Basejumper.com - archive

Has anyone ever hit a bridge before and actually gotten hung up? I was just thinking that would be the stupidest thing ever.

Just itching to be the first to say something, eh?

You mean like this guy . . . ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t-wl7t4ywc

NickD
BASE 194

hahahaha.... what did you do?

Since you apparently heard about it or were there today...why don't you fill us in on it wiseguy?

where can i get a double PC style rig. i thought HH was crazy enough but two!!! do you know anything else about that jump Nick?


-nic

NOT FUNNY!!!! I was the other jumper on the 2-way. When the rescue team got him down, I helped carry him off the talus. I still have his blood on my arm.

The good news!!! His new helmet probably saved his life. He's still in the hospital, but other than a broken ankle and some cuts he is probably going to be okay.

Is that the helmet he was bitching about all day Sunday because it was at the post office? hmm irony...

You guys up there give him a get well kiss from me!

Ron Boyles if I recall correctly.

BASE359

:(

Wow Jesse. If I would have know it was a friend of mine at the time...I would have just reached through the computer and pinched your scrawny fucking little neck shut.

My bad.

http://www.zerop.net/...ips/bridge_strike.rm

Can't see the youtube vid at work, so I don't know if it's the same thing. This one is from Russel, the paraplegic base jumper that cliped it at Bridge day.

edit for clicky

>>do you know anything else about that jump Nick?<<

I have to head out for bit this morning, when I get back I'll fill you in . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Ease down there. Threats of physical violence are never appropriate on these forums.


Jesse, Chris does have a point that it was pretty classless to start making fun of an injured jumper while he was still awaiting rescue. Maybe next time hold off with the barbs at least until he's in the hospital?

Para Frog... humm Chris Harvey...humm Just not ringing a bell on the friends list for some reason? Oh and I would say that my neck is really more aerodynamic than scrawny. Lets make up and go do tard overs off a cliff!

That would be friend that got hurt slick, not the dumbass flaming him before he can defend himself.

Classless and not incredibly bright. Check.

When doing something like that you understand the risk of ridicule before you jump. I am sure he will be fine with out your online protection. Check mate! And that's the game folks!

Then I guess you should know the consequences when you rattle a bear's cage too...

Sounds even steven. Have a nice day.

well?? what happened? did somebody hit miles' bridge?... classic!

I'm back . . .

Ron Boyles was one of the original, if not the very first, glory hound. (And he's not to be confused with Don Boyles, who was a true BASE pioneer of the early 1970s). Ron's jump from the GG Bridge occurred in the 80s and at the time he was a wanna-be stuntman and shopping his "reel" around Hollywood with little success.

During those years every television series in production would sooner or later have a parachuting segment. So most Hollywood stuntman wanted parachuting on their resume. Ron, who was a skydiver of little experience, figured BASE jumping would be a good way to separate himself from the pack.

It should be noted that a few professional stuntman did it the right way by becoming part of the BASE community like one named David Nunn. He did a very cool technical jump from a low bridge in San Diego where he fabbed up a pneumatic plate that launched him out of a moving truck. David also stunned the wuffos (and more than a few jumpers) at an early Bridge Day when he hopped up on the rail and went over wearing only a white suit that was really a hidden BASE rig that Moe Viletto built for him. Jean Boenish had a cow over that one . . .

There's not much to say about Ron's jump as the video pretty much tells the tale being into the wind, and so on. But from his standpoint the jump was successful because it had the desired effect.

A few years later he did a similar jump from San Diego's Coronado Bridge. At that time we were quietly jumping every downtown building there, and the local authorities had no clue BASE jumping even existed and he really hurt us. He got hold of a big white limo and was clinging to the trunk lid as the car sped across the sub-300 foot span. Pilot chute in hand he went over the rail very unstable and almost killed himself again and the footage, which I'm sure he arranged, played over and over and over on the local news. To say we were ready to kill him was an understatement.

