Basejumper.com - archive

 

easy there... until you know FOR SURE that it was human rigging error, we should not rule out that the tapes did not break, or that the PC was a shady one. why don't you kids go get the PC before we flame homeslice to badly.

of course, if it was rigged improperly, lets kick him in the nuts.

I witnesed that jump from under the platform. I will be checking my video tonight to see what I can tell. From memory I believe it came off after line stretch. MTF..

Tree
EASY THERE
First off you don't know that the PC was NOT faulty, you said yourself nobody has seen it yet. Second did you know that it was the guys 3rd jump of the day on that PC?

Looked really quick at the video last night, The PC landed in the tree behind the packing area, next to a tree with red leaves from the bridge perspective.

more to follow after work...

Hey Tree
Dave Phillips here have you heard from donny havent been able to hear from him in awhile. Did he make it to bridge day? Hope Twin Falls has been good to you.

 
why do you say "third jump on this PC"?
Did he have more rigs than PC's?

I saw it the PC separate and it flew over our heads towards the packing area. I told my wife "That is one lucky MF".

I spoke to him after the jump and that's what he told me. It was his 3rd jump on that gear that day. The PC worked fine for the first 2 jumps, then came off on the 3rd jump. He was going back Sun morning to try to find it. There was a few people who watched where it had landed and told him where to look

If those load tapes all broke then that PC was in shit condition that should have been noticable from a gear inspection. Either way it's user error.

Aha, there we arrive at case closed, kick him in the nuts as Matt said. He should quit jumping and buy a lottery ticket right away.

 

is it bad that I see football and related human-fetch sports as just as bad, if not worse than bowling? Robots. everywhere.

I think it could have been a "ranger sniper"

never know.

did this jumper attach to the side load tapes and not instead use the center line loop as the attachment point? I've had side load tapes fail before.

I drove back to Fayetteville today for a wrap-up meeting and then drove to the LZ. After an hour of searching, I spotted the PC about 60' up a tree. I have photos of it and am planning on retrieving it in the next week so it can be inspected. More info soon.

I spoke to him, and he showed me how he thinks he attached it. If he did it the way he showed me, it was correct.
We're all human, and make mistakes. It's still not known who made the mistake yet, him, or the person who built it.
It was a new PC
Flaming either one, is a mistake at this point

If one was to connect the bridle to the apex line, below the radials, as in not incorporating the radials in the Larks head knot, then this can happen quite easily for common types of construction.
The radials will stress the apex line stitching leading to breakage and eventual failure.

Hope this helps,
take care,
space

I am not insinuating that this was the case.
But here is a photo of a way to achieve PC separation from the bridle on an incorrectly attached PC.
The blue arrows show the forces directions and the red circle with the red "X" in it shows the 1st point loading on the stitching (zigzag in this case) of the apex line termination. This point, loading on the stitching would be spread by the radials and subject to failure.

One final note:
None of my BASE specific PCs had this exact configuration of a free apex line as in the photo. The BASE PCs apex lines were bartacked to the radial's intersection. But it would still be possible, though more difficult to achieve a version of this incorrect attachment.

Take care,
space

Does anyone know if there were any remnants of the load tapes/apex line still trapped in the bridle end?? If the tapes were to separate from loading then I would think there would still be some material trapped in the larkshead knot, particularly if the knot was stressed tight as would be the case if it had been jumped prior.

Very interested in the outcome of this (as we all must be) and would be grateful if those that have access could go and get up that tree.

g.

Does anyone know what time this jump was? Trying to narrow it down so I don't have search through hours of video...

thanks in advance


after getting a general time period.... I was sticky fingers and turned the camera off... sorry....

Aha. Thanks!

I think it was just after 2 pm.About ten jumpers after the all black PC (para-commander).Bright yellow canopy.
Dave

This one?

Michael

Has anyone found the PC yet?

I just talked to NPS Ranger Fisher and he's going to try to recover it today. He's a climber and he contacted me on his own earlier today. It's funny how most rangers and jumpers can get along if we just communicate a little more.

If the NPS isn't able to locate it via my description, then I'm scheduled to retrieve it this weekend. I heard about three different official versions of how the PC was hooked up, so I'm interested in seeing what failed. We'll know soon enough.

My photographer got some great pics of the PC.

I'm working on the Bridge Day video right now (simple project and I should be finished in about 15 minutes), and I got an excellent top shot of the deployment. Obviously it won't explain why it happened, but it shows exactly when the PC became unattached.

Of course the shot will be in video...hint hint.

NPS recovered the PC today. It blew out of the tree and was laying on the ground. NPS is mailing it to me tomorrow and I'll provide further info soon. Then I'll mail it to the jumper. Cya.

PS. NPS was really cool with the recovery. I'm going to mail them some T-shirts for their efforts. Thanks Randy.

