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I am definately getting into BASE, and want to take my FJC soon. However, I hear Idaho sucks even worse than Denver this time of year, so I might have to wait until spring. I am thinking of buying my gear within the next two weeks, so that it will be ready for my class, and also, once I take the class, I don't have to wait 10 weeks to BASE again, while the gear is being built. I also don't want to make the same mistake that I made when I started skydiving, buying new gear that I outgrew halfway into it's production, and then selling for a big loss. I am looking at the Vertigo and CR packages. On top of that, I'm looking at which FJC to take, between the two of those, unless there is another that is much better. But most importantly, as a newbie that has very little understanding of BASE equipment and selection, Vertigo suggests a pin closed container, and CR suggests a velcro container for a first. I know that I want to BASE, but not sure I know what I should get. I am also thinking if the velcro is more of a low container, and the pin is a high/terminal container, I wouldn't have a problem getting the velcro first, (if that is a good idea), and then the pin container after a while, and just have two rigs in the future, depending on the object... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

First things first: Are you in touch with the local (Denver area) jumpers? Contacting them for some guidance (and to keep you out of trouble on the home objects) would be a very good idea. If you don't know who they are, email or PM me, and I can provide some contact info for a few of them (some of them are a bit more reticent).


This is not really a problem in BASE. More experienced jumpers do tend to upsize slightly, but you can pretty much keep your gear until it wears out. I'm still using the (admittedly badly worn and patched) FOX 265 I started on, if only for high bust loads and water landings.


These are my opinions only. Ask around, as lots of other people will have different views. There are quite a few Vertigo jumpers in your area who will probably disagree with me.

I prefer the CR course, as well as the CR canopies. I'd go with CR.

Here are a few thoughts:

CR:
1) The Ace is a less swoopy canopy than a Dagger, and hence less likely to get a beginner into trouble.

2) CR has a more professional first jump course than Vertigo. This is my opinion based on watching the CR, BR and Vertigo courses running within the same week last year in Idaho. I've heard that Morpheus runs an excellent FJC, but I have never been around it.

Vertigo:
1) They are closer to you, which may provide better after sale customer support.

2) It would be a good way to get to know them, which will provide a valuable contact once you start jumping the slider down cliffs near home. Plus, they're supercool people--I wish I knew them better.


In my opinion, a beginner ought to go with a Velcro container. Pin rigs can be closed improperly, especially when you are learning to pack. If you do end up going with a CR velcro rig, get the "loose" fit, as the tighter Perigees have historically had problems staying closed before exit.


This is not necessarily the case. Velcro rigs have worked well for terminal jumps for years. A tuck flap velcro rig (like the Perigee II or Reactor 4) should be fine for pretty much anything other than a wingsuit flight. I've taken my Vision to fifteen seconds regularly, with no problems. Also, the Warlock has had some problems with prematures on wingsuit flights, so be sure that if you are ordering a Warlock for terminal, you get the "wingsuit mod" pin cover flap.

As a beginner, you should be doing hand held jumps for a bit, and those are simpler, and less stressful, with a velcro rig.

Here are a few references to check out, as well:

My article on Dropzone.com. You've probably already seen that.

Poll on pin v. velcro first rig from BLiNC.

Pin v. Velcro thread from BLiNC.

Yet another poll on velcro v. pins for general purpose (not beginner) BASE.

Another Velcro v. Pin for beginners thread.

Warlock pin cover stiffener and premature information.

Advice on new gear selection.

Wow, that's a lot of information. I hope it doesn't swamp you, and you find at least some of it helpful.

thanks Tom .

My advice: You don't have to buy gear from Vertigo for them to give you a FJC. I agree with Tom that the Dagger might not be the right canopy for a beginner. But the Warlock is a fantastic container whether it's a 1 sec delay or a terminal jump. Their new pinned rig will be even better, (especially for wingsuit flying). The best advice I can give is LOOK AROUND. KNOW YOUR GEAR--whatever it is. A pinned rig will work fine for you if you know how and why it works. (Until you do, IMHO you have no business being at an exit point).
I have taken velcro rigs to terminal a few times without a problem. I feel better in any situation with a pinned rig on my back. That's just me.

I took the CR course but bought Vertigo gear.

I also was advised by vertigo to buy a pin rig but after reading articles and talking to people I decided to go for vertigos velcro container (for various reasons) - The Wizard. I also have a dagger and although people say its not great for a newbie - I love the canopy. I have freefallen it off some lowish objects (220ft) - and it has not given me any problems - what i do agree with is that with a tail wind it can be quite fast - and i would be a bit choosey about the landing areas until I gain more experience with it.

