Basejumper.com - archive

There's a common denominator in these threads lately and it's everyone is indicating a level of frustration and helplessness. We all seem to know what the problems are, but no one can get a handle on what to do about them. This is something I've seen in BASE since it began. Individually we know right from wrong, and I rarely meet a stupid BASE jumper, as this sport doesn't tend to attract the dim-witted, but collectively, I mean as a group, we are morons.

Maybe we should try breaking the issues down into manageable bits and go from there. We have two major problems as I see it. The first one is to save lives. And the second one is save sites.

Now here's where it all runs off the rails. If you're the type that feels we each carry our own little BASE flag then you'll feel one, or both, of the above doesn't affect you. That worked for a awhile in BASE, and in fact it was the camp I was in, but the truth of it now is there's simply too many us for "every man is an island" to be viable anymore.

Next you have to ask yourself what is an acceptable fatality rate. Is this current situation of three fatalities, in the same area, all within thirty days an aberration, a bad run of the dice, or is it normal in the sense of sooner or later whatever can happen will happen? We've long had discussions dissecting the number of fatalities against what we "think" are the numbers of jumps being made. And it yields nothing but junk math.

My stance now is an acceptable number of BASE fatalities are none, zip, nada. Every single fatality is one too many. If you can see the types of jumps being made nowadays as "impossible" just a decade ago, then let's continue to shoot for the moon. We may not get there but at least we are aiming in the right direction. I never want to hear again someone say about something specific, "Is that really a problem, it hasn't caused that many fatalities?"

Then we have the issue of preserving the sites we jump. The problem here is we have legal, not illegal, totally illegal, and tolerated sites. Again break it down. The bottom line here is we want to jump, and there will always be someone who wished we didn't. The way of BASE over the first twenty years was, "Fuck'em, we are just going to jump, and just take what comes." However, lately we have slowly given up on that idea, whether you realize it or not, and started accepting certain rules of conduct as good things. We generally follow the rules at the Potato Bridge, at Bridge Day, and at various places in Europe. We generally follow the rules concerning urban jumps so that others can follow and be able to jump themselves.

What I'm saying is BASE is at a huge turning point. I think the issue of should we follow any rules in the first place is now mute. The question really is whose rules are we going to follow, ours or theirs? We are right now mostly following theirs. I can't emphasis enough that we are standing at a large fork in the road.

Nobody is going to like my suggested fix for the two above mentioned problems. And I've been on both sides of this issue many times since Carl Boenish was alive so I can anticipate all your arguments. We need to organize, worldwide, under one flag. We need a World BASE Association. We are almost already there with a bunch of smaller groups overseeing various sites be it a few jumping locals in Twin Falls to the Swiss, German, and Italian BASE Associations that are already in place. The problem with that approach is to a boy with a BASE rig and a plane ticket the entire world is his drop zone. If said boy is a Euro-Dog who comes to Idaho and screws up the bridge and flips off the locals he can run back home to France and he's home free. Consequently the Dumb-Yank who drops beer cans all over the trails and launch points in Norway and causes a scene in the local pub can also disappear back to Chicago and he's off the hook. Tell me you can't see where this will eventually lead us?

Okay, you're saying, but how do we enforce such a plan? Well the initial effort will be the hardest, the just getting the ball rolling part. But you'd need to be a member of the WBO "in good standing" and you'll have to have a "license" to jump period. No card - no jump. And until this becomes accepted worldwide we are going to have the hard work, each of us, of being Deputy Dog. I say we back it up with the confiscation and burning of gear and if needed followed by a solid punch in the nose. If you burn a site we burn your gear, if it's obvious you’re going to bloody our LZ we will first bloody your face. Harsh? Too much? You bet it is, but until everyone gets the point this is what it will take.

We then need to start holding annual non-jumping BASE conventions alternating their locations around the world where we formalize education and enforcement standards. Yes, I know it sounds like pie in the sky, but it's not and I know, like others have, we can do it.

Do you know what I'm thinking about right now? I'm thinking about that poor constable mentioned upboard. The one who's so depressed because he knows he's going to have to look at and deal with the broken remains of the next BASE jumper who goes in. We should be doing that! We should be cleaning up our own messes! We should have strategically located "Go Teams" that drop everything and head to the scene of the latest fatality to handle the family aspects and the investigation of the gear and circumstances. Eventually the local authorities would recognize our expertise and hand off more and more of the responsibilities over to us.

One thing we should consider is one thing we all already know. Money is power. We've never been in this position before but we are fast approaching, if not already there, that there are enough of us worldwide that our annual "dues" would amount to a considerable sum. Who would not consider, in this day and age, that 50 or even a 100 units of Dollars or Euros is too much to protect ourselves from ourselves and what comes from the outside?

So here's my proposal. We pick a date six months from now. We pick a place. (I could use a nice trip to Europe) and we finally take responsibility for ourselves. We then form site committees, education committees, gear, financial and enforcement committees. And, we get the right people to head these groups, and not at first, by popular election. We draft people into these positions. We already know who's good at what. We draft say Tom Aiello to head up the initial BASE instruction committee and we task them with designing a program that starts on the drop zone and bridges the gap between skydiving and BASE. Is it time to consider teaching from scratch? Does xxx amount of jumps on the DZ, on their own, doing who knows what, really make anyone ready for BASE? We must start not only asking these questions, we have to start acting on them.

We then draft say Robbie for the wingsuit committee and so on and so on. Ask me to handle our monthly magazine and I will, because we are going to have to be like the Mafia at first, and these are all offers you can’t refuse. You're in – or you're out – for keeps.

As I said, I've been on both sides, and argued both sides of this organization issue over the years. I hear you saying that's not BASE anymore its skydiving! But I'm here to tell you BASE hasn't been BASE in the traditional sense for a very long time now. We are blind men all stumbling down the same road. And that right there is how we differ from skydiving. In that sport they must deal worldwide with different aeronautical entities. We have the FAA and the rest of the world has what they have. So even skydiving, as organized as it seems, is fragmented. On the other hand BASE jumping is BASE jumping all over the world. One person, one rig, one site, one world.

I think the time is finally right. We have it in our grasp to take control over our destiny. If we don’t we are going to have our destiny handed to us . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Im out - but have fun

/Helge

Nick's right. But I also know the mentality of the average jumper and that doesn't coincide with having a governing body. More than 5 years ago over at Blinc, my suggestions for increased self-regulation at the Perrine were met with angry responses. I know jumpers won't welcome any governing body with open arms, but hopefully some of you will dig deep in Nick's post and attempt to look into the future.

It's only a matter of time before the next cliff gets shut down. I can think of a handful of objects that are now closed due to injuries, rescues, fatalities, or misuse.

If we want people to take us seriously, we need a governing body. Is it really that much trouble to follow a few rules and pay some dues to an organization that'll fight to open new sites and protect current ones?

We either govern ourselves or someone else will. I'll choose the former. Sign me up....

Analyzing the future of BASE it's not clear to me that the mass will ever be great enough to create any real power. Most of the extreme sports entusiasts think BASE is a pretty crazy activity not to mention the average Joe. However, I don't think any of us know how big of a mass there currently is or may be. With this in mind an organization where numbers could start to be formalized would let us know how much leverage we really have and would help us decide what fights to pick.

