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Does anyone have a camera mounted on a full face lid? Currently I use a bullet cam taped onto the top, but would like to mount the camera itself.

If you do, how do you mount it? By screwing holes through the top of the helmet, would that not affect how it crumples should you become good friends with the object?

I really like cookies flatlock, but they are designed to fit only their helmet shapes. Would it be worth it to screw a flatlock on and eliminate any snag points with fiberglass/resin?

 

Well I'm looking for a motocross or mountain biking helmet with the proper crash ratings. Skydiving specific lids just don't cut it for me.

The problem is I don't know how to mount a camera to something like this.

I appreciate wanting a thicker helmet
to protect your melon. I even had a
full-face motorcycle protect my head
once in a wreck.

However, don't know why mounting
something on it would be any different?

Of course any time you drill a hole in
anything you weaken it.. but I have
drilled a hole in a motorcycle helmet
and a skydiving lid and the process
was the exact same.

What model of camera is it?

Never been able to justify $800 for a setup that can't take an object strike.

Let me know what you come up with. I want to top mount on a Giro Remedy. Without the big-assed metal universal top mount bracket.

Just haven't quite figured it out yet. I was leaning towards table-sanding a flat spot on the lid just enough to screw on a flatlock or goldmember. Don't know how that's gonna work out yet though.

I don't have the cash for friggin trial and error.

I'm with ya there. It's silly of me to be running around with full body armor and hanwags only to be sporting a helmet that's all show. I was just wondering if someone out there has come up with a solution to this or if you need to choose between protection and video

Carpediem.

I will use some of my previous posts to respond:

Cookie Composites really helped me out in this regard. I sent my "Charly Insider" (full face PG helmet) to them and a staff there by name Jeremy Hunt tried all of the poly blocks which they use on their own skydiving helmets but he couldn't match the symmetry of arc. So he made me a custom aluminium bracket with a Liquid Flatlock on top. I asked for it to be as small and as low on the helmet as possible so he cut a hole in the centre of the bracket to reduce its height. It thus has no excess length, width, height or weight. It's basically four legs joined by a frame except it's made as one piece and the workmanship is flawless. I’ve jumped it and it works perfectly.

The Charly Insider helmet is a PG helmet and is tested and certified to CEN Standard EN 966, which is a European testing standard specifically designed for helmets used for sport aviation. This standard includes tests for shock absorption, penetration resistance, and specifications for visibility and head mobility.

Choice of helmet is a compromise between protection and performance and for me the Charley Insider is superior to a non certified skydiving helmet and offers a good balance of size, weight and visibility.

I’m not an expert and have only 80 jumps to my name but still I hope this post has something in it which is of use to you.

John

Hi John,

How did your Cookie guy attach the bracket to the helmet? I jump a Lazer Downhill, which is very similar to the Insider, and I've been wondering about mounting a camera. What I wouldn't want are bolts pointing at my skull.

Gus

Gus,

I have never looked under the liner but for sure I can't feel a thing. I'll try to look under it tonight but it might be glued back in. Failing that I will ask Jeremy at Cookie and then revert. Either way Cookie seem to be very knowledgable in helmets & related issues so I would trust them to do the right thing whatever that might be.

I'll get back to you.

John

 

Cookie's new ROK is purportedly for the BASE, CRW, swoop, and other "fanatical" (their word, not mine) environments. Anyone know what sort of impact it is designed to take?

Karnowski had a Cookie on for his deal. Unsure of the model, but it did not fair well.

Gus,

I checked out the liner and it is glued in however I could feel through it but could not detect any protuberances whatsoever so they either used self tapping screws or they countersunk and filled in the studs. I have had three helmets that have cost me the earth but after some time I have found fault with them all. I am fussy to the point of neurosis. The Charly Insisder PG helmet with the Cookie custom camera mount, Liquid Flatlock and Hypeye is absolutely perfect and for me cannot be improved.

Now if only I could do the same with my boots!

