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Your thoughts on these two canopies?

Better forward speed = faster, more range, slower, or more control in deep breaks?

excuse my shithouse grammar. I'm just looking for opinions from anyone who has flown both canopies.

Are we talking about the old Dragon... or is there a New kind of dragon?

Rock Dragon is a new Apex canopy, manufactured under contract by Precision Aerodynamics.

The original Dragon was a Vertigo canopy that is no longer in production.

I have 36 Jumps on the Fox v-tec and 61 jumps on the Rock Dragon. The fox definitely has a better glide ratio. However, it's deep brake characteristics if you bury them a little to deep can cause the canopy to stall quickly in turbulent conditions and then surge very fast letting the canopy fly out of the stall. The openings on the ones that I jumped had deep and shallow brake settings, which the deep brake settings made for some strange opening surges that definitely scared me on some low jumps. However, the new fox vtecs only have one brake setting, which is what APEX found to be optimal for this canopy. It is a great canopy, easy to land and pretty snappy in the turns.

As for the Rock Dragon, It is a great solid canopy. Great for sinking in. It definitely is a "docile' canopy as APEX says. On heading opening characteristics due to the quick pressurization are better than average. However, if you need to make a landing area, the glide ratio is definitely less than the Fox. The Rock Dragon's "A" lines are not cascaded, they are home run attachment points.

The Fox is made by APEX in-house and the Rock Dragon is made for Apex by Precision.

I hope this helps.

I have a flik and a rock dragon both 266/Vtec.

You could replace 'fox' with 'flik' and I'd agree completely with everything here.

Both are good to me. I haven't jumped a fox though... yet...

_justin

Hey Justin
I also have a Flik and absolutely love it, so much so that I am ordering another one. I have it dialed in to the point that I can sink it almost as well as I was able to with the rock dragon. Just for clarification for Udder, the Flik does not have the deep brake stall / surge problems that I experienced on the Fox. However, the Flik did have a little bit more of a learning curve to dialing it in. In my experience, the Flik also has a slightly better glide ratio than the Fox. My personal preference all around, I think the Flik is the best canopy that I have flown (However, I have only flown the Mojo, Blackjack, Ace, Flik, Dagger, Rock Dragon, and Fox).

howdy,

so if you had to pick a canopy for primarily SL and 0-2 sec delays off solid objects, (assuming glide ratio was of no importance) would you use the RD or the Flik?

Also, were the deep brake settings on the fox customised for you? is this an accross the board problem that cannot be rigged out?

Since I have the Flik dialed in, I would pick the Flik hands down over any other canopy that I have jumped. I have 9 SL's on my flik 293 and 12 on the RD and see no difference between the two as far as SL openings. As far as the GNT - 2 secs delay, I like the opening characteristics and the performance of the Flik better.

Don't Get me wrong, the RD is a great canopy, however, I can stick my Flik in the same tight landing area as the RD and if I need to get some distance, I definitely get the glide out of the Flik.

The Deep Brake settings on the Fox were not customized for me as I borrowed it to see what canopy I was going to get for my turn rig. However, Apex realized a problem with the deep brake setting opening characteristics overall, which is why they do not offer them on the Fox anymore.

As far as the canopies for my turn rigs, I am going with the Flik again. It just works for me. This is the common consensus among Flik owners that I know.

I hope this helps.

Deep Brake settings need to be customized to the jumpers individual body weight. If you were jumping a "deeper" setting that wasn't customized to your weight, you were not jumping a true "Deep Brake Setting" which changes for every jumper and canopy combination.

I have customized both FOX and Flik canopies to find appropriate DBS for individual jumpers. When properly set, they work just the same as DBS on any other canopy.

What you experienced was probably an overly deep brake setting causing backsurge at opening and/or deployment stall (more common in a tailwind, and much more common with a vented canopy). Were you jumping either a vented canopy, or in a tailwind?



