Basejumper.com - archive

Hey all, been lurking for a while. I'm a new skydiver with about 30 jumps. I'm looking to get into BASE in the next week or so. Alright just kidding. I will definitely be doing the suggested 150-200 +++ jumps before any BASE jumps for sure. My question is, I'm looking to buy a skydiving rig that would help me with any future BASE career. Whenever I get into BASE, I will be buying all BASE specific gear for sure. However, I would prefer not to skydive with a BASE specific canopy, as I like skydiving / canopy work and fun too much. Also, things change, so if after 200 more jumps I don't want to BASE anymore I dont want to be stuck with a BASE only canopy. With this said, I understand that a nice 7 cell skydiving canopy will contribute to some good BASE canopy skills later on. I was wondering what your thoughts were on a PD Spectre 7 cell? I know it's ZP, so I don't know if I should go for F-111, but I've seen a lot of rave reviews on the spectre. I like the CR Black Jack for a future BASE canopy. Would the Spectre be good for me?

how much can you spend?

spectre's are really nice, a good mix if thats possible. but still, not trimmed or sized like BASE canopies.

and definatly go for the Composite BlackJack.

Well I'm rich by no means - But money is no object when it comes to a life saving object on my back for sure - I'll get the best, even if it takes me longer to obtain. As far as skydiving goes, I'm guessing a skydiving canopy like the Spectre would outperfrom a BASE canopy, but I'm guessing. Besides, I might raise some eyebrows at the DZ when they saw me with a BASE canopy... :)

Why do you assume that? I don't think you'd be the first...

You're probably right - It was just a joke. I'm sure I might get a few questions but it probably wouldn't be a big deal. I would actually be more concerned about canopy performance at the DZ than eyebrows...And from what I call tell the Spectre would outperform and BlackJack as for as things go at the DZ.

outperform? dude, think about it. skydiving is for fun. thats it. nothing more. BASE is for beauty, fun, being everywhere. and LANDING everywhere. and NOT CRASHING INTO SHIT.

its just a different 'perform'

and the BJ is the best. in my godly opinion.

I'm in exactly the same boat. I figured that, unless I managed to find an old clapped-out BASE canopy, it would just be a waste wearing out a canopy doing too many skydives on it. Currently I'm looking at getting a Triathalon 195, which at my weight (135 lbs) is also about the right wingloading for a sub-100 jump skydiver on which to practice canopy control and accuracy.

Good luck!

Composite top skins are only for people who can't pack / are scaried to pack full ZP Top Skins

Buy a Flick (great all round canopy)

Greeny

full ZP is for people who think the whole topskin matters.

all you need is the first 30%

also, ZP makes for a larger pack volume (meaning less effiecient track/wingsuit) and more weight in canopy and rig size.

so, if you only need the first 30%, thats all that goes into it.

packing zp is harder and takes slightly longer, and is not as clean of a final packjob.

its all personal preference. if i had a flick, i would be defending it, and i would be little bit richer.



I like my Blackjack.

Ralph, I'm curious how many jumps you have under a Blackjack?

Matt, how about you under a Flik?


In my experience, the vast majority of people who say that a specific piece of gear is "the best" are actually just saying that it's the one they have the most experience with.

i have 3 jumps at potato on a non-composite flik.

but like i said, i would be defending a flik if thats what i jump. i think.

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like you can't go wrong with the Blackjack or any other BASE specific canopy for that matter. Guess it depends on who you talk to.

I'm guessing that getting a Spectre now will make it easier to learn the Blackjack once I transition than the Sabre 2 I was also considering.

Tom,

I agree completely, we are all bias towards what we jump.

I have Zero jumps under a Blackjack

All my jumps have been on Mojos, Foxs & Flicks

I can not say this is better than that but I can say the foxs & flicks which I have put a lot of jumps on from terminal to low freefall and I am very happy with their performance. The Mojo worked well for 90 jumps but I wanted something with vents.

I am just trying to balance the tread. If they are coming up saying the BlackJack is the Dog's then there should be someone saying there is more than one good canopy out there look at the all, listen to everyone then decide.

Greeny

This is drifting off topic. The original question was not "what is the best BASE canopy" (which is a good question, but comes up often so there is a lot in the archives) but "what is the best canopy for skydiving, if I want to hone my skills for BASE?" Any information or anecdotes in this area specifically would be appreciated.

dude, it costs more, it HAS to be better

The best canopy for that is the one that you will use to BASE jump, when you start.

