Basejumper.com - archive

As always when a friend of mine dies, I feel completely gutted.

He will be mourned and missed as long as those who have had the pleasure to know him live.

But my reason for posting about Jimmy's death is this:

I want to publicly announce my complete displeasure with the BASE fatality list. Whatever service the BFL may have once served is competely over. It is my firm conviction that far from honoring the lives and deaths of our fallen brothers and sisters, the online list trivializes, mocks, and in many other ways does a huge disservice to those who have passed as well as those who are left behind.

I would love to privately discuss this matter with anyone interested in this subject, but let me quite simply say right here that the BASE fatality list is distasteful, wrong, disgusting, hurtful, sickening, offensive, abhorrent, etc. etc. etc.

The memory of Jimmy Hall (BASE jumping was the smallest fraction of what has made him a great person) deserves better. He deserves to be remembered with honor by those who loved and knew him. His death is a tragedy. No good has come of it, no good will ever come of it, and nothing will be learned by touting it online with a few words written by a guy who prides himself on being the guy who writes about BASE jumpers who have died.

I don't even know the guy who writes the "list", but please whoever you are think very hard before you put Jimmy's name on there.

edit for thread title ~TA

Agreed.
The list attracts death.
We would be better off without it.

The most important glue that holds BASE together is the absolute love of life so much that you're willing to risk it all. A Death list will always be there somewhere. It is sort of a necessary part of our history.
Rick

I do not agree with you. there is no need for a "death list" the list is definitely an unnecessary evil. I searched many sports including snowboarding, diving and climbing and there are no "death list". there were a few mentions of good athletes who died, but no list. these sports seem to be doing just fine without a fatality list. Which just proves that there is no need for one. When i was learning to BASE jump the one thing that people repeatedly said was that both me and my parents should read the list. Finally i did and i found it sickening that someone who has never met 90% of these people thought he/she had the right or "responsibility" to tell there story. I think the list is a sick portrayal of who BASE jumpers are and i think that if the list should stick around it should be up the the friends or parents of the ones who died to tell there story, not someone who has ample amount of time on his/her hands.

Claire, I respect your emotions and beliefs, but BASE is not snowboarding. Never has been or will be. It is a truly dangerous sport with little margin for error. In 35 years I've had over 40 friends die skydiving and BASE jumping. Every one I knew would like to be remembered as part of a very unique group of humans who really went out on the edge to enjoy life. It shouldn't be looked at as morbid at all. It shouldn't be an honor either. Just a tribute to the memory of a brother or sister that was also willing to go off the edge.
Rick

but it IS looked at as morbid. by EVERYONE who is not a BASE jumper. it is looked at by the media as a proud announcement of how extreme we are.

I think it does some good, but i think it does some bad as well.

I have it printed out and archived to look at now and then. but every single news article about a fatality refers to it. as if every reported BASE fatitly is reporting the 100 fatalities before it as well.

I've split this thread off the Jimmy Hall fatality thread. Let's try to keep that thread as a positive condolences and memories thread for the deceased, and discuss other issues in separate threads.

Thanks!

to clarify, i think it does a lot of good to teach new people, and to remember the departed,

Im not for or against it.

I also thank nick DG for keeping it current, it is a shitty job. and he is good at it.

on a different note, I dont believe in censorship. and the list does not lie. it may speculate here and there, but ot much.

I do want to be on it if i die BASE jumping, or in another sport as a 'died outside BASE'.

Fuck this argument and this Split Thread.
Hasn't this already been hashed out to death in the past on this bullshit forum ? I thought that it was decided that. If you DON'T want to be on the 'Dead BASE jumpers List'. Then don't DIE BASE jumping. or Don't take up BASE jumping.
It also does not matter what anybody wants. It's a free country and it's Internet Info. That is put up by a person who has a right to post that info anytime and in any manor that person deems presentable.
Also the BASE DEATH LIST is JUMP INFO. and can also be interpreted as the WHY & HOW or reflect patters of fault and errors made. That is knowledge possibly learned and then not repeated.

So no one has to like or dislike the ( World BASE Fatality List ) . Just live with it. or Die on it.
.

Agreed

>and nothing will be learned by touting it online with a few words written by a guy who prides himself on being the guy who writes about BASE jumpers who have died.
~ If you seriously believe that Nick "prides himself on being the guy who writes about BASE jumpers who have died" you're a bigger ass than you act. I can't quote Nick exactly but I remember seeing something to the effect of: "No matter what I do , I'll always be remembered for that damn list." anyone know the quote correctly?
<<<Fuck this argument and this Split Thread.
Hasn't this already been hashed out to death in the past on this bullshit forum ? I thought that it was decided that. If you DON'T want to be on the 'Dead BASE jumpers List'. Then don't DIE BASE jumping. or Don't take up BASE jumping.
It also does not matter what anybody wants. It's a free country and it's Internet Info. That is put up by a person who has a right to post that info anytime and in any manor that person deems presentable.
Also the BASE DEATH LIST is JUMP INFO. and can also be interpreted as the WHY & HOW or reflect patters of fault and errors made. That is knowledge possibly learned and then not repeated.