The suspense is killing me...

yeah, was there not 2 people who were going to go get it?

It's sitting in front of me right now. We'll post pics and other info shortly, perhaps tonight (for educational purposes).

Damn ! I'm in suspense as well.
Come on tell us what happened ?
BTW I just want to know for educational purposes even if the jumper did a mistake I am glad he's alive , if it wasn't a mistake I am glad as well, lucky guy!

Cheers
Gabo

come on man, your freaking me out. post the pics so i wont think about this tonight as i exit.

I don't think most people could hook up a PC the way this jumper did. No worries on your end if you know the standard way of hooking up PC's. I'm putting the finishing touches on a document that I'll post later today. I have to ask a few people to OK it first.

Here's one pic for ya.

To add to the suspense, I just received an email from Jason advising me to call a woman named Paula and "tell her... how you ran naked through the hotel hallways".

Honestly, I don't remember doing this. Did I?! I was too drunk.

If I did, I understand why people want to boycott BD.

Back to "New Techniques in Rigging" suspense...

Were you the guy with the sock?

If I was running wearing only a sock, it was only because naked Ghetto wearing the other sock was chasing me at relativistic speed.

Ghetto, did you receive the same email by chance?!

If you did, that would prove that it did happen, as the occurrence of two extremely unlikely events is relativistically extremely unlikely.

The suspense continues, and that's keeping me up nights.

OK, I've been given the green light by gear manufacturers Morpheus Technologies and Mark Kissner to post this document for informational purposes. Thanks to both of them, as well as the jumper, for contributing to this document. Although I've had numerous email conversations with the jumper, I have yet to hear from him today about the accuracy of this document. From all past emails and discussions, the following document describes how the jumper's PC was incorrectly attached, as well as the proper method of attachment. Your comments and corrections are welcome.

DOWNLOAD HERE:
http://www.vertical-visions.com/...achment_Incident.pdf

One item that was not included in the above document is the suspicion that the jumper attempted to replicate the loops found on Paratech Rigging PC's of the early 2000's. Apparently, these PC's contained an additional loop that went through the mesh windows and centerline loop. This new loop made bridle connections a little simpler, but in light of multiple PC manufacturing methods, it might confuse some jumpers.

very nice file Jason.


thats impressive. I hope that kid learned a lesson.

It's a good thing it disconnected after extraction. That is one lucky man.

The same loop style attachment is available as an option (standard on Toxic PC's) on PC's from Asylum Designs. Personally, it's my preferred PC attachment style.

A couple quick questions, if you wouldn't mind humoring me:

1.) What, if any, are other PC attachment methods, besides a larks head.

2.) When using the larks head, does the bridle material stay cinched down, and if not, is there a certain technique to make sure it does stay tight and doesn't open up, presenting a possibility of choking the PC?

edited: for poor spelling

.jim

Amazing.

Great article, but damn man, that's some serious hand holding. I just brained it through when I was learning that kind of shit.

A serious "swing and a miss" there. Glad you're still with us.

after the intial reaction of shock....

your documet suggests that the jumpers mentor connected the PC. Is that so ?

Also, what kind of person sold this guy his gear ??? :)

WOAH, Wha..?... No! I most certainly did not!

Looks like you were alone in that particular shenanigan

Hey, I don't remember anything between 9pm on Saturday and noon on Sunday, so everything is possible. For exampe, you chasing a naked guy in one sock chasing two kissing girls without any socks, well, without anything.

Remember? Or not???

I don't blame you.

The single attachment point on "Toxxic" PCs looks nothing like the example given in the PDF file.

If the statement about his "Mentor" hooking it up that way is true, then I would find another mentor immediately. Glad that some entity or otherwise was looking out for the guy.

 
Great report Jason, the cat is down to 8 now.

No, it does not. But it looks virtually identical to the attachment point on the Paratech Rigging PC's that Jason had referenced, in the part of his post that I quoted above, which he explained was something not discussed in his report.

If you want, I can bring over a Toxic and an old Paratech PC and you can compare them.

WOW!

It appears the 'mentor' in this case could use a bit more rigging instruction.
To connect a pilot chute in such a manner shows very poor understanding of BASE logic, rigging and equipment configuration.

Had this incident resulted in a fatality, it wouldn't surprise me if this 'mentor' found themselves in an awkward position, either criminally, or when dealing with the deceased jumpers family.

If the 'mentor' had given the improperly assembled PC/bridle enough of a 'test pull', it's likely the failure would have occurred on the ground, not in the air.

Let's be careful out there people.

BASE359

Ditto. <sigh>

(not at Treejumps)
Can someone give me credit for posting how it would be possible that it could happen and it was what happened. Thank you Jason for your diligence.
Take care.
space

How about credit for being the jumper's mentor?? Would that do it for ya??

