Basejumper.com - archive

Hey,

For fuck's sake people, it's not that hard.

If you're going to take the effort to put an add up on the classifieds and sell your BASE gear, you need to take fifteen minutes to do a background check.

That means you ask if they have BASE experience already. If they do, you check their references. You never have to go more than two degrees of separation to end up with a BASE jumper you know personally or has a solid reputation.

If they don't have BASE experience, you need at least two of the following three things:

• A confirmation from an FJC provider that shows they have signed up for a course in the near future.
  
• A confirmation from a local mentor who is willing to teach them and has sufficient experience to be a mentor (which you check through their own background check).
  
• A quick phone call to the buyer's dropzone to ask what kind of person they are, and what kind of skydiving they've been doing for the past hundred jumps.

If you can't even do these basic things, please don't sell your canopy. For all you know, you may sell a loaded gun to a lunatic. And I'm not concerned about them shooting themselves, I'm concerned about them burning my local objects.

Common sense people...

Tom, can you make this sticky?

You are really going to motivate people with this posting style.(sarcasm).
Try a different style would be my tip to you.
Take care,
space

The tone isn't the warmest and most fuzzy of all the messages I've read, but the message is one of serious concern that I also personally feel is being overlooked more and more with time.

Well, if someone speaks to me like that in person, I wouldn't be receptive to the message. Name and shame would be a better way. Why is he classing everbody in the same group? Start a new thread without being condescending like the original poster. Why should I care about someone's local objects when they are as rude as that? One has 3 choices. Whine about it, Do something about it or ignore it. Throwing a blanket insult (whining) aint helping nuthin. There are many, more positive ways to go about it.
take care,
space

To be honest, this message should also extend to the people that run FJCs........ not only can selling a rig cause problems, but so can giving someone the confidence they can BASE jump........

I know of only 2 courses that check out people "IN DETAIL" before they do a FJC, and one of those do not partake in FJCs anymore....

Thanks to all the FJCs that let loose the rest to our small Island without a thought to the rest of us...

Hey,

For fuck's sake people, it's not that hard.

If you're going to take the effort to put an add up on the classifieds and sell your BASE gear, you need to take fifteen minutes to do a background check.

That means you ask if they have BASE experience already. If they do, you check their references. You never have to go more than two degrees of separation to end up with a BASE jumper you know personally or has a solid reputation.

If they don't have BASE experience, you need at least two of the following three things:

• A confirmation from an FJC provider that shows they have signed up for a course in the near future.
  
• A confirmation from a local mentor who is willing to teach them and has sufficient experience to be a mentor (which you check through their own background check).
  
• A quick phone call to the buyer's dropzone to ask what kind of person they are, and what kind of skydiving they've been doing for the past hundred jumps.

If you can't even do these basic things do this, please don't sell your canopy. For all you know, you may sell a loaded gun to a lunatic. And I'm not concerned about them shooting themselves, I'm concerned about them burning my local objects.

Common sense people...

Just out of curiousity... Say I'm going to sell a rig to a guy and I get the following answers to your 3 criteria.



Would you sell him the rig?

I wouldn't. Mostly because of the 'local mentor' factor (50 jumps isn't enough to be teaching others to jump in my oppinion). Also, around my neck of the woods A's aren't the easiest of jumps--due to bust--so the fact that the offer for initial objects were for A's would worry me as well. However, there are places where the A's are the safest and easiest objects around... so that part wouldn't necessarily be the same in every region. But I would think the 50 jump wonder instructor should be a concern no mater where you are.

Sell it to someone overseas. Problem solved.

Here's another question for the prospective buyer with no experience: If you're going to kill yourself, why buy a parachute in the firstplace?

I think so.

It would depend on how I felt about my conversations with the person itself.

Would it possibly to ship the canopy today (so he can make some skydives with it) and ship the container to Twin Falls (for his FJC)?

How many skydives does he have? You say they have been mostly freefly and swooping jumps, but it still makes a difference if he has two hundred or two thousand skydives.

It also depends on the reputation of the potential mentor. I've met guys with fifty BASE jumps that I believe can safely take somebody just off an FJC to their local "easy" objects. I've met guys with three hundred BASE jumps that I still don't think should be a mentor.

Sadly, I think the time has gone that people could do an FJC and come home to a wise old mentor with over four hundred BASE jumps. That said, I also think that these days there is a lot of information readily available. People with good judgement can responsibly do an FJC and go home to an environment that may not have the best mentor, but at least a crew of fellow beginners.

It's not ideal, but it's what we've got and must make do with.

Hey NSEMN8R, you jumped my Warlock in 2005, when are you gonna come visit up here?

Hey . I didn't realize that was you. You changed your name.. Thanks again for the hook up at BD05. If you're going to do something like that again let me know. I'd be happy to donate one of my rigs for the weekend.
And thanks for the invitation. I'll have to make a trip up there sometime. Likewise, if you're ever down this way, let me know. We're mostly into cheap beer and "boring low stuff", but we still manage to have a pretty good time.

Oh well...

hells yeah.

thats awesome. I have sold a skyhop rig on ebay, but damn thats sweet. the paraglider pilots bitch that people sell their wings to anyone off ebay, but this is even better.

why cant you do a background check for an ebay buyer? i did with the skyhop rig.

