Basejumper.com - archive

Things were so much better years ago. Look halfway down the page on the following link.

http://laist.com/

Thanks be to all the glory hounds . . .

NickD
BASE 194

And gear manufacturers and places that allow it legally and................... guys who tell really good stories about the good'ol days!?? And..............

It's not going away, it is only going to get worse so why worry about it?!?

Even in my lonely part of the world there has been a BIG increase in jumpers, a huge increase in people wanting to get into it and the years of experience in related sports dropping rapidly amongst these people compared to even 6 years ago.

interestingly, the article mentioned LA adrenalin junkies. so are the glory hounds only in LA?

yes, the glory hounds contributed to our notoriety (and possibly a less than constructive image...). others contributed as well. every person that has fought to gain legal access has made people and the authorities aware of our activities. any video creates a very visceral reaction, postively or negatively.

this forum also serves to publicize our activities.

that said, I'm not convinced any of it is really helping keep sites open... legal or not. (fortunately, cost conscience bean counters will probably keep the best security away from some sites.)

It is Indian land not NPS lets go talk and see the price for a mass permit. It would make a great place for a heli boogy. I am sure both jumpers and tourists would come and the owners could make a tidy profit.

Greeny

mabe our cover wouldn't be blown if you didn't point at it

That bridge has been the subject of numerous threads here on DZ.com...makes you wonder if someone didn't get the idea for that article's title from browsing around here.

Define that Nick would you.

In response to the PMs, sheesh, you guys - yes I know times are changing as I've been watching them change longer than most of you.

My point was I recall when there were no references to "BASE jumping" at all outside the sport itself. Then slowly wuffo writers started using it as a frame of reference as in, "It's not as crazy as BASE jumping, but [enter some new sport here] is, blah, blah, blah."

And nowadays BASE is everywhere. If you just started within the last ten years you'll miss the point of how "weird" that seems to those around for a while longer.

NickD
BASE 194

Duude, get over it and stop tellin us over and over again how much better it was in the good'ol golden days. Things are changing, and not only in Base. That's the way of everything. I'm a skier and fuck yeah, there's about 10 times more people skiing off-piste now then there have been 10-20 years ago and as a result it's getting harder and harder to get freshies. Where you could find untouched pow weeks after a snowfall you now have a couple of hours before it's all gone. It's exactly the same thing: it started with films, photos, extreme-skiing-competitions and media and industry using the extreeeme image to sell their products. And since it's called "freeriding" every kid has a pair of fat skis and wants to go big. And I can't blame them - it's a lot of fun, so wtf? In some places areas have been closed for skiers due to the increased numbers of people skiing there and the impact that has on nature - that's pretty much the same thing like a burned object. Still, I never heard anybody blame the guys making those movies or going for the comps for ruining the pow for the old guys. In some ways it might suck, but on the other hand it's cool as a whole industry has evolved out of that movement and the gear we have nowadays is 10 times better than the stuff we had before. It's not our mountains anyhow, so how could we expect to have them for ourselfs only?

How many of those new kids have died because they didn't have the right skis, or because no one taught them how to avoid avalanches?

Five?

I'm not sure what your point is. Bang for buck we could save a lot more lives through improved avalanche awareness than we ever could in BASE. But I would ask, who cares?

That BASE is not skiing. The risks involved are different, and are also of different orders of magnitude.

So what? The issue here is not the risk. It's the amount of pub BASE is getting. Back in the good old days it was much more low profile, and now not so much. That's not a function of risk level, so I'm with MyTwoCents--I don't get your point.

But what I can't derive from your message is in what direction you think the risks and consequences go. I'll easily agree that BASE is on an individual level more dangerous than skiing. However, overall a lot more lives have been lost because of the MTV-ification of extreme skiing than because of the YouTube-ification of BASE jumping.

I'm not saying I agree with Obi (that's a tangent), but I wonder if your point is that since skiing is less dangerous than BASE, it's less of a problem for skiing to be popularized than it is for BASE.

I would argue differently. Even when popularized, BASE continues to have a scare that runs against all intuition. Most people have no desire to jump off things. Back country skiing on the other hand seems too easy and too innocent. It's sunny and fun. Until you see that slab of snow slide away underneath your feet, and you look over your shoulder at a gigantic white cloud that is chasing you.

cloud is not really chassing you, not any more than a human takes a step sideways to smash and ant.

To me, Nicks post wasn't about risks and proper training of new jumpers. It was the n-th complaint about the loss of the good'ol days and the fact that Base is getting more publicity now than it got 20 years ago. I'm just getting tired of that.
I totally agree that it's pretty stupid to illegally jump an object and then make a big thing out of it cause you will of course ruin it. But if you do some cool jumps off mountains where noone cares, I don't think it's oh so bad to speak about it. How should our sport evolve if everybody would hide in their bushes?

I'm very old-school and more than careful when it comes to new jumpers, but that is not the subject of this thread.

Isn't that the same issue?

Lots of publicity wouldn't matter so much if there was no risk involved in the activity.

This goes back to the same old argument. Are we trying to preserve "our" sites, or are we trying to keep people from getting hurt or killed (by trying things they aren't properly prepared for)? Perhaps both, but which do you think is more important?

IMHO, site preservation is far more important. Thanks to the hard work of you all, anyone now entering the sport is doing so eyes open and fully aware of the risks. I don't think there's much more you can do there on that front without formal legislation.

However, excessive injury/death can jeopardize site access: as previously discussed, an incident highlighted in the media can cause owners of illegal sites to highten their security, and can increase regulation of so-far legal sites. So yes, they are somewhat the same issue.

