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Very comfortable, but the chest protectors make me look like I have tits under my shirt lol, seriously now...

I want to use it for skydiving (I posted this here because I know you guys are the most concerned jumpers when it comes to body armor gear), I bought the Dainese jacket mainly because of the spine protection, but the first time I put it on I noticed how good the chest protectors are and was thinking that they may protect your ribs from getting smashed in pieces by the chest strap in a hard opening.

In your honest opinion do you think they could help prevent broken ribs too?

Pic of the jacket attached.

I have a few different set-ups(including this one for walls) but I am not sure that the chest protection is the most key for me. I also have never felt a hard opening where my Ribs took any of the blame because I am not even sure they see alot of the opening shock as I swing into the seat. In actuality my neck seems to be the most vulnerable and I have decided that even impedance of a brace or anything would actually interupt the natural flow of the momentum so I gladly accept the whiplash.

Not sure I see the need on a skydive. One may also find that the shoulder padding restricts immediate riser access without some discomfort.

You must be planning some REAL Combat Relative Work!

Let me just say...
YES!

<-- Picture of object strike attached.

(This will make no sense at all in the archives when I have switched my avatar photo..)

I don't know what the people at the DZ will think when they see me skydiving with bodyarmor but hey, fuck it!, most people are so stupid they prefer fashion over safety and it's been proven again and again, damn...bill booth was right!

Reason why I'm skydiving with body armor is because I'm still not that confident about my landings (still on student gear, sucks). Plus the armor will come handy in case of a PLF, you never know.

(About the shoulder protectors, I took them off, they didn't let me lift my arms up comfortably at all)

Uh, it makes no sense now. I see a picture of an object.
I don't see a picture of an object strike.

More importantly, does this mean your old avatar is coming back?

Dude, what canopy are you jumping?

J.

Navigator 190, WL 0.9. I know I know, but canopy has nothing to do, any canopy can give hard openings, in fact my problem is not the hard openings, it's the landings, just thought the jacket would protect my ribs from getting smashed too in case of a hard op. which is a nice bonus protection.

if u jump a a navigator 190 and your main problem is the landing maybe u have to think to buy some good ankle protector boots like http://www.crispi.it/home_uk.php

how big is the landing area on your home dropzone? any chance to hit some obstacles? with a navigator (unless u do some very violent moves just before landing) your first contact (i talk about hard landings) will be with your feet and the ankle is the one you really want to be protected first.

P.S. anyone heard about broken ribs at hard opening?

stay safe

That body armour would have probably helped Sean, base 621. His rib cut his aorta and killed him, the rib protector may have prevented this...or maybe not.

George

When I first saw Dainese Armour on Slim it made so much sense. I immediately thought of my very close friend, Joe Shaw (BASE fatal.#28). Joe responded slowly/inadequately to a slowly turning canopy resulting in a cliff-strike against an outcropping of rock breaking his rib and puncturing a lung. He died at the bottom from drowning in his blood-filled lung. This was his only injury. Had he had the chest protection offered by these Dainese units he'd probably still be drinking beer with me today.

Slim told me first-hand that his Dainese saved his back on his infamous cliff-strike south of Sydney. Whilst he completely shattered his pelvis and femur his back was saved from the back-protector (which Slim says was split in two from the impact).

I always wear this armour on any cliff jumps that are underhung or slider-down as the protection that it gives on cliff-strike is huge. I only use it if I think object-strike is a possibility.

Some things to consider:

* The back-protector places the container a distance from your back and therefore placed the BOC in a different spot to what I'm used to. I sometimes remove it when I just want chest and limb protection.

* The back-protector is outwardly curved (convex). This results in a high-point in the centre of the pack-tray and (in my opinion) can increase the chance of the canopy to roll slightly to one side as the last fold (bottom) of the canopy is extracted from the pack-tray. I don't have enough jumps to formulate any field data to support this - this is just seems obvious.

* There are snags galore on these Dainese units. I always wear a long-sleeved top over the entire thing. I've seen jumpers use these without anything over them and thay look like snag-city, particularly when going HH. Also make sure the bottom of the back-protector is tucked into your pants and not exposed as a bridle caught under here via a lazy pitch or aerial will likely not release in anytime soon.

* It's hot and cumbersome to wear and hike with. Gear-up time is geatly increased and you have more to carry when hiking out.

