Basejumper.com - archive

Me and my friend were talking about this the other day, and this poll is simply to just understand the reason people are killed BASE jumping. PLEASE DO NOT MENTION ANY SPECIFIC NAMES!!! This poll is not meant to talk about anyone individually, rather to just understand the reason accidents happen. Please vote for the best choice.

It's not always just one factor at work. For example, by reviewing the fatality list we see that there are a lot of object strikes, both in freefall and under canopy. However, many of these may have been prevented averted (or downgraded to an injury) if the jumper had greater experience and/or more protective equipment.

I realize that there are a lot of factors in play, but the poll is meant to find out the cause for the majority of fatalities. Im just trying to get a statistical answer. Thanks for the info though.

Being struck by a planet and being run over by a helicopter are the top 2

If you want a statistical answer, why did you post a poll? Just go to The List and write up a spreadsheet. Then come back here and post the answer.

Statistics of opinions are not useful for anything as far as I am concerned. And that is what you are asking for in this poll.

There should have been an option for "Piss poor luck".

Well its a good thing I, myself am trying to get a statistical answer instead of you.

And yes, polls like this are helpful because it helps people to see where the problems lie and therefore help to avoid them. For example if we discover that packing errors are the main cause for fatalities, maybe people will be more careful when packing. Not saying they are its just an example.

You can have an ironpressed Tom A packjob in the tray and still crack out a 180.

I don't think you'll find a main cause. It's the sum of a bunch of little things (botched exit + dropped shoulder + wind gust + 180 + dropped toggle + ....)

What's to blame? The exit? The dropping of the toggle? The packjob? Bad luck catching a wind gust? Not wearing body armor? Poor cliffstrike form?

That is why this sport is so fucked. I love it

If there is a specific problem that you think is not being overlooked as a cause, then raise awareness by discussing it specifically. But everyone is already aware (as you should be) of the BASE Fatality List. All the information you seek is there. As Tom said, if you want to wrap it up into some tidy statistic, then go compile the information from the list and report back with it.

I can almost see it.

Coming soon!!!! The latest advancement in BASE training. "The Cliff Strike Simulator".

A similar concept as the "Exit Simulators" in Airborne School, except instead of a dirt berm at the end of the cable, there will be a brick wall.

I find one thing interesting about 'the list'. The fact that most of the fatalitys whether BASE related or not, involve some sort of impact. ie. (motorcycle, plane, skydiving, car, or whatever.)

So I am bound and determined to die impacting something. Fate or fact?

I could give you facts, but I'm too lazy to read the BASE fatality list and complile the results.

but I too have an opinion!

most BASE jumpers die repeating the mistakes that killed others. they chose NOT to learn from the List.

(I did not see that as a selection on the poll.)

What you'll find from your poll is what people think is the major cause. That is usually far different from what the major cause truly is.

the biggest mistake being jumping off of shit with a parachute, that seems to be the biggest cause of fatalities in our sport.

Interesting. There are many different opinions here, but I think one thing we can all agree on is that we CAN learn from the mistakes others have made. So maybe reading threads like this and adding your thoughts can be beneficial.

This is what I was trying to say. A "Statistical answer" is what you seek, what you are going to get is a statistical answer of people opinions, not of the real world.

Hitting solid objects including, but not limited to, the earth at high rates of speed.

I've been meaning to do this for a while anyway.

Code

Could you clarify the differences between your categories? Such as the difference between a strike, and an object strike, as well as the difference between impact and strike, especially in freefall?

That must have taken you a while, good job!

Thanks

It looks as though he (she?) just copied the categories listed on the BFL. They aren't necessarily used consistently. For instance what might be called a "canopy strike" in one entry might just be a "strike" somewhere else. It seems that some entries were made with an eye to establishing general categories (for statistical purposes?) while other entries were added by someone who wanted to make subcategories.

One could try for more consistency by reading the detailed incident reports, but it would be considerably more work. And in some cases, you'd just be guessing anyway.

I believe our man Mr. Cornishe was organizing just such an effort over on NickNitro's forum. We should wait and see what they come up with.

I see no option for "poor judgement."
That would get my check mark.

And I'm sorry...who are you again? Your profile isn't exactly the epitome of "disclosing."

pope

Should definitely be added to the "death camps."

