quite convinced and were unwilling to accept something as new as that. And the first versions of the line-mod certainly had issues.

These were basically the same thing we used already, the same soft toggle, the same cat's eye, and the same type of keeper ring. The only difference was the control line itself didn't attach anywhere other than where it was locked off. Once fired it could simply be let go. Then it, and your line-over, was history.

But we were cats chasing our own tails. When we fixed one problem it seemed to always create another one. At first there were a few well documented saves and when those vids were hand passed throughout the BASE community the argument about needing the line-over mod started to subside. But there was always exceptions. And Mark wasn't the debate type. If you dissed the line-mod in his presence it would more than likely get you a punch in the mouth. Today we throw virtual punches online, in the bad old days of BASE we threw them for real . . .

The problem with Mark's line over mod is they worked great until you had a line-over. Once a control line goes over the canopy it becomes shorter and thus has to carry more of the load than any of the other lines. So they jammed. No matter sometimes how hard you pulled they just wouldn't release. And because you were pulling down on the line-over side you were effectively just increasing the rate of turn and decent.

We tried a combo of fixes. Fatter toggles, thinner toggles, longer, shorter I even used beeswax but all that did was make a mess you had to clean after every jump.

So for a while we just went on knowing that sometimes the line-mod would save you and sometimes not. But hey, it's BASE jumping and what's one more thing that can kill you?

By this time it was the early 1990s and the BASE gear industry was started to become a for real thing. I don't know who to credit here, as at the time it seemed more like spontaneous combustion, but several people like, Moe, Adam, and Todd started to experiment with Zoo Toggles. These were the pin type toggles and again this originally came from the drop zone. Early skydiving square canopies used them but they were later abandoned for the simpler current system.

And again we solved one thing and created another issue. The early pin toggles, by virtue of less resistance, solved the jamming problem but they weren't as user friendly as regular toggles. And they created problems when you didn't have a line-over. There were various types but for the most part you had to pull up and then back rather than just straight down like a normal toggle. So a lot of folks started complaining of jammed toggles on normal jumps. I myself had probably a half dozen of these and so did everyone else I knew. For a while I even gave up releasing the brakes at all on some jumps and just used the risers to steer and land from the get go. But that's very limiting and not a real fix, especially as big canopies hadn't come to BASE yet. So I creamed in a lot . . .

There were a few offshoots about this time too. And Andy Calistrate boldly announced he'd solved the whole problem. He went down to the hardware store and purchased three-inch across key rings and replaced the small keeper ring on the risers with them. The idea was fire the brake and let it go and it was shoot right through the key ring. Only about half the time it wouldn't and took a wrap around the ring. Also Andy was saying people were better off with the control line through a riser ring as that's what they were used to. But once we discovered the added control of free-flying control lines we didn’t want to go back. Andy faded from the BASE scene after that . . .

Of course we learned as we went. Todd, at APEX, discovered tail flutter and its involvement with line-overs and it scared us when we realized how close we were coming to having line-overs all the time when jumping slider removed. So then came the tailgate and that negated it somewhat but didn't solve it completely. But it did help enough that some jumpers aren’t using the line-mod at all anymore when going slider removed. That's cool I suppose. Until they actually and eventually have a line-over or else run into Mark Hewitt and get a punch in the mouth.

There has always been a certain amount of voodoo concerning BASE toggles and my fix has always been to teach every new bartender I break in a new drink. Its whiskey, soda, and a dash of raspberry juice. I call it a Line-Over on the Rocks. And so far so good . . .

The current version of WLOs are certainly the best yet. You can call them v2.0 if you want but really they are like v20.0. Are we there yet? Nope, but we are damn close . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194


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Re: [mbondvegas] WLO toggles - disadvantages
mbondvegas wrote:
980 wrote:
disadvantages:

The APEX WLO V2.0 are great. The only change from the V1.0 seems to be moving the pin around to the outside of the toggle. This cured the pin slump issue, which makes these suitable for slider off use also. They also go on most standard BASE risers.
disadvantages:
-you need a specific length of fingertrapped loop on the end of your brakelines to use
-you need to assemble them correctly

Can you explain the "specific length" further? I have WLO's and I do have my brakeline ends trapped and tacked with a smallish loop...I don't see how the WLO's require a precise length...am I missing something here?