I get the point "My Two Cents" is trying to make...think of this guys:
More little kids die drowning in pools than are killed with guns...
BUT more citizens get really excited about wanting to control guns.

the greenmachine makes a good point.

"While the idea of people getting injured or killed bothers me, the idea of hiding something so remarkable in an ill-conceived attempt to protect people from themselves bothers me even more."- Anms

18 fatalities this season since november..maybe not the right skis, but equipment and training..definately.

I wanted you to define glory hound so we all knew who to blame for this catastrophic demise of BASE but since you side-stepped the question then I'll pose examples for others.

Carl Boenish - footage of illegal jumps presented in screenings to entire dropzones for 'entertainment'. Target audience - skydivers and a broader general public.

Tom Sanders - Footage of illegal jumps off all objects purely for entertainment sake. Target audience, skydivers and extreme sports participants and a broader general public.

Nick Feteris and Glen Singlemann - BASE climb films. Footage and expose of BASE as part of a specific goal to jump the highest wall in the world. Target audience - anyone with a TV.

Anne H (as a representative to BR) - Discovery documentary where she assists Will Forshay in obtaining his BASE number (legally). Target audience - anyone with a TV.

Tom Aiello - Discovery documentary piece following Tom's rehabilitation after a near fatal low pull at the Perrine. Also features jumps from some illegal terminal walls. Target audience - anyone with a TV.

Thor Alex - Made it his mission on a single trip to jump the 3 highest profile buildings in NYC and then distributed his footage to media associations in an effort to 1/appease them? 2/finance his defence? 3/seek glory?

Shane McConkey, Felix Baumgartner, Mike V et al - High Anxiety films and numerous other Ski chronicles

Marta Empinotti - documentary appearance

Team behind XXX and all other motion picture BASE stunts.

Jumper X who posts his video on youtube or skydivingmovies.com

So the question is.....spot the gloryhounds. Some? All? None? What makes one a glory hound worthy of derision and what makes the other a spokesperson worthy of adulation.

I can't figure it out. Or is it just a case of

"if they're my old mates and i've met them and understand their motivations so i know they're not essentially bad people so they don't qualify............... but this new breed who i don't know personally, think I'll blame them!"

For the record, No i don't think all the examples above were gloryhounds, and no, I have never posted so much as 1sec of my hours of footage on any online site.

You're right; the sport started with glory hounds. Let the lemmings jump...

your sarcasm clouds your point...

Nick maintains a list. his list provides cautionary tales. it warns us about hazards detrimental to our health, and the sport. he is trying to contribute and help others. and face it, documenting a death a month has to drain the life out of someone. the repeated mistakes must create frustration in the one working hard to prevent just those accidents.

you created another list... is it designed to educate? warn jumpers by listing the mistakes of those who came before? be constructive?

your writing has a very divisive tone. harsh. bitter. angry. and I have no clue to it's source...

I think we share many views regarding distributing video to the public (please see my earlier post). some have done so to gain fame, some to gain wealth, and some to promote the sport. in the end, BASE has become far more public and higher profile. it also means any attention starved politician may use us as a cause to generate votes... (in the US, politicians love fearmongering about somehting.)

but I find I sympathize more with Nick right now...

You're very wrong actually, but with your head so far up your own arse you can't see it. I really don't give a hoot if you're sympathies lie with Osama Bin Laden my friend. You assume I need to get you on side to be validated. I really don't.

A posed a very straight forward question. What constitutes a glory hound and why do some people take the shit whilst others get a pat on the back.

And i have to say, you have a very wwwwwarped view if you think my reply is embittered and Nick's posts are not. And if my response is barbed with sarcasm, that's no more than I feel necessary.

More and more Nick's posts reflect such antagonism, poison and barely concealed contempt for some imaginary group of modern day jumpers he perceives to be the antithesis of what BASE is supposed to be about.

Anyone who questions this notion is then dismissed as being too inexperienced or too new to the sport to be worthy of consideration.

Your misplaced sympathy and unquesioning reverence for someone who does indeed carry out the very unenviable task of collating the Fatality list means you come out guns blazing at the first whiff of criticism.

The term 'shoot the messenger' springs to mind.

If you think I am alone in my growing repugnance and contempt for this barrage of prejudiced abuse coming from Nick, then you are so wrong it's just not funny.

And unlike Nick, I am not for a second turning this into an old school, new school battle. I have received many many many words of support from people who have held a BASE number a lot longer than he has. People who realise that the seeds of inevitable change were sown from the onset.

please clarify. do you mean the point where I basically agreed with you? that the current situation is the result of many beyond simply "glory hounds."


there is an example of the anger that distorts your posts. (plus you add a red herring to distract from your argument.)


actually, I made no such assumption. your only motivation I commented on was your anger and bitterness. please point out where I indicated so...

as for validation, you seem to be bragging about having the pack on your side, not I.


you also seem to be baiting Nick into an argument. his lack of response evoked a very visceral response from you.


I was one of the first in this thread to try and point out the error of Nick's views. again, we appear to be in agreement on content. I don't think responding to Nick's "antagonism" with further "antagonism" proves particularly helpful.

I also think you have distorted my comments as I have attempted to show...

This could go on and on, quoting each other against ourselves and picking holes. You jump on me for using sarcasm but find it ok to employ yourself (gloryhounds only from LA???). Remember that opening gambit or was that really a genuine question.

Me. I picked this argument with Nick cos i'm sick and tired of hearing these wishy washy broadsides about how WE (whoever WE is) fucked up the holy grail of BASE by selling out to the masses. It's boring. It's ignorant and it's just plain wrong.