My opinon of the CR course was as Tom says very professionally done - well structured and VERY enlightening. It can be quite tiring with early starts and long days but your so happy to be there you just drive along!

I do have one moan about the CR course though - you have it drumed into you about "only jumping when 100%" - I came down with food poisoning - I decided not to jump as I was throwing up, shitting every half hour and was extremely dehydrated. I felt I was being pressured to make a jump - and I really did not feel well. (I did not jump) NOW - they may have been testing me to see if I would go with the pressure and jump even though I felt bad - or perhaps they wanted me to jump so I did not go away from the course not making the jump - I dont know? - Even so I did feel pressured slightly.

Other than that I stayed in Twin Falls made a load more jumps - Nice!


Be Safe.........

M

None of those links work :-(

If my guess is correct, you are new to posting on forums since this is your first one here.

The post you quoted was posted Nov 19, 2002, 11:45 AM

Do this.
Skydive a bunch
Learn basic rigging
When you find someone to teach you how to BASE jump ... get a pin rig.

Beginner rigs are not different than rigs used by experienced jumpers. That is, until you get into specialty rigs for specific types of jumping.

But it is very nice to see that someone reads and finds the correct discussions to post in.

I'm confused, was this post aimed at me?

My post was just highlighting the fact that the links no longer work. I was interested to see the polls on Velcro vs Pin thats all ;-)

Sorry bud. I have grumpy old man syndrome.

]You'd have to sign into blincmagazine and search for it. The website has been completely rebuilt since 2002.

You are going to find just as many supporters for both Pin or Velcro closing systems . Harness Containers are like automobile models offered for sale also . Everyone has different taste and there wants in models offered .

I am going to pick this Sentence out of your Post . Not to belittle but as something honest you are stating about your Base mechanical knowledge .

..." as a newbie that has very little understanding of BASE equipment and selection,".
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Velcro is the least complex while having the least mechanical variables, packing , routing, pin tension etc . . Velcro is a great platform to build the knowledge of the BASE harness container system and BASE mechanics . IT is very ' Forgiving ' easy for the beginner to open-up and checks or adjust your Packing of the canopy when your learning . Velcro harness containers also do serve the advance BASE jumper with many jumpers still putting them to good regular use .
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And there is something so reassuring about hearing that shrivel flap "ripppp" and knowing something is coming out. I kind of miss my old velcro container.

100% agree! I love my velcro container, especially on lowish static lines, the ripping of the velcro is a great sound once you have pushed off. With my pin rigs, I sometimes hear/feel the pins popping but not always.

The first time a friend of mine jumped a pin rig was at bixby, he gasped because he thought nothing happened.

Here's a weird thought that just popped into my head. no one, or at least very very few people would use Velcro for a wingsuit jump, but I just find myself wondering, with the vector of the force going basically straight back (towards bottom of container) in a shear vs peel force direction, would a Velcro rig (assuming brand new Velcro) have a tendency to not want to open on such a jump?

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. Smoking forward air speed is same as if the jumper was falling in total fuckedup head-down body position . When the Bridal is pulled like this, ( even tight brand new nice Velcro ) . It is amazing how smoothly/constant the Shrivel Flap peals and is pulled off for extraction .
. There are two things that go hand-in-hand to work and both complement each other . Beside properly construction of the Shrivel Flap, the The big thing that makes it so smooth and consistent on pulling, are properly integrating, nicely done, Stiffening-Plates in Side-Flaps under the Velcro Hook .
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Two word answer.

Shrivel flap.

Edit: If it's been a while since you've seen one, I'll see if I have one handy and take a picture.

Edit again: found both of my Velcro rigs and zero shrivel flaps.

I thought that is the point of the shrivel flap. If pulled straight down, the flap shrivels (bunches up) which turns it into more of a peel force than shear force.

My understanding of why velcro is not recommended for WS is that the velcro is less secure against wind flow, and could have a premature deployment.

Friends and I made wingsuit basejumps with velcro rigs back in 2000. Everybody lived. Had one of the first production Perigee Pros but my velcro rig fit better in the suit. Jumpers then thought of the first pin rigs the way some now think of velcro.

Do you mean, "premature" velcro release, or do you mean the PC-bridle pulling on the shrivel flap?

Pull force from bottom of picture, bar tacked at top of flap, threaded through opening in bottom.

EDIT: To preempt questions, no I did not build this bridle, and no Tom didn't help me not make it.

Could you have found a more ratty looking Shrivel Flap ?
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edit add:
here a ( Pic. example ) of, straight-Pull from the Rear and Peal from the Top .
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Yes, but it would probably take a plane ride or a passport. $200 ain't bad for a velcro rig.

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Hey.. Everybody is taking turns giving you Shit, fuck I just figured it was my turn .
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