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Its the Base rig with reserve, do you think its useful or not and why?

There was a guy at our dz who's got about 300 base jumps - he said he wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

From the CR website:

Is that Andy?



Unless that's an opinion you can back up with reason I don't think you should be perpetuating it.

The CR quote is very valid though

Gianni asked for opinions - as I don't have any base jumps, i'm just giving him an opinion.

And it's not Andy.

I state in advance (I never jumped a Sorcerer but I have Sorcerer packing video and I have seen Sorcerer's and know a friend who jumps Sorcerer (but this chap only jumps terminal walls...)) that I think that Sorcerer is a state of the art BASE rig, incredibly well thought and incredibly well designed and manufactured. But Sorcerer is a very complicated piece of BASE equipment indeed. By very complicated I mean: it is not easy to assemble properly, it is not easy to pack a canopy into it (consider that into a Sorcerer you have 5 layers of canopy while on a single-parachute rig you have only 3 layers, so the parachute into a Sorcerer is way more "squeezed" than into a single-parachute rig)) and finally it is not easy at all made your mind up to its proper use: if you DO have a reserve, you MUST be mentally prepared to "do-what-in-case-of-what-malfunction": not easy indeed.
Said the above, I try to explain why 95% of worldwide BASE jumpers use single-parachute systems for BASE jumping.
And, by the way, as "BASE jump", do you mean "low" BASE jump of "high" BASE jump?
Let us consider for the moment "low" BASE jump (for "low" being BASE jumps off objects in the 300ft-91m ÷ 500ft-152m range). Well, in such jumps, considering jumping a Sorcerer, it is very unlikely that in case of a total malfunction: 1) you realize you are having a total and 2) you deploy the reserve and 3) you deploy the reserve in a manner you can walk away with it.
Let us consider now "high" BASE jump (for "high" being BASE jumps off objects in the +1150ft-350m (or so) range). In such jumps, considering jumping a Sorcerer, consider that you can: 1) deploy your (main) parachute quite high above ground in order that in case of malfunction: 1.1: total: you can deploy directly your reserve; 1.2: partial: you can cutaway and deploy the reserve (that deploys quite fast(=in short altitude)) and ride safely to landing: in this case, jumping a Sorcerer is a very good idea; 2) deploy your (main) parachute so close to ground to re-enter into the category of "low" BASE jumps, and so, see above (=uselessness of having a reserve on your back...).
Now, what type of BASE jumps do you do regularly? Only terminal walls? Then possibly the Sorcerer is the BASE rig for you (provided that you are very WELL trained indeed: to assemble it; to use it; to pack it and to know very well indeed ALL its possible uses and do's and dont's)
Do you jump regularly at the same percentage both low objects and terminal walls? Maybe more low objects than terminal walls? With a Sorcerer you CAN jump also low objects (in my country, a brass ones jumper jumped a 246 ft - 75 m building with a Sorcerer (but that was the only systems he owned at the time...), but I don't see why jumping a double parachute system in those cases (and could be the 90% of your jumps) in which having a reserve is completely useless (no time/altitude to deploy the reserve) and only add complexity to the system.
Consider also, in real cases and in real BASE world scenarios, that, even if the Sorcerer's reserve opens in very short altitude/time, in case of partial malfunctionings (=line twists, for example) it not so "easy" to cutaway and deploy the reserve, if you consider that you are quite close to the wall, you are spinning under your main, you quickly cutaway deploying automatically the reserve (it is so the the dual parachute system works and this is why it opens in such a short altitude/time): guess what? Your reserve opens in a line twist fashion (it is obvious: your main is spinning, the "attached-to-the-risers" reserve free bag leaves the container still spinning... you got the point?) and so you are left with the original problem (=being VERY close to a wall with a spinning parachute).
On the other hand, a single-parachute BASE rig, yes, has ONLY ONE parachute, but it is WAY simpler, it is WAY simpler to assemble it, to operate it, to be mentally trained to use it (= no need to cutaway, do not even think about it!!!), to pack the canopy. The parachute is WAY cleaner packed into a single-parachute BASE rig (only 3 layer of cloth compared to the 5 layers of a Sorcerer). Furthermore, single-parachute BASE rigs have a very good reputation for working properly (even if this year there has been one case of a total with a single-parachute BASE rig, quite unexplainable, but unlucky events can happen even if you use all your possible care...) and so very few BASE jumpers feel the need of having a reserve on their backs.
I am not an expert neither an authority but I hope to have explained why only 5% (or so...) of worldwide BASE jumpers uses a Sorcerer BASE rig.
In fact, I belong to the 95% (or so...) of BASE jumpers who use a single-parachute BASE rig.
In BASE, simplicity is the key word. If it's simple, it's hard to confuse or misroute or misdo.
Just my 0.02€.