If i come across as angry at Nick, that's because i am. Sorry,(queue sarcasm) i wasn't informed that anger was no longer a valid emotion. I must have missed the meeting when everyone decided that in order to raise an objection you have to voice it in an ever so calm psycho-analytical 'let's talk about your parents' type Oprah tone.(end sarcasm)

I guess i'm more Bill Hicks and you more Bill Cosby.

My anger is perfectly valid, as is Obi's. If that doesn't fit with your view of how arguing should be then that's tough.

Call me old fashioned but when someone insists on coming on here and effectively calling us lousy unethical twats who ass-raped the goose that laid the golden egg just because we are part of some broad (mid late 90's to present day) 'new generation' of MTV whoring jumper, then my reaction is usually to put the gloves on and hit back with some (what i consider to be) home truths.

Nick's a big boy. If he insists on generalising and crow barring us all into some stigmatised pigeon hole then i'm sure it can't come as surprise when individuals take exception and bite back.

Personally, I'm not going to sit back and read this poison without taking exception to it. But that's just me....angry and bitter.

Perhaps our cover was blown when Carl B. appeared on "That's Incredible" in the early 1980's? Or when all the big names in BASE jumping appeared on "Donahue" in the mid-90's? I still have the Donahue tape in my VHS collection.....

Most of us have shot video, aired video, or done interviews for TV. BASE jumping.....it is what it is. Time changes all things and time will continue to change our sport.

It's true that BASE jumping exposure on TV has increased. But we are also opening new sites, gaining more legal access, and the public is slowly accepting us because of it. BASE jumping today is what skateboarding or BMX was in the 70's. But I don't think BASE jumping is worse off today than it was 25 years ago.

I guess it is because it had been considered an intimate, clandestine, and secretive experience years ago. It feels strange and a little uncomfortable seeing it now in primetime Honda tv commercials with a jumper wearing a business suit.

Is there any reaction to that from the general skiing world?

Ease down. You can make your points without resorting to insulting people.

Probably none...because 18 deaths out of millions of skiers is less than the number of people who died driving on icy roads traveling to and from a day of skiing.

 
It's interesting that the skiing analogy keeps comeing up. It is in fact perfect. A few years back there was an artical in... Outside Magazine. I don't know if you remember it but it was following the fatality in Ouray, CO. at the ice park. I'll spare the detailes but there was threat of a big law suit. Just the threat was enough to ripple through the insurance companies causeing rate hikes that shut down many out door busnesses. The article was about the history of liability in this country. In point of fact all of this shit started with skiing. A guy got paralised and won a law suit setting a presadent for liability law that has fucked us all. There's more. The ski resorts did not retreat and cower. They were able to get a law passed limeting the liability of a resort. They did this by standing togather not by hideing in the shadows and bickering.

Lee

I think that what I object to on a visceral level is the people who's primary motivations are either attention seeking or financial gain.

The thing that really gets me, though, is when people, especially those motivated primarily by attention seeking or financial gain, know that they are hurting others, and openly declare that they don't care. Even worse is when people do things just because they know it hurts other people.

Here are some examples:

People who will throw anyone off an object for a certain amount of money. This, frankly, turns my stomach. No screening, no thought for student safety, no warnings of the danger. It's not so bad when someone throws their friend, who's general temperment and athletic abilities they are familiar with, off. But when you're willing to take all comers off the street for 50 bucks? This is the guy who says "hey, I don't care, it was a good payday for me."

People who actively downplay the risks involved, especially in an attempt to recruit their friends into BASE jumping, either (a) to score social points, or (b) for the financial reasons given above. These are the guys who say "it's so easy a bag of dogfood could do it" or "it's just as safe as doing a tandem skydive" or "there's no way you could possibly get hurt."

People who actively publicize sites just because they know other jumpers don't want them to (because it can hurt the site's access). These are the guys who post directions to sites on the internet.

People who play up their own skills, experience, etc, regularly in conversation or publications. Usually, this feeds back into the financial gain motivations (although sometimes it's purely attention seeking). These are the guys who give interviews in which they tell the press that they are called "the king of extreme skydiving" or the ones who buy advertisements in magazines with pictures of themselves and the caption "the world's greatest BASE jumper."


Yes, those are all people I've talked to, and they're all people who I've known for some time, and even jumped with, and everything in quotes is something I've either read or heard someone say (in all seriousness) in spoken conversation.



Remember that I'm talking about peoples primary motivations here. Everyone wants to make a couple dollars for their time, and likes people to know their name. But when those desires take over and become the main reason for your participation in BASE jumping, it's time to walk away and find some other venue where real financial rewards, or real fame, are more readily available. Trying to make your millions, or become a regular on television, by BASE jumping is likely to leave you frustrated, but regardless I don't think that people who are primarily motivated by fame and fortune are a good face for us to show to the world, and I prefer that they not be the spokesmen for BASE.

It's hard to qualify everything I say, or said another way, over explain everything, as it makes for bad writing, and I hate that. But I'll try.

Ian (Sabre210) asks, what is a glory hound? And fair enough.

First though, I'll take exception to his saying I'm all about, "it was better in the old days." Do I pine for times passed? Yes. Do I recall a time we were more tight knit? Yes. Do I recall when BASE was more about experiment, invention and discovery rather than just getting educated? Yes. Is BASE light years ahead of where it was, in terms of safety and technique, since I started? Yes.

I'll also forgive you using the insinuation that my being around longer means I don't understand certain things. That's the classic young/old argument and I know you can't help feeling that way. I did the same when I was younger and now regret it, and someday you'll do the same.

My definition of glory hound started before there was the phrase glory hound. And over the years it has changed, and it now means different things to me depending on context. But you asked who gets a pass, and who doesn't and again that is a fair question.