I am selling a base rig right now on right here on DZ.com

it is available to anyone with $1150,

unless. of course they strike me as a COMPLETE and total idiot, there are indeed a few people/ types i would not sell to but in general, i am just looking to free up some space in the closet.

if that person gets hurt or dies... well you know, that is the sort of thing that happens to base jumpers, quite frequently i might add.

uncle potato head

In my limited experience, one of the 1st things someone teaching BASE wants a student to do is learn the pack-job. Without a container, that will leave out some important steps.

this discussion reminds me of the gun debate in the US. some want to restrict trade in guns, others wish to blame their operators...

video (tv, movies, etc.) make it seem so easy, everyone thinks they know how to use one.

few realize all the care associated with proper use.

some skilled individuals desire to have NO restrictions on their activities.

many unskilled individuals desire to have NO restrictions on their activities as well.

collectively, the restrictions are designed to protect people from themselves.

given enough motivation, people will gain access somehow, and it may not be pretty... (block access to a proper rig, and some will simply use a skydiving rig.)

some will view carnage as justification for authorities to step in. the other side sees people failing to assume the responsibility associated with every right.

some desire background checks and cooling off periods...

Quote:
[Given enough motivation, people will gain access somehow, and it may not be pretty... (block access to a proper rig, and some will simply use a skydiving rig.)]

Very, Very true!

CLIMBING is a free sport! Anybody who wants to can walk into a shop and buy all the latest toys, a nicely illustrated guide book and then go and kill them selves any way they like.

SAILING is also a free sport! Anybody who wants can buy a sailboat and set out with ZERO experiance to sail the world

PLEASE LET US KEEP BASE A FREE SPORT!

Who are you to say who can and who can not jump?

The only thing a newby with no mentor and not enouth skydives has on his side, is his BASE gear.

I lied about my skydive numbers.
I lied about having a mentor.
I soloed my first jumps,
But at leased I had BASE specific gear
and a video to teach me how to pack it.

Please sell the new guys the gear.
Please let them on your FJC's.
Please sell them the packing videos
(and every other video you can, it may be all the training they receive)
Please give them all the information you can even if you are not in a position to take them on to raise.

This is not 'Your Sport'
These are not 'Your Objects'

Like it or not, it is our world too.

Greeny

I don't really think you could control rig distribution, and I don't really know why you would. Sure, you don't want idiots getting their hands on a BASE rig, but as wwarped said, some will revert to using a skydiving rig. And with the amount of jumpers, *someone* will sell them a rig. If you wouldn't sell me a rig, i would just go the next. Sooner or later i'll get my hands on one if I really want one.

Within about 5 minutes of searching forums or talking to people (assuming you know nothing about BASE) you can find out that ravens were once considered an awesome BASE canopy. If you try and cough up the $1500 for a new canopy, but no one will sell you one, ravens are cheap as hell, and pretty easy to get a hold of.

Idiots will come and go, as with anything else. I think it's hopeless trying to protect people from themselves (especially with the amount of upcoming jumpers). If someone is stupid enough to come upon a BASE rig and go use it.. well... hopefully there's good video.

look at that. i totaly agree with the Mr ADHD motivation.

This is like picking the lesser of 2 evils. It dosen't make it right morally or ethically. While I agree it's not technically my sport nor object (it is our sport, and our objects), but tell me if you feel every muldoone needs to be able to jump if he/she want to?

Maybe this is the type of thought that people like NICKDG and other Old school BASE'rs say could be the downfall of BASE?

I'm a climber, trad, aid and sport. There is a huge difference. It's a lot harder to get yourself into trouble if you don't have experience. Most of the time, you just realize things are too hard and you descent from where you are.

You don't die.


I'm a sailer. There is a huge difference. If you sail across an ocean and perish because of lack of experience, no legislation is going to stop other people from sailing across the ocean.


Nobody, and like I said in an earlier post, I have no intention of stopping people from killing themselves. Suicide is a relative scale and for some others even my BASE jumps look like suicide. Live and let live.

However...


Absolutely. However, we both share an equal responsibility in trying to keep access to the object at the level it is today, or improve it. That has nothing to do with BASE, that's just a common level decency that people living together accept.

The fact of the matter is, today I have a cliff that is legal to jump. A serious accident there would draw attention to it, and probably shut it down (given the precedent in surrounding cities).

MyTwoCents,

Relax my friend, this sport is growing and nothing you can do will stop it. I love the freedom of BASE that is why I jump. Accidents and publicity will happen. Objects will close, access will get harder. The uncomitted will fall by the wayside (life being too difficult for them). The few of use who stay will have to work a little harder, risk a little more for our jumps, but the sport will continue.

Refusing them gear and access to FJC's is not the way forward.

A lot serious accidents in BASE are not new jumpers.
A lot are the experienced guys pushing the limits, you better ban them from you little legal cliff too. Just in case they ruin it for you too.
If fact maybe you should keep it all to yourself, but that sounds a little selfish to me

Next your be telling me I can't come jump it??

Greeny

Quote: [Maybe this is the type of thought that people like NICKDG and other Old school BASE'rs say could be the downfall of BASE?]

I think rules and regulation will be the down fall of BASE.

My type of thought is freedom:

Jump what you want !
Jump where you want!
Jump when you want!

I don't think NICKDG would have a problem with my ethics!

Yes, Please teach them ethis, teach them every thing you can, but don't shut them out!

I just hate to think of BASEas a clicky little gang that you can't get into unless you know somebody.

Greeny

Don't you think this is why it has lasted so long? Because people kept it underground, Because they usually picked the dedicated and experiaced people of that time?

Greeny,

It sounds like you feel ENTITLED to be a jumper... why is that?

What you label as 'clicky', I label as 'tight-knit', and I agree with Leroydb that this trait is one that has kept the sport alive, not hindered it.

And finally, the fact that you lied about all of those things to get gear and training really helps put your opinions and views in perspective.

-Seth

Sorry for not asking your permision to start jumping.

Sorry for not comming and ground crewing, driving, buying the beer for a year before you finaly said I could jump

Yer right!............

I think BASE was that way because before the days of internet and small helmet cams information was hard to come by so few felt they could step off the edge alone.

Now almost every jumper has a web site on witch to post his / her videos

We all have the descovery channel.