Not to sound like that famous preacher, but, I had a pipedream. I thought BASE would exist for generations in secrecy passed only from jumper to jumper. Think how truly cool that would have been if we had managed it.

I often get accused of bagging on glory hounds too much but that's only because, nowadays, they are harder to spot. But they are still out there. Sometimes they cloak their houndness in the guise of "charity" or whatever, but it still amounts to the same thing. And my view of those who place their jumps into the public eye is shaped by decades not just months or years. So while it may become acceptable by community standards don't write and tell me I'm behind the times.

We sometimes confuse "times" with a span reaching only from your father to you. In reality a hundred years is a better span of reference. We humans, both brilliant and stupid, usually take a bit longer than 30 years to figure something out . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Are you a bear or a frog? Pick one!

Not cool ... selfish.

base is not for everyone.

I agree, BASE jumping is not for everyone. But everyone should have the choice to BASE jump. Sometimes you live by them, sometimes you die by them, but at least they are yours to make.

So how did he hit the bridge? Is there any lesson to be learned or is this thread here just to hack on the dude?

Um... you mean the bear gets super pissed, runs around trying to break out, then gives itself a heart attack while everyone lese just watches from the sidelines of dorkzone II?

This is silly. Everyone knows you don't rattle a bears cage ... you poke it with a stick through the cage and when it becomes enraged and tries to break out you call animal control to shoot it.

we need to give tom and that weird red dude a dart gun

He did a TARD or TARD over into a head wind from quite right of center of span.

oh my goodness what a shame he hurt himself .i hope hes going to be alright.



in the dictionary sympathy is between shit and syphilis.

Here's the situation.

Two jumpers attempted a two way with the one jumper exiting unpacked more towards the south side of the bridge then our "typical" exit point. The other jumper was more towards the middle. I believe the jumper executed a TARD and obviously experienced some type of off heading opening and hit the bridge and hung there, like a piece of rotisserie gold, for approximately two hours until he was rescued. He has a busted elbow, ankle, and numerous lacerations to his face and legs. The good news is that he was making his second jump on a new helmet - this probably saved his life or severe damage to his head and face area. In addition, he has a very special birthday coming up in a couple of weeks. I've already informed him the alcohol is on me and that it's going to be great to see a drunk cripple fall off his crutches!

Jamie

This is a recurring theme in what I have been told/read about this incident.

Since it was so important... What type of helmet? Full face? Protec? Etc...

He's got a walker dude. Straight up Blondie style!

Here's the story and video of the rescue. Fucking excruciating to watch.

Rescue

He should be on in a couple of days with an after-action report.

"if his chute hadnt wrapped itself to the catwalk under the bridge, he would have gone all the way down"

?

naw,,,

I've always say it "why TARD it when you can TARD it over?"

I'm very glad the dude is relatively OK...nothing some patron and herb won't fix.

Yeah, this guy quoted here, just takes the cake. He called the hospital this morning to see how his "good friend" was doing. I dunno, maybe it was just too much caffine, but I snapped and went off on the male nurse, "he doesn't know the dude".

But what was really surreal, was he saw 4 jumpers go off when there was only 2, and he and myself both placed a call to emergency services at exactly 7:21PM.

It is not selfish, life is not always fair. The number one unspoken rule of any organization is self preservation, whether or not they admit it. Look at organizations such as the CIA and FBI for example...

The local take:

And while the Miles wannabes were on here flaming the kid before he got cut loose....

...Miles was headed to the hospital to make sure he was going to be OK.

Maybe you jamokes should take a few notes.

(and butters, the bonfire is over there <---, incase you needed directions back)

Day 2 Story

A community rescue
Monday's BASE jump accident first of its kind
By Cass Friedman and Jared S. HopkinsTimes-News writers

Last weekend, BASE jumpers from across the country and outside the U.S. visited Twin Falls for the adrenaline rush at the third annual Perrine Bridge Festival. Over three days, from sunrise to sunset, dozens of people made hundreds of jumps from the bridge, and not one suffered as much as a scratch.