Many BASE canopies come without a fingertrapped loop at the end of the line. Toggles are attached using a backstop knot, with a loop slid around the toggle itself. Toggle position is easily adjusted by loosening and sliding the knot itself (for this reason I usually refer to this system as the "sliding knot" toggle attachment).

This is because when you switch from slider up to slider down, the ideal toggle placement changes. The path of the line through the guide ring effectively "shortens" the line, putting the ideal toggle location further down the line.

If you are using WLO's, you cannot shorten/lengthen the toggle as you change from slider up to down, because the toggle position is fixed (by the location of the loop in the end). The WLO's require a "precise" length in the sense that the toggle setting is fixed and unchangeable for changes in your configuration.
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Re: [TomAiello] WLO toggles - disadvantages
Honestly the need to move the toggle setting up or down the line seems more ritualistic than anything. After finding the desired toggle setting (not brake setting) for slider down/off, I see no reason to move it.

No matter what you do, if the brake lines are routed through the guide ring, it will feel different than if the brake lines are outside the guide ring. No need to try and make it feel the same because it simply won't. Find the desired toggle setting for a slider down jump and just leave it.

By the way, I've a set up with WLO toggles and it's secure with just a knot. It's got a lot of use and the pin is fine. Perhaps not the best idea but that's how it is at the moment.
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Re: [hookitt] WLO toggles - disadvantages
Hookitt,

May I suggest that it's not so much about how it feels; rather it's about a reduction in glide, forward speed and flare power due to tail deflection. If I don't adjust the toggle settings for slider up configuration, the tail on my canopy is pulled down a good couple of inches when in full drive which in turn reduces its ability to fly.

In practise and similar to you, I just leave the toggle settings where they are because max glide is not necessary for the objects I jump however other objects, sites and conditions might well demmand this.

Regards

John
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
meekerboy wrote:
I wanted to start a separate thread to that of the WLO Toggles one. I want to know if anyone has accidently cutaway their toggle or had one disconnect accidentaly?

I have about 150-200 jumps with Morpheus WLO toggles and before my recent trip never had any problems with them. But on my recent trip to Europe I had 3 misfires in 30 jumps. Be it by accident or not but these 30 jumps were also my 30 first jumps with Vampire 1 wingsuit. After the 3 misfires I spent some serious time examining the toggles but couldn't find any specific defect on them. So mainly I just came into conclusion that reasons leading into misfires were :
1) I had about 150 jumps with that pair. Along its usage the toggle has been softening and losing some of it's original stiffness therefore letting the pin slip inside the toggle and not staying "all the way" secured.
2) Using a wingsuit leads into different opening sequence (different kinds of forces on the system) and combined with probably not so state of the art condition of the toggles this might have brought the problem up.

So I grounded the toggles for the rest of the trip and came into conclusion that if you use WLO -toggles you should pay extra caution to the condition of the release system and understand that it might "soften up" as your jump numbers on it pile up. And at some point you just have to replace them into new ones whereas standard toggles pretty much last forever (if you don't damage them somewhere).
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Re: [meekerboy] WLO toggles - disadvantages
Have some 40 jumps with my set of WLO (the newer type) with no misfires. There has been no need to use the cutaway feature though. Have made 2 practice cutaways in a relaxed skydiving environment.

Nevertheless, when I jump slider-down, I always mount regular biggrab toggles, without the cutaway feature. The simpler - the safer.

There's also one more useful feature of jumping 2 sets of toggles (at least for me). I always keep the unused pair of toggles in the leg pouch. Sometimes, I have too long breaks between jumps so I may forget whether the chute was packed last time with the slider up or down. So the toggles are one of the 2 markers (PC being the second) reminding me of the slider position. In order to recall the current setup of the rig it is enough for me to look into the leg pouch. If i see WLO, then the rig is packed slider-down. If I see regular toggles, then I can climb a 1000-ft A.
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Re: [Airgazm] WLO toggles - disadvantages
pack the canopy well and u don't need them.
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Re: [John_Scher] WLO toggles - disadvantages
It just depend on the type of jump you do, if you jump slider down most of the time and go to Europe make 20-30 jump out of 200-300 you don't need wlo. some of the line over well clear it self (not always). if you live in Europa it might be good to get one but not necessity.
I do carry a hook knife (jack the ripper not the useless red plastic one) on tall cliff's