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Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Just wondering how many of you jump with a helmet in Moab and if you don't please explain why not?
I have seen more than a few people doing this and I thought of it as being careless and stupid. Some even claim that they are SAFE BASE jumpers and are trying to be hired for events and film. Is this a safe message they are sending or a message of look I'm rad?
I suppose that if you don't have the brain to wear a helmet then I guess there isn't much to try to protect, right?
To me it's just too risky to not protect yourself.... at least a little.
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Wearing a helmet is a choice and personal decision. I don't think it my place, or yours, to judge someone based on their personal choices. It's just like using a cypres while skydiving, it's a personal choice.

I have a helmet and wear it when I feel like and don't when I don't...I've never worn a helmet at Bridge Day, ever...my personal choice. There's plenty of things I do to be safe an I believe myself to be safety conscious, however, don't believe that a helmet is always necessary.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Just to clarify-

How reckless are the jumpers with the skydiving video helmets? I have 2 and they wouldn't help against impact at all...
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Of my 300+ BASE jumps, 300 of them are in Moab. Wearing a helmet seems really like the right thing to do to me. This is just like the "do you wear a helmet while motorcycling" debate. It's all a personal choice, just like the jump itself. Will I make fun of you, probably, will I not jump with you, I'd be a fool not to.
Douggs wears a FULLFACED helmet at the Potatoe bridge! That's enough to convince me anyways. My 1cent right there. Have fun, but stack the odds in your favor.
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Re: [Spiderbaby] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Yup exactly, spiderBABY says it all . . . waaah waaah, I need a helmet . . . . give me a bottle . . . "if Douggs does it then I'll follow that ass anywear . . . gimmie a teet . . . waaaaaaaah, oops I crapped my pants . . . please come change me waaaaaah.

Helmet Schmelmet look what good a helmet did me!?! I'll never wear one of those stupid accessories again, they are only for total loosers - and thats all of you helmet wearing too gay boys and girls - if you want to try to be as cool as me (good luck!), and look half as good as me (no chance) then wear the helmet I wear, titanium implants baby!

pshawwwwwwww

DT
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Re: [Spiderbaby] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Spiderbaby wrote:
This is just like the "do you wear a helmet while motorcycling" debate. It's all a personal choice, just like the jump itself.

I walked out on the Perrine this memorial day, and uttered to a friend I was about to do a 2 way with "can you believe they don't have a helmet law in this state? it's absurd"

His Response was "hey asshole we are about to jump off the bridge, think about it"

I agree, personal choice. On my trips to moab in the last year on every jump I wore a helmet. Depending how I felt, I wore a fullface downhill mtn biking one, a halfshell protec, or a skydiving sidemount camera helmet....

It's all individual risk management and perception...

_justin
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Re: [DrThrill] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
they are only for total loosers...

I guess I'm another one of those total losers. Wearing a helmet has saved me from serious brain injury at least twice, and I'm a total n00b as far as fast or "extreme" sports goes. I will always wear a helmet for any activity involving speeds above 30 km/h or where a fall of over 20 feet is possible. The only difficulty is finding closet space for all the different kinds of helmets... Tongue
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Re: [DrThrill] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
DrThrill wrote:
I'll never wear one of those stupid accessories again, they are only for total loosers -

What is a "Looser"? Sorry I am in Germany and the only reference I can find is about wearing a tie or collar?
Take care,
space
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
hi,

i jump always with protection stuff. only on very bad jumps i wear full protection (legs, back, helmet). on tracking jumps i don´t wear full protection. but what i wear on every jump: is a helmet!

in my opinion it´s stupid to jump without protection stuff. in base everything can turn bad in a few seconds ... so it´s smart to get the most protection that can help. protection can maybe safe your bones or your life. it´s like fasten the seatbelts in the car.
for me it´s more important to save my bones and my life than to look cool. and you have to remember ... when you´re bones are broken ... you are not able to jump for a few weeks or months Smile that´s not fun!

greetings,

philipp/BASE 1130
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
SpecialKaye wrote:
Wearing a helmet is a choice and personal decision. I don't think it my place, or yours, to judge someone based on their personal choices.

so it is not my place to judge someone who becomes a crack whore? who never shows up on time? who misses work because they drink excessively? who constantly disappoint friends?

SpecialKaye wrote:
I have a helmet and wear it when I feel like and don't when I don't...I've never worn a helmet at Bridge Day, ever...my personal choice. There's plenty of things I do to be safe an I believe myself to be safety conscious

unfortunately, most on The List would say the same...Frown

Just my 2 cents.

p.s.
I have not heard a decent reason NOT to wear a helmet at MOAB.

a helmet once protected me from serious injury. I don't understand not wearing one in such an environment.
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Re: [wwarped] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
a helmet once protected me from serious injury. I don't understand not wearing one in such an environment.