* Whilst the shoulder cups do restrict your upward reach when wearing the rig on the ground, it isn't a problem when I'm suspended in the harness as the webbing/yoke is lifted off the shoulders somewhat allowing free movement.

g.

i've heard of skydivers that have had broken femurs (broke the 'head' (the ball part that lives in your pelvis) off);also there have been broken necks - so i'm sure someone has had broken ribs on a hard opening

I'm sure you've meant NAV200. That's the smallest one from navigator family. If you look in the NAV200 charts, the MAXIMUM weight for students is 130 pounds. With gear you have around 171 pounds.

Move up in the charts. I can tell you that Nav260 it's a lot more easier to land than NAV200.

In flare NAV200 levels out when your hands are at hip level. Nav260 levels out a bit lower than shoulder level and you can squeeze 2 flares out of NAV260.

Edit: spelling.

Out of laziness, here is one post
replying to several statements above.


think they could help prevent broken ribs too?
I do not own one of these but from looking at the picture
and experience with chest protectors in other sports, yes
the armor looks like it would protect your ribs from front
and rear, but not from the sides.


armor will come handy in case of a PLF
Sure, but properly performing a good PLF should help
you more than the padding. Practice them often.
The movement should be smooth and fluid.


if you are doing 10-15 jumps for a day
I think if this guy was getting that kind of experience
he would not need body armor


any canopy can give hard openings
True. I have hammered myself several times and
almost all of them were my errors. 2 Examples:
used regular rubber bands instead of micro on my
first canopy and only 18 months ago I took a BASE
canopy out of a cessna slider down.
Practice packing, have someone else watch and
give you input.


good ankle protector boots
Good suggestion. The kind of injuries more commonly
seen from landings are damage to the legs and tail bone,
not so much the ribs.


anyone heard about broken ribs from hard opening
I have had broken ribs but never from a parachute, kind of
hard to imagine that. However, I do remember hearing a
story once about a female jumper suffering chest damage
from a severe opening.


In flare NAV200 levels out when your hands are at hip level
If this is working for you bro then cool, but honestly this is
not accurate. The steering lines on any parachute can be
adjusted to length by placement of the toggle plus risers
come in different lenghts. Not everyone's arms are the
same length. And to top it all off, the force of the wind
would affect the amount of input needed for a tip toe

 

Was the collapse and subsequent fall from 40 feet
following a skydive or a BASE jump? Either way I'm
real glad you are alright.

Since the original post was by a newbie skydiver worried
about hard openings and landings, my reply was kinda of
skewed towards him.

After the stuff I saw at the Perrine Memorial day 2006
I totally understand the value in wearing good protective
equipment. As it has been said:Pad Up, Pound In

Do you wear a helmet to check the mail?

 
After a year of intensive research I've come up with a bright new idea to the "pad up, pound in" idea, it's called "pad up tip-toe in"

Different people accept different amounts of risk, it doesn't make their decision right or wrong and it doesn't make them stupid.

Don't forget to schlare the tarp before you pound in.

Yes canopies can open hard, but with proper packing and body position most modern canopies will open softly most of the time. Openings hard enough to damage gear or the jumper are rare unless a major error was made.

http://www.crmojo.com/adobepdf/protection.pdf

"Dress for the crash not for the ride."

You didn't catch my point, I said most people are stupid because they choose fashion over safety not because of wearing body armor or not, there have been a lot of inventions over the years that can improve safety but people won't buy it because it doesn't look cool. that's what I meant. (i.e: buying mini 3-rings for the release system instead of bigger rings, choosing something over other just because of smaller packing volume)

BTW I also bought myself a pair of dainese protection shorts, they don't do much but hey something is something. Too bad I couldn't find the pants with knee protectors already added.

You didn't catch my point:

Different people accept different amounts of risk, it doesn't make their decision right or wrong and it doesn't make them stupid.

PS: Do you know the difference between Standard and Mini 3-Rings?

With mini-3-rings there has to be a superior pull force on the cutaway cable by the jumper in order to breakaway, that can be a problem if you are spinning fast with line twists, can you imagine all the forces working on the system, cable, housings, etc? you do the math.

With standard 3-rings you don't have to pull with as much force as with mini to cutaway, that in my book is good for you. that's why I will keep jumping standard and won't get fancy with my gear, maybe change the color of the rig/canopy and that's it. I just don't care if it looks cool or not as long as I'm having fun which is all that matters.

People can do whatever they want with their gear I don't care, I just call the ones who keep fashion over safety in their standard stupid because that's the only way they can be described, if you put yourself in danger that's completely ok, no problem, we are all doing it by jumping out of a plane/cliff/whatever, it was your decision and everybody must respect that, just don't be a danger to others too.