My baseline definition of glory hound is this – someone who uses the sport to further their own goals. I wish I could leave it at that, I mean, I wish everyone could understand what that means, but I know some people won't so here goes.

The early guys, like Carl, et el, do get a pass. They didn't know they had a tiger by the tail. They had no way to see into the future, and especially in Carl's case, yes he made films, that's what he did, and in his case the camera came before the jump. If not for the camera he would never have done the El Cap loads in the first place. In those days nobody was doing "urban" jumps and no one had any reason to hide the deed, or expect fixed object jumping wouldn't be totally accepted as just another cool thing human beings were capable of doing.

Now let's balance Carl's transgressions with what he gave back to the sport. Besides naming the sport, he gave us the first BASE "magazine" in order to spread the word on safety. He gave us the BASE award. And he also gave us an underlying feeling that BASE was special in a Zen sort of way, that admittedly, most of us didn’t understand at the time. Carl set the tone for the following decade of jumping.

I'll put Tommy Sanders almost in the same category as Carl. I've known Tommy since he first started shooting static line first jump photos. He was also a camera man before he got involved with BASE. It was his job. And he always portrayed BASE in a good light with a eye toward its history and a peak into its future. If you look at both Carl's and Tommy's work it can said, and this is important when defining a glory hound, it wasn't about them, it was about the sport.

The gear manufacturers also get a pass. Marta, Anne, etc, and the rest are (or were) promoting their gear businesses and they also put way more back into the sport than they took away. And don’t think they are getting rich either. They are all struggling to this day. And if someone like Todd Shoebotham can get a decent check from Hollywood he more than deserves it. (Are you starting to see where this is going?)

Here's how you can tell a glory hound in five seconds. They use the "I" word a lot. As in I made this jump, I made that jump, I was first, I was fastest, I went furthest, and so on. When you listen to interviews with some of these guys you think they invented the whole damn sport. It's almost like in desperation some of these guys sat down with the idea, "Man, I gotta get famous, and I gotta do it fast, what's an available vehicle?" I know that's simplistic but it's how it seems to me. Look again at the list of jumpers you mentioned, I won’t as some are dead, but measure what they put into the pot versus what they took out of the pot. It doesn't pencil out . . .

Let's compare Tom A. and Felix B. - which one is the glory hound? That's a freaking no brainer. In the big scheme of things who is Felix helping except himself? Which one is "using" the sport? Which one is putting in more than he's taking out?

Even Dwain understood these things before he died. He came to me once and we talked for hours about the history of BASE. He wanted to know everything I knew about Carl and the old days and I'll never forget his saying to me, "You know what, Mate, we are standing on the shoulders of giants."

Sure, that may sound self serving, but its serving not one particular individual, but serving the sport itself. And in that case we could use a few more "positive" glory hounds. Where is today's Carl Boenish? Who's out there explaining the sport in positive terms? Why do we only get, "I only do it for the rush, I like to push myself, I like being on the edge." It's easy to say it's because that's what sells. But it's really because that's all these guys have for sale.

Now in my own case, have I put enough into the pot that I deserve a rant? I think so. I know how much tougher it is to get way with urban jumps today than it was twenty years ago. I know if the cop who nabs me has been exposed to some positive BASE information he might let me go. I know if his exposure to BASE is (just for instance) listening to someone like John A. or even worse John V., my goose is cooked. I know the judge I'm standing in front of isn't going to buy any of my jive concerning, the beauty, the human achievement, or any higher purpose, if he happened to have seen a video where bicycles go crashing down the sides of antenna towers.

A lot of people, jumpers included, are starting to lump BASE jumping into all the other new sports that have come along lately. But it doesn't, and never will, seem that way to me . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I don't disagree with any of the points you just made Nick, and i agree wholeheartedly about the overall ethos of keeping the BASE bank account in credit. You take a bit out, you put a bit back.

I just wish you wouldn't default to the assumption that all the ills we face in BASE today are of the 'new generation's making. They aren't. Every generation of jumper has had it's bad apples, it's rebels, it's black sheep. And like most bad habits, they're learned and passed down from a previous generation.

I have no issue whatsoever with anyone reminiscing fondly about their golden days in BASE. In fact i love hearing of others 'in days gone by' tales. But there is a monumental difference between fond nostalgia of times past and bitter contempt for times present.

Instead of containing your loathing for those who transgress, irrespective of era, you seem to now have welded all that is bad with all that is recent. That is a shame, because despite the problems, there are some incredible characters in BASE at the moment, some truly inspirational jumpers, some truly talented jumpers and yes, modern day Carl's and Dwains and Anne's. You're not seeing them obviously but I'd say that's cos you gave up looking.

What kind of reaction would you deem necessary from skiers? First of all, choosing the wrong pair of skis usually has nothing to do with it. Its not like a big 200 lb dude buying a fox 200 instead of a 310 for his first BASE jump and bouncing off the concrete. A skinnier ski, well he may sink a little more and get better face shots. Avalanche deaths happen to both experienced and non experienced backcountry skiers.
Most skiers dont even know what an avalanche beacon is, they are just tourist weekend warriors. You cant compare the BASE community and the ski world at all.
I did think your quote of "its so easy dogfood can do it" was hilarious though. Kind of like the Geico commercials, except more original.

I was asking for information. I didn't have any kind of direction I wanted the answer to go.

This thread makes me wonder if the older jumpers will automatically have a negative bias towards me because I'm still a teenager. My current experience is no, but I haven't met any real old school jumpers yet.

I just looked it up and I was born more than 6 years after the first BASE fatality. I never fully realized how much longer BASE has been around than I have.

it will all revolve around how you behave. your age does NOT matter.

