Basejumper.com - archive

I've been asking myself this question a lot lately, and the more I think about it, the more I realize that I think the answer to this question is NO.

I'm curious to hear some of you experienced BASE guys opinions on this, yes or no, and why or why not.

Not looking for any arguments, here. Just some different opinions on the topic.

Thanks guys.

No.

And you'd think someone like me, who makes money teaching First Jump Courses, would be the most likely to think the other way.


What are the advantages to us if more people participate, or if there is more visibility?

The only ones I can see are:

1) More money goes into gear advancement with competition growing;

and, maybe,

2) More jumpers have more lobbying power to open and maintain access to legal sites.


Honestly, I think that number 2 is a pipe dream. I doubt that we will ever have sufficient numbers/money/lobby to really play that card with land managers.



What are the disadvantages?

1) More traffic on illegal sites means more heat.
2) More traffic on legal sites means more access issues, and more likelihood they'll get shut down.
3) More publicity means more people participating with less and less preparation. When every kid with an X-box wants to BASE jump, a fair number of them are going to find a way to do so. This reduces the average skill level in the sport, increases the number of jumps, increases the traffic on objects, and increases the number of incidents, all of which lead to problems with site access (legal or not).
4) More publicity increases your chances of getting busted on any particular run-in with law enforcement. Gone are the days of "wow, that's pretty cool, and I don't even know if there's a law about that anyway," and here are the days of "this city has an ordinance forbidding aerial delivery."


Honestly, I wish we had less people than we do now, and that people getting into the sport were proceeding with more caution.

I want it to grow the way it did when I first started learning about it.

Mentors, and putting in dues. Tagging along to ground crew with no intent of jumping. That means more than once. Reading the fatality reports, and understanding them. Learning something about gear, and knowing when you don't know enough. Learning ethics at a Denny's late night after GCing. Respecting those that were jumping the local objects before you.

For the most part, BASE training courses are becoming the death of this sport.

In short, no.

tom - i really respect you but i think you are narrow minded with this post. things that don't grow, die. pure and simple. check history if you don't believe me.

That's bullshit. We're not talking about plants here. More people statistically increases the prevalence of dumbshits - and dumbshits get dead or burn objects - and that's bad for the sport.

Having said that - BASE will grow. Just look at the BASE number graph. It's inevitable.

Things that grow out of control either kill themselves, or are killed by others, though.


What advantages do you see to current jumpers from increasing the number of jumpers in the sport, the number of jumps done per year, or the exposure of the sport in the eye of the general public?

With all due respect Tom,

When I saw you last weekend and someone asked you how your FJCs were going, your answer was, "Business is great!"

I'm glad that you are banking on teaching tons of people who pay to play. And manufacturer courses that last weekend taught 5 more students at TF, at $1200 a piece. When they get done with these courses with essentially non-local strangers, they are going to return and either tear things up as rogue loners, or have to fit into the local scene, after the fact.

I just don't understand why skydivers who want to learn to jump don't just keep asking until they can't be ignored anymore. Bring a camera, offer to drive, make your mom bake the locals cookies. But it just seems that more and more people are making a "living" off teaching anyone willing to pay, regardless of what the consequences are to the locals, local objects, or the future overpopulation of BASE in general.

If you want it bad enough, you can have it when you earn it. Otherwise, keep your money for a new vented canopy and grow with your locals. Learn from them before your BASEing, during, and continue with them. If everyone with $1200 and another $1000 for gear gets to jump and return home, we can only expect more fatalities and less open objects...

I agree with all of Tom's points. The growing pains within BASE exist because the sport is so easy to practice, making it very easy to get over your head. Most extreme sports require not only skill, but much talent in order to even get into harms way, but with BASE most anyone can put on a rig and step over the edge, letting the odds, and not skill, determine the outcome.

Still I see it pointless to be against growth of the sport, as that won't keep it from happening, and it may keep some future BASEer from enjoying it. And I might add deaths are a flimsy reason, it's not like humankind is in danger of extinction.

Yes, let BASE grow and become a viable way to commute to work...