I think it would be cool to have the financial where-with-all to deal with BASE incidents and such ourselves. As Nick said, everyone is already doing much of this independently, but if our efforts were a little more credible to the general public we wouldn't experience things like happened when AK got hurt and was left hanging for two hours while the "authorities" figured out what to do and a court case like Jeb's could be planned and discussed based on what works as a whole rather than a single-sided effort by one person. The lawyers involved in these types of things would gain experience and put a case history together that could improve our position as time progresses.

I've been noticing more and more organized BASE events and they seem to be working. Injuries are generally down at these types of events and public acceptance is on the rise. But again it's a few individuals that are bringing this about rather than an organization.

There's much more to say about this but I'll stop for now and let someone else speak.

Now THAT'S a nugget!

Didn't I already join the (a) World BASE Assn. in the late 80's or early 90's?

BASE359

Yes Jay, you did, and your dues are seriously in arrears . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I would like to look into climbing associations rather than skydiving! climbing operating with guidelines, and skydiving have more specific rules written down And we pretty much have the same playground as climbers!

 

It May have come to this. I'm not that much better of a rule follower then the rest of you but I've felt for a long time that the out law era is at an end. I never really got to enjoy the old days of walking past guards with my rig on. It was before my time. We're past that into a new world. Base is no longer secret and never will be again. The future lies in the light not hiding in the darkness. For a while now I've been avoiding illegal jumps. There are a lot of things I've wanted to do. There have been buildings that have gone up in my back yard. There are towers out there in the desert on NPS land. The first time I saw the cliff across the river my eyes snapped left and I said that that was a jump. Hell I was talking about swimming it with my rig in a bag. I even had the point that I would start climbing picked out. Luckily the guys I was with talked me out of it. We had no idea it was hot at the time. Ever since I've resisted the temptation. I refuse to be the guy that gets busted there. Becoming respectable is the only way that any of the parks will ever become open to us. Even the sites we have now are likely to be closed if some thing doesn't change. It's a steep slope. It's easy to slide down but very hard to climb back to legality.

Rather then berried this idea let's talk about some of the benefits. Beyond a unified voice to speak for us. A world organization might be able offer insurance. With enough people we might be able to afford rescue insurance. Once there is a respectable track record we might be able to find a company to offer insurance but that will not happen till there are real numbers out in the light on the books. Hell we might be able to self insure. Example. How many medivacs have there been in Moab? Three Four? Lets say there were ten. One ever two years. How many jumpers visit a year. 500? For ten bucks you get your Moab stamp on your license for the year. Shows you've met the requirements to jump there and have paid your ten dollar rescue fee for the year. That's ten grand to pay for a chopper flight. The price is actually less. Once you have a bit of a slush fund it starts to produce its own return. As an example I'll use airplanes. High dollar high risk item. It's hard to get insurance it's bloody expensive. If you work the numbers self insuring is a very real option. Some thing like that can remove a lot of barriers. The ability to buy a bond for a building demo. Beyond just having the money they're a lot more willing to deal with a world wide group then just some guy.

A real organization could open doors that would forever be closed to us. And one day we can wave to the nice ranger as we exit off ElCap with out him shooting us in the back as we launch.

Lee

The playgrounds are only similar with cliffs and not the rest of BASE jumping. And while there's been a thaw in climbing/BASE relations recently they have their own problems with access and their own people who don't follow the program. I doubt they'd want to tack on our baggage . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I did not say we where to adopt totally but look into their way of organizations, neither cooperate with them. I dont think we can manage to regulate base as skydiving! Anyway Kjerag is an easy place to regulate since there is need for transport out of the area if you not only jump smellveggen!

Oh, okay, I didn't quite understand you. Sorry!

NickD
BASE 194

When laws are outlawed, then only outlaws will have laws.

BASE jumpers are the perfect mixture of brilliance and extreme cluelessness.

Andy Calistrat formed the World BASE Association back in the 80s I believe.

BASE has become so common place that it doesn't seem that interesting anymore.

Sign me up

An organizational body would be nice, I agree.. it would probably do good for everyone whether they would like to admit it or not, the only flaw I see is in the limiting of objects.

B - ok, you'll get a couple of events at buildings, but a majority of the time you won't get a key to the roof when you flash your magical "i'm a base jumper" card

A - antenna's would never happen, workers have to turn off power and use tie-ins. we'd be restricted as much as the osha(sp?) workers

S - you'd get enough of these, but not many... prolly about the same access level as bungee people or rapellers

E - best shot with a organizational structure



Worth it? for some people yes. for others, no. and there will be your major obstacle. I personally had more antenna jumps then anything else until I moved to the potato :-P

Yeah, ah, well, I was gonna send a check, but can't find a pen.

BASE359

I fail to see a viable path. it would be a drama-fest producing constant complaints of favoritism, etc. you dropped TA's name for training. he already gets accused of too much.

back to herding cats...
back to egomaniacs claiming "leadership" roles.

heck, even you have posted about the simplicity of just jumping at 3:00 am. there are too many objects! we can't watch them all.

in the US, the USPA has fought non-aligned drop zones. they can't get every dz to join. BASE has far more objects.

then, what would we model the new organization on? it would be a huge guess. the loudest ego probably would win. the odds on being functional are quite long. how many attempts have already been made?

our history says top down organization works poorly.

it also shows that bottom up organization stands a much better chance. local groups like SBK standing up for their sites. rules based on local, not global conditions. we need more LOCAL goups that permit us to discover what works, what does not. let these folks blaze trails and sort out new options. they can also focus on the sites that can be legal.

illegal sites can never be considered by a organization seeking respectibility.

the best large scale organizations simply document and put a stamp of approval on what already occurs. imposing unpopular rules never leads to longevity.

one massive global organization with one set of rules typically can do little beside insulting local sensitivities.

Good Luck Nick. As I've been telling Jean every since Carl died in 84 when she worked so hard to try to organize BASE jumpers, "Organizing BASE jumpers is like trying to herd cats". We ran Bridge Day for about 10 years and each year, especially after the NPS bought the land at the bottom, the NPS insisted on more organization but both we and the jumpers resisted. Ask Jason, he's going through it now at B-Day and has been for years.
I've agreed to help the ABP try to get some legal access in the US Park lands for cliffs, but it's a ways off. One approach is the best regulation is minimal regulation. BLM chose that route a long time ago but the NPS just got entrenched against BASE because of some unfortunate experiences at Yosemite. Times, people,equipment and techniques have changed a lot for the better. Maybe things will also change for the better but for now, good luck organizing BASE jumpers.
Rick # 38

I'm in. Tell me when and where.

hi Nick,

first of all I think it it a good thing, that jumpers all over work together. I think, that's the major point on your post. If not, please correct me.
My point of view is, that smaller associations are more flexible and because of that also faster to react if something happens at a certain spot.I'm afraid, that one big association is making it all very, very slowly.
other questions: is this WBO just "valid" for legal events, to make them better organized or safer or is its meaning to get more of those events? Should it be one regulating sytem for "hmm, today's a nice day- I'll walk up my favourite B.A.S.E. and jump it"?
How can you avoid "bad" jumpers if they aren't members and just do not care?

rainer

The actual base card opened some legal B's (to me) and saved me a couple times on B's and A's..........

And I heard I am not the only one saved by the actual card.....


Andre.

Notwithstanding the amount of good points in the idea in principle, I doub't if it will work:
Even at local national level there are many people not affiliated.
How can a world organisation control national sites, let alone national jumpers (unless they want to)

World governing sport organisations for that matter tend to regulate competition only (for financial reasons). Let control be on a national level. I could handle the proposed kick in the face by a fellow dutchmen (in my country), but I tend to have some problems with a US jumper kicking me in the face in Holland. See the problem?