Their are different parameters for using skydiving and BASE canopies, though. Skydiving canopies need to last longer (part of the reason that they're ZP), they need to pack smaller (who wants to be the dork with a huge 260 on their back in the plane?), and they need to penetrate wind better (since there is a lot more time for wind to blow you off course if you're opening at 2500 feet). They also tend to be built to open slower and softer, to fly "swoopier." Further, they aren't generally engineered for 100% reliability in opening (since there is a reserve that is built with that in mind).

With that in mind, I'd recommend one of two courses:

(a) don't worry about BASE training on that canopy, and just get one that fits your other needs. When you want to start BASE, borrow or rent an appropriate canopy and spend some time making BASE specific training jumps with it.

(b) buy an actual BASE canopy, or (if funding is an issue) a large 7-cell F-111 canopy (I believe PD still makes them, actually, as well as PA and several other manufacturers). Just accept the fact that you're not going to be a cool kid at the DZ, and start jumping with those stodgy old guys who do things like CRW and Accuracy.


Neither of these are actually going to need that Spectre. I'd say either go with the Sabre 2, or go all the way and get a much more BASE like canopy. The flight performance of the Spectre, especially in a typical skydiving size, just isn't that similar to a BASE canopy.

I got a FALCON 300 you can buy for cheap, like $320.

It is F-111, Square, has Dacron Lines, and is huge -- but has 9 cells.

Get a large Raven! It won't cost much and is very similar to a base canopy.

When you try to fly skydiving approaches into tight landing areas with wierd winds on the way down you do things like crashing into trees. I tried that and while it didn't hurt the first time I saw the potential and got more serious about accuracy with a big J7 so I could crank out dozens of accuracy jumps over a few weeks in the most forgiving environment possible.

Accuracy is about size. You need a canopy is big enough that you get comfortable landings when you land it in deep brakes without much flare left. Since PD doesn't make Spectres bigger than 230 square feet it's not an option if you weigh over 150 pounds and even then it's not going to sink like a classic seven cell. It's also not going to be fun the same way as a smaller canopy is.

Accept that different facets of parachute sports call for different gear and get more of it. Used gear is not that expensive - I spent $700 for my J7 and Raven III reserve (it'll hold BASE canopies from 222 out past 280 square feet), and if your tastes change you won't loose much money selling it (new gear in your colors is a different story).

it depends on which skills you wish to hone...

personally, start with an appropriate size that you can land safely. the first skill ought to be survival.

the second skill I'd recommend is learning your canopy inside and out. become your own rigger. know how the parts work and are connected.

third, learn canopy drills. find out what your parachute can do, at a safe altitude.

fourth, start borrowing gear. find out what works for you.

I'm not convinced a big BASE parachute is a great idea for a first rig. they fly differently. I've seen small dz's where few even remember how to land the big ones. sad, but true. if you have access to people who do remember (and can coach you), ask THEM about an appropriate canopy.

since you are asking the question here, you might stick with a skydiving main. you need to survive and build confidence. feeling out of place at the dz, with no one to ask for advice, is a bad situation...

In my opinion, I think getting a semi-large spectre would be an ideal decision in a pre-emtive attempt at getting into BASE. They are a great all around performing skydiving canopy. They are much better for CRW than the lightning is. Line it with dacron, put red or black center lines on it with no cascades. Great for wingsuit openings, and I can dial the one I use in on a target in a similar fasion as I would in a BASE eviroment, only in DZ conditions. Go with it man, don't go too small, maybe load it @ .8 or so.

I'm actually fairly sure the canopies are very comparable in price, once you include the options. The Blackjack appears to cost more because the price of the valves is already factored into the canopy, and because there is no multiple bridle attachment required for the ZP foreskin option.


Flik 266: $1325
Vtec: $350

Flik 266 vtec: $1675

For ZP topskin:
Multi: $175
ZP topskin: $250

Flik 266 Vtec, ZP topskin (multi): $2100

But note that $175 of that price is the multi, so if you could get a non-multi ZP topskin (which is an option that I don't think Apex will build), to get a truly comparable canopy, that would be $1925.


Blackjack 260: 1789
Composite topskin: 200

Blackjack 260, Composite topskin: $1989


Which means that the Flik is about 60 bucks cheaper, if you're trying for an apples-to-apples comparison, but in the real world (where you must have the multi to get a ZP topskin on the Flik), you're actually looking at paying about a hundred bucks more for the Flik.

I stand corrected. again.

I thought the price went up for the BlackJack, I ordered mine from CR in 2005 october and paid 1950.00ish.

i thought it went up in 2006. to around 2400 for the same wing (all options)