Then, one day later, history was made.

In what local officials have called unprecedented, the local rescue teams were dispatched Monday to recover a BASE jumper hanging for two hours from the Perrine Bridge on Monday. And because the unit is made up of volunteers, officials said the cost to taxpayers was next to nothing.

At about 7 p.m. Monday, Andrew J. Karnowski, 20, and Kurt Gregory climbed over the railing. Gregory said he rushed Karnowski on their jump because he wanted to go shopping afterward. So, Karnowski, who was attempting a jump with his chute unpacked, gave the countdown despite northeastern gusts Monday blowing up to 22 mph, according to the National Weather Service.

When Gregory landed on the south bank of the Snake River his friend was no longer beside him.

Karnowski's chute caught "the wrong wind at the wrong time," Gregory surmised. The chute snagged on a beam under the bridge, swinging Karnowski into its cold metal face 150 feet below the bridge. Although he wore a helmet, the collision resulted in a broken arm, ankle and multiple lacerations on his body.

"There was nothing I could do," Gregory said. "He was stuck. I had no idea how much the canopy was hung up on the catwalk cables. I figured it was secure, but how did I know?

"I just knew time was of the essence for someone to get to him."

Calls were made to 911 by several witnesses. Two and a half hours passed with Karnowski dangling from the bridge before Twin Falls County Search and Rescue volunteers and Lower Magic Valley Paramedic SORT Team members safely lowered him below to a boat in the Snake River.

Karnowski recalls none of it.

"Andrew can't even remember the jump," said Gregory, who was with Karnowski at the hospital Tuesday. "He knows who he is. He can't remember hanging in the harness for two hours. Maybe it's just trauma and shock. He hit his head. Maybe that's why he can't remember anything."

Rescue efforts were completed just after 9 p.m. Karnowski was then life flighted to St. Luke's Magic Valley Regional Medical Center.

About 20 people from the county sheriff's office and a hospital emergency team were on site, said Twin Falls County Sheriff's Department spokeswoman Nancy Howell.

Howell, a county employee for nearly a decade, said she could not recall a previous time when the unit was dispatched to retrieve a jumper in the middle of a jump. Normally, responders attend to injured or killed jumpers on the ground or in the water.

"He was hung up on the bridge," said Howell. "Usually we don't have them where they're hung up anywhere."

There was no cost to having the search and rescue unit dispatched because they are volunteers. She said the only cost attested to taxpayers is "some overtime" since the county deputies on site were are already on duty.

Karnowski, a Twin Falls resident who recently moved from Kansas, will not be charged with anything. Nor will he pay for any overtime. Medical staff at the hospital told him Tuesday they may release him by this morning. He is able to move about with the help of a walker.

- Harvey

Right'on Harvey!

Haha, AK, you're mom is going to be pissed...

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! it was karnowski?!?!?!

i SOOO called that when i first saw this thread. i thought... 'huh, i wonder who it is. andrew just moved there, i bet it was him. poor kid'


Andrew, bro, i hope your doing good and in high spirits. casts are fun man!

did any of us flame him? no one flamed him. flaming is something we reserve for stupid stupid people crying mommy after burning down and while hanging from a guy wire of a massive crown jewel tower, or some dumbass kid who trusts his freind for checking the weather online before paragliding.

no one flamed as far as i can see.

it was a joke thread, no one died, andrew is a really cool tallented kid. i, without a doubt, would have said nothing different if i had known it was him yesterday. i actualy would have probably been meaner!!!

another thing Andrew, it looks like you hit your head if you cant remember it man. watch out for that shit. ask the doc if Razodyne will do you any good. i am so glad you were wearing your helmet. Now we both can say that, WITHOUT A DOUBT, a helmet has saved our lives.

you busted your ankle and you can walk with just a walker? WTF?

stretch that ankle dude... i would know.

