Basejumper.com - archive

The topic of using toggles instead of risers has risen yet again due to a recent injury last year at Bridge Day mentioned in this thread http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Also, there is video now posted on the internet of toggles being used which show how effective they can be.


The titles of the 2 videos are:
"Toggle Heading Correction During Opening"
"Toggle Training"

Here is a link for the videos:

http://www.johnnyutah.com/videolibrary.htm



I went through Johnny Utah's BASE Camp and was taught to start out using my risers. I was also taught after having acquired plenty of riser experience, at some point I may want to consider training myself on using my toggles for heading correction. Johnny explained to us the advantages and disadvantages of both toggle and riser use during our BASE Camp. Here is an article that explains in detail the pros and cons of using toggles or risers.

http://www.johnnyutah.com/risersortoggles.html



p.s Tom, can you please make this a sticky? As someone who has been BASE jumping for nine months, I believe this information to be invaluable for new jumpers who come through this forum.

Joe

You ought to check out the other threads on this topic, too. There are many different views on this one. I recommend reading through all of them, and then forming your own opinion.

Do you know what the wind was doing during the "Toggle Training" video jumps? Those are definitely some good examples of excellent toggle turns initiated immediately upon opening.

For counterexamples of what can happen if you happen to miss a toggle (and the level of jumper who can still miss a toggle for a split second during the opening), you might want to check out this video, which shows a jumper with more than 1200 jumps attempting a toggle correction on a slider down cliff, fumbling a toggle, and experiencing a cliff strike and massive injury.


I don't really think the "Toggle Heading Correction During Opening" video is terribly relevant to the question of correcting slider down off heading openings. The jumper appears to have the toggles before the slider is fully deployed (which is an argument for always jumping slider up, even at very low altitudes--but says nothing about what happens slider down).

1) I am aware that a lot of people have different opinions on the subject. I already have an opinion....hence my post! I am not a toggle guy or a riser guy. The goal is not to pick risers over toggles or vice versa...simply to show people what is possible.

My opinion is that both toggles and risers can be usefull depending on the situation. By showing this info it lets people form their own opininons instead of hearing the same things over and over again.

2) I have seen the video of that particular accident numerous times. Again....the goal is not to pick one over the other. Nonetheless, a riser can be missed just like a toggle.

3)The other video "toggle training" contains slider down jumps. I believe they speak for themselves...

4)the wind conditions in the toggle training video were extremely minimal (if any).



Joe

Yes, they are some very good examples of a jumper getting his toggles very quickly.

They don't though, show us, for example, how often any particular jumper is likely to fumble his toggles--just what happened on those specific jumps, chosen for the footage, where the jumper got the toggles very quickly.


Some good questions to ponder:

Can you guarantee that you (that's the rhetorical, general, "you", not the specific "traker" you) are as fast as Johnny, who has years and years of experience and practice?

Can you guarantee that you are more consistent than Slim, who also had years of experience and practice?

1) Of course it cannot be guaranteed that a toggle will not be missed. It's BASE jumping...I don't think anyone is or ever was in a position to guarantee anything. Things happen. A bad throw, a lazy throw, a bridle wrap, a missed toggle, a missed riser...no one is 100 % consistent.

2) Again...the goal is not to say which is better (defending your opinion on toggles or risers)...simply to show what can be done.

If someone does not possess the skills they probably shoudln't use these maneuvers as their plan A. But given the right circumstance (i.e. training at the Prine)...they can train and like I said....aspire to be that quick and eventually become that quick!

Joe

so you're putting this info as a sticky right?

Your lack of a reply or slow reply makes me think you should!

If yes...thank you

Joe

..." I believe this information to be invaluable for new jumpers who come through this forum."
.Joe
.

I know you got a response and answer from Tom but I would like to address this one statement made by you on your, PS. At the end of your Post about it possibly being invaluable knowledge to new BASE students. This is coming from a person that does use Toggles (so far successfully) over rear Risers, depending on what jump it is and at his choosing.