So no one has to like or dislike the ( World BASE Fatality List ) . Just live with it. or Die on it.
.
~~~ A-fucking-men.
~J

I totally agree.
We have to learn from others mistakes and also we have to keep the "reality" in our minds what can we and what we cannot do...thats one really good reason why that list should be there.
Also, in my opinion, if someone wants to think that this sports are safe and fades the reality of the dangers of the basejumping away, you really should print the list and read it again. Learn from it, again, and again.

I think if someone collects the death list of snowbording or some other "safer" sport, and then analyze the fatalitites...everyone can guess what are the results of that...

I don't view the list as morbid.

The AAJ actually keeps track every year of the names and accidents that occur climbing/hiking ect. As an avid climber I read it to learn from others that were once here.

I don't know Nick D, but from what I read on the list he is not disrespectful.

I just want to say this...WHO gives a fuck what others (media ect...) think about this sport. Do you think for one instant that they "get" it?? They never will. Did you get into BASE because of what others think? I hope not. If they view the list as morbid....let em. They will never understand.

This is a sport where ignorance will hurt you.

Jimmy was rad. I know that BASE was such a small part of his life. And he will be remembered for more than BASE jumping.

I disagree that nothing good will come from Jimmys' death.

He was one of the most positive people at the DZ on the N. shore and he will continue to be a positive influence on his friends and family that are left behind.

I wouldn't mind talking the list over with you, but it seems you've made up your mind on what it means.

Just because Jimmy passed away doesn't mean he can be a positive influence on someone elses life.

Jimmy was larger than life itself.



Are we Spiritual Beings with a Human Existence,
or Human Beings with a Spiritual Existence?

I miss you Jimmy.

Blue Skies Brother.

A Hui ho.

Hey Jimmy,

Sorry for your loss bro. In regards to the list, I'd rather not comment on my personal feelings but I would like to make a suggestion for the future of the list which might make both sides happy.

Why does the list need to be a public page? If one of the main arguments for keeping the list is that it is used as a learning tool for new jumpers, why can't the site be password protected. That way the world and media cannot see it, the list still exists for documentation purposes, is available for those who wish to read it periodically, and is there for new jumpers to hopefully learn from others accidents and hopefully stay alive.

Just a thought....

Coco

Well said Coco.


Aloha.

yes, it´s a shitty job indeed.

when my friend died last year (#101), i provided all information a week later to nick, including a pic. it was first hand information, cuz i was the only one with him up there.

until yet, you can read an "internet translation" for what happened. i asked nick several times by mail, why he doesn´t use my information and pic and he answered he will fix that.

is that a good job?! i´m pissed cuz of this and sorry for getting OT in this thread, but if there´s a list, it should be as good as possible what means to use right and proper information!

andY

If God forbid I should die on a BASE jump, I want my name to go down on the list for 2 reasons:

1. So other people contemplating entering the sport can see the real dangers and not underestimate the seriousness of the risks.
2. So active BASE jumpers can learn from the mistakes of other people. This may lead them to change their technical practices, it may also lead those 'push the limit's the step back a little.

I don't want my name to be there as a testiment 'no shit I want to be remembered'. I want the BASE fatality list to be a place where people decide if this sport is for them and where they can learn.

That's the reality of it with no bullshit attached...

I am not a BASE jumper but have just lost a long time friend in the BASE world ( Stefan Oberlander) so I hear what you mean when you speak of lost friends. On the other hand I am a pro skier and have lost at least one friend a year and up to 7 in a year for the past 10 years. I do feel that some of them would still be here if there was a place that they could of read about all the others that have passed and seen the risk in what they were getting into. Most of the deaths have not been new kids but the veterans of the sport yes they know what they were doing and that is not the sad part the sad part is when a new kid gets in over his head and ends up dead do to ignorance. As a new skydiver but an athlete who pushes the limits which can and does result many death I think the list makes me step back and think a bit more on "Do I want to get into this". AS for not having a list of the other sports There is not one because it would be many books long and impossible to keep updated.

Just my thoughts and rip to all the lost friends and family.

I dont see the List as a 'memorial' to fallen jumpers...although you can see how thats how it could be interpreted.
As already said....all of these people I'm sure were much more than 'BASE' and the List should not necessarily be the place defined as the 'memorial' to them.....but rather that should be somewhere else, in a place their family and close friends want it to be ( public/private )

The List , in my opinion, is a chronological record, a description of what went wrong and perhaps what could be avoided as well as a warning to us newbies coming along...

I think we are all told to read the list, before contemplating BASE....I did....I printed it out and read/analysed the entries over several weeks...and it does have a sobering effect on you if you do it this way..As my experience level increases I still go back and read through things I already analysed...and see things sometimes in a different light.

Its something , I think, that needs to be there in one form or another.
Personally I'd like to see more information on what might have gone wrong/what lead the event to happen...more than the List being a place to honour those who have died....I dont feel its accomplishing both (to their relative justices) at the moment..

But personally ...I'm glad its around, it serves a purpose....but sad to see the entries

Gizzoogling it or whatever its called.....IMHO...took a stab at degrading something I considered 'sacred'
Some things just shouldnt be turned into a joke as I see it..
....but the man who did it was the man who started the list...I still dont know what to think about that.

I'm with Ray on this one. Hell, I've thought about sending Nick my best BASE pic just in case I end up on the list myself.

it seems you have suffered a serious loss. (I never met your friend.)

the List is simply a tool. it can be used well, or improperly. the user gets to choose.

I like that the list exists. remember in the jumgle movies? all the shrunken heads marking a sacred spot? the List serves that sort of purpose. it warns people before entering.

youTube (and video in general) typically show the cool stuff and entice the unwary to BASE. the List acts as a balance, as a means to sober potential BASE jumpers. making the page unavailable to the public would destroy this function.

the List is NOT really a memorial to the people. you'd need a separated webpage for each individual to do them justice. the List is more about documenting mistakes. it needs the human face to grab people's attention.

I'm sure people have been offended by things I've said and done. you obviously know you have offended others as well. before we ask others to "clean up their act," should we not ask it of ourselves first? are you now free of sin?

p.s.
other sports do NOT compile such a list. most likely because of length and it counters marketing initiatives.

USPA publishes fatalities, but it cleanses the reports of all personal info, and does NOT make public an entire list, just an annual one. is that preferable?

HIDGAF?

really?

Even though I might post a little too much, certain fragments of the list have slowed down my urge to rush into it all.

It is the counterweight to all those Jet Snortless and Raddy Holliday vids out there that show what a wonderful experience BASE can be. I think they have the tendency to portray BASE as the new cool, but I'm afraid a lot of prospective jumpers don't really understand the possible pricetag of all that joy.

"I want to publicly announce my complete displeasure with the BASE fatality list...it's distasteful, wrong, disgusting, hurtful, sickening, offensive, abhorrent, etc. etc. etc."

I totally agree - we don't need a base fatality list like this.

what's with our base ethics here?
Here at the point where it comes to real ethics I realize how strange the base fatality list is, "producing" jumpers who have already prepared their picture for the list, just in case... how sick is that?

We for sure need a list where we can learn from base fatalities and to prevent accidents happen again and again. But we don't need personal information in it.

we don't learn more about basejumping when we know the jumpers name.

---

[we don't learn more about basejumping when we know the jumpers name.]

well, it shows that there are real persons involved in it, and this is what will make people think about the risk, because they can identify with what happened better. if one just reads about an accident that happened to "someone" it doesn't have the same effect, as if one reads about someone who had a family and friends and a life when he/she died. it makes you think, this might happen to you, too, if you don't take care or even though you take care...

Not arguing that the list has no use. The following is just an observation.

I don't think that the list really deters anyone from entering the sport. More likely than not, someone wanting to enter BASE that reads the list is going to think "I have read about this person and how (and in some cases why) he died, so it is not going to happen to me( or I know how to avoid it). "

Without some kind of rationalization that amounts to "it is not going to happen to me", it is not possible to enter the sport. Regardless of what people want to say now.

Kris.

Without this list, i would be probably on this list.

Clearing the list, to make the jumper anonymous, is making the danger impersonalize. (This will not happen to me.)

Unless, of course, you are hoping that it *will* happen to you...

Being an active BASE reader (not jumper yet), I think you'll always have divergent point of views on the list...
As a pedagogic tool to learn as much as I can about skydiving and base jumping , I'd rather read a list of
accidents/incident, the causes and a discussion on what
to do to avoid/solve the problem (just like the Incident forum here ....)
But on the other hand, it's good for me and for other
people am sure to have this list to put your head back where it should be when you have the "I want to go BASe jumping now" idea in mind ...
That said, having a photo, name location etc, am not
sure it really helps the purpose

my 2 cents

The list must remain. It is your responsibility not to fuck up and end up on the list. Consequences of dying include a list entry. This is a fact of life whether you like it or not.

bsbd!

Yuri.

Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. The list is a valuable and accurate resource designed to protect the living from themselves. As humans, we need all the help we can get.

359

It appears that the one common thought about the BFL is that it serves some higher purpose in the form of education.


It's not that aspect of the list that I find abhorrent.

these words are at the top of the page...
"Published for its Educational, Historical, and Memorial Value . . . "

It's the subjectivity of the keeper of the page in his depiction of people who he never even knew that I find disrespectful and counterproductive to BASE jumping in general. How is it his ethical role to write anythiing memorialistic about these people? And what do the the dot dot dots stand for?

Obviously very few of you agree with me...

"Published for its Educational, Historical, and Memorial Value . . . "

in these manners the fatility list reminds me of a war memorial for WW II or so. In the village where I live we have a boerd with all the NAMES of the people of that town that died in WW II. It is supposed to remind you of the meaninglessness of the war, for which all these people had to die. Of course this is a different topic, but the fatility list is also there to say that this shouldn't happen again.

People are saying a list of this sort doesn't exist in other sports, what about the incident forum? Is this not a list of similar magnitude for skydiving? With similar information? Should the list become a wikipedia type platform where people can add what they feel is pertinent? I'm sure this would take a load off Nick's shoulders.

As for internet password protection, who would monitor this database? How would you decide who gets a password? Would you change it every few weeks to keep it secure?

An incident list is quite useful in sports like BASE, skydiving, rope jumping, paragliding, climbing, etc. The list helps prevent the recurring problem and make the danger of the activity a reality. How many of you check your gear differently since the Hilder incident? I know I do!

As for the personal aspects of such a list, I think it adds to my understanding of the incident, cause and effect, when I know a little about the person. I know he was some guy making bad choices and headed down the wrong path to begin with. It makes it a little harder to just rationalize away the issue as "it won't happen to me".

I have friends on the list. There are people I've met online, people I've jumped with, people that died while I was present. I don't think the list degrades them in anyway. I sometimes read the list just so I don't forget about the person and who they were to me. I also find people on the list I wish I had met before they made the list. This has me regard jumpers I meet at an exit point in a different way.

I think the list has several strong points. I think the biggest burden is it's maintenance. I feel Nick has an attachment to the list and this comes from his attachment to the sport, so the info in the list is fairly accurate. But he also catches the wrath when someone disagrees like Jimmy and Clair. If it was more of a free entry platform like the way a Wikipedia is supposed to work it may be even more complete.

how many on the list did you know? for those of us that knew more than our fair share after years of being around, there is value...whether it be educational, historical or memorial value, matters not.

i can't say i haven't visited the list to see what was written about any of my lost friends. most that are lost, the discussion was completed regarding what happened that caused their demise. nevertheless, the historical and memorial value lives.

kaye

First and foremost, I offer my sympathies for your loss. The loss of a friend is a tragedy and I wish you the best as you adapt to your life without your friend.

Secondly, with regards to 'The List', it serves as an unbiased testament of fact to what the sport is, and what the true risks are. It's information others -should- have and be aware of. If they choose to participate they should understand: Jumpers die. Truly talented and skilled jumpers die. Friends die. And those who BASE jump risk death while jumping.

One should feel very comfortable with their reaction to the risks inherent to the sport before they begin BASE jumping. If they waver on their feelings about death in the sport, they should take up a new sport. A jumper should have conviction about what jumping means to them, and be willing to die for it. If they aren't, they're risking more than they afford. In such a case they should reconsider their motives.

It's interesting that Nick included a section of those who died outside the sport. It brings truth to something someone once told me...

"We're all on Nick's list, it's just a matter of when and in what order."

-=Raistlin

Whoops,
that last one was me, not my wife. She was still logged in when I posted.

Alright after giving it some more thought you all are right. The list is good. It serves an educational purpose as well as a cathartic purpose, and I thought of another purpose it could serve: A drinking game purpose.

The BFL Drinking Game or TBFLDG.

Whenever another name is added, get together with your BASE jumper friends (participants must be BASE jumpers), and start at the top with #1.

