Basejumper.com - archive

Would it be possible to post your shoe brand/style?
Is a broken ankle worse than a tib fib?
High tops have saved me on lots of hikes but only on one landing.
Thanks in advance,
space

I use Hanwag Super Flys. I guess it was a good thing I had one on my good leg today when I slipped and fell down.

Although a broken Tib-Fib may hurt more (because of more soft tissue damage surrounding the fractured bone which is a pretty large bone), generally I'd pick a mid-shaft tib fib fracture over many ankle fractures. Basically if the ankle mortise (joint) is disrupted (ie sprung open) then it needs to be fixed very carefully to make sure it works smoothly. Many of the ligaments may be torn as well as the bones broken. Many people get arthritis in that joint later in life once its disrupted, and sometimes the talus bone (top foot bone) has damage to its dome and cartilage that can't be properly repaired. Finally the heel bone (calcaneus) is kinda a disaster if its broken and often never is right after repair. The middle of the tibia, however, is pretty easy to fix with a rod thru it, there are no moving parts to mess with, and it heals well. So a good boot that protects the ankle at the expense of the middle of the tibia seems like an overall good idea to me, I'd be interested what others think. Now if you break the tibia at the knee (tibial plateau fx) this sucks too. However I don't hear much about this kind of fracture from jumpers - any out there get one? Seems like base jumpers are similar to climbers and other falls - tib-fib, ankle, heel, lumbar spine are the common injuries (assuming the canopy opens), obviously a free fall into the ground is a different story.

Based upon some workmans comp cases I have seen come thru my desk, an ankle sucks all the way. The doctor explained to me about one of our employees, "She will never walk again without pain, without a limp, and without remembering falling down the stair case. If you direct the insurance company to settle, remember to make sure she has enough money to buy canes for the rest of her life."

I knew a lady who busted an ankle paragliding in 2000. She still is limping. My tib-fib friends run as if nothing happened.

I am sure case-by-case examples are different, but I have an impression from a few cases, that ankles SUCK.

mid shaft tib fib is better (WTF?!) to break than an ankle.

there is no argument. there is VERY rare case by case events, as it was explained to me by my orthopedic surgeon.

if you cannot replace any piece on the car, only weld it back together, would you rather the CV ball joint and wheel bearing shatter? or the axle shaft?

I wear Super Fly hanwags, every flight paragliding, and pretty much every skydive or BASE jump.

I am fairly sure the boot does more good than harm.

my first tib/fib/ankle/heel-fracture,/moderate head trauma paraglider crash the boots did little more than keep the bones inside the skin, and as hard as i hit its amazing they did that. the second mid-shaft tib fib i did earlier this year the bone broke right where it should, just at the boot top.

PS- i can barely walk without a limp or pain, but i sure as shit can tell if its about to storm way better than the weather channel. metal sucks.

I generally agree with what you have said.

Soft tissue damage is usually worse longer term than bone damage. The main occasion where a tib/fib is bad is if it is at the joints and damages the connecting soft tissue there.

Bones often "weld" together more strongly than the original. They just need to be positioned correctly.

I have had 4 soft tissue knee operations (all soccer / football related), back operation (rugby + ensuing wear and tear). Broken bones in thumb (fight ), forearm (ditto ), crushed mid section vertebrae (hard fall whilst speed bouldering), "delta fracture on tibula (hard landing from fall from a really high rock with limited deceleration capabilities due to diminished function of equipment ), broken leg (bmx stunt), etc.

I feel the soft tissue stuff only (sore back, sore knees).

Chase up Plummy. He is a radiologist and has a good idea about them.

p.s. don't stuff up and it wont hurt!!!

p.s. free fall into the ground does not hurt. At least, not for long....

I was told this is a common misconception,

it can be true, and I know that it is in some cases.

Bone grows originally with a perfect span-wise 'grain', much like glassers use for carbon-fiber and fiberglass molding. when a healing growth occurs, the 'grain' can be somewhat random, or in the wrong direction. so, even with significantly more bone mass, the torsion strength is less.

I had a shattered tib and fib, with 180 dislocated and broken ankle. I would always go for the tib and fib break over the ankle. The ankle break and dislocation was the most painful thing I have ever experienced.

I now have to "warm up" my ankle every morning before I can walk on it correctly and not drag it behind me, and I suffer from degenerative arthritis, its not that nice to be honest. The metalwork and bone grafting on my tib and fib do not hurt as much as my ankle does each and every day.

I bought my Hanwags after my accident on the thought that my leg would break with them and not my ankle.