The numbers of new jumpers is just proof that all your advertising works

You sold the world MTV, every one believes come to America and they can live just like that. Now you have an imigration problem.

Quote [Because people kept it underground]

If you want it underground:

Stop playing the videos on every DZ
Stop Making TV programs
Close the Websites
Close the forums
Don't jump your legal little cliff in day light

but is that realy what you want??

Greeny

I didn't say anything about buying me beer. (I like Bridgeport IPA if your out shopping)

I haven't been a part of any production video.

I don't play videos at dropzones.

I don't have a 'look at me' website.

I don't think the forums are a problem, but I do think that the amount of information available on them is.

I do jump a cliff in my local area in daylight, and I don't want that to stop, but I don't feel that is something I should have to give up, just because people like you lied to get into the sport.

And you don't sound sorry for getting into the sport without 'permission' as you put it, but perhaps you should be sorry for getting into it irresponsibly. Eventually, you most likely will.

Oooh, on the note of 'permission': This is a self-regulating sport, not an unregulated sport. This means that participating members regulate each other, as well as new jumpers. This only works if we take criticism and advice to heart. This self-regulating element of the sport goes hand-in-hand with the 'tight-knit' thing we were discussing back on page 1. If I had to speculate, I would say that your local jumpers didn't think you were ready as far as skillset to jump, or that you didn't take constructive criticism well, or both. How close am I?

 
Good points, and as we found from the youtube thread, there's way too many jumpers that cant resist advertising constantly.

I squeaked into the sport without enough skydives, too. But I don't put my videos on YouTube and I have a several times more jumps than posts.

But I really posted to say:


Good choice. Try Firestation 5 Steampumper IPA, too. I get the Bridgeport or Firestation depending on what is on special at the store.

This brings to mention about that guy who was "tarr and feathered"

 
Tom A… Can you please change my vote on the last poll, Poll: Have the BASE forums gone to shit? , to YES?

MyTwoCents and SethGray… Stop trying to turn BASE into the USPA. And most importantly, stop trying to protect people from themselves. I mean, did I miss it? Where you two voted to be the BASE governing body? I know I definitely didn’t vote for you!

You know what, better yet… I like this governing body thing… I vote myself as the sole BASE gear inspector. I want to see your gear weekly, to protect you from yourself. I’m worried that you two are not inspecting your gear to my standards.

And since were at it, I’m designating my self as the BASE safety officer. Please call me before all your jumps. I want to make sure you have evaluated each object correctly before you jump. I'm worried that you are not taking everything into account in accordance to my standards.

You know what… I totally see the light now… I think it’s very important that you guys contact me often. I just want to make sure that you are jumping according to how I see fit.

Granted… I do pretty thorough background checks, so sadly, I might not let you jump at all…

P.S. SethGray, Greeny is ENTITLED to be a jumper… And he damn well doesn’t have to explain it to you!!!

Thank you.

Kris.

Wow. If you knew me, you'd realize that is as far from the truth as could possibly be. I loathe the USPA and the fact it has to exist. I actually don't have a single skydiving license. Maybe that's not a great thing, but in the context of your point it shows that I'm not a fan of governing bodies.

In fact, my post is precisely because I want to avoid being regulated. Hence we must try to regulate ourselves. Fine-tuning our approaches through discussions like the one we are having right now.

When actions of individuals affect others (and no matter what you say, a jumper dying affects people) and communities can't self-regulate, the police (in its abstract form) will step in and form a government.

Ironically I got a PM from somebody else arguing that the German BASE organization has worked so well to avoid situations like these.


Again, if you knew me you wouldn't think I was trying that. In fact, if you read my original post you'd have seen that I specifically didn't care about people killing themselves.

I care about my local objects. Not because I own them, but because I believe the community has a simple duty to preserve the opportunities we have.

I'm well aware this is a relative scale. What I think is dangerous, another person thinks is safe. What I think is safe, a third person will consider stupid. And I encourage discussions about these kind of things.

However, if you actually realized the situation we are in I think you'd agree on the problem we have. Feel free to PM me for my phone-number and we can discuss. Perhaps you have some advice and I'd appreciate that.

I should also point out that I've reached out to this person. I've encouraged skydiving a BASE canopy, offered to lend him my large skydiving container to fit his in, adviced to take an FJC, encouraged to go to Twin Falls before jumping solid objects at home, adviced to get better helmet and armor, asked if he tuned his brake-settings, etcetera, etcetera.

But when somebody finds a canopy on the market, one with a sub-optimal wingloading might I add, and ignores all my advice and starts hucking technical local objects, then I don't know what to do anymore.

When I talk to somebody on the phone who has four previous BASE jumps, and he tells me he's gonna solo a 280 foot urban crane, going hand held with a 38 inch pilot chute, you'd be scratching your head too.

im not disagreeing with your point at all, but havent you heard? BASE is hopeless.

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

MyTwoCents (and company) is saying: You don't have a right to hurt other people's ability to participate in BASE jumping (by, for example, doing things that make government regulation or banning of jumping more likely).

Greeny (and company) is saying: I have a right to BASE jump.


These two statements are not in contradiction of each other.

We pretty much all do have a right to do what we want--provided we're not hurting others. We do not have a right to hurt other people without redress. Failing to consider the impact of your actions on others is inconsiderate, and, in a BASE sense, unethical.


One final thought: Carrots work better than sticks. You are never going to be able to stop someone from getting into BASE. You can usually convince them to, for example, attend a weeklong free training session.

Oh, and one really final thought (sorry): If you think that Greeny hasn't learned a lot from his missteps starting BASE, you're not paying attention. Have a look at his "Lessons Learned From an Unconventional Introduction to BASE" post.