It's a very kewl machine. It has the potential to save your arse in a bad position. It also has the potential for bad juju. The best advise I'd offer - talk to the people at CR. They're going to have questions about what you like to jump (what objects) and other relevant issues.

It seems those that jump the Sorcerer love it, and those that don't hate it. A canopy transfer is pretty amazing on one, but if I've got a good canopy over my head - I'd rather keep it there.

No, I love Sorcerer. As I wrote above, I think Sorcerer is a state of the art BASE rig, a really outstanding piece of equipment. I would jump a Sorcerer (if I had the chance) any time from any altitude I regularly jump (I own and jump a one-pin single-parachute BASE rig).
But for my type of jumping (70% of low objects), I personally consider the complexity of Sorcerer is not worth the benefits (=nearly zero for low objects) it can give me.
Consider also that now I regularly jump A, low A's (in the 100m-328ft range). Now, try to imagine what it means to climb into the narrow (protected) ladder of A's with such a large and heavy burden that gives me NO additional improvement about safety in my jump... I say again, I love Sorcerer, but I do not see any point in having ONLY additional complexity and "cumbersome-movements" and nothing more to my BASE equipment...
Still, it is a fact and not an opinion that 5% of BASE jumpers owns and jumps a Sorcerer and 95% of BASE jumpers owns and jumps a single-parachute rig.
That must mean something. Perhaps BASE jumpers elige to jump a Sorcerer only when the plus's are more than the minus's (basically, I think they are 99% terminal wall jumpers or so...). For low object BASE jumpers, a Sorcerer only adds weight, volume and complexity to the jump.
Just my 0.02€.

Are there really any malfunctions that could happen with a single parachute rig that can't be corrected to the point you'd need to pull your reserve? Aside from the freaky one at that bridge out west? Lineover ->hookknife, 180 -> rear risers, 180 with linetwists -> hope you can get to the lines above the twists.

I own a sorceror and jump it regularly under all conditions.I agree, it is not ideal for slider down. I spend a lot of time in Moab. Having said that, it is an amazing machine. I think a lot of jumpers would rather buy two rigs for the same price as the sorceror. Yes it is a bit bulky, but it really gives your head warm fuzzy's to know you have a useable second. A few fatalities that "may" have been avoided if they had a spare canopy...... Jan Davis..... and Lukas Knutson....

In the end it is all purely personal choice. I also own a gargoyle... and my new "Merlin"(Wingsuit Specific rig) from Vertigo should bee here any day. It is definitely different to pack a sorceror(for me it's 4 folds instead of 3), but I have had very good on heading performance under my sorceror.
My buddy owns one also..... it's all he owns...... and he has about 500 jumps on the system, with about 8-10 intentional cut aways...... two under 300 feet. He has never had a 180 or anything even close.
As far as a learning tool..... I think it does a great job for people with low experience on slider up jumps. I did my first couple bird BASE jumps with this setup..... and I must say it gave me a little more confidence knowing I had two canopies back there.

Jay E.

p.s. come join the "ROCK DROP FLOCK!!!"

Lineover ->hookknife... ...or... using WLO riser/toggle system by Vertigo, by which you can clear the offending line WITHOUT cutting anything physically but simply releasing (with one-hand-operation) the line from the toggle.

That's good advice...Adam & Marty know their shit, but the Sorcerer is manufactured by Vertigo. I'd give Marta and Jimmy a call in Moab. 435.259.1085.
out,
the huck

Excellent info. Thanks......I was just coming to this forum to start a thread on the Sorcerer and Voila. It's already here. I guess I see the points being made but I have been told it only takes about 50Ft or less to go from one canopy to the other. I can't really see the arguments having any validity on anything other than the very lowest jumps. ~120 Ft or less. Hmmm....I guess I'll keep a watch on this thread.

Yeah but remember the time it takes you to evaluate, think, reach and do the reserve pull. Now thinking about it, maybe some hesitation may happen like ie. the people that hesitate to pull reserve and go for the main when they are low.