I've seen plenty of older jumpers happy to listen to the advice of younger jumpers. I've seen big men listening to young women.

it's all about respect and understanding the other's concerns. it is NOT about age or time in sport.

well tj, i guess it all depends on the ratio between how much 'cute' you cram down their throats and how much 'cute' they can willingly stomach before grabbing your hook knife and gutting you like a baby elephant seal that waddled through the wrong crowd of starving sushi chefs

With so many experienced jumpers in my area, it kind of surprises me how many guys come to me for discussions/advice. I think it's an approachable thing. I'm a lot less intimidating than the big guys . I have some good friends that are long time jumpers, and I find they will have no problem listening to and respecting my ideas as long as I do the same for them.

...must resist comment about gender affecting people's interest in advice.

Shit, where is Abbie when I need him?

Ok I'll say it!
Damn Holly I'd come to you for advice too!

thats about as textbook as it gets for walking into something.

On the subject of the proliferation of newer jumpers
The increased number of jumpers over the past two decades have created market demands that have led to increased technology for which I am thankful - meaning that I no longer have to freestow my X-228+lines into my skydiving Pygmee container and hope for the best. I have also seen the limits of what I thought physically possible change and therefore setting new goals for myself that I would not have or could not have in the 80's. For this I am very thankful (and take my hat off to) to the new breed of jumpers.

On the subject of glory hounds and publicity
So much has been written on this topic and I have not much to add except that the argument usually goues new school scrrewing it up for old school (yaawn). I remember in the 80's it was pretty much common practice to sell urban BASE footage to the media and nobody gave a toss. And how many jumpers today are paying the price for the antics of the FLATBED 10???
To Nick
Respectfully, could you please tell me specifically how you have been personally affected by BASE being more publicised than before. What experiences have you had or what opportunities have you missed that you can attribute to it. I ask because I can't see how my jumping has been adversly affected by more attention to BASE. If anything - there's more understanding in the general public towards what I do and I'm less likely to be called "crazy". I ask because I feel you think this publicity is a bad thing but I'd like to know how you SPECIFICALLY have been affected.

Thanx.

g.

As Faber would say, Wery wery interesting.

All this talk about past jumping is making me want to jump now. In the present.

less bitching, more jumping.

I would also like to thank everyone involved that has contributed to this sport and making it what it is today. In the present.

Go ahead and open a beer, this is a long one . . .

As I've written before, I was at Elsinore when this happened and the Flatbed Ten, and I knew them all, were not BASE jumpers. They were skydivers and what they did must be looked at in that context. They were skydivers out for a lark, a once in a lifetime (to them) jump, and they went about it like you'd expect skydivers would do any extraordinary jump like a night, balloon, or water jump. It was all about the fun and light on anything else. And I'm not slamming them. They didn't violate any BASE ethics because there weren't any BASE ethnics at the time.

As for how publicity has personally effected me, well in more than a couple of instances in the last two years when turning a corner looking for a stairwell in a dark building under construction I've run into security guards and the old excuses that always worked before don't work so well anymore. "I'm homeless and looking for safe place to sleep," or, "I'm a photographer just trying to get some night shots of the city," just don’t fly. "Your one of those parashooters, aren't you," is what you're more likely to hear now.

After the last time that happened, we were driving away, kinda being quiet, but we died laughing, when a skydiver from Perris, who was ground crewing us, broke the silence with, "Man, you guys got YouTubed . . . "

That may not seem like too big a deal but I see it in terms of past experiences like the time a police officer actually helped Jakey and me hide out while every other cop in town was looking for my blue Jeep. That kind of thing is never going to happen again.

Another thing is we are confusing certain issues. I don't buy if we had kept BASE more on the down low it would have stifled progress. We BASE jumpers have always had a well oiled grapevine that way predates the internet. And when these internet boards first started in the 80s we certainly thought about the consequences of talking about BASE openly but really without thinking much about it we wrote to each other in a kind of code. "We did three DBs from Big Willy last night," wasn't giving much away and wouldn't be really understood by those outside the sport.

And in the very beginning the conversations were light in tone, and we were just having fun with a new toy. Good info was life and speeding up that info saved lives. In those days it was less, "Here's how to do this," and more, "Holy shit, don’t do this!" We were learning by making mistakes. And the internet could disseminate that info to more people faster than any other way.

Before the internet boards started most new BASE jumpers got their info directly from a BASE jumper they met at the DZ, over the phone, and from the various BASE magazines that existed and were circulated in-house. (The internet is was what killed the BASE magazines). Now here's where it gets complicated. When this board (The BASE Zone) started most of us were over on Mick's BASE Board. By that time the affliction, that infected most internet forums by that time, had us at each other's throats. In contrast, there was little anonymity in earlier days as the BASE community was too small to hide behind a fake name. And it kept things honest.

Sure, there was unrest in the BASE community prior to that. I remember how disgusted we all were when Mark kicked the living shit out of John Hoover. Up until that time we'd only had "bonehead" fights. One BASE jumper called another BASE jumper a fucking bonehead, then they'd meet at Bridge Day and one, or the other, got a bloody nose, later both would be dead drunk with their arms around each in brotherhood.

It was then we saw this place, and when I first read the thread description, "If you plan to try your hand at BASE jumping make sure you know what you're getting into. BASE jumping is extremely dangerous and you should clearly understand the risks before you think about it, whether you're a skydiver or not!" I thought cool - because the BASE Fatality List was passing through number 70 I thought maybe we can save a life or two. And that alone would be worth it. I actually first thought posts here would be more on the order of:

Hi,
I'm Bob, I live in Putzville, and I'm interested in BASE.