A wimpy skydiving helmet, or something like a protec, or something more full face? (yes, I am taking this thread to the next step, which is to ask if a skydiving camera helmet counts in people's opinion as a helmet for their votes.)
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
BASE jumping is as safe as you want to make it. I've never met anybody who had a helmet and wish they hadn't, but met plenty who didn't and wish they had.
BASE 424
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Re: [424base] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
100% agree...

its like the hole bodyarmor debatte...Tongue

useless...let them who refuse to use cry and suffer and leave the other ones keeping the feeling they are safe....Tongue
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Re: [elduderino] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
quick question:
what`s the reason to not wear one on this particular object?
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Re: [shunkka] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
pretty simple,...

they are afraid that the helmet ruins the hairdo,...
or that nobody recoknize that he is the famous hero
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Re: [elduderino] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Yes and that brings us to the real, deep down reason why most of us wear helmets and other protective gear...
b4andafter.jpg
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Re: [wwarped] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Just to clarify a little as to why I'm not a firm believer of a helmet...yes, I do believe helmets have helped out people on certain jumps...however, March 27, 2004 I crashed on a skydive and my neuro doc told me point blank, that a helmet would have paralyzed me from the neck down. I fractured C6, had a frap hat on which gave me the flexibility to keep from breaking my neck worse. There were a bunch more fractures, but breaking your neck gives you a different perspective.

Again, it's a personal choice and we all have the choice whether to wear one or not.
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
You just can't base an opinion on one exceptionnel case. It's always the same fucking argument for car seat belts, we know from very good sources that it is almost always helping in a accident, but then you got that jackass thats says he survived his car crash cuz he didn't wear his while his girlfriend died in the car... Same shit for cypres.
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
well does that count stupied skydive helmets aswell?

Usaly i think that helmet is part of my gear equal to the canopy,i however has and will take the risk once in a while to jump whith out.

Wy?
Short- its worth the risk on that jump as i jump it,to me atleast

Long-its worth the risk on that jump as i jump it,to me atleast

Tongue
why do people go stowed below 300ft?
i guess they think its worth the risk..
we are all each to each own.. i have seen alot of stupied shit(in my eyes),and p probaly did a lot of shit(in others eyes)..

by the end of the day i calulate the risk for each jump i choose to jump.. If i think the reward is higher than the risk,ill do the jump.. the same thing about the helmet..
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Re: [UPS] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Yeah, well on the seat belt thing, my dad died last December. The car crash he was in on Halloween 1968, he would have been dead if he had been wearing a seat belt...and that's a for sure.

Call me rebellious...I don't have a cypres, I hate wearing a seat belt and really don't like wearing a helmet, either. If God wants me, he'll have me even with a helmet, a cypres or wearing a seat belt.
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Im sure that other people on this board have worked as EMTs as well, and will attest that the injuries from not wearing seatbelts and wearing seatbelts are on average drastically different. To me the "I knew someone who was thrown clear and then their car blew up" its kind of like saying I trash packed and had a off heading right on a low pull that avoided a cliffstrike and saved my life. Ok, that was 1 in a million that it saved you, are you going to trash pack and then pull low every time now, and recommend your friends do it? Sorry... rant. Just have seen too many bad bad bad things from the "this is why I dont wear my seatbelt" arguement.

Oh, and I always wear a helmet, but wouldnt really care if someone else didnt.
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
SpecialKaye wrote:
The car crash he was in on Halloween 1968, he would have been dead if he had been wearing a seat belt...and that's a for sure.

You said it: 1968! In those years, drivin a car or a tank wasn't that different.
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Re: [UPS] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
The skull is not quite as thick as you might think. The concept of a brain injury is a horribly frightning one, especially since brains generally don't fully recover if at all. Imagine losing some basic functions. Imagine becoming completely mentally ill due to a head injury.

John Bowlin, BASE 93, died on a cliff strike following a canopy entanglement with BASE 37. John died in front of his wife of one week. John would have survived if he had worn a helmet. I have had a helmet save me before. I always wear my helmet since I have a previous head injury from childhood that put me into a coma. The doctors made me wear a helmet for a month to insure time for brain recuperation and swelling reduction. If I take another major hit to the head, I will die. The benefit to risk ratio clearly favors a helmet. I think the risk of breaking my neck from wearing my helmet is negligible.
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
SpecialKaye wrote:
Again, it's a personal choice and we all have the choice whether to wear one or not.

agreed. as there is NO regulatory body (and I am NOT advocating one) you get to choose.

we differ because I think the rest of us then get to choose between:
great job!
huh?
you got to be kidding!
darwin at it's finest!
or something else

we both get to choose.
remember, people making highly individualized choices closed one US valley... it might have happened anyway, but I'd rather not have individuals harm the group. with freedom comes responsibility.

p.s.
congrats on surviving.
to both of you.
(you may wish to give up skydiving because it's too dangerous!Tongue)
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
yepp,...my grandpa survived the war and someday he shared some wisdom with me when he said:

"son,... who needs a steelpod when you get shot in the leg?"Tongue

youre right, its personal choice....
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Got to have something to attach the video camera to right?