Tom, I appreciate your reply to my post and I'd like to address a couple of points that you mention.

I completely and totally understand all of the disadvantages that you mentioned in your post. More jumpers = more heat. Easier it is to get into the sport, easier it is for people with shitty skill to start jumping off of things.

But on the other hand, look at it from another point of view. I can say that I started skydiving with BASE in mind from pre-jump 1. I wanted to BASE jump before I started skydiving. I've done ground crew and I've learned as much as I can about the gear by reading these forums and catching quick glimpses of friends' gear and whatnot. I've even seen a friend have a BASE malfunction and pound into the ground with some serious force.

I've always expressed a genuine interest and now that I'm racking up more skydives and getting closer to being able to jump (according to BASE FJC guidelines) it seems like noone really wants to give me the time of day.

While knowing that I can go travel to the Perrine and do a FJC and probably learn a whole lot and make some good supervised jumps, I believe that someone local who knows the ins and outs of the objects in the area, what the winds need to be like and the general stuff that needs to be known is important. If BASE jumpers don't want the sport to grow, how am I suppose to gain this valuable information?

I'm determined to get myself into this sport, regardless of what I have to do. I just think that BASE guys should take into account each individual person's goals and attitude and act accordingly.

no one said grow out of control as if that would EVER happen in BASE. but the crew in BASE is so secretive, skeptical of everyone, and more. this is really why i don't think most want it to grow, their ego's. if it becomes mainstream then all the BASE jumpers now don't feel special. we think we are so hardcore when there are people out there doing far more dangerous and profitable things. in fact this sport could be the alternative to people that can't afford skydiving but instead it is ruled as a secret society almost.

Two things:

1) I'm absolutely certain that's not what I said. In fact, I recall quite clearly saying "I'm teaching a lot, probably more than I want to." That's very different from your recollection, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I guess.

2) I don't really see how the number of students I'm teaching is relevant to my views about the growth of the sport, except perhaps to emphasize that even though I am able to teach many people, I am not pleased with the overall rapid growth rate.




That's an incredibly cheap shot, and a poor attempt to paint me as solely teaching for the money. My first jump courses cost about two thirds of the figure you quote ($850, on average), and I teach a significant number of students at no charge. When was the last time that you spent several hundred dollars of your own money creating and distributing course materials, then spent a week of your time teaching a group of students who you aren't charging?


The fact that I would prefer that the sport not grow, or at least grow slower, does not mean that I am not realistic about what is happening. Given the explosive rate of growth, I do as much as I can to help people enter the sport as safely as possible, with as much help and guidance as possible. Can you say the same?

Some BASE jumpers are selfish, they want their objects all to themselves. Others enjoy sharing the experience with people they think are ready.

I kept asking to go to a local object to GC, but wouldn't be allowed by the people I was asking until I had my own gear, took two FJCs, and made a few jumps at legal objects.

If you don't have a mentor (hard to find these days) to give you detailed instruction, a FJC is much better than the 15 minute brief you might get the night you do your first BASE jump.

You'll get much more respect from the locals after you get home and might actually get invited along and shown some objects when you get home, as long as you're not an asshole. Personally, I won't jump anything unless I have someone to show me the object and tell me about it.

And that, my friend, is the $64,000 statement. I can do a FJC from all of the gear manufacturers and a 15 minute briefing from every BASE jumper out there, but if I don't have the inside info from someone who's familiar with the object, what's the point?

I also agree with the statement made about 'feeling special'. When you don't BASE jump and people look up to you for it, you're special. When that's not the case anymore, the special feeling goes away. I think there are too many BASE jumpers out there that hate to see that special feeling go away..

Here's what I would suggest (and what I would do, if I get to your point and I'm in your situation):

Take the FJC. Or two. Come home, take some locals out for beer and tell them excitedly about what you just did and what you just learned. Ask for assistance with some local objects. And if they still give you the brush-off, move.

We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. No matter what we do, we can't win.

Given the Perrine is here to stay for the foreseeable future, I think we're better off with structured courses like the one Tom is providing, than not having courses at all.