Of course, this world organisation could try to organise the local national ones.

Ronald

 

I didn't say BD sold out. I only alluded to the fact it's the first year jumper registration slowed down. And my reference to selling out the sport was aimed at the glory hounds jumping for Red Bull and other corporations.

NickD
BASE 194

forgive my extreme ignorance here, but the BASE card, (as in BASE # registration?) has actualy WORKED on anything, ever?

the idea is a good one,....but i see the problem that the "good Guys" already behave with common sense, try to legalize spots, organize offiall events and take care...

the outlaws, the maveriks will go on like they did before and piss other people in the yard....

i see no way to bring all together,.....to form a strong assosiation that maybe will change the non-jumpers view on our sport...

when some base-jumper take care on everything and the next one dont give a damm...
we all will lose...
for many its not a sport,...its a way to act like outlaws...or better say maniacs...no brain,no pain....
the borderline between "good" and "bad" is so fucking thin....

but maybe we have to give it a try, or we all will be put in the same pot and get shot while we perform a Basejump....

Nick, I like the idea, but as elduderino said it will only keep the ethical jumpers ethical. The jumpers who already contact the locals, take care of their sites, and not blaze/fuck with/disrespect others sites will probably be the majority that join up. The HIDGAF types will just keep on doing what they've been doing.

Nevertheless, this might help the overall public imagine of the sport if there was a governing body of legal sites, while keeping your hands totally free and clear of the less then legal ones.

Something else that got me thinking, if there is an official list of jumpers from certain areas in the WBA, what's to stop The Man from nabbing a list of jumpers in a specific area? I don't know about you kids, but my favorite spots are where I'm not supposed to be. If I happen to make an entertaining escape from the blue and red, last I want is for them to know it probably was 1 of 8 people in the area...

Nick,
The way I see it is the penalty for screwing up is already at our fingertips. when someone haphazardly screws up and burns a site don't jump with him anymore, don't sell them gear.
If we could start cleaning up our image we might be able to go to city government say Atlantic city and have them approach a Mr. Trump kind of person to do demos for a big civic festival. A lot of citys have had big skydiving demos to open up regattas or art festival type events. Why not base jumps? A elavetor ride is cheaper than an airplane.
Our problem is when someone as respected as Marta or Jimmy askes everyone to be carefull this weekend, maybe dial it back just a little to help have a safe boogie, well? A couple years ago Jason asked everyone to not do extra jumps during bridge day weekend, and someone went from the roadbed on a local bridge, in daylight! Every year at bridge day there are people who want to use a 36 every stinking year.
What is so hard about respecting the sound advice of people who KNOW!!! The swiss have got to be thinking of shutting down base because we rugged individualist's refuse to police ourselves.
I am not saying don't jump at night, don't jump this or that. I am saying we need to think of each other on every jump we make, not to just think of ourselves. Because when I burn a site, or go in It will affect everybody else.
On the other hand if you are looking to fill the position of nose puncher I might just apply. Exept nose punching might not be enough.

Like Devo says, "we're through being cool!"

I was BASE before BASE was cool.

It's so extremely strange from my point of view seeing the secretive and intimate sport of BASE become so publicly known and sponsored by big corporations.

When the competitions came out, we all joked that it was like competitive masterbation. Kind of pointless and pretty subjective except in the most extreme cases...

I was cool before i BASEd. mom said so.

Nothing personal, just my reaction to the idea:

Whatever.

Groups of individuals may assemble into organizations if they wish so. But whenever I get to the exit point and some "deputy" with WBO swastika steps in my way and says, "No card - no jump" . . .

he'll regret that he was born.

That's all.

That's what scares me. What if i go to
france and waller out all of their women (where they wouldn't be fun for little french guys) and they get mad and burn my parachute.

Who decides who gets punched?

We just passed a law here is TX that it's legal to hang gear burners....

As far as the USPA/USBA/WBO/etc...

Great idea, that I don't want any part of.

And as far as gear burning as punishment? Now we're holding the gear responsible for some dickhead's actions? Another inaminate object that takes the blame, instead of the person? What about tar and feathering? Not PC anymore?

If anyone gets near my gear with a match, they better be able to run at over 2,750fps. That is all.

weak. we need A-10s

If you have a conference or whatever the hell it is, I would probably come. Hell, it's bound to be in a gorgeous spot somewhere, at very least.

On the other hand, have you thought about the optics of holding such a conference? Isn't the very fact of having one going to create more visibility and draw more heat?

Keep on trying Nick, it's a good effort, and if it doesn't work in the long run, well I hear Home Depot has a sale on Tar right now......

Dreaming on the internet again, eh?

Who is going to bankroll this group. Since all of these ideas take large sums of cash. Or will this group weed out all the riff-raff by becoming a rich-man only activity.

I guess, I'm out since I'm poor.

Hey Nick.

I see what you're doing here and i nearly fell for it too. You're testing right!? You want to see how many on here would sell away their soul to a governing body for the sake of a few easy access legal sites.

And man, i see you got some bites, some sign me ups.


THE ONLY FLAW. OH IS THAT ALL?

Were you born without a scrotum Karnowski? Are you so short-sighted and selfish you can't see beyond that fucking idaho bridge. You'd sell it all away for that piece of shite span.

Well take heart Nick. It'll never happen. It will never work, not on paper and not in reality.

I'd rather see every legal access site fall into the ocean before i ceded my right to jump how, where and when i wanted.

ian

What do you think the short-sightedness and selfishness of people who believed it was their right to jump how, where, and when they wanted has done?

>>Finally, some sense.

news flash butters. basejumping is probably the most selfish activity on the planet.

you may never understand.

How profound! Please explain, cos the last time i checked, each and every one of you still has the capability and right to go out and bandit jump when, where and how you want! No one (apart from you) is preventing that.

What you ball-less idiots want is to regulate and organise and structure and squeeze the last living breath out of the most pure, free and beautiful thing we have and turn it into something soul-less and despicable and absolutely the opposite of what it's founders intended.

Well, blather on all you want, cos this notion is such a fantasy, so intrinsically the antithesis of what hundreds of jumpers want out of BASE that it's doomed before it even flaps its wings.

The very idea that you'd try (and fail so miserably)to self-police (including restrict) bandit jumping in order to secure some limited legal access to sites which we can still bandit jump anyway. Are you for real? That's why i know Nick was taking the piss. It's the very nemesis of eveything he's ever talked about on here.

Grow some balls man and realise what it is you have before you try trading it for a starbucks and a fucking bridge.

*Stands and claps*


Fucking priceless

Hey Ian, I don't really see it as a policing organization. I see it more as a way to deliver a more powerful message to politicians and government. A single voice to aid in achieving whatever it is we set out to do. With some sort of dues/donation program we could take small individual amounts and create a bankroll that would enable us to hire lawyers as needed. Some of the advantages of this would be an increase in leverage in certain conversations, like with the NPS.

I belong to another organization called the Poker Players Alliance that is world-wide and is dealing with the recent laws setup to break down online poker. There are similar organization for other "deemed illegal" activities around the world, like NORML. They weren't created to take away from the experience. I'm sure the NORML guys don't run around making sure their members aren't smoking pot, or smoking the wrong kind of pot, or doing drugs other than pot. There primary goal is to get rid of stupid laws that infringe on a person's rights to protect us from ourselves. This is something we will never be able to do as individuals.