Don't think I've made a single base jump without one. I've probably only made one skydive since I bought my Bonehead almost 10 years ago.

Dress for the crash, not the ride.
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
No. I'm straight.
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
NO
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Re: [chrisjudice] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Several times in my BASE ventures I have watched people leave their helmets in my car. It always perplexes me...you brought the helmet almost all the way to the damn exit point, and now you're over it. WTF?
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Re: [BASE864] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
Don't think I've made a single base jump without one. I've probably only made one skydive since I bought my Bonehead almost 10 years ago.
do you use your bonehead for BASE aswell?

In reply to:
Dress for the crash, not the ride.
if so the above is rather ironic..
Boneheads gives less protection than a helmet for a citybike..I would rather use a fraphat,but hey only becourse its more funny looking than a bonehead..

They really are just not worth the mony,they gives a fake impression about beeing safe,but then again you can attach a cam to them..

I surgest using a snowboard helmet or similar,slightly more heavy but it offers protection..
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Re: [1108] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
you brought the helmet almost all the way to the damn exit point, and now you're over it. WTF?
most of the times i bring a rig aswell,sometimes the rig goes back in the car again whith out have been used.. its called calculating the risk Risk/pleassure the same goes for the helmet.. i however use my helmet 98%of the time i jump..

Its a personal choice to use a helmet or not...
same as pads and back protectors..

whats next,should people tell me which brand of canopyes i should jump..

"if you dont like it... F#CK off!!!" Tongue
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Re: [Faber] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Dude, I never wear a helmet in Moab, ever. I might one day though...
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
The conversation about "Do you wear <insert protective gear item>?" has come several times during the time I've been jumping. It's a heated topic with several people who are adamant about the value of wearing protective gear (mostly helmets, but sometimes body armor) and others who choose not to wear such things.

When I was first learning to base jump, one of my instructors (DW) told me that protective gear was a deeply personal choice. We talked about it and I learned that people make their own choices about protective gear and arguing with them isn't likely to change their approach. Some tailor the amount and type of gear to the jump, others have a regiment of gear they wear for every jump, and some choose to wear almost no additional protective gear.

Given that BASE jumping is an insane risk with a high fatality and injury rate with little to no tangible outcome, most would classify it as an 'unnecessary risk'. Given that BASE jumpers have crossed the line of necessary risk, it seems fair to assume that BASE jumpers are people who have accepted the risk that they may die or be permanently injured. Anyone who hasn't is lying to themselves. Since jumpers are willing accept such a high level of consequence, which the other 99.99999% of humanity deems completely ridiculous, whether or not someone chooses to wear a helmet seems like a rounding error.

One can argue that protective gear minimizes the damage which may occur in the event of a certain level of injury and therefore question the logic of others who choose not to wear such gear, however the people they are questioning have already accepted fatality and permanent injury as a potential risk of the sport. The details of what they wear while they jump seems to be slicing hairs. While there is anecdotal evidence for the benefit of protective gear that is also anecdotal evidence for its lack of importance.

I'm curious if those who jump without protective gear jump more conservatively than those who do. Do those who jump with protective gear have a higher rate of object strikes, dangerous or bad landing, or willingness to jump in sub-optimal conditions? Do they push the envelope further because they have an additional margin of safety? It would be interesting to know.

More than anything this seems to be a modern trend of pushing people towards safety equipment and a universal push towards making safety equipment mandatory. The concept the safety of the individual is the responsibility and therefore under the authority of a larger group leads to things such as the mandatory use of safety belts in cars, helmets on motorcycles and bicycles, anti-smoking laws, etc. These ideas begin with the idea that that others should better protect themselves from potential danger and that additional level of safety makes the world better. While there is an argument to made for that side I'm somewhat surprised its entered the sport of BASE where the freedom to decide one's own level of risk is a foundational element of the sport. Given this influence I'm curious if in a few years new organizations will require safety equipment, licenses, ID, and contracts in order to jump, buy gear, own gear, use gear... perhaps that's the future of the sport: a safe organized adventure for people to experience all the thrill of adrenaline in a controlled and safe environment that does its best to make sure no one gets hurt.