Let's say there are ten people with a potential interest in BASE, but unable to find a mentor.

Taking the Perrine as a given, here's what happens if FJCs didn't exist:

Three of them have a desire but never jump.
Four of them will join friends to the Perrine and learn there.
Three of them will buy used BASE gear somehow and go at it alone.

With courses, you'll get this:

Two of them have a desire but will never jump.
Two will join friends at the Perrine and learn there.
One will go at it alone.
Five will do a course at the Perrine.

So even though the net result of doing FJCs is a more rapid growth of the sport (two instead of three people didn't jump), I also think that the overall result is better for the sport; we now have five people with at least somewhat of an understanding and only one going at it alone, compared to the three who would go at it alone otherwise.

Again, we can't win, no matter what we do. It's all about minimizing damage.

As for the ego part that Chachi brought up. I do think there is some truth in that. We do like to think of ourselves as particpating in an elite sport. I know I do...

Personally, I like to see two things in prospective jumpers:

1. A desire to put as much or more effort into their preparation as I did and do.

2. A compatibility on a social and personality level.

Take the cross-section of those two characteristics, and the number of people that I would be happy about entering the sport shrinks rapidly.

My two cents...

If you are experienced, and willing to show a returning FJC student your local objects when they get back, I assume you already decided that you are compatible with them, and decided that they have the right mindset in your opinion.

If that is the case, why are you not taking them to a local object and teaching them yourself?

I just got back from Twin, with someone I've been mentoring for the last year. There were 5 students in one FJC class, not Tom's, and they got 3 jumps from the course. Due to winds, one PCA, and two handhelds.

The question I have is: Do these jumpers already have established contacts and commitments from jumpers back home, who will look over them for the next ~20 jumps, and show them the local objects? Or are they going to go home $850-1200 poorer, to a scene where they haven't talked to a single local BASE jumper, with knowledge only of slider-down, 1-2sec, 42"pc, span jumping, into a huge landing area?

I agree that sometimes you can't win. I don't want to, can't, and won't take every skydiver in town that wants to get into BASE to the Perrine, and watch over them for their first ~20 jumps. I choose to jump with a very small group, and you won't get invites to our cool loads just because you want to. I will help everyone I can as much as I can, at the same time, but I have no answer for this problem that won't go away.

I understand that if someone is refused teaching, they might just go off in the dark and figure it out themselves. Not good for anyone. But to flood the BASE world with FJC courses, somehow cheapens the demonstration of desire and determination to get into BASE.

Guess those jumpers are always welcome at the Perrine...

Corey

You live in an area with very limited objects and most of them are very hot.

You will find it very hard to get the locals to take you out, there are not many good sites for beginers.

Just because u have a certain number of jumps it doesn't mean you are ready for base.

Base is no picnic, people see the videos and think it is a piece of cake.
But truth be known its dangerous and people die.
The people you jump with have to trust you, and you have to trust them, because when things go wrong, they are going to be the people who will save your life.

Even if you take a fjc, you prob not going to get anyone to take you out.
It's just this area is very fragile right now.

I know people have mentioned michelle jumping, but she a different case. She spent 18 months ground crewing, found a mentor and i have nothing to do with her jumping. she has great knowledge of the sport, and its ethics.

Don't take this personally its just how it is right now.

Gary

we dont want it to grow, but if someone pays us 1000 $ for a FJC, we will teach anyone.

Hey Calvin, you can charge more, because some new jumpers will pay more to get into BASE quick and with minimal research and effort...

I could argue points about Michelle but it's not my business nor do I really care about arguing what she does or doesn't do. I'm happy that she is jumping. It seems to make her really happy and I'm happy for her. At least she'll actually talk to me about it Just kidding, mate.

No hard feelings dude. I know the deal about the area and I totally respect that. But being involved with BASE and getting my feet wet doesn't necessarily have to involve me actually jumping.

Are you kidding me??? You want to get into BASE?

Why would you want to do something so asinine as that when you can LEVITATE??????

I would much rather be able to defy gravity than to be it's slave!

Well shit since I can levitate I guess there's no risk in me going in, right? More reason to jump!!