Yeah but remember what its like to not have an option... you simply go in....pro's and con's.... overall personally I think it's a great learning tool. If it saves one person.... it was worth it for them to have the two canopies on their back. It really comes down to........ are you opening at least 200 ft off the ground.... and are you willing to pay/ lug two canopies up everything you climb???
It's a personal choice.... but the whole evaluate, think, reach choice..... well after something goes wrong on a terminal jump, lets say a line over. At least after evaluating, I have a choice as to what I reach for, I can reach for a riser, I can cut away the brake line with the WLO toggles, I can chop the canopy and hope for the best. At least even if I come out of spining crap, I still have a second canopy instantly over my head. Or on a Birdbase.... where my main p.c. sits in my verbal and turns into a knot. At least there's a second p.c. you can throw out ... as low as 150 ft that will still save you....Bird-BASE goes real real slow. If you have a total mal... no matter how unlikely it is...... you have the distinct pleasure of riding it in from 1000 ft for about 10-12 seconds.... knowing the whole time...............................................................................................................................................





you wish you had another p.c. to throw out......




just my .02 cents.... I personally jump my single canopy rigs..... even slider up .... most of the time....... but some nights.... on less than ideal conditions....... my sorceror still gives me warm fuzzies on the slider up stuff....

Jay E.
www.adrenalineexploits.com

I wrote this in the "First BASE Rig" article. For convenience, I've reproduced my thoughts here.

Great rig! What a concept! I had one for 4 jumps, and it made me feel MUCH better about my ten minute "psycho slam" pack jobs. knowing that I had a reserve, even if I was the one who packed it, it was a second chance. I jumped it only from high altitudes, where I deployed with sufficient height to deploy the reserve if needed. Not a toy for beginners though. oh wait, what am I? I guess with less than 100 BASE jumps, I am still a low timer.
Good thing I got it stolen from me. Now I can just wait to buy a new, ONE canopy BASE rig.
Peace,
Thomas

Wouldn't you have the extra hassle of reconfiguring the slider on the reserve up or down every time you wanted to change from terminal to SL/down?

What is the protocol for the slider on the reserve?


g.

 
I still own a sorcerer. I jumped it for years. It's the only rig that I ever bought from some one else. I remember a time when way more then 5% of people jumped them. At the time there were fundomentaly two schools of thought. It was an east coast west coast thing. Every one on the west coast was rock hopping with single canopy rigs and for good reason. A reserve is really just in the way of a head high deployment. The people on the east coast who were jumping slider up all the time off 2000 ft A's tended to jump sorcerers. The feeling at the time was that there are functions that can happen slider up that you can not deal with with out a reserve. This is true. With care they can be kept to a min but they are out there waiting to eat you. At the time the sorcerer was much more secure then the velcro rigs. There were no pin rigs. It was only later that BR started building the one pin prissems. It's a heavy pig of a rig to hike with. As more and more big walls started to oppen up in europe and as aireals became more commen the single canopy pin rigs started to take over. It's a lot nicer to hump half the canopies. It's also a big block on your back. Not so good with a wing suit which is one of the places where you could really use such a system. It's also complex and a real change from normal skydiving emergency proceadures. And by the way. The thing works ritiously. I remember the first time I tested it. I was at a very conservative 700 ft. Very cool. The bottom line is that it never really became out dated. We made a choice to forgo the safty it offered. We chose to have light rigs that were cleaner and smaller. Don't lissen to any of these people that are telling you that a reserve is not needed becouse of advanced improved packing. That's bull shit and we knew it. We made a risk evaluation decision and chose a lighter rig over safty. Many of the people in the sport right now weren't even jumping then and are not aware of the thought process that led to the decisions we made over ten years ago. All they knew was they saw the cool kids jumping slick pin rigs in all the glitzy videos. Now they're the instructors. And the newest generation is being raised by those sheep. "Velcro is BAAAAAD! Socerers are BAAAAAD! Skydiving canopies are BAAAAAAD!"
It was a kind of nitch market for slider up jumps with reasonable opening altitudes and nice landing areas. It was great for that. If that's what you're doing all the time then fine. It's a great second or third rig. But you do want to have other things in your arsonal. Start with a Velcro Rig. Get one that has a wide tray and is easy to pack. Your openings will be better. The only thing I really wouldn't do with a good well maintained velcro rig is fly a wing suit or do terminal aireals.
The reserve. It's really a choice between a fast opening and a supper fast opening but you lose the ability to deploy from a total. The real truth is that there are not a whole lot of senarios where you could get a reserve out slider down from a total whith out blowing it up. It's a tight window. Concidering how the rigs were normally jumped it really didn't make a lot of sence to pack the reserve slider down. It's all a question of which functions you were most affraid of. It buys you the abillity to chop a little lower but don't kid your self about it holding togather at terminal. Something is going to break. If not the gear then you. Still people went both ways on the issue. I have to admit that I washed back and forth my self.

Lee