This is incorrect. A non-customized "deep" brake setting (I believe it's 4 inches above the standard setting, but I could be wrong about the measurement) is an option on every Apex canopy. It's near the top of the order form, just below "5th Control Line" and just above "Slider Type" on the Dagger, Rock Dragon and Flik order forms. I don't have a FOX order form on my desk, but I'd bet it's on there, too.

Hi Tom~
I realize the deep brake settings can be customized to every jumper, however, The fox is the only canopy that I have jumped to where the standard settings caused this problem. When I experienced the opening characteristics on the fox, there we several different locations and jump scenarios: LB, Kjerag, KL, LOCAL Socal, and The Go Fast Games. All slider ups were fine, except for the deep brake flight in Turbulent Conditions. Slider off jumps, deep brake settings were all the same results. Canopy was vented, slight tailwind on some of the jumps, however, maybe 1-2 MPH tops. Others were no tail winds at all and had the same results. I am not the only one to experience these problems. A friend (rigger) from Socal who bought a Mojo from you had the same experience on a totally different Fox canopy.

THIS QUOTE BELOW IS DIRECTLY FROM APEX'S WEBSITE UNDER THE FOX DESCRIPTION:

"Note: We no longer make the multiple brake settings a standard feature. We have went to a single brake setting we feel is optimal for the canopy in terms of openings, opening surge and rear riser controllability."

The deal is you can get a deep brake setting as a no cost option on the Fox/Flik as long as you don't get the 5th line mod. If you order the 5th line, you only get 1 brake setting w/no options.

I'm sure I'm reading this wrong. But are you saying that you used the deeper brake setting in a slider up configuration?

Interesting. The current FOX Order Form on the Apex web site shows "Deep Brake Setting" as an option with price "INCLUDED" on the fifth line down, in the "Performance Options" section.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll call Apex and see what the deal is. It does seem like they are saying two different things in different places.

Hi Tom~
No, I did not have the deep break settings for slider up openings. I was speaking of two different things: Deep brake settings and deep break flight. Deep break settings for slider off configuration. This is what gave the funky openings and the surges once unstowing the brakes. Slider up had no problems on the openings because of the use of the shallow brake settings. However, the only time that I experienced turbulent conditions were on slider up jumps. The slider off jumps were all sub 350'. The Deep brake flight on those slider up jumps caused buffeting and stalls much more quickly than the other canopies that I have jumped. I know that the steering line set was not configured for me, however, no mods had been made and the Fox had a standard factory setting. I am average body height and weight at 5'8"/185lbs. Now I would say that the steering lines may need to be lengthened due to the buffeting/stall, however, the buffeting and stalling only occurred in the turbulent conditions in deep brakes and not on any landings at all slider up, or slider off. I had no experience on this canopy in turbulent conditions slider off.

Also, most jumps with the Fox in turbulent conditions were either preceded by or subsequent to Jumps with a Flik or Rock Dragon and I did not experience the same responses with either of those canopies.

by opening characteristics are you referring to pressurization speed, heading performance, foward speed on opening?

Exactly. The RD and the Flik both have great opening characteristics. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I can only attest to my experiences, likes and dislikes. The RD is a great canopy.

The Fox is a good canopy. But there were things that I described here that I did not like about it. These things may be able to be eliminated by lengthening the steering lines and by the single brake setting that APEX now utilizes, however, I cannot say this for sure. I did not have a stall characteristics when landing, so maybe lengthening the Brake Lines an inch or two would not eliminate the buffeting and stalling that I discussed. This question would best be posed to APEX directly. This fox is not my canopy so I could not make mods to it.

Hey Guys,
I talked to Jimmy at APEX today and he is changing the single Brake setting info on the Website. The website has old information. He said since the Fox is an older design (BR), the single Brake Settings were what they were using. He and Marta discussed it with Todd and thought it better that two brake settings were a standard feature and not vice versa.

In speaking with him further asking why I was experiencing what I was on the Fox, he said that the deep brake settings must be too deep to experience those characteristics on a consistent basis. He actually has the canopy now and I am going to ask him to put some jumps on it to check it out.

Sorry for the misinformation.