There is no doubt that there is much room for improvement in all FJC's. I don't think anyone has a perfect program, and there is definitely healthy debate about what belongs in the curriculum and what doesn't, and how much information a student can absorb and retain.

That said, in my last two courses, the students have made between 15 and 20 jumps. Here are some of the jumps that I include in my course:

PCA
Handheld
Stowed
Slider up
Static line (demonstration of 3 different methods, practice of at least one)

There's also, of course, a fairly significant amount of theoretical material (object evaluation, deep brake setting, wind effects, ethics, etc), and I also try very hard to connect my students to jumpers who are local to them for when they return home.

While I cannot guarantee that I can find good guidance for everyone when they return home, I can say that I do my best to help with that, and that I've had significant success helping my students get involved with local crews who were unwilling to guide them before their FJC. I'm also proud to say that I've convinced several prospective students to reconsider enrolling in an FJC, and helped them meet local jumpers who could guide their skydiving progressions to better prepare them for BASE before they started.

The only person I've jumped with who went through Tom's course was one of the most heads up and knowledgeable inexperienced jumpers I've met. I think he only had like 20 or 30 jumps when he hooked up with us, all from Perrine. This could very well be more a result of the person than the course though.

And who I'm talking about, don't get a big head cause you're still not allowed to fuck up and die - it's against the rules.

I used to think it was about egos as well. and I think some of it is. but mostly it's (in my opinion) about protecting the limited # of objects from people who have no respect for them, or for the other people that are jumping them.all they can think is "I'm gonne get mine".
a few bad experiences and pretty soon you don't want to show people around any more....

Bingo. It rests on the locals. if you have some dumbass show up with his hair on fire and a titty dancer on his arm he wants to impress...scare him away and steal his woman.

Same goes for the chicka out to smoke pole for a PCA. (let her...just bail out her window when she's asleep...and before you ever PCA her)

Weed out those who have put in the skydives, pay attention, and ask lucid questions. They will be less likely to screw the community.

Now, about the titty dancer...

Some may be, but I bet the majority want only to protect what they already have...

Explain?

that is the attitude that has lead to several entries on "The List." (RIP)

goals? I really do NOT care what your goals are. they are meaningless. a complete suicidal maniac might have a GOAL to BASE jump, so? I should respect that?

attitude? now that MAY deserve respect. if you insist on jumping no matter what, that is your attitude. being ignored might be how the locals "act accordingly."

I stood 100 yards from a fatality. I've carried broken bodies out. I have comforted those left behind. and I have seen some ugly stuff.

it is NOT a world in which to rush.
it is NOT a world to enter by force.

and NO I do not see a compelling reason to grow. sure, we will add more jumpers. we will also lose jumpers (hopefully via retirement )

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why growth is good. no one has offered any arguments or disagreements with Tom's comments. I even directly asked SLAMBO to offer a reason in an earlier thread. no one has stepped forward with anything but he rosiest of forecasts, as if BASE accidents never occurred. <sigh>

oh, and the sport of fencing is NOT booming, but it still endures. why fret about BASE "dying?"

Aaaand that one's out of the park. Nice.

No, it's not. It just takes a hell of alot more time cutivating a relationship with one than people are willing to invest these days.

what doesnt belong in a curriculum? i would think that everything belongs. I would say that everything possible to describe or teach should be taught.

Because the Perrine bridge (legal, huge landing area, water) does have some advantages that do get people up to speed quicker. I have a decent first-time freefall slider down bridge within a four hour radius, but even there we'll be able to crank out two jumps a day at the most. At the Perrine I can crank four jumps a day over a three day weekend and get somebody up to speed quicker.

Say all you want about patience and so forth, but at the end of the day there are some advantages to compressing the learning of basic skills in a short period of time.

More importantly, to me, is the level of commitment it shows if somebody is willing to do an FJC. And I'm not even talking about the Perrine advantages listed above or getting additional teaching from somebody other than your mentor will be at home. I'm talking about having to travel a number of miles, pay some money, and demonstrate that you're taking this seriously. Maybe that is shallow, but somebody that is willing to admit to me that FJC plus traditional mentoring is more valuable than traditional mentoring alone, that's worth something to me.