Or perhaps people will hold to the general consensus that each individual chooses their own level of risk and that's part of the beauty of the sport. People can do dangerous things because it fulfills something inside them, because they want to, because it gives them something they can't achieve in any other way. Because they can pit themselves against the forces of nature for a little while and enjoy the victories they earn and endure the consequences if they fail.

BASE jumping is a very dangerous sport which is covered in risks, and unless someone has a personal reason TO jump, they would be better off not jumping. If there are people jumping for any reasons other than personal ones they should re-evaluate their relationship to the sport. Jumping for fashion, or to be one of the 'cool kids', or any other reason other than something inside them says they have to is engaging in absolutely pure risk (risk with no benefit if they succeed, and much to lose if they fail). But if someone does have a reason to BASE jump, then they're jumping on their own terms and each jump is between them and the object. They're willing to bet their life that they can make that jump work and they're willing to even die if they're wrong.

Its strange to hear BASE jumpers criticizing each other for taking 'unnecessary risks'. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw hammers. It seems strange to hear one BASE jumper tell another "you could die if you make a BASE jump while <name conditions here>". During a new jumper's training this kind of advice makes sense and teaching new jumpers how to better survive makes sense. (Although the relationship between a student and their mentor is a very personal one in which a lot of trust is exchanged.) But at some point the student will grow up to be their own jumper and make their own decisions about how they jump and they may do things you don't like or that you wouldn't do yourself. And whether you like it or not, you'll do things others won't approve of either. That's part of life, let alone the sport. One can criticize it all day long and scream until they're blue in face about how others should change their jumping. (In fact there are some people who do, although it doesn't seem to be a very effective method).

Many BASE jumpers are individualists who do things their own way, and on their own terms. In fact it would be an odd picture to see a jumper at an exit point listening to the crowd of voices shouting various points of advice about what they should do, how they should do it, and when they should do it and watching said jumper's head spin as they flop off the exit point trying to follow the melee of advice. Perhaps some people do that, but in my experience people take their time until they feel like they are in control of the situation and then jump. I'd like to think this means they are at peace with the risk they are taking and understand the potential consequences of their actions. I haven't heard of someone who jumped and got injured and complained "If I'd known I could get hurt I wouldn't have jumped!". Or more to the point, I haven't heard of a jumper in the hospital who became seriously injured (on a jump) who plead ignorance to the risks they were taking. (It would be hard to take them seriously if they did.)

We've all done dumb things in the sport of BASE, from the day we chose to throw our soft fragile little bodies off something solid with a sheet of nylon on our backs to the day we pushed the envelope a little too far. Those who are honest with themselves will (someday) look at that jump and say "That was really dumb". Taking risks of permanent injury or death is a part of the sport, it's an inescapable part, perhaps that's the least appealing part for some, and they'd prefer those risks weren't there. (Although that begs the question of why they continue jumping). While protective gear may alter the risk of permanent injury or death in the sport one should be reasonable about the amount of safety margin they are providing themselves, if someone believes a helmet significantly reduces their total risk then they are jumping with a false sense of security and may be more reckless than someone who jumps without one.

<steps off soapbox>

My general view can be summarized by: protective gear is a very personal choice. Respect your own choice, own your choice, feel good about your choice, and respect the choices others have made, as their right to make those choices. Please don't become critical about someone else's level of risk... after all you are BASE jumper criticizing another BASE jumper, and unless your history is clear of unnecessary and unreasonable risks you might want to think twice before becoming overly critical of other people's. Feel free to wear the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality, but equally be prepared to be ignored. Try to remember to celebrate and enjoy the freedom we have to take risks, whatever those risks are. Don't lose sight of core vaues by focussing too closely on specific details. Otherwise you'll become myopic and bitter.

Just some thoughts,

-=Raistlin
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Re: [SkyDaemon] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
While protective gear may alter the risk of permanent injury or death in the sport one should be reasonable about the amount of safety margin they are providing themselves, if someone believes a helmet significantly reduces their total risk then they are jumping with a false sense of security and may be more reckless than someone who jumps without one.

I actually do believe a helmet signifigantly reduces total risk...especially the vegetable risk.

Same as it reduces the risk in combat, motorcross, vehicle racing of any type, football, ice hockey, construction, firefighting, etc etc etc.
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Re: [1108] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
Same as it reduces the risk in combat, motorcross, vehicle racing of any type, football, ice hockey, construction, firefighting, etc etc etc.

