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g'day every1 1st post here ad by no means am i going to be base jumping soon until i get more skydiving experience up but im just researching base @ the moment so a couple of q's

1st - should a beginner start off on a velcro or pin closed container

2nd - is there any disadvantages in using a top skin zero p canopy

and 3rd - wat makes a container for example the adrenelin hybrid "Aimed for experienced jumpers" as oppose to the adrenelin ZAK or C.R. blackjack

cheers tj

woops my bad for putting the blackjack thing in there i was just thinkin bout something else obviously its a canopy not a container so ingnore that eh wow dont i feel like a dumb ass

tj

if you can afford it?

1. get a dual pin set up. APEX, ASYLUM, MORPHEUS are trusted american companies. and with the American dollar sucking so bad their a really good deal right now! If your buying from overseas?

2. get the ZP on the LEADING edge of your topskin---you get much better performance ----flare, quicker opernings, better glide etc.

but if cost is issue? and need to buy used? or whatever? 1. velcro is fine as long as your shrivel flap velcro is kept up. Nice also if your velcro rig has the tuck flap up toward the top by the yolk. and some people believe that velcro is better for slower airspeed jumps __0-2 second delays. I wouldnt know though. MY first 25 to 30 jumps was on a velcro reactor 4 velcro rig and i was too new at the time to even notice the difference to be honest.

2. ZP isn't nessessary! Nice, but not nessassarry. My first two canopies (FLiK by Apex) opened fine, flared fine, and had nice glide without out it. And people were doing fine without that option for almost two decades... But since i've used it , the last two canopies i've ordered brand new were ordered with the ZP top at the LEADING edge (also FLiKs both with "HTS" hybrid top skin).

3. for your first canopy also you have to figure out if you want vents/v-tech. Which can help inflate your canopy quicker and keep it inflated if for some reason your nose/cells are blocked off (i.e. a 180 against an object). although ive notice faster pressurization with just the adition of the ZP LEADING edge option without vents. but that's not going to help me on an object strike where my nose is blocked! And/or get both!?

for me i've not ordered vents on my last 2 caopies for a few reasons. but i don't want to go on about my reason's, thats just me.

vents are a good idea for a first canopy. i would think. because when you first get started your gonna make some "mis-judgements" and the vents are probably gonna save your ass, trust me! The difference of 15 feet of opening can make the difference of dying, broken bones, and worse of all being a CRIPPLE for life!

that being said if your exclusively going to be doing huge monoliths for ever than maybe vents can be forgotten. but i would get the ZP hybrid top skin, if it can be afforded.

good luck and good day

Minor point, but I think you made a typo there. ZP is available on the leading edge, not the trailing edge, from most manufacturers. Some canopies with all ZP topskins are also available by special order (or still floating around from when that was a regular option), but I am unaware of any canopies with ZP only on the trailing edge of the wing.

FIXED IT. I DON'T KNOW WHY I SAID THE OPPOSITE??? duh!

You're likely to hear a bunch of different opinions on that. Which means you're going to have to decide for yourself based on your location, intended jumping style, etc.

Pin Rigs: Lower maintenance (closing loops can be carried with you and replaced), higher resale value (more people are looking for them now), possible to route a total malfunction, harder to close symmetrically, possible that one rig could work for your entire BASE career.

Velcro Rigs: Higher maintenance (need a sewing machine to replace velcro, or replace the whole shrivel flap), lower resale value (which also means they're cheaper for you to pick up second hand), no possibility of routing a total malfunction, easier to close symmetrically, may not last you for as long in your BASE career (if you want to fly wingsuits, for example, you'll need to buy a pin rig).




It's harder to pack neatly, because the ZP is more "slippery" during packing. For most experienced jumpers (packers, really) this is not a very noticeable issue. For beginners, it can be a real pain.


"Aimed for experienced jumpers" usually means "intended for specific kinds of jumps that are only done by experienced jumpers." The Razor and L/D+, for instance, are basically just for tracking and wingsuit jumps, and for use with very small pack volume canopies (the Trango). As a beginner, you won't find much use for such a specialized system because you aren't going to be doing the jumps they are intended for at the outset--and even if you are, until you've got better skills it's unlikely the rig is going to make much difference.

"Beginner" rigs tend to be more "general purpose" rigs, where "advanced" rigs are actually "specialized" rigs.

cheers tj

Tom, I disagree with you on the ZP topskin being more difficult to pack.

When packing, the ZP transition into F111 is right at the first packing tab. It folds nicely. And once you have a couple pack jobs, the crease develops great.

ZP isn't necessary. But it makes a gigantic difference in opening, flight, and flare.

Yes, as I said above, I think it's hardly noticeable for experienced jumpers.

But I have used a variety of canopies with part and all ZP topskins with students, and at the student level of packing proficiency, almost everyone has struggled with the ZP.

I have to agree with Tom on this one.