I remember a similar thread from early 2005. It was actually about “My biggest teaching mistake”.

I will quote Tom:

“1) Taking on a student who wasn't ready, because I was afraid they'd go chuck themself off something if I didn't step in. I think, in retrospect, I ought to have made them wait, and brought them in to ground crew, or whatever, in the meantime, which also would have given me some latitude to get them practicing the right skills while skydiving.

2) Not allowing enough time for a FJC. I'm starting to wonder if they don't need to be a week long, all the time.

3) Not laying out a good enough progression for what people ought to do after they've finished their initial FJC.”

My reply then:

“Hi Tom,

I do agree but like to add a personal opinion and some thoughts if you don't mind.

Personally I have one student per year ... sometimes longer. The concept of FJC is, in my personal opinion, a concept not actually in the best interest of the student.

It is a concept that enables "mass production" and with mass production you have to make a standard course that does not allow to many custom changes to be cost effective. The goal with mass production is usually to make money from it ... not to share a lifestyle or mentor someone in to a very high risk activity.

I am not against FJC's ... as I see it FJC's are a symptom, now days there are so many out there that are looking to get in so the only way to accommodate that demand are mass production ... the only thing I sometimes wonder about are ... that demand, did we create it with making BASE easy to get in to like FJC's ... or is FJC's just the logical answer to the increase of people that like to become basejumpers.

... and if we created that demand ... did we create a monster?

PerFlare
www.swedishbaseteam.se”

- - - - -

My reply to your question. No.

I do think we created a monster and that monster is now out of control. We are growing fast and allot of times when I see newbie’s they are acting like “skydiver teens” … some of them actually have the skill and most of them have far more talent then I ever have, but they do not realize the true consequence of what we actually are doing. That realization develops over time.

But then again what do I know about anything, one thing I do know is that there are one FJC that I would like to attend, because I believe I would learn allot of things attending it, it is the week long course that Tom A is running.

PerFlare
www.swedishbaseteam.se

Nice post!

I think that's pretty unfair to Tom, and a mischaracterization of what's going on. Because the money is not his primary motivation, he can be much more selective as to who he takes on, and make sure that when the novice is released back into his natural habitat he's really prepared for it. That's being responsible.

ok i agree, it was just an inconsiderate one liner.

there is a lot of good fjcs out there, and while i disagree with them on some levels, they are vital for other reasons.

fjc's make the sport look like anyone can do it. its like skydiving again, pay the money, and you get an A liscense. scary similar.

anyone can get into skydiving, no matter who they are. if they have money and are slightly motivated, they can skydive.

Yeah, but as I keep getting told, "skydiving is easy". It's so commercialized that you can default on thinking at every stage. In BASE, it's simply not possible to pay someone money to pack for you, to take care of your equipment, to rent you gear for every jump, to hold your hand every time. The barrier to entry is much higher, and not everyone is going to pass that barrier. It's not just a matter of having the time and money, but of having the brains. [That's certainly one of the draws for me. It's a huge challenge that I know most people can't meet.]

skydiving isnt just easy, its close to idiotproof. (close)

and i agree that base is very different in almost all aspects, but the simple fast that FJCs exist, make it feel like i described, to some younger skydivers out there as well as the general public.

sometimes at the dropzone, watching people ask stuff like (after they are told what tracking is) "if i am tracking really hard after my reserve fails, cant i just tuck and roll when i get close to the ground?"

and im not kidding about that. this person has broken their back twice now on landing, 100some jumps and 2 stand up landings. perfectly healthy person as well.

i love these comments. how exactly is skydiving easy? which discipline are you world champion level in?

flailing around in the air is easy, just like jumping at TF. doing the best of either world is a challenge that takes a lifetime to master.

open your mind BASE is not as hard as you think to walk into and be competent at. keeping yourself and your attitude in check is what is the hard part.

who are you to think everyone should put a specific amount of energy into anything and why do you think you should have to get along with someone or they shouldn't enter BASE. you try to push your own values, moral, and ethics onto people to much.

everyone does things for their own reasons and has to accept the outcome. stop thinking there is only one way to do BASE, your way.