Yes. That would do it.
take care,
space

Ironically, I sold gear to this guy back in June. He had 56 BASE jumps and 1100+ skydives. In addition, I checked him out with several experienced Canadian jumpers and they gave me the green light to sell gear to him.

Keep in mind that his "mentor" hooked up the PC, he didn't. But I have to wonder why anyone would NOT know the correct way to hook up a PC? Sad.

Space, yes you were mostly correct about how this PC was incorrectly hooked up. If he'd actually hooked it up the way you mentioned, it might have lasted longer.

The skydives sound right, but I'm pretty sure the 56 BASEjumps would be how many his main instructor/mentor has. The other instructor/mentor has less BASEjumps than that, I think.

These guys are building up quite a reputation for themselves, as their other buddy that they took jumping had a guy wire strike on his 3rd jump.

READ THIS PEOPLE: HAVING MORE THAN 1000 SKYDIVES IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER TRAINING, INSTRUCTION AND AN EXPERIENCED MENTOR WHEN YOU GET THE URGE TO GO BASEJUMPING!

Actual email to jumper:

From: "Jason/Jennifer Bell"
To: "XXXXXXXXXX"
Sent: 19/06/07 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Rig

2) Please give me your skydiving or base jumping details, so I know I'm not selling this to an inexperienced person.

REPLY: 56 BASE jumps 1011 skydives. I've lost weight and am downsizing.

----------

Several other Canadian BASE jumpers vouched for him.

So, 56 Base jumps is considered enough jumps to be an experienced mentor/instructor in Canada?? I'm glad I'm not Canadian.

Hey now, we're not all dumbasses. There's no need to be generalizing. You kids have your share of yahoo's too.



You'd be getting some good free drugs for that injury if you were

yeah... that is one of the worst things about this place.

Any idea if this is/was the usual way he and his mentor rigged their pc's?
Just interested how may time they have got away with it in the past.

OK, I've already spent too much time on this already. I'm being told that there are some Canadian politics affecting this.

-Jumper did have 56 base jumps and 1000+ skydives
-Jumper did NOT hook up PC himself due to time constraints, he trusted his mentor.
-Jumper is well aware of how to properly hook up a PC.
-I have no idea how many jumps his mentor has.
-Jumper has owned prior base gear.
-Jumper doesn't always jump with other well-known Canadians.

Live and learn. Cya.

That is also the way that climbers in the past have died.

Before they had adjustable, they used old fashioned Daisy Chains. And some climbers still do as the "new wave" daisies are dangerous in their own way.

But a climber clips into one of the loops of the daisy, and decides he/she wants to be closer to the wall, more comfortable, ect...

They clip into the next loop above. The Bar Tacking blows and there is nothing stoping them from going all the way down.

THIS is a common mistake "jugging" fixed lines. Because your distance to your jugs all depends on the wall..sheer, overhung, or slabby??


He is one lucky mo-fo Fo Sho... but its still the jumpers responsibility I feel. Mentor or no mentor, do you as a jumper know your gear, proper set-up, and know yourself??

Jason,

When you posted the first picture, I was like all he had to do feed the bridle through the loop and he would have been fine. After reviewing your further analysis of the situation, which I must say you did a very good, dilligent job with, it is easy to see the exact cause of failure. Hell, I'm glad my PC's didn't have this the secondary loop. the guy made a very simple mistake that could have very easily killed him. I'm sure many others have made similar mistakes and lived.

and a few have died, and so can we. CHECK YOUR GEAR PEOPLE. 1 time, not enough, 10 times, own your knoweldge.

 

Be sure of what?

Must be boring as fuck living a full deterministic life.

To all:

If you have never fucked up, one day you will, rigging or otherwise.

To the jumper: There ain't no fucking bucket orf luck!

very true. that is why this particular jumper should re-consider how he chooses to jump.

remember:


should rigging EVER be driven by "time constraints?"
(how long does it take to hook up a pc anyway?)
face it, we all knew BD was coming up. it was NO surprise. I fail to accept the "time constraint" argument.

if you can double check, do so. why implicitly trust someone when you can quickly check?
don't people look at their gear when they pack it?
did not this jumper make 2 jumps (and thus 2 pack jobs) before this failure?

Nick, you are right. everyone makes mistakes. stay in this sport long enough and you'll probably get hurt (unless you are MD). thus, it is best to minimize risk by controlling what you CAN.

"time constraint?" what, did they party too hard and could NOT wake up?

To a rigger and most base jumpers it was a gross rigging mistake. If my rigger had made that mistake I would be questioning most things if not all that he did for me. But to others it an easy to make mistake. How many skydivers have ever removed/reinstalled a PC??? Probably not many. There are several base jumper around now who think of base as a low skydive so understanding gear is a foreign concept.