CH

reason for edit; your mom

I gave Andrew a ride home from the hospital today. His injuries are fairly extensive, but not life threatening or permanently impairing. Basically, he's going to be ok, but it will take a while, and a few return visits to the orthopedic surgeon. He's a tough kid, he's got friends to help him out, and he'll make it back. I expect that he'll personally do the repairs on his gear (the harness and container looked fine--aside from the blood--when I inspected them today, but the canopy is going to need some re-lining at least) sometime this winter, when things get boring.

Thanks Tom.

Thanks for helping Andrew out Tom. I have no doubt you'll help him even more over then next few weeks/months while he's recovering.

Us Kansas folks are glad to know he's got just as good of friends in Idaho.

thanx tom. we were just talking about that last night (hope he has some one to take care of him) cuz I know he just moved there. Heal fast brother.

Rumor has it a hot blonde with a cane has been taking him milkshakes and peanut butter sandwiches.

He has plenty of friends here willing to help out.

Although, being laid up without the ability to run away and living under the same roof with Abbie would be terrifying for most.

tell the cripple he can borrow my cane from bridge day. and tell him to get online soon so I can laugh at him.

From that article, it sounds like his canopy was hung-up before he left the bridge. Is that true?

I was preparing to do a rollover once with a slight head wind and my canopy went under the bridge. Not sure of what was under there I reeled it in and waited for better conditions. After looking under there it looked like there was just some conduit and conduit anchors underneath the over hang. It doesn't seem like that would be strong enough to hold a suspended jumper.

Why is everyone being such bitches in this thread?

If you do a jump in shit conditions and fuck yourself up...you're going to get an online flaming...after all, you have no one to blame but yourself.

What is it about the Perrine that makes everyone throw common sense out the window? That bridge is becoming a death magnet...and I now see why many feel that it is actually negative for the sport.

That wasn't the point dude.

This thread was started while he was still hanging there waiting to be rescued.

That my friend - is fucked up.

There sounds like plenty of reason to criticize the jump - but anyone defending that timing is a dick.

edited to generalize

Just because the media says the winds were forecast at 22MPH, doesn't mean they were that at the time.

Most others know how conservative I am towards jumping and I wouldn't jump in those conditions.

The conditions during this jump were about 10 MPH on the deck, some what stronger under the steel and dead-calm in the landing area.

I agree, the exact weather for the time of deciding to jump cannot be known.

I bet it was totaly jumpable, and i would have jumped in the conditions you just gave. without a doubt. (i would have gone from the center of the steel arch, but whatev.)

I agree that the Perrine tends to reduce all sense in some jumpers. I think that's a huge problem, but I don't agree that poor judgment was a main factor in this incident.

I have a ton of connections in Twin Falls, most are not jumpers. I got several calls from family and friends in the area. No one mentioned bad conditions, including my father who is particularly interested in the effects of wind on canopies.

What I do know is that it was an unpacked jump, which in most cases, especially tards, have a low constancy in heading performance. Many jumpers do unpacked jumps from the bridge without much of a second thought. So Andrew doing one isn't a bad decision compared to other jumps on the bridge. I know that Andrew considers the effect of the wind on each jump, and a spectator could easily conclude wind affected the canopy when in fact it could have just been an off heading.

So that leaves us with not jumping from the center of the bridge. For an unpacked jump I do find that decision questionable. Though, there are other situations that do call for jumping from other positions.

No matter the position you see this from, we can learn a lot from this if we find more details and less opinions. Like, there are good reasons to wear a helmet, even on the "safe" jumps. Plus, he's ok and hopefully has a quick recovery from the injuries he does have!

What if the anchor wasn't solid and he had fallen before he could be rescued? With posts already making fun of him?

Yes, SUPER fucked up. I think there would have been more than one death that day.

It was a Rok from cookie composites with a top mounted camera. Brand new and busted up on jump #2. What a shame.

Isn't that a skydiving helmet? It doesn't look like it has much in the way of a crush layer.