Sorry to lecture. [/rant]

I suspect you're ironic in some sense, but the comment is indicative of something I just learned through talking with another BASE jumper twenty times more intelligent than me.

Why are these discussions, and so many others here, always so terribly polarized? Everything is always presented as an either-or thing.

I have one person arguing that regulation and governing is a good thing. I have another claiming that everybody should be free to do whatever they want. Why can't there be a sensible and constantly tuned equilibrium where we try to regulate our own community loosely but respect each other's freedoms?

I have one person suggesting that if you wear body armor you don't have brains. I have another one claiming that body armor can make up for lack of skills. Why can't you wear body armor and have skills at the same time?

I have one person suggesting that BASE needs to go completely underground and hide itself, and another person posting twenty videos on YouTube. Why can't we enjoy the occasional video and share the passion with non-jumpers, yet continue to discourage people from entering what is a dangerous activity?

I have one person saying that you can't enter BASE until you have at least 500 skydives, while another will deathcamp you with fifty skydives. Why can't we place emphasis on the individual and form an opinion within context, instead of generalizing?

I have one person saying that the internet has no place for BASE infomation, while another says the BASE wiki is great and that these forums are a good learning tool. Why can't we present useful information in a sensible way and monitor the impact on non-jumpers.

Things are rarely black and white, and the question of BASE and its place in the universe will never have a definite answer.

Self regulating doesn't have to be a bad thing. By and large the climbing community (through its access societies) is proving that it's possible. Yes it takes effort, but it is better than total anarchy, and certainly better than government regulation. All it takes is a little consideration, patience, and common sense.

That said, somebody with four previous BASE jumps planning to take a 38 inch pilotchute for a 280 foot go and throw from an urban crane forces me to recalibrate my black and white scale, hoping to find the matching grey that fits the best outcome for my local object, as well as the jumpers involved.

moslty ironic. and thats not black and white, nothing is like you said. but the self regulated climbing does not always work, nor does the overly-annoying USPA, or the USHPA.

First of all… Thank you for posting a clarification of your original post… Overall I know you mean well.

Anyway, the way I look at it is… BASE and the Ozone layer have a lot in common… No matter how much the rest of us preserve and protect them, there are enough people out there that will eventually cause the demise of both of them.

With that said, all we can do is continue to show the way to those who care enough to be shown. And second to that, we should continue to BASE the way it makes sense to us. Because in the end, BASE has/is going to change and we can’t do anything about it…

So HUCK your ass off until you can’t HUCK anymore ...

answer:
see the post that started this thread. it was written in an antgonistic tone. the author latter modified it to be far more reasonable, but the damage was done.

opinion:
it is not enough to simply ask questions or tell people to ask questions. questions generate information, a tool. how will the information be used? guidance might prove helpful, or insulting.

should someone ask a buyer's intentions when buying a snowboard? bad things happen with those... especially when things look so easy on video.

people regularly demand rights while avoiding a corresponding responsibility. I do not know of an easy way to thrust responsible behavior upon someone else. I really wish I did. heck, I wish I could ensure I always acted wisely... I regret many rash acts...

Quote: [When I talk to somebody on the phone who has four previous BASE jumps, and he tells me he's gonna solo a 280 foot urban crane, going hand held with a 38 inch pilot chute, you'd be scratching your head too.]

Were you familiar with the object in question?
Were you familiar with his gear?

Did you suggest a different size PC?
Did you suggest a safer alternative?
Did you suggest he joined you at said safer site at a later date?
Did you offer for him to ground crew an experienced group jumping that site so he could see how it should be done?



A few years back a local skydiver was at the DZ showing video of his first base jump. He jumped solo off an Italian wall. He took a 4 sec delay on a skydive canopy, in a bag, using a bungee pilot chute. I didn’t take him on to raise, I didn’t do a full mentor job but he did do eight jumps on my gear off various objects. The aim was just to introduce him to a better way of doing things

Did you help the jumper in question at all or did you just flame him and leave him on his own?

Greeny
(edited for spelling)

Yes. Although I would argue that using 38 inch on a 280 foot go and throw the object doesn't really matter much. 38 is simply too small.


Yes.


Of course, I said he'd be better of using a 46 or 48, and that he should consider maybe doing a static-line instead.


Indeed I did.


Yep.


Yes.

I hope I don't sound like a prick, but I think that on average I've been quite helpful to fellow beginners. I started and maintain BASE WIKI to share information. I have offered a place to stay for many a visiting BASE jumper. I've PCAd more people of my local bridge than I have done jumps of it myself. I've helped people get their E. I've given people my body armor because they couldn't afford their own. I've lend people BASE canopies so they could skydive them. I've asked people to help me groundcrew.

I suppose sometimes things just don't work out. That's too bad and believe me I don't feel great about it either. I guess at some point you just have to let go, as you pointed out. I have no right to stop people from jumping. I completely agree with you on this.

However, I do have the privilege to come on these forums and ask my fellow jumpers to do due diligence when they sell used gear. Granted, I should have used a different tone. These are the kind of posts I should write, let sit overnight, and then post.

Or maybe I should just stop worrying about the things I have no control over. Like SBCMac said; huck it while you can strut it!

Thanks guys...

I can vouch for this beyond the call of duty helpfulness. Not that he needs it.

I have stayed at His place, been PCA'ed by him off that local bridge, been helped in getting my 'E' by him, and been the recipient of said body armor. He has gone above and beyond. I only hope I can be as generous in my way.

Thanks again man, by the way I just bought a full face, and am going to order the following armor:

http://www.sixsixone.com/...96-a5d9-c9478f4b4880

http://www.sixsixone.com/...58-98e1-3023521b39f3


What do you think?

keep up the good work. this is how people should GIVE to the sport, not simply TAKE.

actions like that demonstrate claiming a right by acting responsible. too many people neglect the latter.