For every jumper who died before you started BASE jumping, drink. For every jumper you knew personally tell someone else to drink. If you ever made a jump with a dead (before they died) jumper, tell someone else to drink. If you ever had a similar incident but did not die, tell soemone to drink. If you ever made a jump from the same object, tell someone to drink. If you completed your BASE number requirements from an object that a jumper died from, tell everyone in the room to drink.

Whoever passes out during the game gets their picture taken, and that is the picture which gets used for the list when they die.

Since most U.S. BASErs have come from the ranks of skydivers, I'll provide a link to USPA's incident reports:

http://www.uspa.org/safety/incident.htm

You'll notice it is under the Safety and Training section. I have been in the sport for several years now. I have learned, and will continue to learn, from both the USPA and BF lists. That is where the educational and historial value is for me.

No, USPA doesn't list names and locations or post pictures. But, I think that is what contributes to the memorial aspect of the BFL:

I have, on occasion, gone to the list not recognizing the person's name, but I have recognized their face. That has sparked memories of the times I may have spent around them and the exit points I may have shared with them. It puts a very real, human aspect to it that, to me, USPA's list does not contain.

As for the "dot, dot, dots", it is my belief that, rather than defining those words further, the writer has simply left the reader to define them themselves - and leaving it for discussions such as this.

Mark

Now yer talkin'! Let's all have some fun before we leave up out this bitch.
Nobody gets out alive.

359

Jimmy,

How about starting out with the names of your lost friends and drinking what was their favorite shot. If someone didn't know them, they drink double out of respect for our departed friend and quickly learn the favorite shot. While you're at it, you have to tell a funny story of your friend. If someone didn't know the person on the list and wasn't jumping before they passed, they drink triple. You see who gets wasted, the underclassmen!!!

Sorry for the loss of your friend...it always sucks when we lose someone close.

Kaye

Generally it's people who knew the deceased that provide personal information. I don't think Nick assumes to portray those he didn't know. In the situations where no information has been provided, it is usually just the news reports. I've submitted personal information about a couple of people on the list and it has been reproduced. The list should stay. No disrespect is intended and it has education values. As the maintainer of another list of dead people I believe in providing personal information so that they are not just another statistic. Sorry for your loss.

Wouldn't it be better if the list was distributed internally, like the carnage tape? While its a valuable resource for jumpers, it's like a chest of pearls in the middle of a pig farm. We don't think "youtubing" the carnage tape is good for BASE, do we?

A couple of things . . .

Jimmy & Clair, the . . . punctuation is nothing more than a personal writing style I've been using for thirty years and you're reading a bit too much into them. One poster up-board came closest in explaining them as my way of not over explaining things and leading perceptive readers to think for themselves. In reality they are called ellipsis and are used to omit text that is (or should be) already understood. I abuse that rule for sure, but again, it's just a personal style.

Also, if you look a bit more closely at the List you'll see that most reports include sentences encased in quotation marks ("-") and some that aren't. The quoted sections are from reports I receive from jumpers directly (or as directly as possible) involved in the fatality. The unquoted sentences are my own and I think it comes across that I'm as careful as possible with those.

In days past the early BASE magazines, specifically BASEline and the BASE Gazette in the 1980s were printing BASE accident reports and drawing inaccurate conclusions and it was a lesson I took to heart. As far as comparing the List reporting style to what the USPA does, their reports are, by design, impersonal and they often resort to merely stating violations of standing BSRs. The problem is that never tells the whole story. The fact USPA never mentions names or locations is purely political and if you think that through you should be able to understand the reasons why . . .

On your contention that I'm reporting on people I don’t know is, in a way, right and wrong. I did know almost everyone in the early section of the List, and if not in person at least through phone contact or letters. And the rest of the List contains many people in the same way. But the sport has grown so much nobody can know everyone. I'm the old fart who still believes in the "brotherhood" so I can't help but feel in a way I do know them all. We, all of us, are only separated by a few degrees at best.

For instance, you said you, "don't know who does the List." While I don’t think we've met face to face you did talk to me on the phone when you called a major gear manufacture trying to purchase gear for Clair. Granted, maybe you didn't put two and two together but that seems like a stretch. And what does "know" mean anyway? If either of us is asked if we know each other we are a long way from saying, "never heard of him." And I hope you'll give me a bit of credit here. When I refused to sell you the rig because Clair was underage it wasn't a statement on what you were doing, it was protecting my boss and the years he put in order to make the sport safer.

Now to the meat of the matter – Is the List appropriate and useful? There are as many ways to view it as there are people with opinions. In the long view I started the List in 1987 and we circulated it among ourselves via email. At that time there were only about a dozen names on the List. And certainly we were trying to learn from the mistakes of others. In those days no one wrote, with certainty, how to go about BASE jumping. The best advice at the time usually started with, "I tried this and it didn’t work, so don't do that." I'm not sure you can relate to that time, but in a way, even with mentors and the courses available we are still doing the same thing. However, now it's more because we ignore the past and the lessons that reside there.

On the statement I "enjoy" doing the List. Gee, Jimmy, I don’t know how to respond to that. If, for some wild reason you actually believe that, I'm here to say I don't. I think, like most old timers, I take a certain responsibility for the sport. We, and I'm including you here, did our little bit to popularize the sport. My way was more in house and yours is a bit more out there. But, except for the totally underground ones, most BASE jumpers do share a responsibility for it. I think, closer to home, you probably take BASE jumping seriously and I'll thank you to extend me the same.

On, should the List be public? I've grabbled with that one since day one. In the end I came down on the side of the truth can't hurt us. In another way it's us taking responsibility for what we are doing. Sure, we could sweep it under the rug, but what good is a clean house that is filthy underneath? I've heard, over the years, from enough jumpers, wuffos, and media types to know the List has value. I actually got a kick from Clair's reasoning that "other" sports don’t make use of Lists in a similar manner. But I think it's only because no one was around in the beginning with the idea to keep track. Imagine if there was no BASE Fatality List and someone today decided to compile one. It would be impossible. The facts and figures that make the List valuable would be lost to modern day interpretations. I sometimes look at some of the early reports and find I must resist the temptation to change them in light of modern events. But I know they are more valuable, at least for the discerning reader, when they are presented in the context of what we knew at the time. It's what makes the List a living breathing thing.

My tenure as the person who does the List is in its waning days. I don't want to do it anymore. It's too depressing for me. I've been looking, over the last couple of years, at a short list of people who have expressed interest in taking it over, and some that haven’t, but who I believe could and might if I asked them. I'm also open do doing away with it altogether. I don’t believe any of us, as individuals; have BASE jumping completely figured out yet, but as a group I think we do a pretty good job. So, I'm saying I'm listening, and if I thought now, or at sometime in the future, a majority thought the List should go away, I would make it so . . .

NickD
BASE 194

further

Ellipsis: This punctuation mark is also called a suspension point, points of ellipsis, periods of ellipsis, or colloquially, dot-dot-dot.

An ellipsis is sometimes used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence...

IMHO, The list stays. Yes, I am unhappy that Nick doesn't change the summary from what is purported to have happened to what the locals have stated. But it is his list.
I think he should go a step farther and categorize the fatalities more so than he has done for example:
7 have died doing video back to earth on exit.
6 have died doing frontloops on exit,
4 died doing proximity flying......
If you don't want to be on the list, then don't jump.
Should "we", the old school, sugar coat everything like tandem schools do? Fuck no. You fuck up like the rest, you die like the rest. One's only chance now is to die in a new way unthought of before. Then thats's OK in my book. But to repeat the same mistakes over and over again and have fatalities over and over again because there was no list is simply stoopid. Disrespect comes from people not learning from the pioneers in how to not to die doing what the pioneers in mistakes did. If, Bla-Bla dies the same way as 7 others, then maybe not going this route is a great idea. Why would one not want to share this with others? Morality?
Take care,
space

as a person that wants to get into base, reading the list help me take a step back and realize that just jumping into something with out fully understanding the risks could be fatal. i had an oppertunity to jump but realizing the risk and my experince in skydiving, and knowing that the object to be jumped wasn't the best for the first time, thanks in part to the list. made me step back and reconsider what i was doing at that time. getting someone to stop and think for a second about their actions will always be a good thing, the list does just that.

Space, what I remember is you and I standing beside the "ditch" at DeLand in 1989, when "swooping" was called "Ditch Digging" and you said this was going to be bad for the sport in the long run, and you were right . . .

NickD
BASE 194

See this poll:
http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=2520077

BASE is currently unregulated. The difference with the NTSB and the USPA is these are the "official" organizations publishing airplane and skydiving accidents. Therefore they decided to not include names or photos for whatever reasons. USPA also doesn't include locations, so as to not offend any DZs. When reading a USPA report, I have to try to figure out what accident they are actually talking about so I can connect the details I've already heard about it here. The NTSB does list the location since a lot of accidents occur during takeoff and landing so the local conditions are usually more of a factor than in skydiving.

The BFL run by Nick and the forums are not official so they include whatever information people post, so long as the mods deem it acceptable.

From the BFL:
"NOTE:
- This List is not 100% accurate."

The BFL information is already on the internet so removing it will not make it disappear completely. There is no governing body for BASE that publishes incident results in a formal, anonymous manner like most of aviation. Pilot error is a major cause of fatalities in flying, so all of us should be learning all we can if we want to have the best chance of staying alive. Part of that is reading about and learning from the mistakes of others.

I can't imagine that maintaining the list is an easy job, and like moderating the forums I'm sure it can offend a lot of people. However, if it keeps people from making the same mistakes over and over like leaving a pull up cord or rubber band on a pilot chute, and saves one life, then IMHO it's worth it.

I'm sorry for the loss of Jimmy and all the others on the list. If you don't want specific details about the incident known to the whole world you have the option of keeping them from the public and having just a vague newspaper-like entry on the list.

In BASE we usually try to keep information about specific sites from the public. I feel that knowledge is a good thing to be shared among responsible BASE jumpers and it's up to everyone to use that information correctly.

now really...
how many people have jumped with a dead jumper AFTER they passed away?

does anybody care to admit it?

I think the list should always be there, this is a great tool to understand what are you gettint into, I took me a long time to find out if I wanted to base or not, and the list helped me understand the facts about who and why base jumpers die.

I done my first skydive with Jimmy and I went to him for advise on base, and I got my first rig from him too, I'm happy to have started base and hope to continue for as long as I live.

if/when I die, (cuz we all will) I hope to be on the list and that my death will help other understand the meaning of the life we chose to live. It is not that we jump to die I jump to feel alive every day!!!

Jimmy Hall I will miss you lots bro.

Ash dives? I would count that as jumping with someone after they died. Then again, I think that some of my friends that are now gone are with me on every jump...but that's just sappy stuff.

You should all see hollyhjb in person.

She graced my house for dinner once . . .

Killer, beautiful, and capable . . .

NickD
BASE 194

For me the list is laike a walk on a cemetery. It´s respectful, everybody on the list get a personality but the most important thing is my beloved friend... Please keep it up.

What I find what’s heart wrenching is when a friend finds out that someone they love has died – and the way they find out is through a public forum (a bit off the subject of the list, more a thought about the consideration of others before you post – make a posting ethics rule that you have to wait at least 48 hours before posting about someone who’s just died – in order to give the family and friends a chance to hear about it). I know, I know – the world is what it is – don’t look if you don’t want to know…. My heart starts to race when I see a thread topic like the one I saw yesterday…knowing how easily it could be someone else that I love…such a small, small world. It might be “another one” to someone, but it could be my someone’s someone. Did that make sense? I hate that the community is surrounded by death’s broken wings.

The list, the horrible list …after awhile, the death toll becomes something that seems quantified and blended across paragraphs of incidents. I’ve never gotten through the whole list to be honest. It’s reading someone’s name that is familiar – a friend of a friend, a lover of a friend, a son of a friend, a friend – and reading about someone that I’ve never known…it’s seeing their names or picture next to the words that are heavy and without breath…that stops me from reading further every time – maybe because the tears get in the way. Perhaps one day the list won’t have names. It seems like a more humanistic approach to what the list’s purpose has been portrayed to be by the king’s court, although the list holds different meaning for different people.
– if “you” really want a memorial for those that have died BASE jumping – perhaps create one that has only names – carve it deep in a cave somewhere in the mountains or etch it in limestone and buy a small plot of soil somewhere far away from the matrix for it to stay so loved ones can rest their backs against the cool stone and remember and feel close in the stillness of the moment, find an apex and pound in sticks with pc’s tied to the tops that the wind catches like flags or kites with names embroidered on the bridles, carve their names in a redwood that stands hundreds of feet over the forest in a canopy of trees...