There you go, a perfect reason supporting FJC's.

I have seen several people do a FJC and decide it's not for them. Good decision! Without that experience they may have ended up in trouble before they had that realization.

While I was one of the skydivers who thought BASE was crazy until I was challenged about my understanding of the sport, I meet people all the time, skydivers and non-skydivers, that can't wait to try it with absolutely no knowledge other than it looks like a cool thing to do. (Most of the time it is.) These are the people a FJC would help the most. It would allow them to experience all it takes to participate.

I took Tom's course, when it was free, and he did an excellent job of exposing the students to the work necessary. The first day we walked from the park to the landing area and climbed out. If that doesn't have you realize this isn't skydiving... Next we packed for hours. Having taken a packing course prior to arriving in Twin, I wasn't too pleased when Tom told me to open it up and pack it for a third time, but that's part of the learning. Climbing up and jumping out of that tree 8-10 times was actually scarier than jumping off the bridge the first time, and that's another reason he includes that.

Jumping off the bridge after all that was kind of a let down. My brother called me right after I landed and asked how it was. My response was it wasn't as exhilirating as I thought it would be.

Now take a step back and let's look at a guy who shows up to TF's with his friends for a first jump. His friends are generally more interested in their jumps than his and also tend to think of the bridge as a safe, easy object. They prepare him as much as they think is necessary. This includes helping him through his first pack job and having him practice his exit form several times. They tell him they will PCA him which means all he has to do is concentrate on his form. On the walk out they show him the wind indicator and the preferred landing area. They also point out the ditch and boulder field he should stay away from. He climbs over the rail, a pretty fear filled event by itself, and is now standing 485' above a hard surface, shitting his pants. Knees shaking he counts, 3-2-1-CYA. As he leaves the object head-low he tries to remember WTF he was supposed to do. The canopy slams open and he now has 20-25 seconds to get this big ass canopy to where he intended to land. HELL YES he's juiced when he gets to the ground!

I realize not everyone brings their friend up and puts them through that ordeal, but it does happen. Pretty hardcore experience and that's off a safe, easy bridge. It's been done off not so easy object also...

I think a descent FJC gives the student the most benefit and exposure. The risks are decreased as much as possible and the instructor monitors the students progress and makes informed decisions as to the students ability to progress.

Catch and Release?? I'm sure that's good for business...

Well, can you?

Now to be serious. Why are BASE jumpers against any authority telling them what they can and can't do but not against telling others what they can and can't do? If someone told you that you could not BASE jump before you started would have BASE jumped anyways? (From other questions I have asked I believe most BASE jumpers will answer yes.)

In the context you mean it, yes, it is. The act of skydiving is simple. Students prove that to me all the time. Becoming proficient and highly skilled takes a lot of effort.

i think he means jumpers who want him to mentor them. and in that case he has every right to decide who he wants to let in the door and who to shut out. I think MyTwoCents has more sense than to just slam the door on anyone, but more politely say, no thanks, not right now.

Cornishe packed me up for 2 shots of Patron, a taco, and some teabag...

Total bargain.

Well said, thanks for those posts. Those are important points that are some of the first to be forgotten these days, from my firsthand experience.

note the (close)

did i say i was or specify anything about world record ass grabbing(RW) championship? any CRW titles i mentioned?

skydiveing, as difined, is the act of jumping out of an airplane and living.

and ude, i SUCK at skydiving. (i have tunnel time, and i still havent graduated to anything but assisted back flying, its amazing how much i suck at falling straight down) but im still alive. and so is just about everyone else who has done it.

i NEVER said base was harder. i just am saying that it is easier to die doing.

I think my attitude is in check. is yours?

dudes,

I have seen kids BASE jump and stand up their landings with zero flying, skydiving, paragliding, anything experience. i would say that a single handheld base jump at potato is safer than skydiving. SINGLE

and i have seen 2000 jump masters frap in and spend a year in the hospital on a skydive.

its all relative.