Im just a guy who likes to ask questions

 
I like the idea of a cliff strike simulator. That would really weed out the pansies. The eleate millitary groops have a very high drop out rate in their training programs. Should we strive for any thing less? I can just see the next first jump course. A J-line that leads right into an icey cliff face. Then begins the advanced self rescue training....
How does it go, "Some of you will not survive this training program!"

On a slightly more serious note. I think the root cause of accedents has changed some what. In the past there was a real lack of knowlage. Now there is a real lack of fear. Looking at people today I remember being a lot more affraid. Hell I think I am still more affraid.

Maybe I'm just a puss.

Lee

 

Quoted again for effect.

Statistics of past events do not affect what I choices I make on each next jump.
These two statements stand equally true and valid together whenever I jump.

* It's very easy to select, pack and execute my next jump correctly.
* It's very easy to select, pack and execute my next jump incorrectly.

It's all my choice and historical statistics have no bearing on what my next choices are. Sure I do learn from the mistakes of other but that's nothing to do with statistics.

C'mon - I live in a country with only about 100 active BASErs and there are 11 fellow countrymen & women on The List - So does that mean I have a 1-in-9 chance of dying in BASE as an Aussie Jumper??

I don't think so.

g.

I do not see Personal mistake. Reckless jumping kills more than everything else. Good planning and stick to the plan. Dont get surprised by a 180 if you know it will be fatal at that site. How to avoid it? Just dont jump places where you can not get away with a 180! That simple isnt it? Comon sence can get you a long life as an base jumper. There is not many on the list that was just pure unlucky!

it may not be a leading cause, but one worth noting.

being foolish enough to think you can learn what you need from the internet.

and worse yet, teaching others "this is how you do it", why? "because i read this on dz.com".

not that it has ever happened.

...yet...

i was being fecicious. it may not have killed anyone, but it HAS happened.

... and it's very disturbing.

"yet" as in someone going in from it...

Actually, that's happened already too. The guy didn't die, but he might as well have.

There's also the "I'm an experienced skydiver so I can just go it alone" cause. One of those guys has definitely died.

you should have also add deployed to late to save your self

All of the choices are contributing factors at times, but for sure the most important piece of equipment you take off with you is your brain including your instincts. When those fail for any reason, lack of concentration, experience, etc. it leads to problems.
Rick

Exactly. The equipment, the site, and the fact that the weather is variable are all constants.
The only variable is the human.

g.

Nice outcome of this thread with some useful inner sight.

Still, statistics are variable and just give us the idea of which is momentary the most dangerous section of our sport. While the rest is still not less dangerous.
It just focusses us on where we may have to pay even more attention. Thanks for the work done in counting. Most accident prevention in our sport can be done buy spreading information!

But also, none of the incidents happened intentionally. So it is hard to say what was the cause. We only create awareness of that there was something wrong if it ends up in a consequence.
And as success is always right (and of course has a lot of friends) we never will get the evidence how far some jumps had been close to an incident.
That’s why we should not search for obvious reasons. Even if they happen they are not foreseeable because the person did not plan to do so or even being aware of it while proceeding to step into them.

But as accidents happen, there must excist some kind of basic layer in front of this kind of unpopular future. I think about two things: Ego and Choices.
Ego: Maybe the person overestimates his abilities to >handle it< (like a lack of adequate skills, experience, judgment as mental, physical and educational preparation, &#8230; etc.)
Choices: Maybe the person underestimates the contents of the box he is going to open (by poor equipment planning, improper judgment of object in alliance with conditions, delay, landing, wind &#8230; this is maybe a very long list)

Anyway, even if you are sure that everything is a hundred percent right, you still can&#8217;t say that every jump runs as intended because there are so many variables (some fatalities are evidence enough). That is the risk factor we are accept to make our sport beeing the level of arrousel we look for.
And an object does not make a difference between a beginner or an advanced (there are no professionals because you cannot pet the tiger and there is always on object ahead of you). And it does not give you better conditions because you are an experienced or prepared jumper or because you are keeping the ethics.

Still good preparation, less ego and good choices will increase our chances to survive life threatening moments. So BASE stays dangerous and incidents will stay statistic.

Live long and prosper (as I wish this for me and three times knocking on wood &#8230; )
Cya
M.

So all in all, assuming you had the proper training, packed perfectly, prepared correctly, and only jumped from places like brides, etc, where a 180 degree off heading opening wont smack you into anything, how would you say the danger level of BASE jumping compares to skydiving?