I realize you can go flik anything you want right now in the dark of the night and for the most part not worry about getting caught. Shit worrying about getting caught adds to the experience. This sport can be brought out of the darkness without losing it's sanctity. It's already happening somewhat.

I realize it's a major shift in thinking for most, but it might be quite advantageous in the long run. I don't want my name on some list that the cops can confiscate and use as a tool either and I don't need to be told what, when, and where I can jump. That's the problem we have now. If all this organization do is shift who the dictator is than it's of no use. BUT if we won only one battle, that with the NPS, I would be willing to put a great deal of money and effort into this idea!

Has this not been tried before with the ABP?

I asked a question and you attack me ... . You speak of the founders and what they intended. What founders did you know personally (if any) and what do you believe the founders intended?

And they may get there. It seems to me, from a short time after its' inception, the ideals of the ABP were a little too narrow. And Robin (I know I'll be receiving a PM about this statement), rather than letting the organization become something grander than he had planned, restricted participation and stifled the flow of information that is inherently necessary to enroll others in his idea.

I think we need an organization that's willing to say we're BASE jumpers and we're tired of the restrictions being put on us and our activties because of ignorance on the part of the people making the laws. I think creating the capital reserves necessary to show up in court ready to fight will greatly improve our chances of being heard.

Going back to the old arguments; climbers do more damage, hikers lose more lives, yet we are the ones restricted from access to Yosemite. Pure ignorance!

I don't think we will ever have unlimited acces to objects owned by individuals and corporations; the US is just to sue happy, but having an organization that these people can go to if they wanted to add a couple of BASE jumps to their grand opening would make some access easier.

As I've said on the Brit BASE Board I've always admired you guys in GB as you've stayed very true to the prevailing ideas of BASE. Your county produces less glory hounds per capita than any other and besides an occasional open crane boogie (which I think are very cool) BASE is still as underground as your subway trains.

But I'm not "taking the piss" I'm serious. You are correct in saying it goes against everything I've been writing about for 30 years. Yes, BASE is the ultimate expression of freedom, that's me. Yes, we can always jump at night and no one can ever stop us, that's me. And yes, our ability to do what we do resides in the fact we ask no one's permission or support, and that's me too. But there comes a time when you admit a certain amount of defeat and move on. I, and others who think like me, have won those battles, but we lost the war.

We lost the YouTube war, we lost the "keep you mouth shut" war, we lost the war of what one BASE jumper does never affects another BASE jumper. Yes, it was me warning people years ago if we accept the Man's rule at "legal" sites we would change the whole face of BASE. We went from a simple one rule sport and we added a bunch of new ones. And as surly as the U.S. was the guiding model for BASE in the early days, it's pretty obvious the "Euro way" is driving the sport now.

I come to BASE from the classic American way, you, Dave, come to it from the classic English way. The Europeans are doing it their way, the new way. And I dare say there are many very experienced BASE jumpers in the world now who have never done a great amount of, if any at all, illegal jumps. And since we live in a time of mass communication all our little BASE worlds are colliding. I'm of the opinion now that instead of dodging the ball we all need to get in the game.

I would like to see us progress "and" keep our freedom. But it's not going to happen. Say, for the sake of argument, they suddenly build a 40-story building in downtown Twin Falls, or somewhere close to an often jumped Euro cliff. Of course the building will get gang-banged by every BASE jumper in town. And all of a sudden the "man" says if you guys don't stop jumping the building you can kiss the cliff, or the bridge, goodbye.

If tomorrow the Los Angeles city council approves the 2000-foot BASE jumping tower being put up by one of us that hit the lottery, or enticed enough investors, don’t you think they might add an addendum to the effect, "as long as you stop jumping the other stuff around town." It would be almost like, "let's let the kids drag race in a certain large parking lot, so we can keep them from racing in the streets."

What happens tomorrow if a smart lawyer and enough money backs the NPS into having to let us jump in Yosemite? They are going to set certain rules, just like they did the first time they allowed legal jumping there. And this time the jumpers who bust the rules and get jumping shut down won’t have the excuse of, "We aren’t really BASE jumpers, we are just dumb ass skydivers who didn’t know any better!"

Now let's look at doing nothing. We just keep BASE the way it is. Well - just what the hell exactly "is" the way it "is?" It certainly isn’t the way it was when I started. Dave, you sometimes sound exactly like NickD v1.0, but I'm becoming NickD v2.0 and the reason is times change, and you change with it or get run over by the hoards.

When free flying first began we used to sit around Perris and laugh at them. We called them lawn darts, giggled at the idiotic hats and clothes there wore around the DZ, we scoffed at the idea it would ever last. But there was a freight train coming right at us and we were too stupid to see it, so we just stood there and we got run over.

When the same thing started happening in BASE I was smarter and I recognized it, even as I still sort of resisted it. But then people, some that I respected, started telling me I was hurting the sport by publishing the BASE Fatality List. Another time I got another tongue lashing for jumping in Twin Falls when a rescue was in progress. Again it was people half my age telling me I was fucking up the sport. This is in addition to jumpers who respond to my writings of stay the course, of don’t throw away the very freedom that created the sport, that they keep getting a BASE number, they learn the history, honor their roots and all the rest of it with, "who cares, that's all so yesterday."

It's time for guys like you and me to get on with it and get over it. It's time to come out of the shadows and stand up.

There is always a lot of "talk" in BASE about "man-up" so let's really do it. Let's stop thinking about ourselves and think about the future of the sport. Rather than leave the sport fragmented let's make it better for the next generation. Let's make sure less people die because they are more focused on not getting busted instead of the bridle that snaked under their leg strap. Why the hell is it that almost 20 years after Jakey wrote about them is his book, you guys still can't legally jump in Chedder-Cheese-Ville? I used to think. Just like in Yosemite, it's because we couldn’t muster the courage to just show up and jump and go to jail over it. But, do you know what it really is? It is our in-bred inability to organize and get behind an intelligent proposal, follow it up, and then keep within a few simple rules that would get laid out for us.

The future of BASE doesn't have to be imagined. It already exists on the rooftops of Malaysian buildings, it exists in the fact sooner or later a struggling radio station will figure out one day off the air with a 100 invited BASE jumpers will garner them more station recognition than a thousand radio spots touting their praises. It exists in our ability to suck tourists dollars into small towns with jumpable objects that are so far off-limits. It exists in something a long ago BASE jumper named Mark Hewitt said that at the time none of us really got, "We aren't criminals, we are just sportsman, and this is out sport!"

I realize now after years of protecting BASE from the light, and urging others to do the same, I probably always hoped BASE was more out in the open. Since I made my first post concerning BASE in the late 80s to the internet I've always signed my real name, I've always been NickD, BASE 194. And I always laugh when someone else who posts under the name "HuckingHowie" is actually someone I've known forever but never put the two together. So basically, we are just hiding from ourselves.

Another thing I realize now is I was mainly, and maybe unconsciously, only trying to protect the kind of jumping I do. I'm mostly an urban type jumper, and like many I love the intrigue, the planning, the whispered phone calls, and the secret signs thrown between BASE jumpers at a party of skydivers that they don't get. I enjoy getting up at two in the morning when the world, and the night, belongs only to us. But I just had a birthday yesterday and I'm closer to sixty than forty and it's time (finally) to put away such things. I want to jump El Cap again, but legally, and the time is running out on me. The first person off El Cap in 1966, my good friend Bryan Schubert, will never see it as he's dead now. And soon more and more of us will follow him. And so I'm now willing to give a little to get a little. If you think that's me selling out, than you're going to love what's coming next.