When I read posts about loathing the USPA I shake my head...

While a few of USPA's rules annoy me, I understand why
they are needed. The larger a group becomes the more
standardized the rules/laws need to be.

Since BASE jumping has less participants, is less commercial,
is more dangerous, requires more skill, and is typically illegal
it makes sense that it would be self/group regulated.

Selling a newbie a rig? I would do whatever my conscience told me to do after talking to this perspective customer.

I didn't have anyone to show me around in the beginning of my jumping. And I was pretty clueless but a prominent base manufacturer sold me a canopy many years ago. After getting the rig, I obtained packing videos, talked to experienced jumpers over the phone, read as much underground base literature as a I could. So all in all, I was a risk but I was diligent enough to pick up enough information to do it on my own.

Then I ask myself, what kinds of people do these rules/laws attract...
Rules and laws give a lot of people a false sense of security.

SBCMac,

I'm not arguing for such a transformation. The topic and problem is what to do about the new jumpers getting into the sport in progressively more wreckless situations.

I am trying to protect some people from themselves, for a few reasons: If a jumper dies in our own city (in the case of you and I) it will increase the heat of our own objects, and support legislature to inhibit our ability to jump objects as freely as we do now. Specifically, I have problems with people getting into the sport who have been repeatedly informed by experienced jumpers that they are not ready. And with the 'passing the buck' attitude taken by many experienced jumpers when newbies call on them.

No, this is a discussion forum that I use to ask other jumpers opinions about things. My asking questions, and giving opinions doesn't make me a 'governing body', it shows that I'm concerned, and looking for answers.

funny thing, I tried calling you to make jumps for a few years with you, with no responses, so don't give me a hard time for your old decisions.

If you honestly have any issue with me, my gear, or my jumping habits, I'm more than happy to discuss your concerns anytime, give me a call.

I asked a question, I didn't demand an answer. The point I was trying to make (or work toward) with the question is that none of us are legally entitled to even be on many of the objects we jump.

interesting contradiction. I extend the same offer here: if you have a problem with me, please give me a call, I'm happy to discuss it with you.

Mike, you disappeared for over two years, and in that time our city's (and arguably, a far more reaching area's) jumping population has taken a turn for the worse my opinion. This topic stirred me into posting on DZ, and this thread is the result of that concern. I'm not professing to be authority, I'm trying to decide what position I'm going to take on all of this. If you ask the two new jumpers who you have been in contact with, you'll find that I've been very candid with them in this regard.

-Seth

Seth,

Of course there are contradictions in my post… I was being a smart ass.

And to clarify, I didn’t disappear from BASE, I disappeared from the group. A lot of the reasons had to do with that I like B’s more than E’s, and the group was critical of my preferences.

And that’s my key point… Unless someone is blatantly burning an object, it really comes down to jumping preferences. Because at the end of the day, a safely illegal base jump is just as illegal as an unsafe illegal BASE jump… Meaning, you and I both know that you have just as much chance of getting caught and causing legislation no matter how safe and careful you are on an illegal jump.

And my last key point is… You are not going to be able to stop a justifiably, not preference inferred, object burner. Unless you want to go to jail for kicking their ass, which I’m not sure is not good for the BASE cause. I can just see it know… “Your Honor, I kicked his ass because he’s making my illegal jumps more illegal…”

My overall point is… Let the rest of us enjoy BASE the way we want to and don’t tell us that we need to fix other people, especially when your basis is related to jumping preferences.

Michael

You know what... We should create a running post that lists out complaints, without names of course. And for the hell of it, not for flaming purposes, we can all give “candid” feedback on whether or not it’s a complaint based on jumping preference, therefore not a valid complaint, or if it is truly a valid complaint. I recommend this because I am convinced that most complaints are using the "objects preservation" argument in vein and simply is “he’s not doing it my way” bitching. Basically, I am convinced it is just “BASE Drama”, like its cousin “DZ Drama” (e.g. “Can you believe so and so down sized his canopy… He’s definitely going to kill himself…”)…

And Seth… Please PM the specifics on what events you have noted on the infamous BASE jumpers that you have been “candid” with. I find it hard to believe that their not simply BASE jumping differently than you, and others, see fit.

P.S. Oh yeah I forgot to say this in my last post… Of course I don’t have anything personally against you. I’m just doing what you are doing, taking part in this discussion forum.

So off the tangent of object preference and back to the real topic of what to do about unsafe inexperienced new jumpers.

Can anybody think of other serious solutions besides the following?

1. Ignore them, and hope the problem will work itself out.
2. Take up the role of mentor to educate in order to minimize damage
3. Keep communication open, but only give life saving information

Or, does everybody think this isn't really a problem that needs addressing? My frustration is that I don't like any of the options I’ve listed, but can't come up with any others that are feasible.

That's a worthwhile topic and I'll gladly start another thread for discussion. I tend to agree with Greeny. He's a smart resourceful guy and had some rough beginnings in BASE, but he is definately not a beginner anymore. I don't think people should be protected from themselves. If I want to sit home and snort my brains to mush why should the government have any say in that. If I want to jump off a cliff in the middle of nowhere why does the government feel the need to restrict me from that. It's a bunch of BS if you ask me.

I understand that anything can be portrayed as affecting others in some distant way, but in a reasonable world someone sitting around their house doing illegal drugs generally only affects them and their lifestyle. Same goes for jumping off stuff.