Greater than...Due to the limited time you have to deal with an issue.

edited to add: And the inevitability of human error.

Good question but very fragile to discuss.

At least we should not compare risk levels between two different parachute activities. Somehow everything is in some kind dangerous. Even life is so dangerous, that it will end up in death.

An to do everything correct is a matter of perception. So what&#8217;s the right delay for a 150m / 450ft bridge?
And the guy who forgot the packing band in his pilot chute would not have jumped the bridge if he would not have believed he is right the second before he leaped off.

So your imaginary bridge maybe can be jumped up to a certain point with the most possible chance to survive.
But still you can pull to late, get unintentionally entagled with your pilot chute or your canopy can get caught by your feet because you flipped over one unfocused morning. Your pilot chute can get entangled with your bridle or hesitate just a microsecond to long. You can have a linetwist with no time to steer or flare till you hit solid ground or you can have a line over or line knot malfunction just by coincident due to the dynamic mood of an opening. Or you loose a toggle and stall your canopy in on landing with the rear risers because you had less time to adapt towards the situation. Etc.
All these stuff happens once in a while and it can happen to anyone. Some of us did not get a second chance. Some had to quit because of major injuries.
Once you accept this world to gain the most possible adventure for you, you also have to accept your uncertain future.

So whatever you do, there is still enough left to say: BASE is not there to guarentee that you will be safe in the end. And it can not be pretended it should or could do so.

Cya
M.

Depends on the jumper and their pesonaly/approach to jumping.

the question appears flawed as you failed to mention the details of the dz... you seem biased against BASE by over-defining it's details.

the reality is safety typically is measured in aggregate. actions get lumped together to create statistics. ever meet anyone who matches statistics?

statistically a left-handed rig is more dangerous, unless you are left-handed!

would you care to provide details about yourself? you strike me as a college researcher attempting to compare actual to perceived risk.

Im trying to figure out the risk personally for myself. I am an overly safe jumper.

gravity

As the other guys have said, it depends...

I have 1,800 skydives & 7 BASE jumps and all of them went great.

But keep in mind on BASE jumps you have less time and only 1 chute!

In my opinion BASE is more than twice as dangerous than skydiving.

If that helps......and take it for what it is worth.

this is a very nice accumulation of data, thank you for taking the time to put it together. years ago i ran across another collection that also included a category called 'bad luck' this accounted for about 5% of the BASE fatalities at the time. i'm not seeing it in your analysis and wonder where you accounted for those fatalities where no explanation was obvious.

To approach your jumps in a well thought manner is a very good idea. This creates at least a feeling of beeing safe to continue in what you are doing. Even if you are moving in a high dynamic process where safety is not present.

So by asking others you are able create your own picture of it and from there you can make your decisions.
But you should not use the answers to give away responsibility of your actions. Nobody can tell you that you are going to be safe and there will be no harm for you in the jump you planned. This can only remain on your side and jumping can only be your own choice and therefore your own risk.

If it is worth it for you,
have a(nother) good one
M.

Omg, that was funny.

I'd say far more than twice as dangerous. Just look at the number of skydivers who have over 1000 jumps, then look at the number of base jumpers who do. Let alone 6000 and so on.

Comparing the number of jumps that can be obtained in the different sports has nothing to do with how dangerous it is. Apples and Oranges here.

In Kjerag from 1995-2005 there where 20 000 jumps and 9 fatalities. That is one pr 2 200 jumps!

If you do the same with a normal big dropzone where the number is one pr 80 000 jumps you will see how more dangerous base jumping is compared to skydiving! Apples and oranges? Maybe swooping would be more comperable?

I've been wanting to say that one word this entire thread...

D-BagDrew, I agree with you.
Total jumps is Not a measure of risk.

Example: In sport A 50,000 per year die and
in Sport B 30 people per year die. One might
think the former is more dangerous than the
latter. However, A is driving & B is skydiving,
and of course more people drive than skydive.

A more accurate measure of risk would be total
# of deaths divided by total # of events, which
could be miles driven or BASE jumps made.

This though would still be a crude estimate since
highway miles driven are safer than local miles.
Just as E's are more dangerous than B's.

I dunno about that, we all live with gravity every day, and on every BASE jump.

If I had to summ it up in one word, I'd say "Impact." is closest.