Sucks for Jimmy Hall's friends and loved ones...never met him but sounds like a stand up guy. To those that know him...I'm deeply sorry for your loss...

As a member of the Anexx club...
Nick...if you quit the list...I would be HONERED to take it over man. I'm totally stoked that I had my years in BASE and will eventually be on that list - just like we ALL will be. I haven't picked out my picture yet though...

I used the list as an instructional tool for many of my students...and they never objected or thought it was a bad idea to read the list - it's an excellent edu tool and when me and my students would be driving to a site or hanging around...I would pull out some printed copies and we would talk about how or why each death happened - SO WE WOULD NOT REPEAT IT!!! After we would read the list...I would whip out my death videos - explaining the context, etc. Eventually I became known as the "DEATH MONGER" - which I held with pride...

See folks, I don't want to lose friends, and this is a great tool to STOP that from happening. If you are afraid of the list, don't like the list, etc...you should not BASE jump...and you should probably vote for bush...because you are acting weak and you got your blinders on.

If you don't like the list...don't read it! I think it's the best collection of memories of those that died - for edu and to pay them respect. IMHO, there are too many BASErs that are afraid of dying, afraid of the list, or don't want to talk about death - but hey folks...death is part of life! Embrace death...it's coming.
Losing friends sucks I know...but the list should stay!!!

BSBD!
JJ

 "As a member of the Anexx club..."

Give Anne a call, she could use it right now.

NickD
BASE 194

If you do not think there is value in learning from the mistakes made by others, then I think you're missing something.

I have had very mixed emotions about the list. I have read it from beginning to end. I visit it on occasion. I always pause at #103, take a deep breath and scroll on down to #104. I start to cry and I want to scream at Nick "he is more than a number on a list! He is my husband! #104 is Joe Lathrop, the love of my life!Wonderful Father to 3 children! The kindest, funniest, sexiest, thoughtful, most remarkable, beautiful man that ever walked the earth!#104 is where my life stands still. Where my future ended. It is the shattered remains of all my dreams, my hopes, my happiness, my heart, my world, my everything. NOT a number. And I cry and yell at the world for awhile.

Then I dry my tears, and take a step back. I think about "why" the list is there. Joe, knew about the list, and certainly never wanted to be on it. But, if one person reads his story, and learns from it, than it is quite possible, his story may have kept someone off the list. That is what he would have wanted.

As a future BASE jumper, the list is very sobering. I believe it should be read by anyone considering BASE.

The only suggestion I could add if it were to be changed. Because, everyone feels so different, and it is so personal. The public or media should not be a concern, they don't have to get it, or approve. Maybe if a spouse or close family or friends have strong feelings about their loved one on the list, a photo and or name could be witheld out of respect for them. There may be BASE jumpers themselves who have expressed they are opposed to the list. I think the wishes of the people it is so personal to should be considered.

As much as it pains me to see my husband there, I think you do a good job, Nick. And I'm sorry the list keeps you busy.

Jimmy and Clair. I rarely get mad at anyone. Both of you are completely out of line here, as both of you have been several times.

-Chris
BASE 460

Thanx Christopher.

Kudo's Nick.

Joy

...the list...

When I used to fly, suprisingly I was a pilot at one time, I used to read a lot of NTSB accident reports...

I figured if I could learn from those mistakes, maybe, just maybe, I wouldn't make the same ones myself...

Then a few friends started showing up in the reports..... dieing in really stupid preventable airplane crashes...

It upsets me that they are known/remembered as NTSB XXX report, and not the person they were making perhaps just a one time error in judgement.

However, If one person reads the report of where they went so wrong and learns from it, it is not all for naught.... But I wish they could have just a glimpse of the person that made that mistake...

To me, the BASE jumping fatality list does both. It personifies the accident, and provides a lesson...

I think it is valuable and I thank Nick for doing a difficult job.

Beth, I am so sorry about Joe. I think about it often...


_justin

Wait, we're out of line? Completely even?

I've never stood in your line once, not even for a second, so I've been completly out of it from the beginning.

And this coming from a guy who has Hunter S. Thompson forn Avatar....

Nick,
I truly appreciate the time you took with such a response.

It is the spirit in which you keep that early brotherhood flame alive which I respect in you.

However, when I said I don't know you, I meant I wouldn't think for a moment I know you well enough to say anything worth reading that would stand for ever as a testiment to your life or death, and more importantly you don't know me either. One phone call about a rig, and a couple of years of vicarious interaction through the sport amount to very little in my book.

And be careful when passing this torch of the BFL on to the next generation. It seems like there are a number of people who would jump at the opportunity to pick up where you leave off. "Me. Me. Me. I'll do it Nick, I'll do it." Yeah, like I want that guy writing about me, my friends, or family n the event of a fatality.

I'm done talking about the list now, I won't ever die because I'm immortal anyway, so it's a moot point for me.

It does seem that I touched a nerve though. It almost seems to me like I committed a huge feux paus by questioning Nick and THE LIST. I didn't know they were sacred or off limits.

I didn't think that a group of people who pride themselves on urinating on the graves of their "brothers" would hold anything sacred.


Oh well live and learn, if not you get to share a number with those on the list, yipee.

Appears that you actually DO know the guy who does the list...

What were your motivations for this thread? Was it really an issue with the list...or sorry, an issue with the fodder for your new drinking game? Or was it a personal issue with Nick (whoever he is??? oh wait we've already established that you were lieing and know exactly who he is) and you used your supposed displeasure as a vehicle to stir up shit online?

Did you attempt to email him with your views/opinions directly? Or did it feel "better" to go public with your beef?

Of course, you bring your intimate relationships and there issues to the public's eyes through this forum, so the fact that you would do the same with issues regarding a fellow jumper is not surprising in the least...it should actually be expected.

NO
that way you´ll have the same group having that as an exclusive thing that people has to beg for to get.

Dont get me wrong but im the only jumper in my region,serval jack asses from the local dz has borthered me years after years to teach them to BASE,It took me 2 years to get the carnege tape and then was told it wasnt updated..
Im using that vid to scare people in case they really go close and really want start jumping...

So far no one started BASEjumping after they saw that vid.. I think it has saved atleast 1-2 people as they did rethink if they should start..

Personaly i see the list as "The BASE-graveyard",thats why i gave Nick shit the other day.. I think the site need its respect and it deafently has its place out there..

not at all,but as i see the carnage vid its a closed group of people having it,and it more apper like a thing you need to beg to see(AS A JUMPER) than its a lesson vid or reminder to how close death is..

I do however agree that not all people should have acsses to that vid,but i find it weired when a jumper whith a # or ref as experienced jumper cant get it..

loosing the list to the same group would be bad

well thats only my oppinion..

I think its good that both the vid and the list is out there,i however think that the list is more value as its known info.And its a place were we can go look at our freinds from the past..

Hey don't take things so seriously. See, I got you worked up. BASE jumpers always take everything hook line and sinker. ha ha ha.

Ellipsis: This punctuation mark is also called a suspension point, points of ellipsis, periods of ellipsis, or colloquially, dot-dot-dot.

When we piss on the graves of our fallen friends who died jumping, it IS meant as an honor. The list is no different. As a pretty old timer you should see that.
I've seen a lot of it and they deserve to be recognized not only as a sterile lesson about the cause of death, but as a person that was part of a very unique and special brother/sisterhood. Keep the names Nick and keep throwing a few personals in there if you get them.
Rick H

Jimmy,

The list as prepared and hosted by Nick is merely a list. It doesn't judge or comment on the possible reasons other than to quote most accurate reports.

I quit BASE jumping a few years ago after the birth of my daughter. This was in no small way as a result of reading and analysing the list.

Some of you may recall the very detailed analysis I carried out, splitting the list into various skill levels, causes, objects, etc.

What became very obvious to me (although I always knew it to some extent) was the level of black death that is inherent in BASE jumping, regardless of object, experience level, etc. It was a level which I was comfortable with as a non father but I was totally uncomfortable with as a father.

I would very possibly have come to this conclusion anyway but the list made my decision much easier.

While I was BASE jumping, the same analysis was an invaluable tool in reminding me that the jumps I felt more comfortable with weren't necessarily the safer jumps (I utterly hated antennae but loved cliffs).

Without the list being so publicly available how are newcomers to aquaint themselves with the grim history of the sport and thereby make informed choices about how to progress.

The fact that many other high risk sports don't have this list is a condemnation of their head in the sand attitude to the risk, not a condemnation of BASE jumpers for being so aware of the possibility of death.

I say a huge thank you to NDG and also huge condolences to those who know someone on the list.

The removal of the list from the public domain serves no purpose other than to make it harder for newcomers (who want to) to weigh up the pros and cons of what, at the end of the day, is a very risky sport.

Now back to my boring family life ;-) which I love by the way.

Jimmy's thoughts on the BFL may not be popular, but he is not alone. The list does have educational value, so why not make it more educational and list some statistics (XX people died filming on their back, XX died from slider up cliff strikes, etc.). Removal of all numbers (the current "tally") would add value as well because the media won't cite it as much and jumpers won't simply be remembered as #1XX on the list.

The BFL should be educational as well as a way to honor our fallen brothers. But we must minimize the chances of it being repeatedly used against our sport on TV and in newspapers.

My thoughts on the list from March 2005

Hello, for me the list is a huge value ammount of information to use in safety way and a I think also Nick take it on a very respectfull manner.
Please Nick keep the list and your way to go..

If you dont like it, just dont go to the site.
I dont like millions of websites and stay there anyway...??

We are out on a limb here in Kenya and to the best of my knowledge there is at present all of one base jumper(s) in the whole of East and Central Africa: me!

Any & all Knowlege Bases, Wikki's, Forums, "Lists" and helpful people ie TA & Sean (when he was still with us) are invaluable to me.

I constantly study all of the above, formulate my own opinions and ideas and modify my Base behaviour accordingly.

I respect the various points of view expressed in this thread and vote in favour of the List.

John

As someone who's friend is on the list, I would request to keep the list up. After reading this thread the other day, I went to the website today so I could see his pic and remember him and the others I have heard about on this forum...several people died around the same time. The list is not available.

I am not a base jumper, but have considered it. *After* reading the list I decided that for me, the risk outweighs the benefit...after my son and grandson are in college maybe, but not before that! The list reminds me whenever I think I want to have an adventure, that skydiving is enough adventure for me for now. I find the list necessary to help people make informed decisions.

+1

I have one BASE jump but am not a BASE jumper. I have three close friends on the list, including one that coached me thru my one BASE jump. I think the list should remain, it serves more than one purpose. It is a memorial for my friends, and it is a reminder of the ultimate price that we all may have to pay if we BASE.

I believe this was said earlier. make it a memorial site not a list. take out the numbers there is no point for numbers.

As far as an informational site in order to keep your self alive, i think that if you need the site to stay alive then you might not have enough common sense to be a BASE jumper

Common sense says that if you rig or pack your gear wrong then you will probably die.

common sense would also tell you that if you fail to have a canopy above your head at a reasonable altitude you will also not survive.

common sense tells you that if you strike the object you just jumped from even if it is not your fault chances are you are not going to make it.

Clair,

I'm not flaming you but... Common sense...

You are incorreclty using the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions as opposed to "common natural understanding."

People can use common sense to use the BFL to gain esoteric knowledge (Esotericism largely overlaps with "hidden knowledge"). You could say one can, "enlighten themselves" by reading the BFL

I feel that the site aids in Jumpers decision making process and helps them to formulate their own educated decision.

Bottom line is that Common Sense is a societal ideaology (an organized collection of ideas). These specific ideas's are stored on a NDG's personal webpage.

Really, Common sense, is not so common anymore. Then again maybe you'd like to see more people die? ( I seriously doubt that You'd want that) You can not say that the list does not and has not helped!

Further, last time this discussion occurred, the idea of shutting it down was shot down.

You would like the site closed? Then become less hostile and more agreeable). Come up with a plan of action that is agreeable to most so the BASE community can make their input...

Again this is not a flame. I just want to know what you think, not what someone may or may not have scripted. What ideas do you have?

Seriously I doubt that NDG, or the community at large, would ever take the site down, so what ideas do you have that would help, instead of "knocking" the list?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
There are some of you that want a statistics page? Then someone put their money where their mouth is and make one.

 

My distaste with the list began while I was teaching Clair to BASE jump. In fact, that was when I first became aware of it's existence.

She got the "did you read list?" thing so many times it became apparent that BASE jumpers have, in my opinion, a morbid fascination with that list.

"Did you read it? huh? did you? Did you read it again? huh? Still wanna BASE jump now? Read the List yet? You better read that list right now before you proceed one step further."

Why not just, "please think about what you are getting yourself into. THis is a very unforgiving sport which has resulted in the deaths of many people and the injury, sometimes life changing, of many others."

And now recently, for reasons I will never feel a need to justify, I don't think Jimmy Hall's name should go up there, and for that matter how about an alternative to the way it has been historically maintained if not a complete dismantle?

