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Just read the article in Basewiki regarding containers. I was wondering what personal preferences there are for velcro, single pin and two pin closing sytems with reasons why? I'm currently jumping an older velcro container but am considering upgrading when funds allow.
Cheers.

If you're looking for a new rig, you may be hard put to find a single pin rig currently being manufactured.

What's your experience level? Most of the downside of pin rigs (possibility of misrouting the bridle and causing a total, harder to close without distorting the pack job) don't really apply to reasonably experienced jumpers.

In general, and in my opinion;

Velcro rig:
(a) easier to close without distorting the pack job
(b) virtually impossible to route a total malfunction
(c) possibly more secure for long hand held delays
(d) required maintenance (velcro replacement) needs a sewing machine

Pin rig:
(a) more familiar system to skydivers
(b) more secure for terminal or near-terminal jumps
(c) possibility exists to misroute the bridle and cause a total
(d) field maintenance (closing loop replacement) is easier


I don't think "1 or 2 pin rig" is a very valid discussion. In general, you'll find that it's easier to discuss very specific rigs, as a difference from a Prism 1 (for example) to a Gargoyle, may not apply from a Perigee Pro to a Prism 2.

The Snekor from flyyourbody.com is a rad rig. I own, Vision, Prism 1, gargoyle and Snekor. Snekor has progressive features like toggles that stow on your straps down by your chest strap for WS flights or for quicker access on all jumps. you can also stow at the the normal spot in the risers. it is light weight and it fits very comfortably with the BOC nice and low, easy to grab in a WS. it also has the waist strap set up like the newer skydive rigs. Flyyourbody seems to be the manufacturer really thinking outside the box and producing progessive gear.

velcro is easier to pack cuz you dont need one of those stupid yankee doodles for pulling the shoelace loops through the holes before putting the pin in.

THe cool thing about the prism 1 is that it is the only rig on the market that you can open with absolutely zero air speed. stand in your living room, huck the PC hard and it will pop the one pin. It works very efficeintly for low freefall and the rig also is good for WS and tracking because the pin and bridal are all very well hidden and protected from the airflow. the prism is an underrated rig that remains popular overseas, but is overlooked by us fat americans.

I think hell just froze over, because I agree with JT.

Then again, I own three Prism 1's and a Prism 1.5.

I'm having difficulty visualising this, can you explain? I can't even imagine how to misroute the bridle. (unless it's through a legstrap! )

is it just me but i find my pin rig WAY easier to close than my softcock (velcro) rig. same as distorting the pack job. im always more confident that i didnt shift things around when pin closing.
just my opinion though. i ordered another apex dp to replace my SC. for me i just dont see a reason to have a velcro rig anymore.

i agree that pin is easier to close than velcro. in saying that, i only did my first 20 jumps on a velcro before i got my vertex (2 pin) and later wsx.

i can't fault 2 pin containers. they offer more security than a single pin and velcro, are pretty hard to misroute (if u have done this it should have been picked up on during a pin/bridle check before EVERY jump, no excuses). i've seen pin rigs perform miles ahead of velcro containers on lowish freefalls- the pins tend to pop much faster and the velcro holds a fraction longer until the shrivel flap does it's job, even with priming.

i can't justify getting a velcro container when this technology is available to every jumper thesedays. yes, velcro works and when used properly will do fine, but why settle for this when there are better and in my opinion easier and safer options on the market?

grego

I agree, for me closing a pin rig is way easier , and distorting the pack job is not even an issue.

Yeah but when you started packing was it with a velcro or pin rig Ren? I started with a pin and have had trouble packing a velcro when I have tried, but speaking to people who started with a velcro, they say they have trouble with a pin.

I have a pic of 1 really good reason why I would never buy a velcro rig but I'm having trouble uploading it.

I started with a velcro... pins changed my life! even after a lot of velcro packing, i am never really happy with how much the canopy moves around.

i couldnt agree more. i never understood why the general rule of thumb was that velcro was easier to close or moved the canopy bundle around less than a pin rig.
lt would be interesting to see how many jumpers really think velcro closes easier. poll anyone?