Agreed. It provides some protection and risk reduction, however when compared to the overall danger of the activity, one should be careful about over-exaggerating the delta in risk. Putting your fragile little body in a high speed situation encounters X amount of risk (versus say a day of golf) and wearing a helmet may reduce the total amount of risk, but one should carefully consider the magnitude of how much risk they are reducing, and in addition one should beware of the homeostasis of effect. i.e. "I have protective gear, therefore I can push the envelope a little further." (akin to the cliche skydiver defense for laziness and bad performance "neyh, I have a reserve.")

It's actually somewhat interesting how safety equipment can actually increase the number of accidents. Time has an interesting article on the fact that seatbelts decrease the fatalities for drivers while increasing the number of non-fatal accidents between cars. In effect people are willing to accept a certain level of risk in their lives and will always find a way to fill that risk. If a jumper wasn't willing to BASE jump because they were worried about head injuries, they could mitigate that by buying a helment and more than likely they would go BASE jumping, thus filling their capacity for risk. If someone wasn't williing to ride a motorcycle on the open roads due to the risks of injury then bought safety equipment which would increase their safety margin, they would then go on the open roads. Those who were willing to ride conservatively on the open roads without safety equipment could purchase safety equipment and drive more aggressively, thus fulfilling their capacity for risk.

In essence, what one reduces in risk through prevenative means is often made up for in increased risky behavior, thus restoring the balance to equilibrium. Although the magnitude of the risk behavior becomes greater as the magnitude of safety equipment becomes greater, but net risk remains constant.

-=Raistlin
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Re: [Faber] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Faber wrote:
In reply to:
Dress for the crash, not the ride.
if so the above is rather ironic..
Boneheads gives less protection than a helmet for a citybike..They really are just not worth the mony,they gives a fake impression about beeing safe...

I surgest using a snowboard helmet or similar,slightly more heavy but it offers protection..

Dude, I'm just posting my equipment choices per the question of the original poster. Based on your opinion, you must wear a properly Snell rated motorcyle/motorsports racing helmet - as that would give the most protection available.

As others in the thread have said, protective equipment is a personal choice. I have made my choice. The helmet I wear (a bonehead) offers me as much protection as I choose. If I feel I need more protection then that, I'll wear a skater type helmet - although if I'm in a situation where that amount of protection doesn't help me, then my helmet choice is the last of my worries.

"Faber wrote:
whats next,should people tell me which brand of canopyes i should jump..

"if you dont like it... F#CK off!!!" Tongue

So, nobody can tell you what equipment to use, but it's okay for you to tell me? Faber, nobody likes a hypocrite.

I like how Tree said it:
Treejumps wrote:
But as a wise Russian once told me, a false sense of security is better than none.
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Re: [BASE864] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
you must wear a properly Snell rated motorcyle/motorsports racing helmet - as that would give the most protection available.
you dont think theyre too heavy and might dameged your neck?
Nah read my post i use most of the time snowboard helmets..

In reply to:
As others in the thread have said, protective equipment is a personal choice
ehm i think i were one of thouse people.. Tongue

In reply to:
The helmet I wear (a bonehead) offers me as much protection as I choose.
which is why i call you ironic telling people to use a helmet but choose to use one whith less protection yourself..

In reply to:
So, nobody can tell you what equipment to use
on that your spot on.. i choose the risk myself,inkluding which type of gear i use.. thats my choice it could never be yours or others..I guess like you as i read from your last post..

I just pointed out after i told that i choose to wear a helmet from time to time.. but i think your post were ironic as most people knows bonehead gives you the right to wear a cam nothing more..

In reply to:
Don't think I've made a single base jump without one. I've probably only made one skydive since I bought my Bonehead almost 10 years ago.

Dress for the crash, not the ride.
yes thats your post.. call me hypocrite i dont careTongue

In reply to:
a wise Russian once told me, a false sense of security is better than none
hope it were a joke as its really the worst advise i ever herdSlyLaugh i rather packup for the worst then walk away than choose the light one and hope for the best..
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Re: [Faber] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
i've jumped with a motorcycle helmet before, it wasn't too heavy, just as bad as a camera helmet. of course my helmet is a sweet ass shoei so i guess some are heavier than others. plus they look way goofy on exit which is freakin sweet!
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Re: [SkyDaemon] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Raistlin,

I do agree that it is a personal choice whether or not to wear proctive gear and the more I think about it the more I realize that I was being overly critical in my initial statement. I think the root of my disagreement with the idea is that some of the people who don't wear helmets and/or pro-gear are the same ones who are actively trying to sell themselves to the media or anyone else for that matter who has money. I guess it irks me when they say they are safe, and promise safety but obviously they are not fully schooled in what safety is.
I am afraid for their well being and I'm afraid of the negative impact a slight miscalculation could have on the sport. Although the more I think about it the less important the sport is and the more important their safety is. I guess I care too much and don't want to see unecessary pain and suffering. But as you said it's an individual choice and I should respect that.