I've had both ankle and tib/fib breaks in the past 10 years and the ankle is FAR worse of an injury.

there is very little tissue at the ankle to smooth the bone of bone spurs that result from bone fracture healing.

my god, i notice the results of my shattered femur every fugging minute of the day, much more so than breaking the ankle ball off one side of the bone. the femur injury was a problem since bones sliced some of the nerves and it really, really bugs me. if the nerves had not been damaged, the issue would not be important since the thick overlapping muscles smooth the bone down by acting like a sponge absorbing the calcium. those friggen discontinuous bone regions will really bug you potentially for a lifetime. god, i'm too incoherent from last night to explain this in an accurate fashion. will post more later.

What he said...

I broke my Tib/Fib and fractured my calcaneus. I was wearing Merril Hiking boots with some ankle support. It was a compound fracture inside the boot. I didn't realize it was compound until they unlaced the boot at the hospital. I already had a screw in that ankle from a motorcycle crash when I was 15 and it had bent and lodged in the side of the boot so they had to cut the boot off.

It's been about a year now and I still have quite a bit of pain. Spoke to a Dr yesterday and he suggested removing the metal, 10 screws and a plate, so I'm speaking with a surgeon today.

The pain is usually not intense but it could be better. I wear Crispi Airbourne GTX now and they work well. I've done 30-40 BASE jumps since the injury with the first being done at Perrine in March about a month after the Dr said it was OK to walk on it. The hikes out were a bit painfull and I definately protected the ankle when landing, but I did 20 jumps that trip.

If I had been wearing the Crispi's when I had the accident it I might have been uninjured. I see people jumping without ankle protection and wonder why take the chance. It's not that much harder to lace and tie a good boot.

Han Wag Super Fly. It broke below the boot-top but the joint was fine and the bones stayed inside my leg.

I know this becasue I BASE jumped before "boots" where in fashion. It's like the "fusable link" in risers, you want them to fail before you harness does. In the same sense you "want" your legs to shatter (your landing gear) before your spine does . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I busted my fibula and dislocated my tibia from my ankle while wearing Crispi Airbornes. I think it would've been a lot worse without good foot and ankle protection. I hit the ground hard and fast. I'm still in a cast and on crutches 6.5 weeks later.

I bet you wish you had bought Hanwags now.

I would just like to say that this thread should be printed out and handed to every wannabe BASE jumper. Seeing this many people in one place talking about their injuries that continue to cause pain is very sobering. Thank you.

the general consensus is that the ankle fracture is worse

this is fairly well supported by the posts on here


I fragmented my Calcaneus in a snowboarding related incident that resulted in me taking a 30-40ft drop onto some rocks. (I also compression fractured 3 lumbar vertebrae and T12)

I did not get any surgery for the ankle and the reason for this was that the fragments were not displaced.

The fragments stayed together because I was wearing very hefty snowboard boots (Vans with the switch step-ins).

Had they moved, I would've gotten surgery and according to every orthopeadic surgeon I have seen my ankle would never have been very good again.

Now the boots I was wearing are far more supportive, heavy and impact absorbing than the Hanwags I jump with, but nonetheless, if you end up taking a big hit like that and your boots keep your ankle/foot pieces together, your prognosis is that much better.

Another thing I want to add is that rehabilition of ankle injuries is very important if you want most of that ankle's use back.

When my cast came off after 8 weeks, I couldn't put any weight at all on my ankle. Mobility was around 40% of normal for pronation/supination and 60% of normal for flexion/extension.

Through a LOT of intensive rehab, I got to about 95% of normal both ways after a year and I had also regained enough impact resistance that I could finally move at jogging pace.

I think it took me another 6 months to get to the point that I could run again.

I haven't heard of any tib/fib that required that amount of rehab.

I also met a street-luger who had a very similar Calcaneus injury, but he never took the rehab very seriously and a year after his injury his ankle hadn't improved very much at all.

So to everyone who is recovering from an injury: take your rehab seriously, you will be glad you did later!

Han Wags... in the words of JimmyP, think of them as a helmet for your feet and ankles. They've kept my ankle from exploding on at least 2 occasions, walking away with heel bruising instead of a fracture.

As far as injuries/fractures in general... if you're overweight, lose it. Slam a fat guy into a rock and he'll get hurt bad. Put a skinny guy in the same scenario and he'll come away with significantly LESS injuries... less weight = less momentum = less energy for joints and bones to dissipate. It's simple physics.

But more padding when you hit!!!!!! This equates to a bigger crumple zone.