John

Hi All,
I used to sell a lot of PG kit and we didn't sell the Insider for two reasons, both explained to me by a helmet designer for a motocross kit company who was a client of mine.
1. The chin guard on a full-face lid is designed to collapse on impact. Too strong and can transmit energy to the neck and spine, causing injury. He felt the Insider chin piece is " way too strong" (his words).
2. Helmets with shaped or aerodynamic forms to the back can cause major neck injuries due to leverage/rotational forces in the event of a "rolling" backwards impact. Chin straps or clips which break before this force becomes dangerous help, but better not to have the issue in the first place. (And you wouldn't have a lid on if you have more than one impact, i.e. rolling down a mountain.)
I don't know about industry standards or evidence based studies to back all this up, but it made sense to me and we stopped selling the Insider and sold the lazer Downhill instead. Just to be clear, I don't sell either now, have no involvement in the industry and the Insider is certified and one of the best selling PG helmets going. We just didn't sell it.
Wandering a bit now, this helmet conversation started after we watched two accidents in a day, and in both cases the helmet came off and rolled away (without heads inside). Mr Helmet-Man showed us how this happens. Put your lid on and do it up, push the back of the helmet firmly onto the back of your head then lift/rotate the helmet up at the front. In many cases the chin strap is clear of the chin, and the helmet rolls off. Well known to motorcyclists apparently (?) it was news to me, and worth checking if you are serious about head protection.
Personally, i like my little skateboard lid, but then I've banged my head a lot.
Sorry it's long, just stirred some memories and thought it of interest.
Dave M
P.S. Sorry John, don't want to add to any neurosis out there!

Dave M,

"I don't know about industry standards or evidence based studies to back all this up, but it made sense to me..."
______________________________________________

Dave,

As stated I'm not an expert and in no way have reason to endorse this product. I do however tend to rely on scientifically derived standards. The Charly is certified by a recognised body and has been awarded certification as stated below including head mobility.

"The Charly Insider helmet is tested and certified to CEN Standard EN 966, which is a European testing standard specifically designed for helmets used for sport aviation. This standard includes tests for shock absorption, penetration resistance, and specifications for visibility and head mobility".

If there is any data, evidence or real life situations where this helmet has failed then I along with most others would like to hear about it.

Right now I have no reason to doubt CEN Standard EN 966 and most certainly feel more confident with this helmet than with a completely uncertified skydiving helmet.


John

Agree with all you say John, but remember that tests are only as good as the things they examine. My points are based on stuff outside those criteria tested, but still have a bearing on how "good" the product is. Incidentally, the impact forces tested by the CEN tests are among the lowest in the world, fact.
As for personal knowledge of these problems, well... I once had the chin piece ripped off a Downhill and think it prevented further injury than had it been stronger. Having said that, I've scraped lumps out of my chin guard before and been glad it didn't break!
I have been shown a helmet with a shaped back that killed the wearer in an accident. In fact, this particular helmet used to be shown to everyone attending a paragliding instructor or coaching course in the UK to illustrate the point.
So, the points mentioned are relevant, but not overriding. If you are happy, then rock on. And as you say a quality, certified lid is better than some thin bit of crap with no tested standards.
Maybe my summary should be "all tested helmets are equal, but some are more equal than others", with apologies to Mr Orwell.
Personally I wear a cheap, open face skateboard lid 'cos it's superlight and comfy, and very probably fuck all use in a big accident, so I'm not on some evangelical crusade here, just passing on info.
Have fun out there.
Dave M

Google "paragliding helmet" if you have a few days to spare. All PG's are geeky net-pests and love to discuss this stuff. (I consider myself cured of pg'ing now)

After many years of riding motorcycles,
skateboarding, bicycling, and jumping
I have wore numerous types of helmets.

Many MX wrecks in dirt --- helmet stays on.
One crash swooping --- helmet stayed on.
Bad motorcycle wreck on street --- full face
came off, strap scraped up my face, and
damaged the helmet but no neck injury.

Lastly, I can appreciate the desire for more
impact protection in the BASE environment;
just got a full face for this reason (thanks
Mike) but the weight of a real heavy duty
helmet seems to me over time the force
from opening would hurt/strain the neck.

What about using a fibreglass kit commonly available in auto repair stores to build an of enclosure around the camera? If the helmet and camera are covered in a barrier film before applying the resin the set glass cloth can then be removed, and the camera taken out. This 'casting' of the camera can then be attached to the camera using screws or glue, depending on whether the attachment is to be temporary or permanent.
The alignment of the camera is obviously quite critical and this must be tested before mixing any resin.
It sounds complicated but the tools required are minimal, just a clean surface to work on and a little knowledge about resin systems that can be obtained from the back of the pack bought from the store.
Any questions don't hesitate to pm me, I have quite a lot of experience working on fibreglass boats and have used this method before to build an enclosure for a tiny tach, so I suppose it would work for a camera.