That's your interpretation. It's also possible that they were actually trying to convince her to slow down (and make a couple skydives) before getting into BASE, or that they thought her approach was likely to result in problems, and wanted to dissuade her.




In many ways, reading an actual list of names, with photos and background, brings the reality home in a way that a few simple sentences never could. It also provides some historical and cultural referents that are difficult to obtain in other ways.


Let me turn the question on it's head:

Why did you, Jimmy, think that it was a problem that people asked Clair to read the list? Do you think that BASE students generally ought to be steered away from such information?




Does this mean that you have finally found something that in fact, you honestly do give a fuck about?

While that sounds flippant, the point I'm trying to make is that you have spent years promoting your "Honestly I Don't Give A Fuck" philosophy. Why has it abandoned you (or perhaps you have abandoned it) now?

I wanted to also say, in regards to the "other sports don't have a list" comments from some in this thread:

Accidents in North American Mountaineering is compiled and printed by the American Alpine Club and distributed to their entire membership each year. It is also available for purchase at numerous stores, including your local REI.

The United States Parachute Association compiles and prints accident reports in every issue of their official publication Parachutist, which is distributed to the entire membership of the organization.

The United States Hangliding and Paragliding Association, maintains an accident database on it's official web site.


The National Transportation Safety Board maintains a database of aviation accidents, as does the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.


The argument that "no one else keeps a list" is fairly difficult to sustain in the face of a few quick Google searches.

Clair,

It's always been hard to figure where the line lies between "old school" and "new school" in this sport as it is constantly shifting. But, I think I'm safe in saying, in a personal sense, that line of demarcation clearly separates you and I.

I do, on the other hand, respect your opinion enough to answer you, and also others, who have voiced a negative view of the List. As I've now removed the List from the Internet I also owe an explanation to its supporters.

I won't begin by saying the BASE community was more tightly knit when the List began, as I'm sure Clair, in your world, it seems the same. So I'll try to hit the solvent points and forgive me if I'm not at my best, as today my soul feels dusted . . .

I always endeavor to put other's opinions in some kind of context. I think Jason Bell actually believes the sport would be better off without the List. He is a proponent of more legal sites and there's no doubt that would be easier to achieve, in most cases, without us trotting out our mistakes.

Jimmy Halliday makes the case that no one should be reduced to being a name on the List. Point taken, and you'd never know the responsibility of editing someone's life into a single paragraph unless you had to do it.

But the ying to that yang, is no one who begins BASE jumping in the next five years will even know Jimmy Hall's name if he wasn't on the List. I also see it as a bit disingenuous, on your part Jimmy, that you never expressed angst for any former members of the List, until your "friend" was about to join it. And you must admit, even as I know you're not exactly a newbie, you must see people's names on the List you never heard of, and wouldn't know. And they had friends too.

Then there is the subject of numbering the fatalities. Clair, in your case, you came to BASE when the number had maybe lost its original meaning. I remember when we would sit around and lament 15 of us being dead. Many, and most who don't inhabit your world, are still around and the number being at 112 does mean something to them. Its not abstract, it’s just a longer view you don’t yet hold. I'm here to tell you, when in the latter stages of your life, and BASE career, you'll probably change your mind. If I'm wrong I can only hope I'm around in twenty years to hear about it . . .

Jason, you're easy to say to the List should reflect facts and figures, but the List, since day one was never about that. As you've been the chief proponent against the List I'll tell you this. The List is all about the human aspect, and what makes it real is the names and the numbers and, you brother, you are stone cold in your resentment of that.

The List, in my final analysis, is a map of where we've been and where we are going. I'll suggest those that disagree are agenda driven and aren’t capable of having the best interests of the sport at heart. That's a pretty strong statement. But if proven wrong I will aqueous.

But god help us if I'm right . . .

I'll leave you with this. Don’t make the mistake that I won’t enjoy not doing the List anymore. I'll revel in it. It’s the very reason I didn't pass it on to someone else. I couldn't, in clear conscious, saddle someone else with something so depressing. So in a way, yes, I caved. I caved to a present generation not willing or able to see the value of it. And in the end the book burners George Orwell warned us about, won out.

But, know this. The final fatality listed on the BASE Fatality List wasn't a living breathing brother or sister, it was more than that, it was the truth . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I'm really thankful that the BFL was one of the first things I found and read after I started taking a serious interest in BASE. Every single addition to the list since then has left me reeling like a punch in the gut. I don't know if anything else would be quite so effective at making me think "This is serious. Maybe I don't want to do this after all. I better take things pretty slowly." Just having someone say "this is dangerous, you know.. you might even get killed!" just doesn't strike home in the same way.

I'm also bothered that there are still lessons to be learned by the recent entries, things to add to checklists and to my training...

The list...

Those who do not know history are only doomed to repeat it.

Keep the list the same.

I guess that's the end of that discussion.

Nick,
Please don't pull the list. 21 of the list were Friends and jumpers I knew. Let "New school" do what they want. Let "Old School" continue as we have.
Take care,
space

(chime) How 'bout a list of "ONLY NAMES"? And a site with "NO NAMES" just how the death occoured?

For example...A BASE jumper with ### of BASE jumps had an uneventfull exit and freefall/track from an(a) B, A, S, E. during the deployment of the PC etc,etc,etc,etc?

(/chime)

I try to refrain from writing to this website, but in this case I feel I must. Every base jumper has their own personality, individual as a fingerprint, but base as a whole has one personality that shifts ever so slightly with change of individuals.

As a BASE jumper brought out just a year ago through old skool teaching and hard work by BASE 17, I am ever saddened that I have been on this ride long enough to know that it is changing.

I was present for two peoples ends on Nick's list and believe that in losing the list we are losing the bond that so much makes us one.

I said to a friend with a broken back from a parachute accident last night, that I am afraid to jump now adays because of the risk of getting caught. So many stupid jumpers have ruined sites and alerted enemies of BASE to our presence. The whole, known as the BASE community, is changing!!!!

Change can be good or bad, as long as we stay together, it will be positive.

~Taylor
(A supporter of the BFL, BASE, and all those jumpers that do it for the chicks)

....damned emotional decisions.

Can't believe that the list is down.
The only source of fatalitys base infos, that i have trust.

whatever part of BASE i am, i have an opinion.

of the 3 votes that can exist,
1-get rid of the list totaly
2-get rid of the names and personal info on the existing list,
3-leave it how it is.

my vote would be the third, leave it. I have nothing in my life i need to protect, and if i did something stupid to kill myself, i dont want my name censored, because that would be nothing less than censorship.

but, anyone that has a problem with the nameless/impersonal list idea has something wrong with them.

leave the list up, remove names and personal info. its a good comprimise.

is there not a place online for skydiving fatality info? (i really dont know)

nick as disappointed as i am in your decision to remove the list, i respect it because it was yours to make.

maybe the two-headed beast will shut up now.

Agreed.

However, I find it funny, Jimmy H, once stated:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1798789#1798789


I know this post was made a long long long time ago, when you were teaching a wee 16 yr old lass named Clair to BASE jump....

So what changed Jimmy? HIDGAF? I know I'd like to know.

_justin

Skydivingfatalities.info

Dropzone.com Fatalities Database

thank you, thats only part of parachutist i read, then toss it in the fire.

Nick,
I respect your decision along with everyone else.

is there a chance for a fatality list, only nameless?

Im not good enough to run it, but there are a few that could.

Anyone who wants to is free to compile the data, with or without names, and do whatever they like with it, including creating a website.

Nick has put significant effort into the words he used on The List, and out of respect for him no one should plagiarize his text, but the underlying facts of the accidents, as well as identifying details and biographical information, are all in the public domain.

OK
This is the third time I TRY to write something here. Everytime I wrote a loooong post and I deleted before posting it. Then went and do the same TRYING to PM NickDG. Wrote a looong PM, and delete before sending it.
What Im saying is that I cant find words to express my disappointment. I mean, u guys have discussed this several times before, and you all agreed and know what happened. The BFL stayed...

:::BREAK:::

Now a girl that doesnt gives a fuck and her husband that cant accept the last entry decided to care......(6 dots)

Yea I better stop typing again, cuz Im not here looking for enemies. Im here to filter the good info (and sometimes laugh at the soap opera, i miss magot). The BFL was good info. Had more probablility of doing good to the sport than bikes hitting A's.
This sucks. At least I had the chance to read it 1000 times and learnt a little. Not only about death, also about how people lived. Yea but who cares? like sum1 says, this is hopeless.



edited the Re: thing, cuz it was not a reply to anyone

Nick,

thanks for the List.
it was your decision to create it. only you can decide to remove it.

to the naysayers...
what better memorial to the fallen than to learn from their mistakes? why let them die in vain?

heck if I die jumping, let me be the last one to make that particular mistake!

I hardly ever post is this forum but would just like to say:

Although I never fully read the list I did read parts of it. It's one of the reasons why even after 2 jumps at Bridge Day I'm still not sure if I want to become a BASE jumper. For me, right now, I'm not sure the reward is worth the risk.

I hope you don't mind but I went to google cache to save my own copy off. I want it available to me to read fully if I ever do decide to get into BASE.

How 'bout those that choose to jump of fixed objects with parachutes stop being EMO pansies who can't deal with their friends being talked about after their death.

This sucks. I want the list.

Here you go.

Save a copy now, and keep it updated yourself. It's a lot of work to do something like that, and while I'm grateful Nick has taken on such a thankless task all this time, and I personally wish he was continuing, I understand that it's taken a toll on him in many ways.

Each of us is free to continue his work however we like, provided we respect Nick's right to control his original words.

wayback internet search engine

http://web.archive.org/...e/base_fatality_list
with a few pictures, but last snapshot 2006 (Nr.97)

Thanks for the list Nick.

It was a major factor in me understanding BASE after a friend fucked himself up, and occasionally rereading it has made me understand that I'm not currently willing to accept the risks of becoming a regular BASE jumper.

Thanks for being strong on everyone else's behalf for so long.

Something isn't right here. A very large majority of jumpers felt the list should stay, but you listened to a handfull of opponents (me being one of them) and yanked the list. Strange.

Quite simply, I objected to the present format of the list.
-Numbering the dead isn't helping our sport or our fallen friends.
-The big read "111" at the top of the page is indicitive of a fascination with death.
-The lack of statistics, such as listing the most common causes of BASE fatalities, reduces its educational value.
-The page, in its present form, causes more harm than good in my opinion. Have you read any recent BASE articles in newspapers that didn't refer to Nick's list?

As mentioned before, the educational value of the list is enormous. If the BFL could be cleaned up a bit, with the changes mentioned above, then I think it would be a valuable tool for new and old jumpers.

I think many of you place yourselves and the sport of BASE jumping on a pedestal. Yes, it's dangerous and people die. Yes, it takes a smart and level headed person to survive. But it ain't rocket science. The average Joe knows that BASE jumping is dangerous and 99.9999% of the public will never even consider trying it. The few people that enter our sport should be educated by qualified instructors or mentors - not solely by what they read on the internet.

I wrote a bunch, and deleted it out of respect for Jimmy Hall.

Lets not disrespect Jimmy by bickering about him on dorkzone.

Everyone of those jumpers on the list we can't see anymore was special.

It's been stated before and probably will be again...The problem with the list not being available to the general public, in a fashion that makes BASE seem dangerous, is that all the "young jumpers" that are researching or on the fence - thinking about getting into BASE - whether skydivers or wanna be BASErs will not be deterred by it, scarred by it, or scared by it... These are likely the types that shouldn't be in the sport in the first place. I know a number of people that have decided to NOT get into BASE because of it's inherent danger...triggered by all the dead and permanently injured people. The BFL kept that "image" of BASE alive.

One of the major problems with human beings is that they forget easily. IMHO - In a couple years a whole slew of new jumpers will be coming on the scene - as they do - and all the ones that didn't get a chance to read the BFL will be hucking off without hesitation and there will be more injuries and fatalities because of it.

Nick, you may have been depressed by it and just about at the end of your rope...and it was your choice, but it really sucks that a few nay sayers beat you down - especially the immature one that nobody believes should be jumping anyway...

Thanks for keeping the list for so long, I would have wanted to see it continue being updated though. As would, it seems, most jumpers on this forum.

Over a week ago jokes were being made about the list, now it has been completely removed. I can't help but think that this is an emotional response because you got some negative comments about your list, between the Snoopdog topic and the death of a person who's influential friend suddenly realised he doesn't want his name on there. I hate it when people tell me what I'm thinking/feeling so my apologies if I'm out of line.

The list is now a .txt file on the odd harddrive. Hopefully they belong to future mentors in the sport. Thank you for keeping it up till now, I have a feeling it will resurface one day.

Edited to add:

I'd be very upset/angry if someone gave the impression that some list is more important than my friend's death. If you look at it that way, Nick made the right decision.

Take care

personally, I think the list IS far more important than one persons feelings. or a group of people's feelings. since when are a few more important than the many? no single person is that important. get over your egos/hero-worship/whatever.

feel free to be angry/upset at me.

the list taught people. it helped prevent others from making the same mistake. it helps keep the jumpers from dying in vain.