Tony

Pardon my candor, but how about:

4. You put aside the automatic ingrained assumption (you do know the old saying about what happens when you assume right, cause its applicable here) that new guys are the enemy, reckless, and have no clue. You instead check them out with a mind open to the remotest, minutest possibility that they just might not be reckless, and just might have a good idea of what they're doing, AND might not be on a personal object-burning Jihad against you. In short, verify that this serious problem exists first, instead of assuming it. Then, if there is a problem you can always tell them this:

“Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless.” -Yoda

I have seen Seth being incredibly helpful towards beginners and I've seen him avoid them. He doesn't generalize and, in my experience, judges on individual performance.

all you guys:

even the most prominent gear manufacturers dont ask much in the way of questions these days.

newbies, and experienced jumpers take great risk in choosing to go base jumping.

people will get hurt, people wil make dumb mistakes.

dont worry about it so much, just help out when you can.

i sold my base rig to a guy recently. I did not ask any questions, but I did give him a new helmet.

jt

I don't think that's accurate. What are you basing your statement on?

I know that I've had every major US manufacturer contact me at various times asking for references on potential customers they were selling gear to.

 

Whew… Thank you for getting us back on topic… SARCASISM, in case you can’t tell…

P.S. It’s “Jumping Preference” and not “Object preference”… And it’s not a tangent, it’s a correlation between your bitching and what is really going on.


Sounds about right... You have a problem with the new jumpers but you don't want to do anything about it but bitch… So if that’s the case, go with your option #1 and mind your own business.


Michael

It would be helpful if the manufacturers posted something on their sites to this effect -- "warning, BASE is hazardous, we will ask for proof of competence or training.." etc, and links to a canonical "what is required to get into BASE" document. Or would this be seen as making it too easy and increasing the sport's visibility?

Since you can't just pop a rig in an e-shopping cart and check out, there's no real need to do that. The manufacturer can easily have a real conversation (rather than just posting a disclaimer document) with anyone who calls them inquiring about gear. I have yet to encounter a manufacturer who doesn't do this--they all ask you some questions when you order gear. They also make you sign a written waiver, which pretty clearly describes the risks, before they'll sell you gear.

Perhaps it's redundant info, but:

Looks good, except for the egregious misuse of "it's" throughout

Uhhhhhhhh......

Hey people, by selling someone a rig your only giving them a piece of the puzzle. Unless they are going to do rollovers or tards that newbie is going to have to have someone pack it for them. I bought a rig a couple of years ago when I had no experience or clue on how to pack, did I just throw it in the container and huck it! No, you idiots, I wasnt trying to die, I was trying to live, and I received mentoring from people that where willing to pack and mentor me. If people want to kill themselves they wouldnt waste their money on a rig. Think about it, there are to many rules, and your not their mommy or daddy. Quite worrying about other people, and worry about yourself! Whiners!

as you seem to be whinng yourself, is that an attempt at humor?

it's a shame, as the end of your post detracts from a valid point.

I wonder if you also had no experience or clue how to jump? Why would it be easier to jump than to pack? I can easily picture someone who thinks that packing is just a matter of folding the damned thing into the container and jumping is just a matter of pulling on that string thingy to deploy the canopy. (How hard could it be?)

[This raises a good question -- just how rare is it for people to actually go do a FJC, as opposed to trying to wing it? Sounds like a good recipe for breaking a wing, to me...]


You obviously haven't read the thread. Go ahead and die if you like, but people don't want you to ruin it for the rest of them.

that is one of the most stereotype skydiver wannabe cool-guy posts i have ever read.

edited to add... not like i should be talking. i post to much.

From personal experience it is perfectly possible to buy a rig and a packing video and learn to pack.

5 practice pack jobs was all it took me to get mine to where I was happy to jump it.

Trust me no one learning to BASE jump wants to kill themselves. Just because we did it different from you doesn't make us suicidal it just means we assessed the risks and made our choice.

Comming back to where this thread started:

I still think we need to sell the new guys the best availible gear.

1) They need to have it before they attend their FJC, it is much better to do the FJC on the gear they will keep jumping.

2) They need to learn to pack it. This is hard to do with no gear.

3) They need the best availible gear when they are starting out, this is the most dangeous time in our sport and they need everything on their side.

4) If they do decide to go it alone then at least let them do it on BASE specific gear.
(not a good choice but their choice non the less)

We as more experianced jumpers then need to give them all the help and guidance we can. I am not saying you need to mentor every wana be that come your way, just that even a a phone conversation can be a big help to someone who knows so little, they don't even know they don't know.

Greeny

When students in my FJC's rent gear (i.e. they don't yet have their own), I ship them a rig in advance so that they can practice packing.

Tom,

Sounds like a good way round it.

Greeny

I wouldn't. Mostly because of the 'local mentor' factor (50 jumps isn't enough to be teaching others to jump in my opinion).
But I would think the 50 jump wonder instructor should be a concern no mater where you are. Interesting how the world changes, I happened to teach this person how to B.A.S.E. When i had around 45 jumps myself.
Just due to the fact someone only has 40-50 jumps doesnt mean they are not qualified to teach.
Maybe they were an excellent learner and/or maybe they have a few thousand skydives (which might help the learning curve).
When base jumping was started wasnt it taught from people that had only a couple of jumps? Did they not try and teach each other all they would come to know?
Is was a free tree of knowledge from one and another. Somewhere of the last while it has changed into a tight group of Better than Thous.
Please for the sake of lives and for the sport start changing it back. Do not treat people like this: This is what makes people lie to get into the sport.

I like and agree with this one. Teach all you can and if you cant or are unable to take them far enough, point them in a direction to someone who can. FJC isnt a must have though it is an option. People are not worse jumpers or below those who have taken a FJC. People wont make good jumpers unless they dont get any and all good information.

if you take offense to that, I'm sorry, thats your own deal. I don't consider you 'the person' who taught me to base, if I had to name one person who I felt taught me the most it would be Scotty or Powell. No offense intended, because I learned alot from you, but thats how I feel. I have the experience now to tell the difference between the good and bad parts of how I got into base.