And the reply would be:

Hi Bob,
See Pete at DZ x-ray, he lives near Putzville.

I also thought this place being moderated would keep the BS to a minimum. It didn't exactly work out that way, and Tom deserves more than the gray hairs he's getting from trying. But the point I'm dancing around is some have said this board and our posting to it is a form of "glory hounding" that is also blowing our cover. And that's right. But maybe not for the same reasons you might think.

There are tens of thousands of forums on the internet. And I believe we tend to think we are so "special" that everybody else is paying attention to what's written here. Don’t kid yourself. In a larger sense no one is paying attention to this. While there maybe the odd "Tool" who comes here for Intel on what we are doing, so what, he already knows what we are doing. But the average web surfer doesn't have The BASE Zone on his Favorites List. But at the same time millions of people check in to see what's going on with You Tube. So blowing our cover there in nothing like just talking about BASE here.

You can see the impact this board has right on this board. How many times have you seen threads up-board asking what people read here and how many skydivers say they never read the BASE Zone? There's more than a few of those. So I'm saying the good this board does is it gives those willing to delve deep enough a good idea of what's going on, who to go see, and how to go about it. And at the same time, despite our trying to do otherwise, we probably sound like blathering idiots and turn people off. Fine, not the most elegant way to do it, but I'll call that another limb, or possibly, even a life saved . . .

I also hear some saying, "Well, this is the internet and it's not real." But no, this is not "virtual reality." This is not a video game or simulation. It may seem like that sometimes and only because I don’t know anymore who I'm talking with. It used to be I knew I was writing to and reading posts from Mike Allen, Andy West, Bill Grim, or Rick Payne, etc. It was "real reality" and we talked to each other like we would face to face. But now I tend to think of all of you as one. Because so many use fake names I run into BASE jumpers in the field who say, "Nick, why are you busting my balls on the board?" And my answer is it's because, "You asshole, I didn't know it was you."

Seriously, I can't tell the Miltons, from the Slambos, from the Sabre210s, so I (and it's my bad) tend to lump you all together as the collective YOU. One thing we could fix, and in these days of legal BASE, it wouldn't be that big of a deal - is post under our real names. What are we afraid of? I've been doing it for over twenty years and they haven't come for me yet. (Yes, I know there would be exceptions to that, but I also know most use the privilege to stir the pot and nothing else.) I think if we did post under our real names we would self moderate a bit what we said to each other. But I also know I'm pissing in the wind with that idea.

My active BASE career is in its waning days. My judgment and reflexes aren't what they were even five years ago and I find myself walking way from more jumps than I'm making. I'm not a wingsuiter, an aerialist, or a gear guru. The only thing I can bring to the table anymore is a helping hand and some perspective because I've been around so long. If that's not useful to the majority of you guys just say so outright and sooner or later I’ll bail out altogether.

But meanwhile this place is very "real" to me. People I connect with here come to my house; they eat my food, drink my beer, and ogle my girlfriend. We even jump together sometimes. And it doesn't get any realer than that . . .

NickD
BASE 194

It may be a tangent, but I think this is a very interesting point.

Do we (the collective "we") want to have more positive spokesmen? Or would we rather have no spokesmen at all?

In fact, given the reality of the situation (there will always be people proclaiming themselves our spokesmen as they angle for their 10 minutes), would we prefer that the potential "good" spokesmen stay in the shadows, or do we want them to stand up and claim the role of spokesmen for themselves?

Is BASE jumping going to find it's "Tony Hawke" (for those who don't recognize the reference he's the public face of skateboarding to millions, with video games, stadium tours, etc)? Do we want that? And is that going to happen regardless of what we want? And, if so, should we each be lining up to support our favorite candidate for that position?

I do think that we're headed toward greater commercialization, greater publcity, and greater exposure. I personally don't think this is a good thing, but I also don't think there is anything I can do to stop the rushing tide of our history. Can I push the direction a little, though? Can you? Can any of us, or all of us together? Or are we simply going to be swept away on a tide of sponsorship and television appearances?

There are very limited choices out there to be the Tony Hawke of BASE jumping. Frankly, I don't like the options all that much, but I don't think I can change that, because you can never recruit someone with all the appropriate attributes, including a desire to be that guy. Some of the choices I am fairly okay with because I really think those guys are jumping for themselves--not for the publicity, the sponsorships, or the money. Some of the candidates I really don't like, because my feeling is that they're all about the publicity, or the money, or both.

the woofs would never buy it. ever. if they dont have that feeling that is so fucking beautiful to almost cry the first time they see a BASE jump, then they are hopeless and will never understand the beauty behind BASE.

I saw BASE the first time on tv when i was 13 with my best freind and now BASE jumper, we said then, it was "so beautiful and amazing, i cant wait to grow up. "
his brother saw and said it was so stupid and dangerous, he still does not approve of his brother jumping.

I think it will always be like this.

So, not only does 'extreme near death' sell, its the only thing the woofs can understand. even the paraglider pilots i fly with say that saying BASE is beautiful is delusional and idealistic.

like is said... Hopeless....

someone said earlier that they will never be able to think of BASE as lumped with other sports, and thats understandable, because that is all they have ever seen.

but BASE is not the sole super-dangerous sport that it used to be.
However, BASE opened my eyes to possibilities that NO other sport could have, thats for sure

The only reason Tony Hawke is the so-called spokesman for skateboarders is he was able to go commercial. He became a successful competator then translated that success into an industry. He is the spokesman for that industry, commercialized skateboarding. The rank and file skateboarders didn't elevate him to the position. His status as self made gillionair/skate dude did it for him.