if you can't deal with the ramifications surrounding death, well, maybe BASE is not for you. consider bowling instead.

death is a possibility on every jump. awareness of that fact should lead to a certain level of sobriety. if not, you should ask yourself if you are a statistic waiting to happen.

and instead of whining about Nick, why didn't someone create an alternative? make Nick's list unpopular by providing something better? building instead of destroying?

I've enjoyed BASE because it IS an expression of personal responsibility. it is an amazing, positive act. I don't see anything positive in the complaints surrounding the list. I don't see anything positive in the loss of this educational tool. it appears that the attackers have won.

what's next? reporting potential jumps to authorities to "preserve" sites? maybe those who complained ought to get jobs with NPS. they'd fit in there.

There are at least two sides to every issue. One may not agree with why and how the list disappeared, but they can try and understand.

If you like the list so much, turn it into something meaningful without numbers and without copying the original author's words and keep it offline (for now).

Edited to add. I also thought that leaked carnage vid could have been useful in the hands of the right people. But I wasn't the right people so I deleted it.

I posted this on another topic but i think it is applicable:
I stated skydiving almost a year ago now (partly so as to get into BASE in the future) and whilst it will no doubt be a little while longer before i make my first jump (experience+money need to be weighed up) i've realised i've got all the time in the world and it's no rush. Whilst i did not start off with this view, this website and various others have been invaluable in helping me to to come to it. I spent a long time going over The List, and it helps to put things in perspective in a very raw way, but ghosting forums and websites like basewiki were also helpful.

The list was really helpful in making me 'slow down' and not be bothered about taking a mroe relaxed approach to getting into the sport as opposed to '150 jumps...i'm off'. I also thought it was a place that people used as somewhat of a memorial site and also a place to learn from other peoples mistakes (i doubt many people would have thought that much about packing a wet canopy before reading about it on places like the list>) but perhaps i have been wrong on both accounts.

I haven't read the whole forum, but people have talked about it sensationalising the sport, but really since when have BASE jumpers been bothered about the media? They do the same thing with skydiving and every other 'extreame' sport out there.
I can see that people are deeply hurt by the loss of a close friend and my condolences go out to all the friends and family of him, however i just hope that for whatever reasons they are protesting against The List, his passing is not one of them.
As i've said, i'm not a BASE jumper, so please tell my if i'm stepping out of line, but i'm just citing my views, and i thought that perhaps what i say might be helpful.

Isn't it worth enough, that the list has rescued life in the past?
More than one time?!

I dont understand, what could help it jimmy hall, that the list is removed.


Dont understand not only one of this arguments.

 

well said. people die every single fucking day.

deaths a rouelette wheel, and were all just numbers.

its just a matter of time untill the ball settles on you.

Nick, thanks for keeping the list for so long. I met you once years ago, and I think you are a stand up guy. FYI, I have printed it and it will always be a memorial to my friends who are on it, and NO ONE can change that. Blue Skies my brother.......

There was so much more information on the list. But thanx for your observations.

bullshit.

A couple of years ago my sister committed suicide, and I saw, and still see the comletely devastating effect that the death of child has on the parents.

No words can ever do justice to the absolute destruction of joy that the passing of a child, parent, spouse, can have on those left behind.

As BASE jumpers, we do not own the memories of these people. I keep the poem that was read at my sister's memorial in my locker at work and when I feel up to it, I re-read it sometimes.

If for learning, posterity, and the advancement of the sport, we need a list of the statistical circumstances that resuted in a fatality, which should be made public on the internet, great. Now that's an endeavor I would applaud.

But the list was in very bad taste and in dire need of reworking.

Can you imagine being the parent of a young man who died tragically looking at his name and number on a list, picture included of course, where the autor of the list, a man completely unknown to you, subtley implies that he was wrong for jumping in the conditions he chose to jump in and that those conditions likely provoked his death even though there were no eye witnesses with any experience that could confirm those, between the line, accusations?


Ya'll probably read Of Mice and Men in high school or college right? Sometimes you gotta decide to shoot your beloved old dog yourself before somebody else comes along and does it for you.

That's the decision Nick made, and i'm happy for him that he was able to do it.

Thanks Nick, and I'm sorry for your loss. Those who loved the BFL will always remember it with honor and respect.

Actually, if you read this thread there are several people posting who can imagine that much more clearly than you can. Did you read the post by Ms.Sofaking? Do you really think that the level of grief you feel for your friend can approach hers?

nick if you ever bring your list back, don't change a thing. the list can't be everything to everybody so you have to please yourself.

jimmy, in the meantime maybe you, clair and jason can get to reworking it

The google and yahoo cached versions are gone already. Ask.com still has a cached copy but who knows how long that will last. If you want to save a copy, for whatever reason, better get it now.

Personl question to anybody and everybody is there any BASE jumper here who would object to the truth being told about how a jump went in which they themselves died, even if it cited that they perhaps shouldn't have jumped in the conditions?

Nick, do you have a spine?

I'm sure you spent a lot of time maintaining that site, and then take it down because one group, who honestly doesn't give a F brings up a post when one of their friends goes in?

Didn't you cower down with that ebonic translator, because one person said they were offended?

Add, I don't care either way about the list, it serves a purpose to new and old jumpers alike, but it serves a greater purpose to the media...

Quoted from post #61:
I have had very mixed emotions about the list. I have read it from beginning to end. I visit it on occasion. I always pause at #103, take a deep breath and scroll on down to #104. I start to cry and I want to scream at Nick "he is more than a number on a list! He is my husband! #104 is Joe Lathrop, the love of my life!Wonderful Father to 3 children! The kindest, funniest, sexiest, thoughtful, most remarkable, beautiful man that ever walked the earth!#104 is where my life stands still. Where my future ended. It is the shattered remains of all my dreams, my hopes, my happiness, my heart, my world, my everything. NOT a number. And I cry and yell at the world for awhile.

Then I dry my tears, and take a step back. I think about "why" the list is there. Joe, knew about the list, and certainly never wanted to be on it. But, if one person reads his story, and learns from it, than it is quite possible, his story may have kept someone off the list. That is what he would have wanted.

As a future BASE jumper, the list is very sobering. I believe it should be read by anyone considering BASE.

The only suggestion I could add if it were to be changed. Because, everyone feels so different, and it is so personal. The public or media should not be a concern, they don't have to get it, or approve. Maybe if a spouse or close family or friends have strong feelings about their loved one on the list, a photo and or name could be witheld out of respect for them.

As much as it pains me to see my husband there, I think you do a good job, Nick. And I'm sorry the list keeps you busy.
I am truely sorry for your loss Jimmy, I just had my closest friend (I considered her my sister) die unexpectedly from cancer...not the same, but yet still the same in the feelings of loss. The above quote is from the wife of one of the fatalities. You have not had to lose your wife yet and your wife has not lost you, so you cannot know how much more of a loss this is to ms.sofaking unless you know her. Any loss hurts, but the loss of the father of your children and the love of your life...I can't even begin to imagine. Yet, she wants the list to continue to help others out. Her husband's death in base came from probably not removing a packing assist (IIRC). Don't you think people could learn from that. For me, I think I learn more by putting a name and a face to the lesson so it becomes more personal than just having faceless statistics that mean nothing to me.

Nick, I can understand you taking the list down. It has to be so hard to do the list and it has to weigh very heavily on your heart too. I am sure this was just the final straw that broke your back and made you say...it's not worth the fight anymore. I would like to ask you to reconsider your decision based on the fact that from what I have seen, most people here understand and need the list, and want it to remain the same.

If I died BASE jumping, I'd want the facts of the incident to be public. I wouldn't mind if my name was attached to them, and I would want to be included on The List. Iif there were video, I'd prefer that BASE jumpers watch it, and try to learn from it.

I would not mind in the least if Nick wrote about me after I died. I'm sure that lots of other people would take the opportunity speak their minds about me as well, and there's nothing I can do to prevent that.

I think separating the "online memorial" from the details is the best way to go. It'd make far more sense to use the data of each incident anonymously to present statistics on how people go in (with links to articles on how to prevent each incident). Then maybe have a have memorial page that honors the deceased by talking about (cliché, i know) how they lived, not how they died.

To be honest, I rarely look at the list because I see my buddies' faces planted right next to their fatal mistake, with little to no mention on how much they rocked up until that split second that the shit hit the fan. It's no way to recognize or honor the dead. And the numbers thing is really morbid... like a collection.

I hope a lot of the newer jumpers (who won't have the benefit of the List) have an extra large bucket of luck, because their knowledge bucket just got a whole lot smaller...

-Will

politicians, actors, etc. can all say the same. historians make a living "recording" a perspective from which many disagree.


you present an image of a free spirit, enjoying what many do not understand (getting maced, then shotgunning a beer).

you enjoy breaking the norms, defying convention (training Clair).

now you wish to establish standards of conduct?
has someone stole your password?

I've disagreed with things you've done, but still have tried to defend you from unwarranted criticism. now this.

your argument would be far more credible if you stepped to the plate and offered an alternative; show us what you would applaud. simply complaining does not suit anyone, let alone you. are you getting old?

agreed.
people can choose to:
1) complain, bitch, moan (act negatively)
2) take action to create a preferable alternative (act positively)

I just prefer option 2)!
which also seems to be the preference of Spatula Rigging. cool.
and it also appears the preference of Jimmy Hall's family/friends/fans who created a special website. again, cool.

Bring the list back Nick. As Mr. Spock use to say,"The needs of the many out way the needs of the FEW"!!

Geez, harden up Jimmy, we've all lost friends... Guess what? They're on the list...

And hey, some of us actually learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before us... That was the whole purpose of the list.

The list was just fine the way it was, and served a useful purpose, it didn't need modifying to make it palatable for those little whiney bitches that couldn't take seeing a number next to their buddies name.

When next someone goes in coz they tied a pull up around their pc, or they over delayed in the fog, or they go unstable on an underhung cliff or they got suckered low on a wingsuit jump, well you can just accept some of the blame, coz they didn't have access to the list any more...

Nick, thanks for all the effort, and know that you provided a valuable service to at least one of us and I applaud your contribution to making BASE what it is today.

~Edited to remove confrontational content.

To me THE LIST is a great tool, and a constant reminder not to get complacent. I did not find anything disrespectful about it. It's a tribute. It's a collection of facts. It's something to refer back to next time you almost say "fuck it, it will probably work" . Basically I think THE LIST does a good job of keeping people OFF OF it ...

But of course bitching and moaning is fun too ...

Ease down, there. We can discuss this topic without resorting to calling people names.

Remove the 1st and 5th paragraphs of your post, and it would still convey your point quite well, and it wouldn't be nearly so confrontational. Wouldn't that be a better way to make your point?

Most people bicker about their differences without realizing how much they have in common. There are lessons in the List and I personally think it could not have been done any better than it currently has been done by Mr. Nick DG. I have friends on the list and I feel good that they are remembered for what they did and I consider the list to be a celebration of life, the human spirit, and a lesson for those who want to proceed along a similar path.

Jimmy, suicide destroys every friend and family member of the suicide victim. Chill out. We're all original and original - just like everyone else - and most people in the world have run the gamut of emotions dealing with things even more tragic.

The list should stay as it is and we should actually send a care package to Nick for his hard work as the writing funeral director of BASE. This list has kept more people out of trouble than you could imagine... - including me.

Thanks Nick!

Chris
BASE 460
atomic physicist

Jimmy, I'm very sorry about your recent and past losses. It really hurts. It always hurts. I know that you said you were done with the conversation. You've given your salutations to Nick. But I know you'll be back to see who's posted what next. I was in that boat 6 months ago.

Ms.sofaking is one of my best friends. Her husband Joe was a big brother to me. Always watching out for me, pushing me when I needed it, employing me when I needed it, and making me feel like I was the best damn person just when I needed it most. I really miss him. Ms.sofaking's reply is extremely honest. I've only seen the kind of love that her and Joe had a couple times in my life. Joe's death has been a tremendous loss! As a friend I still find myself going off my deep end of grief because I'm pist at Joe for leaving Ms.sofaking and his kids with so much pain and sorrow.

After 6 months (and it still feels like it's only been a month) Ms.sofaking is reaching out and saying that Nick's work is a helpful tool. She does understand loss and she understands how Joe's death being publicized has helped others. I also want to commend her on her strength through all this. She is such a beautiful person. I really hope you listen to what she has to say about this list.

I had to dig a little bit for it but check out this thread. (Iowa Skydivers Drunk and Rude @ Twin Falls Outback) It may be easiest to click on my profile and look up my comments to find the post. This is a thread that begun very shortly after Joe's death. It still hurts but I've learned alot from Nick and Tom and even Sullyflyer, who I now hold dear to my heart. You'll understand what I mean if you read this thread.