 "mid shaft tib fib is better (WTF?!Crazy) to break than an ankle. "
Hi Calvin19,
Though I am at almost 20 yrs in the sport. I have not so much experience with injuries. I chose to ask those who had had this injury. I am quite experienced in seeing on site injuries, but not how they mature, thus my valid question. You can stick your WTF up somewhere and help us non injury professionals stay our course.
I did get injured on my last BASE trek. See the attached photo.
Relax and understand that all have not your great experience in injuries. You are a great resource for knowledge of the maturation of injuries but I feel you are wrong to to card me with a "WTF". If I need knowledge I go to the experts. But i do not take so kindly to condescending replies.
Please enjoy the the photo of my injury and come jump Europe with me. Where the hikes are dangerous and the jumps safer.
take care,
space

283,
the "WTF Crazy" was NOT condescending.

it MEANT that i was saying something crazy. I was surprised i was saying breaking something is better than breaking something else. it was meant to show my surprise in my statement. NOT to say what anyone else replied was crazy.

I am 4 years and 350~ jumps in this sport and I have had NO experience with injuries from BASE. but 2 large injuries from paragliding.

again, I was NOT saying anyone else is crazy. i was saying that MY statement sounded funny.

its like saying a bullet to the head is better than a bullet to the heart. between a rock and a hard place.

So, do you think I will recover from my injury or will I always be in pain or fear? There were 3 other injuries. One very experienced jumper had 2 blisters from new shoes and another broke his thumb. Take care my friend.
space

so, would say pg is more dangerous? do you have more experience pg?

haha... that depends.

I was a fucking dumbass when i started paragliding. I did not seak proper instruction, and i made a really bad un-educated decision, I also did not check the weather myself. thing that i learned to always do after getting instruction a year later and learning some lessons. I am the freaking after school special poster child of how NOT to learn how to paraglide.

THAT SAID-
a paragliding freind of mine, who is also an experienced BASE jumper, agreed with me when i said this.-

"The kind of mountain paragliding that we do, over a lifetime, is more dangerous than BASE jumping"

to justify this, we simplified the danger levels and times of exposure to danger.

for BASE, extreme danger is almost always less than 1min, and never less than 2 seconds.

in paragliding, mild danger can be as short as 20 sec, and as long as 10 hours.

I would say so.

My first flight course had three people. In the first year:

Me = two dislocated knees, broken rib, bruises that lasted months over 4 separate "incidents".
Person #2 = Limp for the rest of her life due to broken ankle.
Person #3 = fatality.

That is 100% ER/Hospitalization/Morgue.

And - this all off the "training hill" in Boulder (where I think Calvin19 also hurt himself if I remember correctly).

Statistics lie, but 100% is still a pretty high number with a sample group of 3. Considering 10% of all my landings under a rag are paraglider flights, and 100% of my injuries are paraglider flights......

"training hill" right.

and yeah, it was at the top launch at wonderland lake, boulder where i got hurt.

I know there was a smiley there, but I would have, and tried to buy large enough Hanwags from a number of people, but I wear a size 15 US shoe, and the Crispi Airbornes seemed to be available in a slightly larger size. I special ordered the Crispi's, tried them on in the paragliding store and they were big enough so I bought them.

In response to some old threads that I just re-read, I haven't been on any really long hikes with my Crispi's, as I'll usually wear something lighter weight on those jumps. I also didn't want to jump a wingsuit with them. I've also never tried to pull out the removable ankle support. I managed to get them off before I went into the ER so I'll keep using the Crispis when I jump again. I'll also try to lose some weight, as I was probably around 230 lbs. when I hurt myself, and I'm up to 240 now after doing nothing but sitting around watching TV and eating cookies for the last 7 weeks.

Do you think that the Hanwags are better than the Cripi's for BASE?

Stitches comment "i bet you wish you had some hanwags now" is asinine (stupid)

skiers blow out their knees frequently and break their femurs frequently because their boots come up mid calf and protect their lower leg, feet and ankles, BUT leverage tremendously against the knee and upper leg.

base jumpers wearing great big clunky handywags and paraglide boots are leveraging against their tib/fibs perfectly, while adequately protecting the ankles and feet

those jumpers that are jumping with skate shoes or running shoes, are letting the feet and ankles be more vulnerable, but impact always goes somewhere, and they are just more prone to mess up ankles feet over tib/fibs.

to imply that some stupid clunky boot could have saved the day is just a lame way add a new element of regret or throw some salt in his wounds.

maybe if he'd been in skate shoes, he'd have broke some feet bones, maybe the calcaneus. Thats a common one for base jumpers. we'll never know.

the answer is to just always jump with ski boots AND skis, even with a wingsuit or with no snow at all.

what could possibly go wrong?

WORD.

Uncle P'head, my comment concerning Hanwags was not meant to infer that. You're right, it's just stupid to say that footwear would prevent injury.

The comment was more of a Hanwag vs. Crispi comment. But now we find out Brian wears a size "15".