I don't think there is any need for a Sticky and I will tell you why. It is No big news or secret that Toggles for off-heading corrections are faster and more efficient for canopy recovery over rear Risers.
In the big picture of things Should defiantly NOT be taught as a learning BASE recovery technique. It is an advanced move that should only be practiced ONLY when the BASE jumper is 'Proficient' with rear-Riser recovery techniques. When I say, ..."Already Proficient". . I mean with several hundred jumps and with a proven track record of use with understanding and practice of REAL 180's using the rear-Risers proficiently.
It sounds pretty easy just exit, open up and grabbing and using your Toggles for a life saving recovery technique but it is actually quite complicated. When you see people doing this with Toggles successfully. It does not mean it is good For All to practice. One reason it work over the rear Risers is that It will be spontaneous & You wont even think about it. It will just happen.
also: Putting him/her-selves in those high stress situations of getting 180's and getting out of it alive with rear-Risers. even though it is (without a choice). ... . Is BASE jumping practice and building of technique toward the use of Toggles.
A BASE jumper in (my opinion) should strive to make use of Toggles over rear Risers and Good practice objects for a seasoned and proficient BASE jumper to practice Toggle rear Riser recovery should be Antenna with the usual tail wind or Bridges/spans. Cliffs with no-slider should be the last place to workout learning trials of Toggles for heading corrections.
Also, Even though it will be spontaneous action on the use of Toggles for heading recovery. You will and should be able to have the power to chose and over-ride your choice of Toggles before your exit. 'At Will'. with out a problem either.
Any Question ?
.

 I agree 100%. Well said.

I know damn well Tom won't put this as a sticky but I do think the article itself should be. It surely wouldn't hurt anything!

Joe

if facing nearby wall, TURN parachute. ASAP.

if you think for a second, hmmm... what shall i use to turn the parachute, I read 96 posts on the dorkzone and it seems for some circumstances the toggles are better and some circumsta SLAM!! ouch! i just tagged the wall.


risers can work great even on very low cliffs. 230 ft free fall, perfect 180 off header, both hands puling down on right riser from way up by the carabiner deal, he got it to 90 and then flared with 2 risers and stood it up. (high experience aussie jumper) he got an A.

toggles work great. 325 ft sheer cliff, poor judgement gusty head/ crosswind. 160-180 off heading. deep double brake stab to very quick and effective toggle turn to 90, then a fairly effective flare on the talus. (very high experience Asylum base course instructor) he got an A.

after a while jumpers get their own style, they fly parachutes in their preferred way, some carve S turns, some sink it in, some hook it in, some just pull where they land.

In utah's 180 toggle correction video, yes, he was like lightning on the toggles, but it being a bridge you cant tell if he flew under the bridge or not. plus, his parachute opened on heading, not off heading.

Oh, and when you do the flare, you do it in one motion, none of this up and down pumping business.

It also wouldn't hurt to sticky any of the other threads we've had on this topic. But then we'd end up with every technical discussion on this forum stickied to the top, and we'd be back where we started, wouldn't we?

Nobody will be (every time, or if ever) fast enough to beat the slack of the stowed brake line. There is a lot of pressure on the steering lines and once released they are going up faster than you can pull them down. So un-stow the brakes and you are going to surge forward.

But that's not the biggest problem.

If an object strike is inevitable and you come off stunned or unconscious with the brakes un-stowed how hard will you hit the next thing, be it the same object, another object or the ground?

If an object strike is inevitable and you come off unconscious with the brakes un-stowed and your canopy collapses do you want it to re-inflate - slam you into the object - collapse - re-inflate - slam you into the object, repeat, repeat, repeat?

A canopy with a solid brake setting is more like a bubble that can glance off things with a better chance of turning away on its own if it just stays inflated, and a canopy in brakes has a better chance to stay inflated.

How about being slider down with the line mod and you hit something and get knocked out. Who’s holding the toggles now? What kind of ride is Mr. Limp in for now?

And no, it's not alright to be a toggle grabber on every BASE jump. Open, and then point yourself in the direction of the LZ using the risers on every jump. Now no matter what happens you have a shot at the LZ using the risers if you have a toggle problem.

Have you ever had a toggle hang up (stuck toggle)?

Jump long enough and you will.

Or for real fun, let's throw in a one-eighty with a line twist(s). In that case auto-ingrained toggle grabbing can really bite you.

You can be a toggle grabber for hundreds of jumps and be fine. But every fatality that began with an object strike and got worse is always just one single jump. Except you don't know when that one jump is coming. Any jump I make where an object strike isn't an issue is still always practice for the ones where it is an issue. Since it only takes one jump to kill you, it makes sense to me that every jump is practice for that "one" jump.

Oh, and when faced with nothing but cold steel in your face on a dark night - toggle grabbers tend to become toggle flailers, even the best of them.

That's my opinion . . . But you can do whatever you want.

NickD
BASE 194

Dwain wrote a good article on this on Blinc some years back.

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21532

Clicky...

If you "know" he won't why keep asking? If every good piece of writing or advice was sticky, the first couple of pages coule easily be full of sticky shit.

Relax..............it really doesn't need to be a sticky.

Agreed, if not we'd have everything stickied at the top....
stuff like:

Maggotts way to pack for high stuff
TA's way to pack for everything
FOR WOMEN: how to properly spank leroydb
the list goes on....

I thought this is what the basewiki was for

[edited to add: except maybe the part about spanking leroydb. PM me with more details.]