We gonna have someone go commercial with this sport? Cross over into merchandising and WalMart?
Garner favor with the masses? Hmmm... There have been a few make small steps towards it but some are dead and others are spurned by the community they "represent". We got nothing to sell but a little closer view over the edge.

jon

dude what does skieing have to do with kite surfing
wen i hit a big wave and sore threw the air im like the coolest dudester in the west aint no craker got nothin on me

having jumped (and plan on doing so in the future) in areas delightfully oblivious of BASE, I prefer to keep things quiet. it reminds me of the bygone era described by NickDG.

TomA lives in a community where BASE has a higher profile. I can understand how a good spokesman could help there.

I also agree with a previous poster that the Tony Hawkes appear on their own. we can't create them. should one appear, we'll know it when we see it...

we may wish for a nearby, perfect object. we may welcome a fresh, charismatic spokesman. we can dream, or simply adapt to the current reality...

I was probably more of a skateboarder than I will
ever be a BASE jumper but I did pack my BASE rig at
the DZ today between hop & pops, drank a couple beers
on the way home, a few more with my wife during dinner,
one reading Nick's post, and another writing mine --- so
here is my input of hops and perspective.

First off, Tony Hawk rocked, he did new tricks, really enjoyed
skating, had fun, and didn't end up cranked out in a hotel room
with an 8-ball and a dead girlfriend. He skated because there
is something really cool about gliding along paid for by sweat
and gravity alone. Of course he continued to do it so well so
long that he became popular and successful -- good for him.

Second, there are plenty of people who want to speak for BASE
BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN they really do --- cause trusting your
life to nylon and your skill is not like falling off your board while
trying to roll in a half pipe or trying your first invert. Trust me,
bruises and road-rash do not compare to the carnage that BASE
jumping or skydiving can create.

Third, I have learned many things about BASE and LIFE from
visting this forum. Great men and women have shared their
time, skill, insight, and criticisms with me. Thank you very
much for your help -- I appreciate it.

Lastly, yeah I agree, the fake name shit is lame. A few of you
might have to protect your identity for your military jobs and
that's okay but most of you want to razz people for your own
enjoyment -- to them I say, "go run a lap".

Slambo is my nickname, and im sure others on this forum use theirs as well.
There are so many personalities and schools of thought in this sport. People will argue about how underground to keep the sport, or how much we should promote it in the mainstream. Look at sports like freestyle moto x and skateboarding. Riders in these sports were considered some of the outcasts of mainstream sports and even society. Over the years, though positive promotion and media, these are two of the most popular sports, with some of the most payouts. Now Im not saying BASE will ever come to that, but it sure would be cool to see it accepted more. These things take time. Personally, i think it would be rad to oneday be at the x games, staring at a giant crane waiting for BASE jumpers to begin falling off it. Its an awesome sport, no need to hide it completely, it just has to be introduced wisely.
Last year we did a ski base event that turned out great. Despite the fact that someone alerted the forest rangers in advance to our plans (at a legal site), we were able to discuss with them what we were doing, and where we were jumping. We hiked with the rangers and showed them where we were going to be, and they were stoked on it. They came out and watched us the next day. We got a positively written article in Powder Magazine about the event.
Just saying we can introduce BASE jumping pretty easily if we do it right.

Kristian

doesn't Jeb have that job?

Positive spokesman as in positive in the eyes of the public. I doubt your average grandmother is going to be charmed by his [/hyperhyper]THEONLYTHINGTHAT'SGONNASTOPMEFROMLUNGINGMYSELFOFFAPUBLICBUILDINGISQUADRAPLEGICAND
DEATHHAHAHAHAHAHALOOKATMYFATSUITHEYISTHATSQUIRREL?[/hyperhyper] type of reactions on national TV.

With all due respect for the man's accomplishments.

yawn. this thread is boring. i can't believe we are jumpers.

 
>>There are some things here that I feel need to be said:



Pot, Kettle, Black

>>I haven't been BASE jumping that long but I have been observing the scene since 1997 and have been friends with several jumpers from that era, including your first mentor (who eventually sent you away).
Since the days of Blinc (before the BASEzone existed) you have posted online more than any other BASE jumper. Everybody knows this. You might say that is because you are trying to contribute back to the sport, but it seems a large percentage of your posts are about you taking jabs at jumpers you don't like, and about promoting yourself by claiming the things you've done, or that you jumped with so and so, or that a certain pilot chute in a magazine picture is yours, etc.

>>In threads, you come across as someone who is trying to sell yourself as an all-knowing persona. When you claim to know something and are proved wrong, you ignore it or continue to debate it until you someone is banned.




>>Like when you ban seasoned BASE jumpers from here because they openly opposed your views. I know of 2 such jumpers that were banned but never broke a forum rule, as far as I know. They opposed your views and both have been BASE jumping longer than you. One of them was even one of your AFF jumpmasters when you started skydiving.



>>Let me guess, this about Miles D. So you think going on the world-wide web putting down another BASE jumper who also lives in Twin Falls and also runs an FJC is professional? There's no doubt in my mind that you're misrepresenting him.

>>What about how you tell your students:

"To be a real BASE jumper one has to break themselves and come back."

And

"You are not a REAL BASE jumper till you have more BASE jumps than Skydives."

>>I'm fairly certain that Miles would never tell his students these two things.



>>How about when you made a large number of elevator keys for a popular longtime A here in NorCal.
This quote from Jimmy Halliday should jog your memory.

" I seem to recall that the first time there was ever any trouble with the W***** G**** Antenna a.k.a. Jon Agnos' antenna, was when Tom Aiello did exactly that. he broke in, got the key, had a gazillion made, put the original back (what for I have no idea) and passed them out as I believe we refered to it as "Hey, please be my friend gifts." "



>>You made a statement that is not true.