Michael

Did you really type this Holly? You are more intelligent than to defend something with this lemming philosophy.

I completely disagree. First, doing a tard in a head wind is a bad idea. Second, jumping in a head wind with shallow brakes from a part of the bridge where the structure is still behind you when your canopy starts flying is definitely poor judgment.

when i started doing unpacked jumps the advice was to let the wind decide what you are doing ie, tards in tailwind, tardover in head wind, rollover in lightwinds, kiteunders or whatever in big tailwinds, gameovers in hurricanes etcetc.

ps im only talking about the bridge here, not goin unpacked off of other stuff.

What I was suggesting here is that many knowledgeable, experienced jumpers do unpacked jumps at the bridge (and other places of course) and we have seen through experience that they are not really any more dangerous than other jumps. Simply doing an unpacked jump at the bridge is not a bad decision in itself, not because other people do it but because other people have done it and figured out it works. We're all lemmings, and we all draw from other's experiences to make our own decisions.

Adam, I don't know the direction of the winds for certain at the time of the jump, so that wasn't factored into that comment. Also, I have a happy outlook on people that tells me that good judgment is different than making the right judgment.

from what im reading in this thread poor judgement was the ONLY factor in this incident. who else can his injuries be blamed on? the owners of the bridge?

he had a bridge strike?????? have you any idea how special that makes him????

he should have just hit himself over the head with a hammer and saved the rescue team a lot of time and effort.

I don't know about the Rok, but I just received an MXV from Cookie Composites.

The first two things I noticed upon opening the box:

1) It's light as a feather
2) It's terrifying how little protection the MXV offers.

Which isn't to say the MXV is bad - as a camera mount, it's very sweet. However, it provides almost no impact protection whatsoever. I was seriously FRIGHTENED when I picked it up for the first time.

All my jumps prior to the MXV have been done with a Protec ($30), and the difference between the two helmets really is night and day. The Protec may look like shit, but at least it provides some padding and impact absorption. The MXV is little more than a weak plastic shell with some cloth lining. It provides only slightly more impact protection than a frap hat.

Assuming the Rok is designed similarly, I doubt it provided significant protection (granted, I'm sure having a Rok is a far cry better than no helmet whatsoever - but I'd never count on it to provide protection from anything more than abrasions and some minor bumps and bangs).

I'd never recommend anyone jump an MXV when object strike is an issue or landing conditions are tight (and hell, in this case object strike shouldn't have been an issue - goes to show that a helmet can save your life even in the most unexpected of cases).

[speculation]
I'm sure Karnowski's new helmet provided him some protection, but had he been wearing a helmet designed for impacts, he might very well be in a much better state today. He might even remember the jump.
[/speculation]

Karnowski update:

Abbie brought Andrew up to Boise yesterday to get his coconut looked at. It appears they're going to have to wire his jaw shut. (Like he wasn't quiet enough). They had to run some more tests on him today, so Abbie left him at my place overnight.

I asked him some careful questions about the jump and it's a complete blank. He doesn't remember shit. Nothing. So we're left to speculate as to the errors made. And there were obviously plenty. Maybe it will come back, or maybe something can be gleaned from the POV video. We'll see.

Judging from the injuries to his nugget - there is no question he would be dead without whatever protection his Cookie offered. That being said, his facial area got friggin mangled. So make of that what you will from a protection standpoint.

But there's only so much any helmet will do when you kiss steel in full flight. The kid's suffering, and methinks his luck bucket just got dumped into his experience bucket.

He'll be alright. Cheers.

- Harvey

I hate hearing about this incident.

thanks to all those helping him!

Exactly what I was thinking. A while ago there was a discussion on dz.com about the use of Bonehead helmets in the BASE environment. In my mind, the discussion was settled conclusively when the manufacturers posted:

http://www.basejumper.com/...ost=1645013;#1645203

Composite shells are great for skydiving, because in that environment you mainly want to protect from small bumps, and they're a great place to mount a camera. If you're looking for a place to mount your camera for BASE jumping, that's cool. But jumpers need to realize these helmets are not intended for, nor tested for, actual impact.