Ahhh Raistlin, o wise one, you have made me a better and more caring person by showing I need to be more tolerant of everyone.
Thank you!

As far as the statement about pushing limits because of protection, I would have to say that personally, having protective gear Does NOT make me take on more risk. In fact I take on less risk now than when I was younger jumper with less protection because I fully understand how risky it is and how fragile we are.

Now, I would like to be critical of you for writing such a long ass post to get your point across Tongue

Jason

BTW - Heres a thought, highly unlikely but...If it is an individual choice to wear a helmet, would someone who refused to help an injured 'non-helmet' wearing jumper, be overly criticized for not wanting to get involved because of predjudices previously discussed in this thread?
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
base570 wrote:
BTW - Heres a thought, highly unlikely but...If it is an individual choice to wear a helmet, would someone who refused to help an injured 'non-helmet' wearing jumper, be overly criticized for not wanting to get involved because of predjudices previously discussed in this thread?


OOOOOhhhhhhhh! that would get you a hot room in Hell baby! Hot, oh gawd HOT! You always help a bro or sis, no matter what what.

caylor
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Re: [Spiderbaby] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
You always help a bro or sis, no matter what what.

No question. But I also don't want to put anybody in the position of having to choose if they get involved or not. I choose to wear armor so I can minimize the chance of that happening as much as possible.
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Re: [base570] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Jason,
<smiles> Nicely written. :-)

In reply to:
I think the root of my disagreement with the idea is that some of the people who don't wear helmets and/or pro-gear are the same ones who are actively trying to sell themselves to the media or anyone else for that matter who has money.

Jumpers who sell themselves to the media are often targets of strong criticism as they often claim to represent the sport as a whole. The sport is still small enough that individuals feel a sense of control and identity with the sport and by the time they are in front of the media that they can speak about 'the sport' versus 'their experience with the sport'. "BASE is about..." versus "My own BASE jumping is about". Unfortunately BASE jumpers haven't united to form a coherent PR department, nor are they likely to, so one must wonder if there will ever be a true solution to this condundrum.

In reply to:
I guess it irks me when they say they are safe, and promise safety but obviously they are not fully schooled in what safety is.


Yeah... hypocricy is irritating at most levels in life. And what's even more sad is that people will often viciously defend their current position even when they're wrong. (Sometimes its hard to tell if they know they're wrong and are just arguing for the sake of argument.) Someone who says "I've chosen not to wear protective gear and have accepted the associated risks, recognizing that my chances of injury are increased by this decision." are at least honest. One could have a conversation with them about the subject in a meaningful way versus the jumper who claims "I don't need no stinkin helmet! It wouldn't make a difference anyways." (or the true whuffo line) "It's not going to help if the chute doesn't open." <sighs>

In reply to:
I guess I care too much and don't want to see unecessary pain and suffering

You and me both. You've definitely been around the sport longer than most and your insights are founded upon a larger and more meaningful base of experience.

In reply to:
But as you said it's an individual choice and I should respect that.

Doing anything else tends to lead to frustration, anger, sadness, and exhaustion. Trying to coherse people into doing something they don't want to do rarely has positive results. As Mark Twain once said "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it sounds terrible and it irritates the pig."

In reply to:
In fact I take on less risk now than when I was younger jumper with less protection because I fully understand how risky it is and how fragile we are.


It's interesting how one's outlook can change over time. I tend to be in the same camp.

In reply to:
Now, I would like to be critical of you for writing such a long ass post to get your point across

Polonious once said 'Brevity is the soul of wit' and by that measure I'm witless. ;-) I fully admit it though.

--

In response to your final point, it's a difficult question. By bailing people out of their own bad choices, one would hope that the victim you save learns from the experience and does their best not to repeat it. On the other hand you risk encouraging their behavior by reducing the severity of the consequences. But, that's part of the pact one makes with fellow jumpers before the jump. If you're willing to jump with someone, you should be willing to walk off the object with them, or carry them out of the landing area. If you're unwilling to do either, perhaps you shouldn't be sharing an exit point with them. There are a lot of exit points in the world, and a lot of jumpers. Hopefully, one chooses them both carefully and wisely.