This makes me remember that TI in Chicagoland skydiving(?) who
kept doing stupid stuff for the video like sitflying to the side of the passenger, and with the connections points completely loose. There's a thread in the Instructors forum I think.

The point I'm trying to make is that when it comes to risk there isn't a right or wrong ... there are just different people accepting different levels. This does not make anyone more or less stupid. The people who are stupid are the people who accept less risk but go along with someone who accepts more risk or the people who accept more risk and place others who accept less risk in danger (this is the situation involving the TI).

You accept more risk by skydiving than someone who doesn't skydive ... by your logic that makes you stupid. Be careful judging others because others are judging you.

That's relativism at its worst.

Coffee is warmer than soda, lava is warmer than coffee. It's okay to drink soda and coffee, hence we establish it's fine to drink lava.

By your argument somebody doing a 200 foot underhung cliff with a slider up Sabre 170 and a 28 inch pilotchute isn't retarded. He's just doing his own risk analysis.

Sure, in some universe. Not in mine.

I'm not saying that I agree with Autoset's judgment, but he's certainly entitled to his opinion. And to be honest, his opinion is not far from mine. I've witnessed too much pain that could have been avoided with better protection.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's perfectly fine to uphold personal (fluid) views on an absolute standard of what is risk management and what is moronic.

Dude whatever, this started as a simple Fashion vs Safety thing and now it's about risks?

Of course there are risks, and you must accept them or you shouldn't be jumping, but in anyone's eyes wuffo or not, sacrifying safety for fashion is a stupid thing to do anywhere not just skydiving, and my mama says stupid is as stupid does

I always quote bill booth because the guy knows his shit, he's been in the sport more time than any of us and still alive, he's older, he's got more experience and he's the owner of a top rig manufactury company, if you come up with something to minimize the risks and improve safety in the sport...if it doesn't look cool...people won't buy it.

Extreme Examples:
-"Wow I feel like riding my Ducati 999 on the highway to impress the chicks, but I only have my sisters pink helmet, I think I won't wear a helmet this time."

-"NASA engineer: Bob we need those ceramic plates to protect the astronauts in the space shuttle cockpit from the fatal heat"
-Bob: Eeewww no way, they are too ugly!, look at their color!

BTW I could give 2 shits about people judging me, big fucking deal.

The original poster was calling people who use Mini 3-Rings instead of Standard 3-Rings stupid (w/out knowing the type and size of canopy, pull altitude, etc...). The risk difference between someone who does and someone who doesn't skydive is greater than the risk difference between someone who skydives and uses Standard 3-Rings and someone who skydives and uses Mini 3-Rings. Thus my relativism is much better than yours. I was trying to get the OP to be a little more hesistant about calling people stupid.

Best... sentence... ever.

I'm glad you got it.

You look pretty sexy in that picture, autoset.

I broke a rib on a hard opening once. I nearly got pneumonia from it since I couldn't cough without experiencing extreme pain.

How do the doctors fix a broken rib? do they to cut thru the skin, muscle,etc and put everything back together with screws and stuff or they just make you wear a brace?

Butters, Autoset, Andy_Copland,

I just removed the bicker-fest from the end of this thread. Could you guys cut that out, please?

Saying that someone is illiterate _is_ a personal attack. It's also fairly silly when the bottom line is that you disagree, not that they aren't reading what you wrote.

Posting links to other threads people have posted in other forums, on unrelated topics, is a ludicrously silly debating tactic. Why not just state your opinion on the issues in _this_ thread? If you can't formulate opinions about them, or you don't have any, why poke a stick in to stir things up by trying to revive another, unrelated debate?

isnt this the BASE zone? what does it matter to have smaller rings on your 3 ring system. i never plan on cutting away my canopy while i am flying it. much more dangerous than a spinning mal.

I wear a lot of body armor on some jumps, i wear almost none (helmet only) on some. each jump is different. but then again you dont know that felling yet do you? not to harsh on you but go back up to the skydiving related threads. but dont call things stupid when YOU HAVE NO IDEA what people are thinking while looking at pictures and videos of THEIR BASE jumps.

and if you choose to wear full body armor for your SKYDIVES, awesome, good for you, hope you'll never need it. just dont judge others of which you know little or nothing about.