>>In all honesty, your motivations seem to be that of someone who wants to be a well known BASE jumper, and of someone who wants to make money from the sport. (As listed on your website) All last year and this year you have been charging as much as your competition for FJCs, and in addition to that, you charge $300 per day for coaching and $400 for what you call intermediate courses which cover things that most Other FJCs teach anyway, and some things that have been traditionally shared for free amongst the BASE community. You also charge $400 for gear rental.

>>I really don't have a problem with you or anyone else trying to make some money in this sport, but your post comes off as a very hypocritical attack on other professional BASE jumpers that you don't like, and your underlying tone seems to be driven by jealousy.



>>If you're talking about someone like Jeb, then I agree.

you are a bad ass kite surfer. i heard you totally killed it at jaws the other day and stole one of lairds waves by swooping in on your nano.

"I do think that we're headed toward greater commercialization, greater publcity, and greater exposure. I personally don't think this is a good thing, but I also don't think there is anything I can do to stop the rushing tide of our history. Can I push the direction a little, though? Can you? Can any of us, or all of us together? Or are we simply going to be swept away on a tide of sponsorship and television appearances? "

What is so wrong with that?
If this ever happened to the extent that you describe, wouldnt that mean that the acceptance of the sport has grown? And isnt that what we seem to want? I know I would be stoked on that for sure. You make it out to be a very bad thing. You may have even taught the next "Tony Hawk" of BASE, but you dont know it yet...

Tom, anything?

Base jumping willl always be sacred for those with their hearts in it. Nothing will change BASE for them. Nothing possibly could. No matter how many fools get involved in the sport or how much publicity it receives what difference does it make? You must be in this sport for yourself not just the surrounding noise/buzz. What do you care if more people know about and possibly oppose your act. It will not change. It is completely irrelevant. Even if BASE were so illegal it was punishable by death what difference would it make? You are already risking your life for BASE. What a waste of time this bickering is. The act in and of itself will never be destroyed and that is all that matters.

Since you appear to have so much free time why not turn the question on it's head?

What are the advantages of that?

I'll try to write some of my thoughts when I get the time.

you seem to think growth=good. publicity leads to growth, so publicity=good.

if you wish to make a living from the sport, I guess you might be correct. I hope you step up to the plate and expain your reasons. it seems unfair to make us guess. especially since I may guess incorrectly.

as for my opinion...

BASE is best suited to people who find it on their own. it is a sport that demands effort. if new participants start in the sport without having to make an effort, when will they learn that necessary skill? after witnessing/experiencing the dark side?

publicity attracts new participants. now some would have found the sport without the publicity. but others only get involved with the sport because of the publicity.

a surge in participation will naturally result in a surge of deaths. it will also increase the frequency of access issue events. local authorities may disregard 1 such event a year, but what if it becomes 3 or 4?

authorities may choose to limit access to current sites, driving the remaining jumpers to fewer sites. the increased jumping at the remaining sites will likely create additional problems.

a carnival, reckless atmosphere closed a prominant US valley a few decades ago. wiil the same close a Swiss valley? an Italian wall?

few will fight alongside our interests out of the goodness of their hearts. they must also have a vested interest. once someone can charge us $100/jump, they'll assist in the fight...

so SLAMBO, your turn to explain why growth=good.
the ball is in your court.
time to step up to the plate and contribute to the dialogue, not simply criticize.
convince me I am wrong.

Do remember that there are other activities with far more publicity and participants that still remain illegal. Publicity and participants do not always lead to legalization.

sorry i still bring up paragliding, but there was a time when PG was considered super dangerous and a death sport, as well as HG, now there is a governing body in all countries, and legal sites everywhere. of course, its not the SUPER DOOPER dangerous sport of BASE

how many of the sites are commercial? (i.e., the owner has a financial interest in maintaining the activity.)

how many of the sites have the liability risk of a BASE site?

I really have no clue... you may have a valid point, but is it apples to apples?

Actually I have to go work a 16 hour shift right now. It seems like you are the one constantly sitting at your computer scanning the BASE board for people you dont like.

and you also have a good point. it is obvious that paragliding is much safer than BASE, and always will have the reputaion of being safer.

i guess it depends on how you define commercial, here in boulder there is a local PG site that is run by the city. i dont know if that would be commercial, as it seems that the city gains nothing from PG there, and they act that way. they might know that PG pilots give money to city parks, specificaly. on top of tax.

USPA's BOD is dominated by commercial operators. they have a strong financial incentive to make sure the regulatory environment does NOT change.

people making money off of us will come to our aid. whether they operate a hotel, bar, restaurant, etc. people making money tend to have more clout than a bunch of out-of-towners.

obviously, every state in the US has a different legal environment. I still expect having "friends" would ease any concerns about potential liabilities.

Am I the only one who read Zegeunerleben's post!

Well said!

> Am I the only one who read Zegeunerleben's post! <


Nope.
As I read some of what Tom had to say throughout this thread, most of the exact things Zegeunerleben pointed out had crossed my mind. Then he posted them!
I'm not really one to stir up shit, but come on Tom, some of us know some real history. You should quit with the passive agressive attacks on Miles and Shane and the Tahoe crew (among others). Who really wants to be known as the world greatest base jumper?? If you have something to say, just come out and say it.
Am I going to be banned? I said Miles. I said Shane. What, I'm still here? Ok then, Strickland, you are a fucking pussy sheep fucker. There, that should do it.

you most likely will be banned......along side with some other good guys. I.E. Miles, Johhny Utah, Shane...