I bring it up, because it's a great example of sheer anger, denial, blame and tons of pain. Sullyflyer had a very valid point and it got lost through all the drama of emotions and the occassional assholes that pop in on threads to fuel the emotions for their own sick entertainment. I bet if I was thinking more rationally, the way Sullyflyer worded his post would not have bothered me as much. But, like the list, you're angry, your in denial and you just want to beat something beautiful! Then Eureka! You found a target. Mine that day was Sullyflyers thread. I think yours is Nick's list.

My point is, know that people here understand loss. Is it possible that you are projecting your emotions onto Nick? (Totally rhetorical question.) Give it some thought. If so, please ask him to reconsider his resignation. It's very apparent throughout this thread that this list has helped more than it has hurt. I would much rather have someone like Nick or Tom or Sullyflyer (who's not in this thread) manage such a heart wrenching list, than someone with less respect for the beauty of life and people that these men have. And I do think that when it comes to BASE jumping, this list is a helpful tool. Not only to learn from but also in a strange way it builds a tighter camaraderie amongst you crazy f*ckers (referring to the BASE family). And that's very, very important to hold on to.

Joe made a huge mistake. A very stupid mistake. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the pictures trying to deny them. Joe was an excellent jumper. His death is very hard to make sense of. But even in his death he's given me many gifts. Him continuously teaching me is at the top of the list.

Much empathy and respect ~ a wuffo to BASE

Nicely written Stacie!

Thanks for taking the time to post it and sharing what are obviously painful feelings with us!

Peace

Lets take a look at the poster who's name appears at the beginning of this thread.

He is one who prides himself on his personal carnage footage. example. On one of his videos, a skydiver hits power lines at Lodi. The poster is videoing the incident. When it happens, there is no wondering if the individual is ok. All you here is the original poster screaming euphorically "I got it on video, I got it all on video!!!!!"

He is one who prides himself on death camping improperly prepared jumpers. example. The YouTube video of his then 16 year old wife with 0 canopy experience on the death side of the rail with a twist in her MLW and an unprepped PC. Or the UK jumper that MAc expressed such dismay about.

He is one who prides himself with HIDAGAF or whatever the lame acronym is, but obviously only until his own feelings are hurt.

He is one who ridicules DZ.com, but jumps at the chance to shamelessly promote himself as a possible co-moderator to TA.

He is one who ridicules DZ.com, but anytime anything that involves his personal (ie. selfish) agenda is at stake uses this site for the shameless self promotion of his ideas/ideals.

He is one who claims to not know who took care of the list - when NickDG has his personal bio, an image and his email on the very same list. When the original poster has had conversations with Nick that he obviously was upset with the outcome of.

He is one who posts of how "disgusting" the BFL is, yet several posts later speaks of making it into a drinking game. And taking pictures of jumpers passed out for the list.

You can view the above in two ways. 1. As a list of uncorrelated events/occurences OR 2. As a deplorable pattern.

1) have you ever seen something really funny where the person didn't get hurt and you wished to God you had your camera? I have a million times. When I got the shot of that guy hitting the power lines which obviously saved him from a very serious injury, I was stoked and I was like for once, "I totally got that shot."

2) the twist in the main lift web, while looking a little ugly, in no way put her in any danger and the pilot chute would have inflated the second she let go of it. It's not like we had a restrictive device tied around it.

3) the jumper MAc has issues with has enough experience to begin his BASE career

4) Honestly I don't give a fuck, and my arguement has been misunderstood about the List from the very beginning except by Nick who obviously got every word.

5) I riducule DZ.com because a lot of the time it's very, very lame. Without DZ.com, the List would still be up. And yes I would make a great moderator because I often bring differing, if not always popular ideas.

6) I'm not selfish. You're selfish because anytime I have something to say that doesn't fit into your model of the way BASE should be pursued, you try to call me out on really superficial complaints which obviously hold no water.

7) I don't know who runs the list. I know it is a guy Named NickDG who I spoke to once about a rig for Clair. The conversation ended with him telling me that they would be happy to make her a rig after she turned 18. I said, "cool" no problem and we hung up. No big deal there, but it doesn't mean I know him. I couldn't pick him out in a line up. and as far as the guy who writes the list, I'm not sure any of us really know who that is. I'm talking abut who that man really is when he's fulfilling his role as List caretaker.

8) The List is disgusting and so is the sport wide fascination with it. That's my opinion and it has consitently been my opinion ever since the day I realized it existed. My post about the drinking game was completely facetious and sarcastic. I mean seriously taking pictures of your passed out friends and sending them to a guy who will use them as photos for their "memorial" shot on the Death List? That's almost as sick as pissing on your friend's grave.

Hey bro before you try to call me out on my behavioral patterns, why don't you look at some of patterns that are seen again and again and again by the participants of this sport.

I'll take this conversation private whenever you are ready.

Some things can be indicative of a lack of attention to detail without being life threatening. It's important to pay attention to those "gentle" reminders, because in BASE, eventually the reminders will stop being gentle.



That may be a matter of opinion, in which yours varies from Mac's. You've clearly stated, on numerous occasions, that in your opinion no previous experience is necessary to begin BASE jumping. Given that, I'd say that by your standards, anyone has "enough experience to begin his BASE career."




I think that you're misunderstanding the role of the moderator here. It doesn't really matter what the moderators' ideas and opinions are, and it's not necessary that a moderator have any particular opinions, or express any opinions. Moderating the forums is a task that is often unrelated to posting on them.




You realize that you're replying to someone who has made two total posts, right? I doubt that this poster has responded "anytime [you] have something to say."




Seriously, Jimmy, I've seen you provide well thought out justifications and answers for many of your opinions, even those that are way out of the mainstream. Would you be willing to answer a couple questions for me?

1) What is the negative impact on a student of reading The List? It seems like you think that it's not just unnecessary, it's actually a negative, that somehow hurts the students learning process. Can you explain why you think this? Can you give examples where reviewing The List made a student more likely to be hurt?

2) What happened to "not giving a fuck?" You obviously do care about what the greater BASE community is doing in this case. This really seems to fly in the face of your oft-proclaimed personal philosophy. Can you reconcile this? Is it possible that other people honestly do give a fuck about some of the stuff that you loudly proclaim "HIDGAF" about? Could it be that some of the things you've done, that other people have protested, have actually been things they care about? Can this experience help you put yourself in those other people's shoes, and realize that going through life "not giving a fuck" may not be the most useful philosophy, and that perhaps showing some concern for others points of view might be more productive?

NO SHIT!!!

Hey Tom,
I realize that MurderBase just made the profile, but I was assuming that under a different name he's probably vocalized issues about my actions in the past, and I often reply to one person as though I'm replying to a whole group, cuz that saves time.

Now to answer your questions, they're super easy:

1) My issue with the list is not that students learn from it and therebye begin with a stronger foundation of knowledge which will help them stay alive. If it were purely that, I would be on the side of keeping it, of course.

My problem is that it reads and often is read like the Darwin Awards, except that the Darwin Awards at least change the names of people and don't post pictures, I think. I have been in rooms where people are hunched over computers laughing out loud while reading the BASE fatality List, with quite a few "Oh My God What a Fucking Idiot!" thrown in. It's not a very good memorial site in my opinion. I still believe that the person writing the list has morbid fascination with his job as list guy, I also think that BASE jumpers are fascinated to a degree of unhealthiness with it. Remember the "Who's gonna be #100" conversation? #100? Who's it gonna be? Then there was a post titled "#100 was in my back yard." Like it was a claim to fame. The writer of the list and those who love it have a thing for the process of the tragedy involved in it.

But when called on it, everyone says it keeps people alive.

Tom, I also have an issue with the fact that you have your students write a letter to their family before they start BASE jumping as if they had gone in.

I hear your reasoning behind it, and I know why you do it, but I still find it morbid and would not reccomend your course for that simple fact. It's an obsession with death and that which we obsess on becomes reality.

Again, I do not have a problem with new BASE jumpers learning from past mistakes.


that leaves your HIDGAF question right?

I honestly don't give a fuck whether you think I actually give a fuck about certain things. See what I mean?

I noticed Tom did this. I understand this completely.
I think should you ever walk in the shoes of a widow or parent who has lost a child you might change your opinion on this one. I don't know Tom's personal story, or why he seems to have such insight to the needs of family left behind, but he does. I think the letter is a way of truly looking at the impact your death would have on your family. And provides answers to questions your family may need. It is not obessing about death. Do you consider having a will or life insurance obsessing about death? You seem to have changed your philosophy after a death hit close to home. I am sorry for your loss. You might also have a different opinion about the letter if it should happen to your spouse. Losing a spouse is something you cannot begin to fathom until it happens to you. I know I could not have. And although my husband did not leave such a letter, we spoke of the possibillities. I want you all to know, coming from a grief stricken wife left behind, the letter is a good idea. And anyone questioning the letter should make the effort to get the opinions of family who has suffered this loss, as I am not alone.

I'm not going to get in the middle of all aspects of this little drama, but I have seen MANY posters hammering Jimmy about HIDGAF and referring to it as his "philosophy" of life (or words to that effect) as if it supposedly applied to everything in his life. I've been reading here a long time, and while I have seen HIDGAF thrown around a lot (obviously including by Jimmy), I have NEVER seen Jimmy say that applied to everything in his life. Maybe you and the others here who want to take shots at him have taken it that way, but I am pretty sure you can't find a single post where he has said that applies to everything. I mean, after all, it's HIDGAF, not HIDGAFA[bout]A[nything]. There is nothing inherently contradictory about him caring about some things and still touting HIDGAF with respect to other matters. So enough about HIDGAF. If you want to keep hammering him about his views regarding the list, go ahead. But get off the HIDGAF shit! It's really not part of the issue here. It's just something associated with Jimmy that you are now using to get in some digs at him with.

By this logic, you should never practice your emergency procedures while skydiving, because practicing them will lead you to experience a cutaway.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make dangers go away--it just makes them blindside you because you aren't watching out for them.

point taken

however going over emergency prcedures is asking a student to visualize certain types of scenarios during which he or she will need to make proactive decisions in order to stay alive.

Some of this other death stuff seems like it's asking a cloud of death to constantly hang over your head, and visualising your death to the point where you are writing about yourself as if you are already gone. ick.

Do you have them write a letter for each scenario so that their loved ones will more clearly understand why they died? Like a line over letter, a no/low pull letter, an object strike letter. Or a "hey I was just being a complete jackass and I did a really, really stupid thing, so now I'm dead."

Or do you have them write to their family that now that they are dead, they should look up the BASE fatality list to get the details?


Oh and about that main lift web thing. It just dawned on me that you might think I was unaware that Clair's main lift web was twisted? That it is an indication of a lack of attention to detail?

No. We couldn't find a rig small enough for her, and that was when no one was willing yet to make her one (understandably so), and the one we were using was just a little too big so that the chest strap kept smacking her in the face on opening. So we put a twist in each side of the main lift web to take out about an inch. It was intentional. Good idea? Well it worked while we needed it to.

Oh and the Mac thing and whether the jumper in question has enough experience to begin his BASE career. I meant that by MAC's standards he surely has enough experience to begin. Not by mine. And by begin his BASE career, I mean asking around to see who might be able to help him and guide him a little bit because as far as I know, that is all that he was doing when Mac got pissed at me.

I thought the letter was:

A. To help your family come to grasp with why exactly you were BASE jumping in the first place.

B. In doing so, to hopefully persuade a grieving family member not to go on a tangent sueing gear manufacturers and bombarding every elected and/or public official with correspondence attempting to outlaw BASE more than it already is.

Ms. SofaKing:

I applaud and thank you you for taking the time to follow and contribute to this thread.

All of us could only wish to possess your courage.

Kurt

Yes, that's what I had thought. Thanks for clearing that up.

Here's a rough summary of the instructions I give them:

Write a letter to your family explaining that you have died BASE jumping.

At a minimum, include:
a) the fact that you have died
b) a statement that you understood the risks you were taking
c) a request that they not try to hold anyone else responsible for your actions
d) some explanation of why you wanted to BASE jump, and what you hoped to get out of it

I also recommend you include:
a) some personal things
b) a statement that you love them
c) a statement that they shouldn't hold themselves responsible for what you have chosen to do


Here's my reasoning for doing this exercise:

1) It acts as my waiver. A handwritten letter explaining that you know the risks (including death) is going to be much stronger in court than a "check off, initial and sign" type waiver.

2) The families of deceased jumpers have tried to sue other jumpers, close objects, and lobby against jumping generally. Hopefully, this will help your family understand, and reduce those types of problems.

3) I want my students to honestly evaluate the risks and rewards of BASE jumping, and weigh them against other things in their lives. BASE jumping is not your entire life, and especially if you have responsibilities (to children, primarily), it is important that you honestly assess the risks and decide that they are really worth the rewards, for you. Those risks include the impact on your family if you are hurt or killed.

4) If someone dies BASE jumping, I want the family to have some kind of communication from them, which can help in the grieving process.