Everyone knows BASE history is my thing. And I know in terms of human history we are a special group as the first one that pursued true foot launched human flight. But all these years I've been conflicted with walking that fine line between preserving our past and maintaining our present. I could publish my BASE book right away, but blowing the big secret has always held me back. A cop having me by the scruff of the neck while saying to his partner, "Hey look Chauncey, we got the dumb fuck who wrote the book," has always scared the shit out of me.

But I also worry about using it or losing it. One big problem I've always had with Jean Boenish is she is killing the legacy of her late husband Carl Boenish. In her zeal to financially protect his films, his BASE magazine, and all that he did to start this sport, she is doing nothing more than hiding him from the people who need him the most, the newer jumpers. Jean and I are friends and have been for thirty years, but she actually told me to take Carl's photo off the BASE Fatality List unless I paid her for it. This is nuts, she has made all the money she is going to make. Carl's films, his legacy and history, should be free for the use of the BASE community because more than it honors him, it legitimizes us.

In that same vein, I have a lot of early BASE video I've digitized for posterity, and I've never for a minute considered uploading them to YouTube or anywhere else. But I'm starting to realize what am I saving it for? Would it be better for today's jumper to understand where they come from or keep trying to keep the secret that's really not a secret any longer? Do I die and let my current girlfriend throw it all in the trash to make room for her new man? (Just kidding, honey).

My generation, and maybe yours too, I don’t know, was BASE jumping in the womb kicking to get out. The current generation are toddlers trying to find their way in the world. I'm depressed with the fact we can't communicate without calling each other fags, and the constant references to dildos and ass reamings. What the fuck are guys talking about? Dave, you can, like I did, spend your life running down a dream, but the dream will sooner or later turn into a nightmare for you. It's becoming that for me, and maybe it's time for all of us to wake up.

I just re-read my above words before posting, and yes, I'm going out on the limb again, but that's all right, I'm wearing a parachute . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Nick

I don't know what to say. I really don't, so best to say nothing as I prefer it when we talk and not growl.

I will say this though. who's Dave?

ian

Sorry, jackass that I am, I was thinking SabreDave . . .

Now see if we all used our real names . . .

NickD
BASE 194

 
Is there an actuary in the house? Any one?

Ok, so a lot of people have to stand up and scream there defiance, fine. We've already spent too much of our lives doing the same thing to be interested. The quire has already heard that sermon. You want to make a stand? Try posting that on the NPS web site. I'm sure you can at least e-mail it to them. You say it's been done before. Yah you're right it has and yes nothing ever really came of it. Who's fault was that? Try yours. Tell me what you did to make it succeed? Did you join? Did you contribute? Did you donate? You may also set the fuck down. One of the very few people in the world that has actually been around long enough to have an opinion has seen fit to put forth this suggestion. This is one of the very few people in the whole world that has actually shown any type of leader ship beyond there own selfish little agendas. There are perhaps a hand full of people in each country that have earned the right to actually contribute to this conversation. I'm not among them I'm just wading in out of frustration and annoyance. A fine example of why this should be semi locked. Leaders of the national organizations, publishers of past and present news letters, organizers of large events, manufacturers, instructors, people that have made a real contribution like running the list over not years but decades. These are the people that ought to be speaking up here and the rest of us should just be quiet like little children while the big people talk.

Let's talk about the good things this could do for us. Back to the actuary or a CPA or a banker. One of the things Lee Slictomier, the owner of Skydive Dallas and our regional director, does is over see the finances of the USPA. He's the first really smart money guy they've ever had doing it. We need some one like that to answer some of these questions. What would it take to get rescue insurance. Either through a company or self insure? How many people do you need at what dues before it becomes viable? How about health care that would cover your injuries? What would it take to buy bonds to insure an event. What would an insurance company like to see in the way of statistics?

I'll bet this can be made to work if we actually want to do it and setting here bitching and whining about some thing that doesn't even exist yet is just pathetic.

Lee

Is there an actuary in the house? Any one?

Yes, well sorta. I am an economist and have done
numerous cost-benefit-anlyses for small businesses,
large corporations, and even while doing contract
work for the Department of Defense.

I would gladly run the numbers for any ideas you
experienced guys have for ways to make things
better the Home Team!

Cost/logistics/benefit

jumpers on this forum: 300~
Jumpers in the world: 10,000~

Jumpers in this forum who think its a good idea: 150~
Jumpers in this forum who think its a good idea and will follow along: 80~

Jumpers who are pretty sure that they/he/she is/are participating in the most hopeless, beautiful, gloriously free sport that has existed yet, and will take an organized BASE body with 8oz shot of 151 and hope he does not have to wake up for work. : (>1~)

you admire what the Euro crowd has accomplished. I agree. I believe it is part of a natural, as opposed to a forced growth. we need to build upon their experience, not co-opt it!

US jumpers by and large have failed to create a viable small scale organization. I believe you admit to participating in several unsuccessful attempts. why now would people want to scale US failures to a world wide organization?

I think you would serve your cause better by organizing something on a smaller scale. country, state, or even just city. bring a positive experience to the table. it brings credibility. (I like your observations and commentary, but that does not correlate into effective leadership.)

I'll support something if it is based on something that works. US jumpers really can't claim much (aside from Jason).

from what i know(~nil), the European crews do not have near as much legal adversity as the US jumpers do. they can jump many huge legal walls year round. in the US, there is few if any legal cliff jumping sites, save Moab.

and from what i understand, the only things in the US or the world worth fighting for are the cliffs. thats all i would fight for.

you make some solid points, but miss a key point.

NickD wants a GLOBAL organization. you want an actuary to provide numbers. well... for what country?

health care varies considerably from one country to another.
rescue services vary considerably from one country to another.
heck, health care COSTS vary considerably from one country to another. (that old national health thing...)

the variables would swamp an actuary trying to calculate potential costs. even in the US, different states qualify for different insurance rates.

global sporting organizations typically co-ordinate national ones. even in skydiving. the local groups know what is best for THEIR circumstances. this proposed organization ignores this reality.

o.k.
why not start at MOAB. they HAD an organization, at least for T-day. how'd that work out? a celebrated success? I think not. (and I respect the organizers. some participants clearly ignored them.)

i meant real cliffs. the ones that everyone dreams of. the 1000 meter granite beauties that cloud my dreams.

has anyone had dreams about 1 second delays?


(don't answer that, just making a point)

fair enough.
as you said previously, the legal realities of European sites differ greatly from their US counterparts. so how could a Global Organization accomodate both? would you effectively charge the Europeans for the legal fees to open US cliffs?

or the rescue angle. establish a fund and guidelines. o.k. how would that look in Mexico where one jumper described the need for self-rescue ability?

NickD writes well and it sure sounds great, but the rubber must hit the road. solutions to problems are as elusive as his book...

Im all for worldwide rescue insurance requirement. but will it stop there? i suspect not.

Typically I am an optimist, however, if you re-read
my only post in this thread I do not take sides or
make any judgment on this world regulatory idea.

With my limited time in the sport I really do not
know enough to make an intelligent decision.
Maybe you do, who knows.

In any case, the way most new things in this world
are created involve first getting it to work on paper!

Whether it is a business model, a new rocket, or an
economic policy it first has to work on paper. What
I mean by that is if you can not get the numbers to
add up in a conceptual 2 dimensional world then it
sure as shit won't work in the complex multi
dimensional real world.

How this is typically handled: a stakeholder who is
smart, mature, and has years of experience with the
topic provides their best estimates to the necessary
assumptions. Then a nerd, geek, engineer, actuary,
or economist runs the numbers.