Be well,

-=Raistlin
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Re: [RJmoney] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
i've jumped with a motorcycle helmet before
rj.JPG
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Re: [1108] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
1108 wrote:
In reply to:
i've jumped with a motorcycle helmet before

that's actually his MTB helmet (remedy), not the motorcycle one
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Re: [SkyDaemon] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
The biggest issue with leaving it up to the individual is the possible consequences to others. Most site access is very fragile and injuries or deaths that could possibly have been prevented with some basic safety gear and some sense can "ruin it for everyone." There should also be an understanding of how their actions not only effect them but everyone else.

If it wasn't for this risk, and they were only effecting themselves, I wouldn't care if someone jumped off naked using a Velo as their canopy. Laugh

Would I think it was stupid and dangerous? Yes.
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Re: [Bolas] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
The biggest issue with leaving it up to the individual is the possible consequences to others.

WTF?
Freedom. Isn't that what Americans fought for over 200 yrs ago? I don't wear a helmet unless I'm shooting video. My individual choice. If you choose to wear one, that's your individual choice, and you should be allowed that choice, as should I.
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Re: [Lonnie] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Lonnie wrote:
In reply to:
The biggest issue with leaving it up to the individual is the possible consequences to others.

WTF?
Freedom. Isn't that what Americans fought for over 200 yrs ago? I don't wear a helmet unless I'm shooting video. My individual choice. If you choose to wear one, that's your individual choice, and you should be allowed that choice, as should I.

If your individuals choices negatively effect/impact others, aren't you effecting their "freedoms?" Unsure
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Re: [Bolas] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
There are positive/negative impacts with every choice. Your saying it might effect your/others freedom. It might, but it might not.

Not giving me the choice, does effect my freedom
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Re: [Lonnie] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Lonnie wrote:
In reply to:
The biggest issue with leaving it up to the individual is the possible consequences to others.

WTF?
Freedom. Isn't that what Americans fought for over 200 yrs ago?

Your profile says your from canada Crazy
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Re: [UPS] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Yep, that's why I said Americans not we/us
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Re: [Lonnie] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Ok my bad. But like you said, they did fought for it during 200 years, now they let go of it so their president, well more like everyone behind him, can make easy money.

But thats another topic...
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Re: [Lonnie] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Lonnie wrote:
There are positive/negative impacts with every choice.

Very true. And if they only effect the person involved then they should be able to do as they please.

Lonnie wrote:
Your saying it might effect your/others freedom. It might, but it might not.

Why should others be forced to possibly accept consequences of a choice you make?

Lonnie wrote:
Not giving me the choice, does effect my freedom

Your freedoms should not come at the cost of others.

Totally outrageous example:
One can't put on a vest of C4 and walk into a mall and try to detonate it because their choice could (detonator might fail) impact others. But if they were in the middle of nowhere, with nothing around, that'd be a different matter.

If one owned their own object they could do whatever they wanted off it. The problem is people are all sharing these objects and they don't even belong to any of them.

The court of public opinion rules these days. All it takes at a nonlegal site is a fatality or serious injury and the "someone should have done something" chant gets going and you have another burned site.

Legal sites are a little better, but the first time a "celebrity" outside the BASE world gets hurt or killed, those sites could be SOL too. The only thing that might save them is if they show the person broke the "rules."

This is more than just about if one wants to wear a helmet or not, this is about people stopping to think, "What could be the possible impact to myself AND others?"

Edited for formatting
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Re: [Bolas] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
Totally outrageous example

I think that's the only thing we agree on

Maybe your helmet is too tight
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Re: [Lonnie] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
I think the people that argue the most about personal choices are the folks that don't wear helmets. So far the only reason for not wearing one is.... personal choice.

Personal Choice is a reason. It answers the original question. Defending it is a political argument.

I personally wear one. All my life I've done activities with high impact probability. Pads and helmets are just part of the equipment. Hitting stuff hurts. Pads and helmets almost always make hitting stuff hurt less.
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Re: [Bolas] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
In reply to:
The biggest issue with leaving it up to the individual is the possible consequences to others. Most site access is very fragile and injuries or deaths that could possibly have been prevented with some basic safety gear and some sense can "ruin it for everyone."

While this is a bit off-topic and fundamentally unrelated to safety equipment, but rather about shared site access, this problem is an inherent condundrum in BASE. Any object that is jumped by more than one person is shared between two or more people. The concept of 'burning' objects is a consequence of the situation you described. However, it isn't specifically related to safety equipment, its related to disrespect for the object and the potential of others to jump it again later.

You're right, most site access is fragile. Often times jumpers must use a 'loose' interpretation of the law (or break it in other cases) in order to gain site access. Some risk getting caught and paying fines or going to jail. That's been a part of the sport since the beginning. Sometimes people get injured on such objects which brings media and legal attention to the object making it harder to jump for the locals. Everyone loses when that happens. The injured jumper is now injured, likely requires medical attention, likely has had their gear confiscated and faces bureaucratic boring legal proceedings for awhile. The jump was expensive in a variety of ways, and everyone pays for it. But that's the risk of sharing exit points and objects with other people.