Like I mentioned to you this morning when you said you felt I was acting like a 'base governing body', I dont' want to be an authority and I don't proclaim to be an authority, but I disagree with being as carefree and open with information as some people choose to be in this sport.

Its not wrong of me to withhold information when I feel its the wiser choise, I'm not imposing my views on anybody, they can always go elsewhere. Its not wrong to have differing oppinions, its wrong to impose them on other people.

I didnt even teach you how to jump! What a crock of S***. (those four letters can be taken two ways:) Who took the time and taught you intitially how to pack and who took you on your first 10 or so jumps? Answer me that Yoda! Wait let me answer that for you .... ME Thats right!!!!
Hmmmnnnn... Maybe that doesnt count as teaching someone how to jump in some peoples world.


I am not claiming all your knowledge of B.A.S.E came from me but i DID intitially teach you how to go about it. Who also helped out after the start of your jaunt into this sport, well you all ready named them! That is what everyone should do... constanly gain knowledge and add it to your pool. Now if everyone keeps acting better than the new jumpers, everyones knowledge pool will be quite empty!


Now with that said any smart person would always take on as much advise and knowledge as possible. It is all about evolving and if you learned everything you know just from one person well then you are limiting yourself, for no one knows everything.... especially about BASE. I myself dont claim i know all there is to know my REAL POINT was DON'T go all Higher than Thou. You need to remeber how YOU were taught, how hard it was to get "IN" and to not belittle people for doing it in a similar way to in which you were shown. If someone did background checks on most of us at the start, almost no one would be jumping due to the fact we wouldnt have gear to jump with! Cause we were all little know nothing wannabe's at that point.

By the way one last note...............
Don't let close mindedness kill...why not be open about information, if you hold back they only people your gonna hurt is others!

I suggest that you guys take your personal differences off line.

They aren't really on topic for this subject, and it's silly to bring this kind of disagreement out in public for the world to watch, anyway.

 
Maybe you should get out of your chair and move a little closer to the screen so you can see what i wrote! A bit was personal and alot was right smack on topic. Though i took out a few more personal sentences due to the fact you apparently didnt see a point at all. I had to put the personal stuff out there to prove my points.

People learn how to base then become better than the newbies and are to good to share info. BULS***

How one person learned isnt a valid or an acceptable way of being taught for other people because they are not you. BULS***

We need to do background checks before selling gear. BULS***
You arent their daddy...
Would any of you have passed a background check when you started? Most of us learned from friends with low jumps and some learned from FJC's. I think the friendly teaching is still alot higher though than people in FJC's
Who is anyone to tell anybody they arent worthy of gear. If you dont want to sell them yours then dont. But to tell everyone they should do background checks before they sell .... cough cough ... hello Mr. or Mrs. All HIGH and Mighty

Hey maybe ....instead.... sell them your gear and point them in a good direction .....down!(sarcasm)

nah just tell them good luck and i am sure they will find their way unless they run into people like some of you who wont give them any information or advice because they are not good enough for some of you.
:)

High was all caps on purpose cause you must be HIGH if you think like that!

it must be very relaxing being so callous towards other people's health and safety...

personally, if someone used my gear (borrowed or bought) incorrectly and got hurt, I'd feel guilty. I want a clear conscience. blindly selling it to anyone won't work for me.

so, does that mean I have a "holier than thou" attitude?

and some people feel lucky to have survived how they entered the sport. it makes sense to discourage people from the same path. what if they are not as lucky?

I want to sleep at night, not bothered by second guessing.
heck, we research objects before accepting the risk of jumping, why not research potential buyers before accepting some responsibility for their well being?

do you also just HOPE things work out for your jump buddies, or do you make an effort to help?

why encourage people to make zero effort in BASE? it is a bad habit to form.

Hey are you and Tom reading buddies cause you missed alot.
I dont encourage to be misinformed or not to put forth an their best efort. When you got into this sport did you not think twice about what you were doing? maybe even three times? I expect the same out of new people... they will be scared shitless and they will want to learn. All they need is help from all of you!
Anyhow.....
They last little bit of my last statement was me being a smartass but if you look at the remainder of my little rant you would see i am all for people helping others and sharing knowledge. That though brings up the problem i was also writing about people not sharing info due to people not being good enough for their standards. Hey if you help and inform people more power to you that is all i hope for. If your an ass and ignore the newbies welll bite one! In selling your gear fine ask them a few questions but you dont need to do a background check. They dont want to die either so they will try to find the right way to do it .

when I didn't know enough, I watched a friend with fear in his eyes. he jumped and wanted to live. he did, but suffered through an amputation.

fear did NOT keep him healthy. he FAILED to find the right way.


is blindly selling gear to anyone "encouraging them to put forth their best effort?"

calling you up and saying "here is your money" doesn't sound like it takes much effort...

when I didn't know enough, I watched a friend with fear in his eyes. he jumped and wanted to live. he did, but suffered through an amputation.

fear did NOT keep him healthy. he FAILED to find the right way.


is blindly selling gear to anyone "encouraging them to put forth their best effort?"

calling you up and saying "here is your money" doesn't sound like it takes much effort...
First off sorry to hear about your friend. Though times are different now. Info is everywhere if you can read, and if people are WILLING they will inform you as well. The second is one of the main issues now adays.

Also..I am sorry sorry now that i see i have to point out sacasm to you every time i post.
My point was (for the ones who find nothing entertaning or amusing ...(sarcasm)

Sell your gear ask questions see what they plan to do with it, give them some sugestions if you think they need them.
Oh and of course if they ask for knowledge and you happen to know it.. share it with them.
Yet they still dont need a background check they are not enrolling into the FBI or CIA.
And remeber boys and girls you are not better than them so dont treat them that way!

There it is ...That is my point wrapped up in a few short sentences for the mildly retarded...(sarcasm).