Then the decision makers & stakeholders have
something more than just words on which to
base their decisions.

I largely agree with this idea, but I'm curious... What happens when you are a member and get caught either urban jumping, or breaking the rules at a local site? Who does the enforcement and who's going to stop you if you choose to say "FUCK IT" and still jump the top rail? What happens when someone takes someone to a site they are not ready for?

Ian

The vast majority of your jumps (and actually the majority of mine too), you HAD NO RIGHT to jump, how where and when you want.

You stopped having that right the moment you had to trespass on someone else's property to acces the exit point.

So please spare me the song and dance about RIGHTS to do bandit jumps.
There are none and never will be.
It is intrinsic to what bandit jumps are.

Where there do exist rights to jump are places that we as members of the general public should have fair and equal access to (until we smear enough jumpers' corpses onto these places the general public are trying to enjoy also, or live in and then we lose access and rightly so).

These are only rights in reasonably managed public lands and only so long as basejumpers can collectively behave well enough to have no more impact (pun intended) than any other users of said public property.

Arguing that bandit jumps are your RIGHT is like some punkassed kid arguing that illegal streetracing on public streets is his RIGHT.

I find it sad that you posted your preference for seeing every legal access site (that many jumpers worked very hard to obtain/maintain) be taken away from all of us, just so you can still feel you have the RIGHT to tresspass as long as it is for bandit jumps.

Nobody has that right.

It seems you have a great disdain for legal (especially daytime) jumps and consider the vast majority of those jumps as infinitely inferior and much less valid BASEjumps than your preferred type of bandit night jump.

Well Ian, I for one, disagree.

I love the fact that there are legal access sites that allow daytime jumps into easy landing areas and learning in a forgiving environment.

I hate the trend of people abusing these privileges and more and more people doing stupid things on these objects that make BASEjumping out to be far more dangerous than it can be (when managed well by each jumper for themselves).

fuck. I have written one of those longwinded posts I don't ever want to read fully.

Maybe you want to see this as the opinion of someone who only does easy daytime legal jumps and doesn't have the balls or perseverance to open some dirty building with a crappy landing area because it makes it easy to look down your nose at that type of jumper and dismiss their opinion as uninformed and not representative of real basejumping.

Even if I were that kind of jumper, that might be a valid choice and that is what basejumping is to some.

The irony here is that those people actually have the RIGHT to do those jumps, whereas you have NO rights to do your bandit jumps (and neither do I).

I wish you would come across as a little more tolerant of a different approach to basejumping than yours, because there are many valid approaches and belittling every one except the one you chose is a bit close minded and undermines any opinion you end up posting.

that's my 2 cents Canadian, which is currently worth more than 2 cents U.S.

Do you think you could send me the cliff notes to your novel...
Thanks
Ryan

 

All of the problems brought up here are valid issues. This is exactly the type of answer that I was looking for if not the one I was hoping for. I asked those questions not because I have the answers to these problems but because we need to find them. The solution to this is not to Americanize Europe but it may be to Europeanize America. Europe seems to be a lot closer to the solution then we are. And even there you seem to be having problems as evidenced by LB.

Rather then beating people with a stick the answer may be to entice them with a carrot. Insurance may be one answer. Offering rescue insurance to people who qualify might be one way of encouraging people to be more prepared. Example, you want to go to Moab. To buy your Moab stamp for the year and get that insurance you have to qualify with XX number of slider down jumps and accuracy requirements. If you don't meet those numbers you can't buy the insurance. The old guy that got choppered during Turkey was lucky. He had good insurance to cover the ride. That could be a big price tag if you don't. That alone could encourage people to join and qualify. I've spent as much time with my ass hanging out in the wind alone as any one. I got to tell you I'd be just tickled pink delighted to have that kind of insurance.

Lee

Sam

I seem to have rattled your cage. Oh well. Can't for the life of me imagine why but it seems to coincide with you watching my DVD, on which several of your comments are based

I'll be brief. You're wrong on nearly all accounts.

Yes i do have rights, irrespective of whether i trespass to jump. Both legal rights and human rights. What are you talking about? You couldn't be more wrong, and especially in the UK where trespass laws are entirely different to those in the US/Canada and i dare say South Africa. The act of trespass does not in any way deny me other basic rights. Even prisoners in Guantanamo have rights.

But thanks for the rather ill-conceived ramblings which conveniently illustrate why a world base association and (spits) licensing body (which i vehemently oppose in principle) will never work. Different countries have different attitudes, different laws, different cultures, different jumping styles which require different approaches.

I have "great disdain" and "look down on legal daylight jumps". Fuck off and stop talking utter shit.

I said i would "rather see every legal access site fall into the ocean before i ceded my right to jump how, where and when i wanted"

I'm not intolerent of other jumpers jumping styles like you rather pathetically imply but i will not tolerate others who try and impose THEIR jumping rules on me or who get all pious and righteous about bandit jumping. And that is precisely what was suggested in the initial post and was endorsed by others on this thread.


You're damn right i'm intolerant of such a notion. What arrogance! Like i need your permission, your approval to jump.

You take exception to me for being vociferous about the concept of a BASE police, for attacking the notion of a ruling body who have been mandated by people like YOU to try and stop me jumping. Is that because you quite fancy yourself for the job of Commander in chief. Darth Gows and his grip on the BASE empire.

It's almost offensive if wasn't such a fantasy.

You want to fight for rights to jump Yosemite then good on you, go for it. Fill yer boots pal. I paid my membership for the ABP and UKproBASE but i'd never allow either to try and tell me what i can and can't jump.

And that isn't up for debate. Period.

You think it's a fantasy, but one day you may land from a local jump, and a deputy dog of the World BASE association will be there waiting for you. He will show you his badge with the little deputy doggie on it and ask you to please lean forward so he can punch you in the nose.

You will say "What the FUCK????"

And he will pull out the World BASE constitution pocket edition and point you to section 14 part A paragraph III where it says you shall not land within 15 feet 3 inches of a chipmunk because some hippie might try to get the site that you aren't supposed to be jumping anyway shut down if they found out about it.

Then you will pull out YOUR World BASE constitution pocket edition and say "AH, but I am a c license holder, and section 18 part C paragraph II gives me the right to request an exemption from the chipmunk clause by faxing form 32C to the central office of the cute furry critter committee."

Then deputy dog will say, "yes, but before the exemption goes into effect form 32D must be returned to you signed in triplicate, and I see here that you only have two copies."

And you will consider his point for a moment then realize that you have no choice but to lean forward and have your nose punched. Then you will realize what a fantasy it really is.

In Ian's defense I too over the years have alluded to a "right to jump." But I don't think people who say that mean it in the literal sense all the time. Maybe we should be saying it another way and where it always gets sticky is when trespassing comes into play. But where would we be today if our earliest brothers didn't feel, in some way, that they had a right to jump? Carl Boenish had very boyish sense of optimism and in Yosemite he certainly thought we had the right to jump. In fact the whole debate there is about us being discriminated against, about BASE jumpers being denied the same privilege to recreate as climbers, hunters, and fishermen. And this is federal trespassing in the sense that if you simply drive through the gate of Yosemite National Park with a rig in your trunk and the idea of making a jump you have already committed a crime.