The problem you've addressed is based on the fact that once an individual has access to a site, they can jump it with or without you, and jump it on their own terms instead of yours. They can do a variety of things on the object that would (to quote you) 'ruin it for everyone'. That's part of the risk of jumping sites that other jumpers know about. It's an unpreventable inevitability of shared site access.

If you'd prefer to have ultimate control over a site, open some, and don't tell anyone about them. If you're lucky no one else will discover your secret spot for awhile.

In reply to:
If it wasn't for this risk, and they were only effecting themselves, I wouldn't care if someone jumped off naked using a Velo as their canopy.

Unfortunately that's not an option for you, nor is it for me. While you may have a grand design in your head about what would be acceptable under what conditions, you don't control the sport, nor do I, nor does anyone. You can affect it, you can contribute to it, or detract from it, and in so doing you can exert some 'control' but that's different than dictating policy as every other jumper has the same power you do. You can control who you jump with, under what conditions you jump, and how you treat the object. And so can everyone else. It's an unchangabe part of being in a sport where anyone with a parachute and the willingness to jump can do so. We all have our frustrations with that aspect of it, but the situation remains the same.

In reply to:
Would I think it was stupid and dangerous? Yes.

I guess I find it strange how many BASE jumpers are willing to call another jumper's level of risk and style of jumping: stupid and dangerous. BASE jumpers are people who throw their fragile little bodies of solid objects at high speed with a single canopy system for a variety of reasons. It's how the sport began... back before there were name brand gear manufacturers and big events by energy drink companies. The sport began by people doing something stupid and dangerous because it was fun and they wanted to. While most people don't take skydiving rigs and reserves off objects anymore, instead they use v-tec parachutes, custom made containers and wear fancy motorcross safety gear, one might think the spirit of pushing the envelope and trying crazy new things is important to the sport. It might not be what you bring into your own jumping, but it seems alien to criticize those who do. If it weren't for them and that spirit, the sport never would have developed to a point where said critic could be a part of it. Developments in the sport didn't occur by jumpers doing what was 'safe', they did something crazy and unknown, which they thought about, analyzed, and learned from. The research and knowledge they did became common knowledge and what we know now is based on years of people risking their lives, and many people dying. The fancy parachute on your back, that you trust your life to, is the result of several other people's life's work. There were people who pushed the envelope in so many ways, to design it, some may have been injured and dead in the process, and we get to enjoy the fruits of their work.

But then perhaps it's human nature to always criticize someone for being superlative in a category to oneself. whuffo < skydiver < conservative BASE jumper < less conservative BASE jumper < BASE jumper.

"One becomes a critic when one can no longer be an artist" --Flaubert Gustave.

-=Raistlin
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Re: [Bolas] & [Lonnie] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
it sounds like one of you advocates FREEDOM. the other advocates RESPONSIBILITY.

I was always told with freedom comes responsibility. something about my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. the US founding fathers debated it. the US military live it.

unfortunately, people prefer to talk about the freedom part of the equation...Frown
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Re: [UPS] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
jumping with a helmit is like sex with a condum sure its o\k if u have to where one but why not pay the extra money so the girl will let you go bare back I mean think of the excitmeant the risk
when u wear a helmet your just saying i really dont have the balls to comit to this but only i know it.
no your a posser and everyone knows it so man up and loose the helmit and dont use rubbers
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Re: [nycninja] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
why not put intentionnal linetwists on a 200 ft A jump. That sound nice too Wink
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Re: [nycninja] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
So what's your naked Velo BASE #? Tongue
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Re: [Bolas] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
I didn't know you could get a naked base #
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Re: [nycninja] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
You sure can. :-)

Although I believe helmets and ankle supporting boots are allowed. ;-)

-=Raistlin
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Re: [nycninja] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
nycninja wrote:
I didn't know you could get a naked base #

Yes but you have to tag that number in spew not shit...
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Re: [1108] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
Gowaylow has one of the first numbers...I'll pass.
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Re: [SpecialKaye] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
This post being about helmets in Moab... I'd venture to suggest that if you are going to wear a helmet anywhere, Moab is the right place for one. Chances of hitting a cliff, or just a decent sized boulder, are pretty good. And most jumpers can probably find more creative ways to lose brain capacity than resorting to the head-meets-rock (at high speed) approach. :)
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Re: [JordanKilgore] Do you jump with a helmet in Moab?
you dug up a nearly three year old thread with the nycityninja...I love it.

RIP bro!