If you wanted to mount the whole camera and not just the bullet cam, I suppose you could always screw the flatlock on, and fill in the sides with expanding foam, and cover them with flox (mixture of resin and powdered glass) to make it harder wearing... possibly overlapping some layers of glass to cover the edges?

Nice contradiction of yourself there....

Also it sounds like you don't really know anything about using lightweight rated paragliding helmets in base at all?

Anywho back to the topic at hand, I am jumping a charlie insider and the camera whore in me has been trying to solve the same problem as you, mount a camera with no screws at all. I have seen images of the Cookie Composites set up above and it is a fairly flat but high snag potential and screwed into the top of the helmet so really no use at all.

The plan I have come up with, in theory only, is to create a mould of the top of the helmet for the first few cm's so you have a large surface area. Then from that mould make a fiberglass or carbon fiber shell that perfectly fits onto the top of the helmet and has full surface area contact to the top of the helmet. Then email the manufacturers and ask them what glues can be used on the outer surface of their helmet or maybe just what its made of then research the strongest bonding agent that will work and then rough up the surface of the helmet and the mounting device. Glue into place using the entire surface area. Install a liquid flatlock to the top and use a lower profile long camera to cut down on inertia. I don't know if the glue would be strong enough to hold the camera but that is how i one day plan to try mount a camera onto mine.

Weathergirl, some good points you make there, I'm going to go try that with my Charlie and if that happens I might get my money back by doing that in the shop and then go get another rated paragliding helmet. My days of jumping a skydive nothing helmet are over. What did you guys sell as an alternative to the Charlie?

If you don't think you need an impact rated helmet over a piece of crap cookie helmet read this

http://www.abc.net.au/queensland/conversations/stories/s1764324.htm?nsw

Although he had no helmet and wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed to begin with an impact rated helmet might have led to a very different outcome.

Hello Jamesm,

Don't know your experience level... given your blank
profile, however from mine you can definitely tell I
am a newbie with only 11 BASE jumps.

However, I have modified different helmets and
have also worked with fiberglass (but not a helmet).

Cameras add weight, extra weight has more inertia,
so it applies more stress to the neck during opening
shock--- simple physics.

Not sure how I contradicted myself

I read the article from your link. YES, that guy
might have avoided his serious head injury had he
been wearing a proper helmet. Of course a crappy,
thin, non-certified skydiving helmet would have
been better than wearing nothing on a cliff strike.

In college I took care of a C4-C5 quadreplegic so
I know first hand what that life entails, hence I
do want to avoid it. I also know jumpers with
chronic neck pain from decades of jumping.

Before I started flying camera I took an old half
head motorcycle helmet, drilled a hole in the top
center of it, ran a large bolt through it, and put
a weight on it. I then wore the helmet in my
garage doing slow, controlled rotations to help
build up the muscles in my neck.

I would like to try on a "Charlie Insider" especially
since so many experienced guys recommend them.
I am wordy, and a newbie, but totally open to
learning new tricks

The "will it come off" test is a helmet fit issue, relevant to all lids, not aimed specifically at the Insider.
We sold lots of Lazer Downhills, and I wrecked several in 15 years flying so I know they work, but try 'em all. Searching the paragliding forums will produce lots of threads on the best and newest helmets out there, I've been out of it for awhile.
Dave

If you're REALLY worried about whether or not the camera helmet will protect you, you need to be jumping a DOT or SNELL rated full-faced helmet. Skydiving helmets don't really do all THAT much in terms of protection by comparison. To my knowledge, no skydiving helmet manufacturer has really developed a helmet that really reduces the energy attenuation of a significant impact to your head like a rated helmet designed for MTB, MX, or street, with the exception of Pro-Tec, who probably makes the safest helmet out there that is commonly used in BASE.

I have seen both MTB and MX helmets used in BASE and a few that were mounted with cameras to boot. Not a difficult thing to mount a camera to a helmet really, just need to put some thought and money towards it. And don't worry, your camera might act as an extra "crumple zone."

I recommend a FF MTB helmet if you're going to go that way.

If you are using a "bullet" or "lipstick" camera (with a recording device elsewhere on your persons) a little adhesive velcro works fine. Mr. Huckstable set up the one I use for snowboarding and I jumped it once 3 sec slider down. no worries. well a little worries before the jump, but with the wire under an outer layer of clothing and a double gear check all went well. just make sure the velcro on the helmet it the loopy side and replace as needed.

bonus: you can really play with camera angles and perspectives super easily.