 

very true. i guess im a good case study because im a newb and bought both rigs at the same time and have almost equal # of packs on each. i always thought my pin rig was much easier. it could be partly because i have a couple thousand skydives though. i just never liked closing the velcro.

the only jump i can think of that velcro is superior is if your doing long delay's hand held. and if your doing those you need to get back in the time machine and set the dial for 2007. i remeber talking to kevin from bombproof. he told me you guys use to always go hand held back in the day for everything sub term!!!

ive read tom repeatadly say that you can misroute the bridle causing a total but i cant picture a realistic way for that to happen. another guy asked "how" as well. can anyone explain this?


p.s. im not knocking on velcro. we all know velcro rigs are perfectly fine. i just think were going to see less and less as each year passes by because other than price theres really no need for them anymore.

Thanks Tom and everyone else who has taken the time to reply. Base wise my experience level is low but have 3000 skydives over 27 years. I don't have many people to float ideas with where I am and I really appreciate the information that I get from this forum.
My current rig will serve me well I'm sure, and when funds are available I'll buy a pin container. Next question will be 'Thoughts on canopies' but that will be the cash comes in.
Keep safe.

If you leave no slack above the top pin, it's possible for the corner of the flap to take the force of the PC, locking the pin in place. I've seen this mistake caught on gear check at the exit point 3 times.

People make mistakes. Saying that it's not "realistic" isn't the same as saying it will never happen.

Me too. I find velcro easier.

I also find that more of the beginners I see having trouble closing symmetrically are closing pin rigs. Usually it's because they are cranking on the pull up cord hard (which makes it "easier" to close the rig--just not close it symmetrically). This levers the container closed (like a skydiving container) quite easily, but often also rolls one side of the canopy up, contributing to off headings.

Rather than asking "which do you find easier to close?" perhaps we ought to be examining data about opening heading for low time jumpers on pin v. velcro rigs. Unfortunately, I don't have any of that data--only my gut feel based on observation of multiple students.

 

thanks tom, ill keep an eye out for that pretty serious error! i see what your saying about jumpers that just start wrenching on the pull up cord moving the pack job around. i always place my hand under the flaps keeping the bundle inplace while GRADUALLY pulling the loop through. i do a little on the bottom, clamp it, then work the top, clamo, bottom ext...
this keeps everything nice and in place!
does anyone else close like this or am i over thinking things?

That's pretty much the technique I teach.

I agree with this

actually if your way head down, it will take the bottom pin, but its still very possible to have a total,

go home and try it, pack no slack in the bridle between the container and first pin, that pull on the pc like you would be head down, ie straight along the container and youll find that you can pull as hard as you want and never get that pin
thats why Apex bridles have that idiot velcro right above the first pin, it ensures slack to allow the top pin to be pulled

Edit: i didnt see that you said to actually route the bridal between the pins, but if anyone is "unsure" of how the two pin total can occur there ya go

to avoid total mal........ every jumper who is using the two pin rig should start to pack so that bridle goes out between the two grommet and not over the top of the rig.

also, for low jumps bridle should go opposite way so that first pin which goes out is top pin and than followed by bottom pin...

I route the bridal in between but can you explain why the top should open first on a low jump as opposed to the bottom opening first on higher jumps? And what is considered a low jump to do this from? Less than 250 ft?

I'm not trying to answer for Robi, so he may disagree with my reasoning here, and I'd love to hear his explanation as well, but...



I teach this method for all hand held jumps. It eliminates the chance that a loop of bridle can snag around the bottom corner of the rig (the exposed bridle is only long enough to go from the top pin to the jumpers hand). Also, if the jumper is still head high at pin extraction, the chance of some hesitation (or slight snag) is reduced by pulling the pin that is directly in line (the top pin) first, rather than pulling through a "corner" or bend in the bridle (around the bottom of the pin cover flap).




Hand held jumps.