I think of base as a very dangerous activity, probably even more than it actually is, so it's imperative to me that I understand how my gear works. I mentally go through my gear and pack job standing at the exit point before every jump. Some people complain I take too much time. I'm not really concerned with what others think at the point.

Tony

You do take way too much time...not packing, or checking your gear, but getting back to the exit point you lazy fuck!

[blonde SoCal mall chick]Whatever![/blonde SoCal mall chick]

After reviewing the photos, I have to request that I do not receive credit for foreseeing this mistake. I am a rigger and though I can see intuitive mistakes, this one is beyond my sight. That being said, I think that the person who attached the PC knows now how and the person that jumped it until failure nows how to check his gear before.
Take care,
space

Hey Guys, I am the embarrassed dumbass who hooked up the pc wrong, in a manner that I don't even know. I have hooked up many pc's in the past and have always rigged them properly. It blows my mind how I could have done this. Not paying close enough attention, when I should of been, I guess. I did give a quick check, and enough if I really gave it a good pull test, I don't think I would of broke the stitches, as they did. I am very lucky the only outcome from this mistake is my own embarrassment. I promise that this will never ever happen again. I hope people can learn from this though, and I thank you very much Jason for preparing such a great article about a very bad mistake. Sorry for taking up your time, you do an amazing job coordinating bridge day and I thank you for everything.
In regards to being a Canadian, American or freakin' Thai mistake, that holds nothing to do with the fact that it was a human error, and I am sorry, I am not perfect, I never thought I was, nor will I ever be. I know one thing for sure is that I learn from mistakes, that I make, and other people make, and grow to become a better person because of it.
As for a "jumper having wire strike" what the &^% does this have to do with a pc? from what i heard is he flew his canopy out of that mess and saved himself because of his excellent canopy skills and knowledge of the sport. Why feel the need to publish others incidents? Is this self satisfying? I wish you all the best and safe jumping!!!!! This is one lesson learned!
Adios Amigos

well said.
it is good you avoided the List...

hopefully, your experience will remind EVERYONE to be diligent with the details. something small can lead to major headaches. (see blue sig line.)

it has to do with the attitudes some people have when starting to BASEjump these days

as you well know, there are 2 groups of jumpers in our area, those who take a more laizzes faire approach to learning and self regulation and those who see things the more traditional way

In the last year, people in the group that you jump with:
-thought it was OK to go on the 6'o'clock news and point out buildings that were being jumped
-took a beginner out to an antenna in such conditions that a guy wire strike was possible, on their 3rd jump
-hooked up that PC wrong

so it goes to show the track record of that group


from what I heard (from him), he got lucky after the strike


so people who are looking to get into BASEjumping can get some background info on those they will get to take them out jumping and/or train them

because it happened at the only real beginner friendly object in OUR area (that includes your group, but also the group I'm in) and we need to be really careful with how we jump there if we are to keep it accessible

on that object, we shouldn't be jumping with beginners in wind conditions that make wire/object strikes possible

don't get me wrong, I do not want to deepen the divide between our groups, I just want to look out for the new guys' safety

in fact, it would be nice if we could all just get along again

pm sent
cya
sam

That would be nice!

After reading through this thread and the report, I'm curious about something.

Why is the stitching their cosmetic stitching in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense if that stitch was either 1. Not there, or 2. made as a weight bearing stitch so a misrouted attachment failure such as this would be nearly as easy to occur?

Just curious...

If that stitch was to be made weight bearing it would weaken the most important part of the PC, (right at the attachment loops).
these Darwinist's should just learn how to attach a PC the correct way.

Thanks Calvin, after looking back at it that should have been more obvious to me.

That stitch wasn't always on morpheus pc's. It was added later on. The first time I saw it was when I got a vented pc from them. So I would guess that it was added to help promote symmetrical bridle attachment. If the stitch isn't there and the center line is allowed to float it could be easier to attach asymmetrical. I think they were trying to dummy proof it and we always find a way to dumb it up.

Live_and_Learn,

Thanks for you post… It’s very admirable of you to step up and take on the responsibility of this incident. Although I feel your post is very admirable and I appreciate your good intentions, I feel the fault of this incident is misplaced. Meaning, in my humble opinion, I believe it was the jumper’s fault for jumping without doing a gear-check. Where BASE and skydiving are similar is the core understanding that in the end it is your ass that is on the line, therefore your responsibility to ensure you are using the correct rigging recommendations specified by the manufacture of the gear you are using. Granted, I do feel you compounded this issue by handing over a packed rig to your student, instead of having your student pack and rig in front of you. And ideally, the instruction should have continued at exit point, before gearing up, where the student would un-stow, inspect, refold and stow the PC, thus demonstrating a common routine before every jump. But again, even though I feel you could have paid more attention to demonstrating/mentoring instead of actually doing the rigging, I feel it is every jumpers sole responsibility to double-check there gear before every jump.

Michael