If you're unsure why a thin shell is not enough protection, check out this article, which does a great job of explaining helmet design:

http://www.basejumper.com/...ear/Helmets_667.html

Michael

hey stitch

Since Andrew doesn't remember, maybe you can help us curious people out with a little info?

I know you have stated wind strength, could you please inform us what the wind directions were at exit, planned opening and landing?

Where did you exit from? I have heard 1/3 of the way out, above 120ft of bridge steel??

Do you and/or Andrew often exit unpacked from above that much arch?

Why exit from there? Andrew mentioned to me that it is a far walk to the centre, so it sounds like the choice of exit point may have been due to laziness?

What kind of jump did you do? (slider up, slider down/off, delay, etc?)

What kind of jump did Andrew do?

Was he configured slider up or down/off?

What brake settings were Andrew using?

Was Andrew's brakes still set when he was rescued/ the gear recovered?

Was it your/Andrews first jump of the day? (if not, what were conditions like on the previous jumps?)

Looking foward to any information you can share with us.

The bottom line, though, is that a bridge strike on any unpacked jump(known to man right now), at the Perrine can only be the result of one of two things:

1 - bad judgement (regarding type of jump and/or exit point and/or wind conditions and/or gear selection and/or insufficient experience for the jump attempted)

2 - On a jump with a high opening altitude (good TARD for instance) from the exit directly above the centre of the arch, with low-to-none winds: a something between 100-120 degree left or right offheading opening towards the steel (with or without tons of linetwists) followed by no effective control input for a LONG time while flying straight at the steel.

I can't figure out why number 2 would happen, but it is certainly a possibility, so I have listed it.

Anything else falls under number 1.

I feel for Andrew and wish him a speedy and good recovery, but that doesn't change the basic physics of unpacked jumps at that bridge and the only logical conclusion is that he made a very bad judgement.

Miles has more unpacked jumps from that bridge than most people reading this forum has (or will amass in the rest of their BASE career) BASE jumps in total. As far as I know he has not been injured on any one of them.

That's not luck and as skilled as Miles is (which is very), skill alone is not enough to achieve that either, he has made it that far due to his judgement.

Ditto.

I had my share of 100s, 120s and 180s doing TARDs, roll-overs, and of course with the I-rock and the dark-side drop under you open facing into the bridge. All those slider down and DBS. I perform them from the very center. There is plenty of time to turn around or fly underneath without hitting anything and enjoying the view of the steel.

Possibly Andy's exit point was not the best, but hey if you have never fuck up I can guarantee you that eventually you will even if you are not careless or complacent.

Seriously, this is post #73.

Do you really think that you are going to learn anything that is going to save your life, or keep you from hitting the steel at the Potato bridge next time you go?

If you want to post, and be the self-righteous BASE jumper, thats cool. If you want to tell Andrew that he was a dumbass and messed up, thats cool. If you want to ask him if the headwind was 5, or was it 10, thats cool.

He made a mistake, and if it was on a night jump outside of your house, it would just be another BASE accident. However, he lives in TF and some whuffo gave a video to the local news crew. Now he's famous, and broken up and hurt.

Seriously, is he the only BASE jumper who had too much fun, combined with a temporary lapse in jumdement, combined with bad luck?

What is that saying about casting the first stone?

wow. I'm happily surprised to see agreement and a good discussion (in 2 separate threads no less!) thanks. it gives people an opportunity to learn from guys who take this stuff seriously.

-----

I do hope Miles continues his impressive streak and remains uninjured. it is amazing. (sorry Nick).

You were the one who laughed at him and told him how pissed his mom was going to be...

Casting the first stone? Have good aim!

hahahaha.... someone left their account open on someone else's computer hmmm..... what to post, what to post... anyone need any trouble stirred?

NOT RAUK