You really have to love how some people need to be Nazi's and do background checks on everyone, THEY think, is not worthy of jumping in their domain.
Maybe it's time those people woke and saw how unpopular they really are and how little they really know and what a risk those people are, not only thanks to their good advice, but to themselves as well.

so no background checks?
don't bother checking the credentials of someone:
- asking to jump in your area
- buying your old equipment
- teaching a FJC

it looks like you are new to this forum (being your first post and all). be aware your idea might prove unpopular. we have some harsh posters here highly critical of at least one instructor based on background/experience.

Thanks for the advice.
I may be new on here but I know some of the types of people who like to espouse nothing, but their own opinions.
Yes, I agree with you, background checks are necessary to preserve the wholehearted integrity of not only the local jumpers, but the sport itself.
It's just when individuals begin to attempt to govern a sport like this and tell those who they think are worthy, or maybe not worthy, of jumping off what they assume, are their cliffs, antenna's, etc.
Diamond had the best advice earlier. We should help newbies, not hinder them.
Thanks for the post and the ideas as well Wwarped and Diamond.

I enjoy BASE because it can NOT be governed. I recently discovered a nice object to enjoy. to my knowledge, no one else has ever jumped it. I could be wrong.

I'll use care introducing others to it. but hey, if they discover it on their own... so be it. the only way to stop them jumping is to narc on them. very uncool. and I'd still lose the object...

SBK does govern their object. they seem to do a good job. but that object has unique access issues.

some view sites like this one as definitive. it is not. it's not a bad place to start, but feel free to grow beyond what is found here.

Who put your friend off for that jump? Was there any background checking before the jump? Do you think that the guy who PCA'd him learned anything?

Whoever PCA'd him should have sat there with him for a couple hours afterward, facing the enormity of his mistake, learning all about your friend's life, and how it was going to be changed, trying to deal with the bleeding. He should have held his hand and tried to talk him through the shock and panic.

Perhaps that experience could teach him a valuable lesson or two.

Who are these new guys that you and Seth have differences of opinion about?

Has anyone tried to teach and help them? Has anyone opened their home to them, or given them any instruction at all? Have they been charged for that instruction?

I'm sure that it's you that have been doing all those things, right?

I am not just having differences of opinion with one person and i am not talking about a few newbie isolated instances. I am talking in general how everybody has to play the governor, sherriff and now the CIA.
Ah, and yes if someone asks for my input or advice i will always answer them or if i can not - point them in a good direction where they can get their answers. I am all about helping people who want information and hopefully i help to make their days safer ones.

Checking into someone's preparation is part of helping them. It allows you to know what they've done, to suggest areas they might want to work on, and to tailor instruction to their specific needs.

It also gives you the opportunity to guide them to more complete preparation (if they aren't quite ready), and also to guide them to experienced jumpers local to them, who can help them as they progress.

Background checks aren't a "win-lose" situation. They're a "win-win" situation. They benefit the new jumper (who gets help with preparation, connections with locals, and better tailored training), they benefit the locals (who get to meet new guys coming into BASE in their area), and they benefit the instructor (who gets a better idea of a student's preparation and experience).


Talking to as many people as possible is one of the most effective ways to gather information about anything (including people).

It's a little absurd to suggest that we ought to all be helping everyone in the world without bothering to find out more about them. It seems like a limited perspective might lead you to that conclusion, but unfortunately people who actually are currently engaged in helping new jumpers learn quickly learn that there are so many prospective new jumpers that some kind of system is necessary to provide quality instruction to anyone, rather than just giving everyone a quick shove and hoping for the best.

Why would someone be doing a background check without talking to the subject? I can't think of a situation in which this would actually happen. Can you?

It's impossible to be totally unbiased about your own capabilities and experiences. Talking to someone about their own background is very useful (and is always the first step, because they've contacted you directly, right?), but it's also very valuable to check things with more objective 3rd parties, and also with other people who have an interest in things in their area (like site preservation).

It's not like people are running around writing up supersecret dossiers on new BASE jumpers. We're talking about a very straightforward process in which a new or prospective jumper initiates contact with an experienced jumper seeking to purchase gear (or get instruction or whatever). The experienced jumper talks to them about their background and preparation, then verifies that information with 3rd parties, and at the same time gets other feedback from those same 3rd parties.

If all you do is take someone at their word, I am afraid that you are likely to (a) do them a huge disservice if their self-assessments aren't totally objective (and how could they be?), and (b) get taken advantage of with some frequency.

When they tell you "I'll pay you for that rig as soon as I get it in the mail" do you take them at their word? Or do you try for some kind of assurances (a deposit, an intermediary, a physical meeting)?

It sounds like you are either (a) phenomenally lucky, or (b) an insanely good judge of the character of people, even people you may never have physically met. While I am very impressed at your abilities, I must admit, with some sadness, that I am not nearly as lucky and capable as you in this regard.

They're not???

I think Hank's girlfriend might have a dossier on you

[sarcasm]
wow, is THAT what you were doing!
here I thought you might be open to new ideas. my bad.
[/sarcasm]

I guess it would take effort on your part, which appears lacking. heck, you can't even be bothered to close a quote.

I'd hate to depend on your advice. I can see why your "student" moved on...

uh oh you caught on to my evil little plan ehh?

I am glad you finally are getting into the spirit of it all and have finally found a little sense of humor!
So much progress in so little time.



How was that did i do a good job? Though, I kind of like how it angles out if you don't close them, it makes me feel like i am writing alot more than i am.
Anyhow thank you for the writing lesson.. ....Please if you dont mind i would like to sign up for another course? Looks like i need help with punctuation. Do you offer a class on that?

Occasionally sarcasm is witty & funny but more
often than not it is a poor attempt at humor.