-nic

Safety is not just opposed to fashion, it can also be opposed to such things as performance, functionality and comfort. Can you imagine, for instance, a 4-way team (or anyone) doing 10/ 15/ 20 jumps a day in summer heat with full body armour on? How badly would that suck?

Skydiving without body armour or large rings is not stupid in anyones book.

Nope, for anything where the bones are in (more or less) the right place, they will just tape you up. For most fractures these days, they don't even use any bracing or tape, since motion speeds the healing process, and the mend will be stronger. Plus don't forget to self-medicate with lots of beer (and optionally herbal stuff ) and calcium.

I believe "Autoset" is referring to skydiving gear
and not BASE, hence my comments are in that vein:

The amount of force required to cut-away is not really
affected by the width of the riser. The size & shape of
the rings has an affect (or Aerodyne would not have
modified their middle ring) but I doubt it would be
a very noticeable difference during a malfunction.

In physics and life there are always trade offs --- think
of a motorcycle versus an SUV -- different speeds, cost,
consumption of gas, freedom of movement, etc. Or take
2 different body types -- tall and thin works great for long
distance running while strong & stocky works better for rugby.

If you want to lift a heavy load one can use pulleys to create a
mechanical advantage. Well the 3 ring system works like that
in reverse. Each ring takes less force than the previous one.
Think about it, the rings are metal but the last one is held in
place by a loop of fabric, and that is held in place by a thin,
yellow, plastic cable.

Mini risers are thinner so they have less drag, weigh less, and
are probably easier to manipulate under canopy but can break
when put under a sufficient load. Wide risers are more stout
so they can take more weight/force -- hence they are used on
tandem gear, base gear, & student gear.

I doubt many experienced skydivers think
of mini risers as a fashion statement

Wrong. Ribs are left to heal on their own if properly aligned, stable and not impedeing or impaling something else, heart and lungs most importantly. If any fracture is grossly malaligned, it must be reduced and fixed, fixed meaning stabilized. Fractures must remain stable to properly heal; motion of an unstable fracture normally will cause excruciating pain and inefficient healing. This is why both external and internal (halos and tibial rods) fixation may be utilized based on severity and location of a particular fractures. The motion aids healing bit is absolute nonsense, further along in the healing process it may stoke enhanced bone reproduction, but definitely not for some time. There is likely someone with really high pain tolerance that could put pressure on a fractured bone temporarily, but that can cause many long term problems including residual damage, not to mention the potential for deformities.

Also, drinking alcohol in excess with a healing fracture, while I know is hard to resist, is generally a bad idea. In part because it is a diuretic and you need the minerals and hydration, but there are more reasons. Smoking cigarettes with a healing fracture, also a really bad idea. There are certain herbs that will work well to relieve pain, some are more well known and harder to come by than others.

Body armor may not decrease the rate of fractures that occur from hard openings, but I guess anything is possible. The problem may lie in the fact that the compression rate is too high for all of your abdominal contents and the fracture may be generated by internal pressure from forced overexpansion combined with compression following opening shock rather than excessive external force from a main lift web or chest strap, something has to give. If the hard opening is offheading and your body is "expecting" to go another way, the torsion created will contribute also. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

just my .02

Okay; I'm no doctor. I'm just quoting what they told me in the hospital, and I got no tape. My fractures were indeed pretty minor -- as tiny as they can be and still be called fractures -- so maybe this is the cheap Canadian medical system at work, or maybe this treatment was only applicable to situations as minor as mine.

Autoset: this may prevent you from using the Dainese armour as a student in a skydiving environment.

My opinion, as a non-instructor, is that you'd be better served practicing your PLRs.

* There are snags galore on these Dainese units. I always wear a long-sleeved top over the entire thing. I've seen jumpers use these without anything over them and thay look like snag-city, particularly when going HH. Also make sure the bottom of the back-protector is tucked into your pants and not exposed as a bridle caught under here via a lazy pitch or aerial will likely not release in anytime soon.


----------------------------------------------------------

Damn good advice here! I have jumped a Dainese sans over shirt etc. and I will certainly take these steps the next time I use it.

Cheers,

JP

I don't think I will experience any problems because of the thickness of the back protector, thickness is 2 or 2.5 inches at most, when properly adjusted it feels a little weird until you get used to it like any other new stuff you try. It's the same as if you had overdeveloped back muscles or too much fat.

I have wore it at home with a backpack acting as a rig (don't have my own yet) and it's just comfortable.

I will be jumping with it tomorrow, see how it goes.