IM NOT SAYING THAT ANYONE CAN GO AND BUILD A 25 WAY HEAD DOWN STAR!
im saying that anyone can go take AFF level one and live.

I couldn't agree more and I am far from being one of those "experienced BASE jumpers". IMHO there are far too many people who rushed into BASE within the last few years. The people with little canopy control experience and poor gear knowledge should be told to spend more time at the DZs and rigging lofts and less time in BASE. Plus, while we know BASE is an order or magnitude more dangerous than skydiving, we shouldn't trivialize skydiving (as some do here ... not referring to Tom). Since when was any form of aviation ever considered safe?

Finally, BASE jumping means different things to different people. One size does not fit all.

I said no such thing. I merely stated my own personal preference, and in the context of this conversation about mentorship I don't think the above two requirements are necessarily out of line. Are they?


Again, I don't see where I do such a thing. But I'm open to having them pointed out to me.

I have never pushed my values, morals and ethics on to you if I recall. I merely made the decision to not jump with you. Although I admit that the way I chose to communicate that to you (i.e., behind your back) was not the most mature I could have chosen, I have never pushed my style of jumping onto you, and have also said that I'll have a beer with you any day of the week.

Perhaps unrelated to the topic at hand, but you must admit that I have, on multiple occasions, commended you on your skydiving skills. You are, by all measures, a better skydiver than I am.

You may also be a better BASE jumper. I won't judge that, and it doesn't matter to me either way. You do, however, jump in a different fashion than I do. And that's fine.


One more time, I don't think I've ever set there is only one way. I think some ways are better than others, but I've never forced anybody to take my way.

One may bring up the BASE WIKI, but I'm just throwing the information out there, in a take-it-or-leave-it fashion. People are welcome to ignore it, or interpret it in their own way. I don't see how my contribution to the wealth of information out there should be construed as something negative (except for the total secrecy argument, but surely you can't align yourself with that based on your comment above).

I somehow feel this post has gone more personal than is ideal, and I apologize for that. However, your post made particular statements about my dealings with other people in the sport that I don't think I'm guilty off. There are multiple jumpers in my local scene who practice the sport in ways that I don't. That's fine, they can do their thing, I can do mine.

well said?
really?

the topic was about mentoring new jumpers. the job of a mentor is to influence their charge, to make sure a novice grows and develops into a safe jumper. that typically means getting the newbie to adopt the morals, values, and ethics you endorse.

if the potential new jumper has an attitude that conflicts with the potential mentor, the mentor should not accept the newbie as an "apprentice."

the comments start making sense if you refer to them out of context. by that I mean BASE in general. as discussed previously, different jumpers have different styles. we need to tolerate those as much as possible. (that does NOT mean accepting ALL behavior.)

i.e.
yes, as a group we should remain inclusive.
no, as individuals we should choose to limit with whom we jump. thus a novice who expects a local to mentor him must sell the idea to the local. novices who EXPECT to be mentored think too highly of themselves.

WHAT!? They didn't know how to attach the risers to the bumper of their car and drive down the road? idiots...

i know thats what i do. only my squares though, the rounds drag to much and get muddy.

you can tie off the risers of the rounds on the tail of your plane. use a grass strip, NO MUD!

yes.

numbers=legitamacy
legitamcy=legality
legality=no more "boo hoo my sport is changing"

this sport belongs to no one.

my plane was to small, it slowed it down to much. we used a drouge instead. worked great verticle dive 120mph.

You mean a weeks vacation and a credit card?

Used to be making friends, becoming a trusted individual, months of ground crewing, finding and having gear modified, and learning how to rig it.

Definate improvement.

Falling out of a plane is easy. Becoming a skydiver is not.

Falling of a bridge is easy. Becoming a BASE jumper is not.

Looks like the "tourists" have forund a new thrill.

Come on, that's not fair. You know the latter is obviously better. But an FJC is still better than taking them to your local span twice and them getting impatient and starting to huck the local cliff.

In my opinion, credit-card or not.