I can only speak about the standard vs. CUS Blackjack, as they are the only CUS vs. standard canopies that I have owned and packed.

The CUS version is more difficult to pack because the entire packjob rests on the ZP part when on the ground.

This is hardly noticeable on surfaces with a lot of friction, especially once the canopy has some jumps/dirt on it, but it is very noticeable on low friction surfaces. Just try packing a CUS Blackjack and a standard Blackjack after one another on a hardwood floor or a slick tarp and you will see what I mean.

I agree that CUS is not necessary. I disagree that it makes a gigantic difference.
It makes a significant difference to canopy flight and flare and a hardly noticeable difference to openings.
The way it changes canopy flight and flare requires you to be more in control of your canopy and a more aware and skilled canopy pilot to be as safe as you would be on a standard canopy.

The above paragraph is my opinion based on a few jumps on standard Blackjack 260s vs CUS Blackjack 260s, so it may not be true for other types of canopies.

ZP ripstop nylon is also weaker than Low Porosity (0-3 CFM) ripstop nylon and more prone to damage.
In addition, ZP tends to carry/build up a static charge which will make fine river sand cling to the fabric with unbelievable tenacity and it will take you about 30 minutes to clean a CUS Blackjack 260 if you land on a dry river bed with fine sand and the ZP touches it.

Postulating that other canopies will compare similarly, I would not recommend the CUS option to beginner BASE jumpers unless they are already very competent canopy pilots and good reserve packers.

They certainly swoop a lot better, but that should probably be the last factor anyone considers when selecting a new BASE canopy.

980, i do see your point.

but when i first learnd to pack i learned on a 2 pin system. then at my first jump course they only had a velcro container for me to use. so i used it, never having packed a velcro container i found it harder and more difficult to pack than the 2 pin although quite a few people say get velcro for a first rig it's easier--i didn't think so.
My point there being if your taught with something the first time that's all you know , so if your taught with a ZP leading edge canopy and don't know any better?
Ive never packed on a slippery surface as you pointed out, but when you mentioned it i thought about and what you said does make sense and could see it being a pain.
and i do notice when rolling my nose for terminal jumps (12+ sec.), i have to control my nose rolls more so than my old F-111.

I'VE gone from one regular F 111 unvented FLiK to another unvented FLiK with a hybrid top skin and noticed a big difference in openings, to the point where i went to a smaller mesh slider. I do believe i does get the pressurization goin' a little quicker.
i'm assuming because you have a vented canopy (black jack) maybe there's not a huge difference on openings? I wouldn't know cuz i aint never jumped one (blackjack) with or without ZP top. Heard their great canopies though.

also thanx for bringing up the thing about the sand and the ZP not being as durable. Points i didnt consider.

anyway just thought i'd throw that in.

good day

How does CUS affect deep brakes & stall characteristics?

Another point I have found I need to be aware of with my ZP Blackjack...
On urban jumps, the increased "swoop"/better flight the ZP nose gives me can be a pain with very short landing areas, or steep approaches because of obstacles/other buildings. With a non-zp canopy I can do a nice deep brake approach, give it a bit of speed at the end and get a nice flare. Often with the ZP Blackjack I have to fly the deep brake approach all the way to the ground as the swoop might see me pass the spot. Of course, this has saved my ass a few times too when I've been short, and is my best friend on lobs with a landing area no-one else can get to!
Great fun on the exit when you discuss the landing area. Everyone points straight down and I say "Well, Ive got my Blackjack so I'm gonna go to the roundabout, take the third exit, right at the lights and land somewhere way down there..."
Minor point, but something I take into account when reaching into my rig pile for a set of kit.
Dave

I asked that question a lot before i got mine on my FLiK (hybrid top skin "HTS") and was told it shouldn't.

But was told it will have better "performance" glide etc.

weather snipet: "Another point I have found I need to be aware of with my ZP Blackjack...
On urban jumps, the increased "swoop"/better flight the ZP nose gives me can be a pain with very short landing areas, or steep approaches because of obstacles/other buildings......."


i've met a few people who are big asylum/CR fan's (perigee/blackjack owner's)-- who have come to the conclusion (and also could afford it) that the Fox canopy was their choice for most "urban" stuff. Because its has good glide but is still slow enough and less aggressive and more predictable and sinks better in those more "hairy" venues. It's just a few people but i'm guessing there might be more than a few?

Ive jumped my FLiK's in urban enviroments and never had any problems but totally see the benefits of the Fox in the urban venue. The FLiK does need to be slowed down a bit more than the Fox. But from what i've heard the BlackJack/Ace is a speedier canopy than the FLiK.

I'm one of those people. I know of at least 3-4 others. I've jumped a ZP Flik and prefer the Fox over it. I also prefer the Fox over my ZP Blackjack. I love really challenging (aka: fun) landing areas and the Fox gives me more room to fuck up (aka: be human).