I tell them all of this before they write the letter. I've had students who wrote short notes just hitting the points I asked for, but most of them take longer, and write things that are more deeply personal and meaningful. I've also had more than one student openly crying by the time they finished writing. I've never had a student tell me they thought writing this was a waste of their time, though, or that they didn't want to, or that they regretted writing it.

This is Shakespeare.

It's things like this that make me think there should be a private forum for BASE instructors.

God job Tom.

I hadn't thought about it like that.

If this were a private forum, there might well be several BASE instructors worldwide who perhaps have never contemplated these issues that maybe never would.

You might argue that that subset would be least receptive to this concept anyway, but I'd suggest that even discussing the letter with a new student is beneficial to both, even if they decide not to write the letter.

Taken to extreme (although this example is not hypothetical) a BASE instructor or mentor that is young and immature would read that explanation for the letter and at least briefly glimpse something of the magnitude of responsibilty that they're taking on.

Tom's letter requirement was a factor in which FJC I signed up for, as well as references from friends about BASE instructors. I also thought it was just a letter to your family, I never realized that is was a "now that I'm dead" letter.

When I was looking for a FJC, I had not yet told my parents I was skydiving, or planning on BASE jumping. I did tell them right after my first skydive, which was 6 years before my second, and I knew they didn't approve of me doing it again.

I told my parents about everything the week before Bridge Day. After finding out that I had been skydiving almost every weekend for a couple years, my mom asked "why don't you just go jump off a bridge", and I responded, "that's what I'm doing next weekend". At least this made skydiving and flying small airplanes seem safe in comparison to BASE.

They're not happy about me BASE jumping, being a pilot, or skydiving, but at least they now know that I do it because I enjoy it. I can guess that they would throw a fit and possibly sue someone if I went in. They did try to sue some people after a major skiing accident I had when I was 13, but eventually gave up on the case.

This post doesn't really have a point, I guess I should probably write a will, talk more to my parents about what to do if I go in, and leave instructions for what to do after I die. I'll try my best not to, but I would want the real story on Nick's BFL.

A lot of people will. The way these families cope with a thing like a child dieing is so insanely wrong.

they will try to find anything. anything at all to get back.

it is never for money, never. it is for revenge.
some even say that it is 'teaching a lesson, so this kind of thing wont happen again' but thats not it

IT IS REVENGE.

please, for the love of god, write a letter. EVERYONE should write a letter, not even BASE jumpers.

a letter stateing that you do not want any legal or civil action to be taken in any way should the event of a death or living will thing happen.

would YOU sue someone? if not, write a letter saying you dont want it to happen.

didn't mean it that way. just a separate forum for base instructors to exchange ideas and concepts without the fluff and extreme opinions of a bunch of nonjumpers and newer jumpers.

how do you think the participators in such forums should me controled or picked? the USBA?

no really, i htink its a viable idea.

QuoteTom:

"Some things can be indicative of a lack of attention to detail without being life threatening. It's important to pay attention to those "gentle" reminders, because in BASE, eventually the reminders will stop being gentle."

Tom, another reason why I like your input!

Joy

Nick and Space, I couldn't agree more. The Fatality List is a part of the history of this wonderfully crazy sport just like the BASE Number list. We of course keep the BASE list names confidential for old traditional values when a lot of cops and bosses didn't think too highly of us outlaw jumpers. As far as the BFL, I really feel the names need to stay on a published list. Many were my friends as well. Nick, take heart, I don't believe that most jumpers favor not having the list. Hell, if you couldn't die, this would be such a boring sport, most of us would be doing something else. If some of the newest jumpers don't understand what we're saying, then maybe the real spirit of what we all knew BASE to be in the first 10 years or so could be getting a bit lost. I hope not, Joy and I still get some great enthusiastic stories. The list needs to stay so some people with common sense enough to know the sport maybe too scary for them will go skydive instead.
Rick

FYI,
I've been eligable for a BASE # for way over a year now, and you know what? I haven't even thought of sending my info into whoever does that list.

It's a Fucking Sport. All of you that are stuck in the 80's are like anchors keeping this sport from launching itself into the future.

I uderstand the desire to keep it a "brotherhood." But guess what? It isn't that anymore. Not only can you guys from the 80's not keep it a "Brotherhood," but those getting into it now can't tap into that "brotherhood" either.

Unlike other sports, I think the smallish apsect of BASE holds a certain appeal. Right on. Every body in the sport will know you by name if not by face, but you better get your name out there quick cuz those days are fading.

Out here in Norcal, new BASE jumpers are multiplying like little gizmos that have had gallons of water poured on them, and some are eating after midnight.

Soon, there will be BASE parks all over the world and more and more sites in the US will open up. Just like wind tunnels which cost a couple of million dollars to make but turn a nice profit. The sport of BASE jumping will be able to come out of the cloak and dagger shadows and hold it's head up at action sports expos all over the world.

There will be competitions and televised events, and athletes from all over the world will be recognised for the time and energy they spent getting good.

I know it sounds disgusting to those of you who love knowing every other person on the BFL, but guess what? It is the future, and no matter what, the future always arrives.

Growing pains always hurt. But it's a hurt that passes and this too shall pass.

you are welcome to your viewpoint, but I view the state of BASE differently.

many of the most well-known BASE sites throughout the world have had a rash of incidents and accidents. local residents have started grumbling about the wisdom of continuing to let BASE jumpers jump.

even a politician in NYC sought votes recently by endorsing an anti-BASE jumping law.

hopefully, the BFL adds sobriety and thus prevents the incidents and accidents that endanger the sport. the BFL helps keep sites open.

you may see a rash of new jumpers, but do you see a rash of new BASE sites? I don't. I have read about sites put at risk. the successfull high-profile jumping occurs at controlled events (such as KL & BD). carnage is more likely at uncontrolled events (remember last year during the "big" weekends at TF?)

maybe commercial BASE parks will generate enough funds to properly lobby politicians. to bad I know of none. as such, it is incredibly easy for politicians to demagogue the issue. sex may sell, but fear leads to votes. since much of the public fears BASE, some politician will stoke that fear to advance themselves. the best way to get the politicians on our side is via hefty political contributions.

hopefully, people like Jason CAN achieve some success. there are others trying.

several different organizations have been created to change NPS policy. none have succeeded to date. I'm unaware of any activity to open a privately owned object. (maybe the RGB?) in the US, the liability issues will dampen the owner's enthusiasm.

as for competitions, they have been tried. maybe their time will come, but history is against it.

how am I misreading history? you've lived through more of it than I. I'd be happy for you to educate me on how I'm wrong...

until then, I prefer being a realist. I may die on any given jump. I need to structure my life accordingly (respect to those who jump less after gaining children). I need to pick and choose my jumps based on the risk and my skill level. I will reference the BFL to enhance my situational awareness.

Mr Halliday ...
you probably are going to be proved right.
(BASE Expos's, Parks, legal events/comps etc)

But to be fair....the attraction to me would always still be meeting up ...maybe somewhere you shouldnt ,making our own assessments on the :
access,jump, landing area, weather conditions....
doing the jump and getting away unhurt and undetected.....with all the emotions you experience with that...
bit of fear, bit of uncertainty...the dry mouth and no spit you have after a long climb....the way your heart races looking over the edge of something new the first time.

For that , anyone I share the work & experience with is my 'brother'
As much as the 'sport' ( I prefer the word discipline myself) might evolve into a big showy, easy access event....I think the hardcore of jumpers will still subscribe to the above....
I could be wrong, please call me on it if I am.
As much as we all might say having something completely legit that we can get an elevator to the top would be great....I think deep down we all know we are missing something else,something special, on those kind of jumps

I love the idea of a BASEpark, and i would go to one if they existed. but they dont. yet.
My family and other jumpers together have looked at BASE 'parks in the US. and come to two seperate investors for the idea and investment. we were not quite laughed out, but we were laughed at.

would you invest in a park?
we assume a US park, as thats what we looked into.

As are cheap considering the monuments they are. Bs are nearly out of the question, Es are event only, and Ss are as well.

so a BASE park would have to be a modified A. 1,000,000 for a 1700' A.

thats easy.

but i dont want to go skydiving anymore. its to expensive.

but imagine the noobs that would get into it if it cost as much as the big swing at six flags?

no go man.

BASE to me is

"A sport of Kings"... 'lost kings'. -me and a deceased jumper.

and i think it always will be. we are not elitist's, we are the the few, stupid and motivated enough to find that one little place in our psyche, to be absolytly at peace for a few seconds. and have that lightweight feeling in our whole bodies for the next few infinities.

cat and mouse... I dont like to think of it that way, but it kinda fits.

We are a band of brothers. the kind that finds pleasure in defeating gravity and defying the law. not out of a detest for law, but a small pleasurful arguement of validity.

What you said about the "80s jumpers/brothers" and us new ones, you were right. they will never let us in and it will never be as good as it was back then. but they will never have that feeling of light after their first E again. they have something we do not, and weneed to respect them for that. but we deserve rspect for being here now.

the '80s jumpers' want us to treat it like it was the80s, but we cant be in their club. there is a lot of truth to that. but its not totaly there. we all learned from them. if not directly, they paved the way. we are in their club, but no their click.

the way you think of it jimmy, it seems to me at least, the list if continued will just perpetuate what was already learned. and will do little good for education. there could be validity to that. but to a point.

skydiving gear has changed little in the last 20 years. so has the procedures. as much as BASE has in the last 10.

but everyone dies now from being morons and doing the one thing that was screwed into their heads on the first jump, dont turn to low. everyone knows that. everyone thinks about it. but people just keep going in.

hopeless...

BASE is the same way. people justify learning with jump numbers and canopy progression and experience in both feilds, but people go in who are good and educated and current in BASE and Swoop.

hopeless...

new canopy flight classes and FJCs do a lot of good, but they also make it OK to be accelerated into the sports.


...and one day, jimmy, us as well, will grow old. jumper population will rise, gear will keep getting better, people will keep going in. and we, now the '2000s' jumpers will bitch about the next generation of jumpers. and how they are throwing away the brotherhood we had.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but my point was that a private forum would be a step backwards. There is no shortage of people that feel in some way ostracised from other jumpers, especially where internet forums are concerned. Maybe they've done some less than ideal jumps and been on the end of some good old fashioned bitching. Maybe they just don't write english well enough to be confidant putting themselves forward to join a private forum. Maybe they just don't feel that they should have to stand any scrutiny before joining a private forum.

For these reasons and others, they would miss out on such useful and thought provoking information and ideas. Some of these exact same people are teaching and mentoring, right now. Many of them read this forum, for entertainment, or to see who's bitching about them at the moment. Take any useful discussion to a private forum and these people will be excluded. The very people perhaps in greatest need of listening to such a discussion.

As far as newer jumpers (and even non jumpers), they all have valid opinions and can sometimes contribute significantly.

I hear what you're saying about the noise ratio: log in here after only a few days and you're not short of posts to read. Not all of it is useful, or even entertaining. It's worth skim reading a few posts in exchange for not missing all the good stuff people put up here.

jimmyh, getting my BASE # was one of the coolest accomplishments ever for me. Funny thing though, you make it sound like BASE #'s, Duran Duran and Ronald Reagan are all part of the same tired old scene. Sorry you feel that way even if you aren't. And sorry you're breeding endless new jumpers in SoCal, most of the rest of the States have growth more in control I think.

Are you coming to the GoFast Games so I can see this hotshit new futuristic sport you're apart of. I'll be be there with my Wonderhog and a Pursuit 215 kickin it all old school, but I'd love to see how the kings of this futuristic new wave get it done. I'll bring my Cyndi Lauper records.

Peace and love jimmyh, just funnin ya!

edit to add: BASE#637 BABY!!!!!!!!!

 

Actually, there is a BASE park in the works in the USA.

hmmm... i want to say i dont buy it for a second. but i need more info.

please elaborate?

It's called Europe.

Edited to add: isn't it?

or its called NOT united states.

things are about the get interesting. especially regarding the base park.

old jumpers being anchors? hey, who else jumps from the top of moving trains, climbs the exterior of buildings and jumps from a wooden plank with cops at the top with signs saying "you are guilty of trespassing, does twop jumps (two on one parachute), climbs technical routes with a rig to jump, defines brand new highly technical sites... who eludes the guards and jumps buildings night after night. not many new jumpers. most just drive to the same old site day after day, especially if it's legal. who walks off a cliff on stilts (phil smith, base 1), who does it with a pogo stick, or phil mayfield (base 2) who walked off of the edge of the big cliff in Yosemite on his hands while wearing a huge movie camera on his head, jumped off the holding unit at Kennedy Space Center with the shuttle attached, who jumps into volcanos? there are true adventurers among the newer ones but it seems like fewer. arials were not a real possibility in the past but linked arials are the way of the future. and birdman jumps. the norgies are really impressing me with their jumping. i get chills of excitement when i see their hot shit wingsuiting. the aussies are pretty hot stuff too. god i love this sport.

keep the list.

if you don't like, don't read it and don't let your students read it. PERIOD.

yeah, well well just see how many jumps mr jimmy on holliday is doing when hes 57 years old.

id bet few.

ok... good... i agree.

but BASE park?

more than one person seems to know about it.

Don't get too carried away or I am going to join Jimmy and give you crap...

amen for keeping me in check.