Yeah I could have answered my own questions. I took some picture of my rig in different setups, including the possible total which would never happen on my rig because thats not the way I do it but is very possible if you don't route between the grommits.

ok I'll try
Low jumps are lets say those were u go for any reason ''go and throw'' regardless of height of the object.
On those jumps you want to get your canopy over your head asap-right.
How to do that...
Conventional bridle routing goes so:
bridle goes from the top , upper pin closing the top and than next pin on the bridle ( lower pin) closing the bottom of container.
What is happening when you jump go-throw style jump.
You are head high. Your body is lets say 45 degrees, if not even more straight up. In this configuration bridle is pulling the lower pin first , bridle need to ''twist'' the pin first and than pull the pin out.
Pull force on the lower pin is often higher despite of all tricks jumpers do.
Now, If you rout the bridle opposite , so that the bridle going away from the rig from the top, you will have more logical geometry and there will not be a ''pin twist first'' stage. force needed to pull the pin is much less too. Imagine how bridle pull the pins on tracking!! You want the same way on ''go-throw'' jumps-right?!
Another good thing is that routing bridle is way easier.
Bridle is already on the top of the rig and jumper just need to measure the distance to the hand and fold the PC in to the hand.No need to take care of the corrners , no need to have velcro tab, no need to be afraid of bridle flapping in FF etc...

This way of closing is only for hand held jumps.

picture saying more than 1000 words!
Nice job 16!!

good pics jarrett thanks. i didnt know this method. ive been routing my bridle out the top. i now see the potential problem with that way.
hows the hoof healing? you jumping yet?

Foot is doing good. *Disclaimer* Not a Base Jumping injury. I am on a jumping delay due to the massive flood here in Southern Washington.

i still don't get the between the grommets thing. i like the bottom one first on handheld idea alot though, time to go brave negative temps this weekend and try it out.

what about short delay stowed jumps? say 1-2 sec. do you still want the top pin to pull first? if so where and how do you route the bridle to get it to the bottom of the container. i tried neatly folding it over on top of the pins twords the boc. is there any problems with that?

Here tis:

 i still don't get the between the grommets thing.
------------------------------------------------------
same as bringing the bridle between the pin not from the top and over

can you elaborate on how and why it happened,
was the Velcro worn out ?
is the pc in the pouch backward or just vented Pc, looks funny some how

i was watching and videoing the jumpers in the previous photo. the main factors that caused this premature opening was 1) canopy too large for the container 2) strain was placed on the velcro on initiating the gainer 3) velcro possibly a bit worn, though this was not the main contributing factor. combining these 3 things can have the potential for a messy outcome.
the pc was a zp 38 vented with plastic handle...ideal for the object - no problems there, excpet the pc should be out before the canopy hey chalkie . the canopy snivelled for 2-3secs, the jumper pitched and it opened.

grego

So really the fault was the over eager jumper pulling aerials on worn non compatible gear, rather than blaming "velcro".

I would agree with you. I have seen The Great Clif Ryder pull off some massive aerials on his ill vision velcro rig and an old pegasus tarp.
But I would say it is easier for a canopy/container situation to be more non compatible on a velcro rig rather than on a pin rig.

At terminal speeds, maybe, but I have seen way overstuffed pin rigs tow longer than desired on short delays.

I think the thought here is know your gear, and use it properly.

But remember, always check your pins are in good condition. Skydivers pins very rarely get damaged as they land in nice grassy areas generally and have time to pick up their gear carefully. Sometimes we're landing on asphalt or rock ground and in a hurry it's easy to step on the pin(s) and scratch it or damage it. Just a few fibres of a closing loop hanging up on a pin could seriously change the outcome of your next jump.

Stay safe,

Max.

Ha Ha yeah..... It's easy to not get "over eager" at events like where that happened

I like velcro for static line jumps because you can hear the velcro rip vs your bottom pin being pulled. I realized this after I sold my last velcro rig.

you can hear your pins pop too. just listen for it.


Ody

so is there any potential problem doing this with a floating pin ie having the floating pin at the top?

I'll second that. I love that sound

hmm, interesting technique..i have a apex DP and it seems like i need to have my bridle flap open for this configuration..but thats not a big deal, i notice a remarkable less pull tention on my pins with this method..i definitive gonna give it a try. Hehe..looking forward to receive my 48" toxic pilot,

I guess I should have wrote you can hear the velcro rip vs your bottom pin pop before your ready to exit. Like on a really sketchy or crowded exit point .

This sounded very interesting and it totally makes sense, therefore I packed my gargoyle with this method, made some pull tests on the ground and gave it a go on a jump. Seemed to work ok, will try this method out more but based on one jump routing bridle this way makes perfect sense on low stuff. Thanks for the idea !

http://markus.ufufreefly.com/selka.jpg
http://markus.ufufreefly.com/lappa_auki.jpg