A lot of how you feel about a right to jump has to do with "when" you came to BASE jumping. There are still a lot of us around who were already skydiving before BASE was a sport. If you are one of those it is very easy to extrapolate the Yosemite idea to all BASE jumping. There was a PARACHUTIST article back in the early 80s and they asked a number of well known skydivers where they thought the sport would be in ten years. Carl was one of those and he said in ten years the World Trade Center would be allowing BASE jumping on a regular basis once a month. And I suppose many of us clung to Carl's philosophy that BASE was only frowned upon simply because "people" didn't get it. And if we just kept doing it the onus would eventually disappear. So I recall not thinking about breaking the law so much on my early BASE jumps as much as I was fighting for the right to jump.

And as self serving and maybe childish as that sounds today it did have the desired effect. Although it took a lot longer than I thought it would. Our Bridge Day, Potato Bridge, and the BLM sites as well as what's happening in Europe all stem from the fact that someone, at some point, thought they had the right to jump. Ian likely feel it that way as his early countrymen suffered big as when discovered they were BASE jumpers they were summarily booted from the British Parachute Association and thus lost the ability to skydive anywhere in the British Isles. That is no longer the case, and why? It's because a few jumpers still continued to back up what they thought was their right to jump.

The USPA, here in the States, now treats BASE jumping as a real thing. They, at least, admit it exists anyway. How many remember (or where even born) when they started down the same road as the BPA and suspended the memberships of the Flatbed Ten in Yosemite? How many remember a time when if you worked at a U.S. drop zone you had to hide the fact you were a BASE jumper or risk losing your job? What I'm saying is the reason all those things went away is some of us believed we had a right to jump.

If Carl Boenish would have lived past the year 1984 I believe his ideas concerning BASE would have matured. I think he'd now be saying, "Okay, we've hit them over the head with it long enough, they get it now, BASE is accepted. And now is the time we make a few moves to cement it in place." My old position of fuck the laws and rules and just jump started sounding hollow to me. I began to feel like the Japanese solider holding up in a Pacific island cave still fighting WWII.

A couple of things I'd like to clear up from my previous posts. Someone rightly tagged me for espousing violence to force compliance. That was me trying way too hard to make my point. I lived through the "Bonehead Wars" of the 80s, a time when more than a few BASE jumpers, including me, actually scheduled fist fights to occur during Bridge Day when we all came together. It was how we settled some things and I certainly never want to go back to that and it was a perfect example of when the good ole days of BASE weren't really. So within the "organization" we can use simple peer pressure to keep members in line. Peer pressure has worked for us better than many think as nobody wants to be known as the person who screwed up a site.

The other thing is, sure, there will always be those BASE jumpers who choose their own way. And there will always be illegal jumping. What we have to do is not pretend to anyone we can control the entire sport. We just have to say we can't be responsible for everyone's actions and that's that. What we can say is, "We are an organization that represents 5000 BASE jumpers and our members will agree to some negotiated rules in exchange for access." What happens if a town with a suitable object suddenly decides BASE jumping would be a good thing for them financially. Who do they call? Can they pick up the Yellow Pages and just find us? Chances are if they have a suitable site some people will already be jumping it. If they hook up with those people and make the deal we just wind up with another "fragment" in the big picture of BASE. If we did these "deals" under the umbrella of one name, one group, then every time we picked up a new site, the clout of the organization would grow and once that snowball starts rolling BASE jumping would become unstoppable.

Maybe some of you are right, and this is all pissing in the wind. But I can't get out of my head Carl Boenish saying that as BASE jumpers, "We are only subject to natural laws and not Man's laws," and that right there is where my right to jump comes from. And to that I would now just add, "In addition to such rules we deem acceptable for the greater good . . ."

NickD
BASE 194

And as 'tongue in cheek' as that was intended Gary, that scenario is precisely what seems to be advocated or at the very least if followed through to it's logical conclusion would be where we end up at.

An organisation without teeth is simply pointless. As Nick rightly suggests, this hypothetical access granted by a state or country would be conditional. And conditions mean restrictions and rules,which means a board or commitee to decide on them and a means of enforcement and policing.

So then what? Confiscation of gear because you wanted to do aerials from that cliff which was deemed too risky for anything but flat and stable. Revoking your license cos you pulled too low and got a busted ankle and brought the association into disrepute. Being alienated in your own town cos you like to static line below 150ft and that's considered too high an insurance risk.

It's simply ridiculous and unworkable, thankfully unpolicable and totally counter-productive - you get gangs of vigilante BASE police hanging out at the usual 'safer' sites looking to enforce the rules on the non-conformists, they'll go jump other places - at possibly greater risk. I mean you wouldn't want to read

#160 - JOHN DOE - John accidently routed his bridle through his leg strap whilst hurrying to escape a group of WBO jumpers who were intent on confiscating his gear

or

#161 - JANE DOE - Jane made an uneventful bandit jump off a well known WBO site but drowned whilst fleeing some irate jumpers who witnessed her jump and wanted to hand her over to the park attendants.

Cracking idea. I'm soooooo in.

ian

come on guys, i have kept up with reading these 1500 word term papers you kids keep pumping out for this whole thread. cant we get down to the one liners again? i don't much enjoy reading.

who's gary?

(one liner for Calvin)

Ian

I don't know what to say. I really don't, so best to say nothing as I prefer it when we talk and not growl.

I will say this though. who's Gary?

Gregor

...Actually I agree with you. However, I think the whole thread is a tempest in a teapot and very unlikely ever to affect my life in any way, and that's why I find it funny and not tragic.

I know. It was a poke and a joke.

ian

[in the US] much of skydiving started as non-profit clubs. eventually, they decided to unite to gain the advantage of numbers. as the sport grew, for profit companies began to dominate the landscape.

I like a combination of these two ideas. let the local groups decide site specific policies. let the larger organization document the commonalities. let the larger organization shop for things that benefit from economies of scale.

for example...
some sort of rescue insurance. the larger body establishes a basic contract. it only pays if you obey that organization's rules, only for specific sites. it really only lets jumpers purchase site specific insurance (a "stamp?"). different localities would require different fees. ('course the policy would only pay if the jumper followed LOCAL organization's policies as well.)

you would get local jumpers with local knowledge of local conditions still in control and you would bet the benefits of scale. there would be no reason to have "BASE police." there would be less fear of Americanizing Europe. people choosing to join would simply gain benefits.

maybe this scenario would help Jason open a bridge for jumping more than once a year. he might be able to create a financially viable business.

while I like this model, I'm not convinced we have stumbled upon the best carrot. as a group, we are higher risk, but may not have reached critical mass, yet. (I'm not convinced we have the population base to attract reasonable rates.)

and that is why we do NOT need fractions between BASE jumpers who choose to join your proposed organiztion, and those who do not. let's not repeat that past.

remember, non-members will believe they still have the right to jump...

thats because non members always will have the right to jump.

and i mean that in a USPA, USHPA, FAA, and BPA way.

Devils Advocate: It is not like we would be fractured... It would not be like be like having a SAM's Club Card. It was already mentioned that it could be setup as, you only benifit by joining. Those that didnt join would not loose anything.

ANYONE Non devils advocate....?

this is the stupidest thread i've read in a long time.

having made 99% of my jumps illegally and several hundred alone without a phone or ground crew, i will never submit to an organization applying rules of base. the only rules i will follow in this regard are ones created by the local scene and jumper friends.

>>this is the stupidest thread i've read in a long time.<<

I'm never made it a secret I keep an "unofficial" list of the BASE numbers. At all BASE events and gatherings I always pay attention and ask, "Whose that guy, and what's his BASE number?

I know who you are and we are coming for you!

NickD
BASE 194

Why does everyone think that you wouldn't be able to make the same jumps you make now? Make them, just don't get caught, don't post pictures or video, etc... (basically, keep doing what you already do).

groups and organizations crave power and fight for their own survival even at the expense of their own individuals. i prefer the "underground railroad" culture of base than anything organized in any serious way. the concept of an organization for outlaw base jumping is about as ridiculous as an organization for crackheads.

Exactly, and it's not like we don't already know how to do that!

I remember about two years ago I took two out of town jumpers to a local building at two in the morning and all went well. Then they went one time without me and got busted. They jumped it too early in the evening and they did so because they were from out of town and just didn't care. I like both these guys enough that I'm not too mad at them, but it just shows how easy it is to do things right.

There will always be folks getting popped out of pure bad luck. I doubt even if I was made the President of the World BASE Federation, they wouldn’t get me some night downtown. But what would that have to do with anything else? It's really all a front, like every other organization. Do you think there aren't lifetime members of the NRA that aren't full time poachers . . . ?

NickD
BASE 194

an organization for outlaw base jumping is about as ridiculous as an organization for crackheads.
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lol
I don't have base number so I'm out ha
I well just keep on doing solo than

Hey NickDG how abut start posting some of the old school base video ? especially using landing with round on a A jump to a solid ground not like now only on water, you have lot's grate video there is lot other can learn from it

I wouldn't be surprised if you were abducted by the NPS in the next 24 hours.

That is a very limited and pessimistic point of view.

you are quite annoying. have a good day.

for a guy who doesn't jump, you sure seem to know it all?

why would i want to start a civil war and end up like Abe Lincoln in Ford's theater? there's nothing in it for me.

seriously, i don't see how that opinion is limited and pessimistic. educate me on why it's not. organizations will act like individuals fighting for their own survival. i've seen it too many times to dispute this fact. it's of the same philosophy as memes as described in the book The Lucifer Principle - A scientific explanation of the forces of history.

>>I wouldn't be surprised if you were abducted by the NPS in the next 24 hours.<<

There's an real interesting story involved in my keeping that list . . . It all started . . . Wait a minute, someone is knocking on my front door, I'll be right back . . .

NickD
BA

just make up a false BASE number list of interesting controversial people, like Dick Cheney and David Addington.

yes, I remember hearing that story about a judge ordering Carl Boenish to release the names on the list.

I'm okay . . . it was just some Mitt Romey type Jehovah's Witnesses, but man these days, any kind of uniform rattles me.

Carl was asked to give up the "BASE Number List" in exchange for saving his ass after the Crocker Bank Building jumps in LA. He told them to go stuff themselves and took the fall. Jean, his wife, did the same thing, years later when the NPS at Bridge Day said no registration list – no permit. She out bluffed them when it became clear the reason BASE jumping at Bridge Day would be cancelled, was on the Rangers, and no funnel cakes would be sold. So the NPS caved. They realized full well the townies would come after them with torches and pitchforks . . .

NickD
BASE 194

it COULD be that way.
remember, NickD did mention things like punching others in the nose. that could lead to division... (certainly NOT hugs!)

Hi Nick, can I be a member in good standing of your BASE Club on the surface, but still disregard all the rules and regulations that you make, just like I disregard all the rules and regulations of the FAA, USPA, and dropzone?

Just wondering if you like me and let me into your BASE club, what you'll do when I still choose to jump towers under moonlight?

Just asking...

 
The idea of a single global organisation to effectively control our sport does not seem to be the most workable solution and trying to control ALL JUMPS is really never going to happen because not everyone wants to be controlled.

However, as it has already been pointed out, there are several organisations which are already regulating PARTS of this sport. We already have events such as "GO FAST GAMES" / "UK PRO BASE" / Malaysia / Heli-Boogie etc. All of which offer the participants something - access to unusual objects or recognition / status or the chance to jump in the day / not have to walk to the exit point.

All of these events are well attended and all offer some sort of rules - minimum experience / FJC's etc. So i feel that certain types of jumping regulation (in it's most basic form) already exists - if you are not approved you don't get to jump BUT none of these organisations seeks to control other jumpers in other regions / events ...

The world is getting smaller and we will always affect each other - American / European FJC's regularly teach new jumpers and send them back to their home countries - some take care to ensure that the new addition to the family is supervised and some turn them loose on the unsuspecting community.

Therefore a smaller cell-like structure of groups regulating events and objects by offering some sort of incentive seem much more likely to succeed rather than a single organisation which can never manage all of it's many roles effectively ...

Why can't bandit jumping be separate from legal events? - just like formula 1 or Nascar (well regulated and legal) is separate from the blow-out street race (illegal)

The two are quite separate. If someone kills someone whilst driving - DUI or road racing the lawyers don't all rush to close down NASCAR or Formula 1 - they dismiss it as something separate and i think that we need to apply this logic to our own sport...

By all means organise legal events and set rules and maybe entice people to join with insurance and free helicopter rides or glamourise the events with hot chicks - whatever floats your boat. But please do not try to ENFORCE your rules onto those that simply do not agree with you.

The two sides of our sport can remain separate and in my opinion SHOULD REMAIN SEPARATE ... Some people will choose to participate in both and some will choose to participate in just one type and they are BOTH EQUALLY ENTITLED TO THEIR CHOICE ...

I do not mock those who choose to only take part in legal jumps nor do i mock those who choose to only jump bandit jumps - they are all my friends ...

Remember - ITS YOUR CHOICE - Jump / Don't Jump / Legal / Bandit these CHOICES are a fundamental part of BASE.

As someone in the UK once famously said "and if you don't like it - then F*ck off"

James (No Base Number) ...

Well said!

>>RIP!

 
>>Just wondering if you like me and let me into your BASE club, what you'll do when I still choose to jump towers under moonlight?<<

Yeah, all right . . . You guys are all so smooth and cruisey right now. But wait until you're a man in your fifties (if you are still jumping in your fifties) and you always have to go first on the night building loads because you limp so bad you need the extra time to get away. Don’t come to me crying the blues then - well, you won’t be able to as when you are in your fifties I'll be long dead.

All I can say is I do really do understand what you are saying. I do because I've been there. I know more about BASE jumping in your twenties, thirties, forties and fifties than you do . . .

So what do you got?

Can't you see the rebellion is over and we won already?

You are going to look kind of funny running down the street with the skulls and bones flag with your bald head, goatee, tattoos, and gangster pants falling down around you ankles.

Seriously, you guys are starting to resemble fourth generation skin heads who simply won't give up . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I haven't been to this site in a long time. I read this first, and now I know why. It ain't gonna happen bro. Just sit back, relax, and wait for the next load. This is some funny shit...:) Back to packing.

That's me now and i'm 37.

ian

Its only going to be a matter of time until zimmer frames are part of our essential equipment.

Andy

In looking back I notice I'm bringing up this subject of organizing about once a year now. Maybe I'm planting the seed in a few younger minds and causing neuron activity in some old ones. So to wrap up this year's campaign just a final two points.

In the 1980s, even while I participated in several of the fledgling BASE organizations, I was dead set against the idea of organizing, and felt, like a lot of you, it never had a chance. So again, I do understand how you feel. But since I don’t want to become the modern pain in the ass version of Jean Boenish I'll let it go for now.

In the end I think, like it always has, BASE jumping will find its own way no matter what any of us may think is best.

Oh, and if anyone needs to look it up like I did - Andy was referring to one of these . . .

NickD
BASE 194