Basejumper.com - archive

Few days ago, one young unexperienced jumper from Slovakia jumped from DW in Austria. Problem: He was hundred of meters away from the real exitpoint. (For peoples who knows the cliff- he jumped out from the hole near the hiking summit...) After a super short delay, he open the chute and then he crashed into small trees on the very positiv part of the cliff, 350m above mother earth. Helirescue was following, great luck- no injuries... Congratulations to him for surviving!
One day later, we (the locals) were there and we talked with the peoples who are living in the village below the cliff. They said, for the helicrew it was a very high risk rescuemanoever. Next days, the mountain rescue try to safe the canopy - the chute is still hanging there. After an incident 3 years ago, one fatality 2 years ago, some crazy treelandings last year and after this last sh.t, the police is also very nervous yet! Officials thinking about an completly "flight activity stop" in this area (Hangliding, Paragliding, Basejumping...)
So please stay safe, respect the farmers there ( do not land in higher gras!), don´t pull over the houses (wingsuit).
Please note- Bevor jumping the DW we recommend, that you should have a minimum of 30 terminal basejumps! DW isn´t easy- for experienced jumpers only!

FUSA
Verein der "Fels und Strukturspringer Austria"
(Austrian Base Association)

 
Unfortunately I feel that we going to start to deal with such situations more and more.
I won't be polite now and I'll say following:
How the hell someone can be so dumb and stupid to come to cliff for which he has no clue were the exit is and than jump off without trying to get in touch w locals or with more experienced jumpers , etc.... Luckily he survived and didn't become the part of the Nick list. To me that is the biggest mistake and harm made to Austrian Base association. Maybe here is the explanation
'' body armor - no brain''
Maybe we need to establish another list

People to Ignore - People to Avoid list

ITW - is a few steps away from becoming permanently closed
DW - is on the same path
ISTW- permanently closed
Croatian bridge - probably fill going to get the fence due to circus heavily organized by jumpers who does not even try to keep low profile

Soon if this continue will be no need to travel to EU

Thank you young boy for such foolish act. You and your mom can be proud you survive.
I am damn pissed

and while we are at it:
People still jump the waterfall in LB. After 3 fatalities in 6 month and constant jumping activities from the waterfall, the people in LB (who are very tolerant by the way) are getting more nervous about the jumping.
If we can not respect a few simple rules like not jumping the fucking waterfall, not landing in high grass etc. also LB will be closed.

As a side note: I'm almost 100% sure that not one Swiss guy has jumped the waterfall since it has been closed...

But this has been said so many times, every fucking idiot must know this by now...

you should not only be mad at him. be mad at those who assisted him via poor training or encouraged him via publicity. it's sad, but apparently inevitable...

the less people openly talk about sites, the less video seen, the better we protect sites.

keep BASE personal, not public!

DW is my "backyard" cliff and i live 15min away from it. there´s a lot of jumping activity at DW and i wonder many times, why people don´t get in touch with us. some do, but i think most of the newbies don´t. when i heard about this stupid su****, i got really angry.

is it really that difficult, to keep the few simple rules in mind?!

andY
*pissed2*

Sorry to hear about the recent problems you've had at DW. I jumped DW back in 1999 and it's a wonderful jump. Let's hope there are no further problems.

Since we are a self-policing sport and there are no repercussions for not following the rules, why has no one listed his name yet? I'm a firm believer in public humiliation if you screw things up for everyone.

agreed.

but why did he choose such a poor exit point? I suspect it was a newbie. if so, we ought to consider humiliating the person who directed him. should we not treat them BOTH the same?

my sympathy goes out to the locals.

sorry to read this miko and also the rest of the austian jumpers. that site it too nice to get it screwed like this!
luka

Possibly because they don't know who you are, or how to contact you? There may be a lot of jumpers out there who simply have never heard of this forum.

Not smart enough to use the internet for research?!?! Even if they don't know about this forum or the others it would take very little to find them.
Seems to me that if they are too lazy and stupid to find the info they should have, then they are likely too stupid to survive BASE.

On another note......... you are not trying to say that body armour is a bad thing are you Robi?

Try this for a while.

"Contact the locals" is a well known rule for all BASE jumpers. I don't buy for a second that anybody can learn to become a BASE jumper and not have heard of this rule, or not understand why it makes sense.

The BASE community has one of the lowest degrees of separation of any community. If you can't find the locals, you're either not trying hard enough or you're about to open up a new object.

Can you elaborate on this Robi?

Sadly, some people never think of using this cool 20th century interweb thing. I'm thinking I may be in the minority here, but my progression has so far been (in this order):

hear about BASE through various outdoor mags

google: discover dropzone.com and http://basewiki.com

lurk for months, learning heaps

register on DZ

oh boy with pleasure!!
What I meant to say with saying '' body armor - no brain'' is the kind of approach I have seen (99.99% super young base jumpers) who think they are invincible with body protection
stronger than rock
faster than speed of light...
It is very natural to feel that way when they are young ( you know what I think - right ) but to carry on that kind of behavior is nothing else than stupid.
It is not bad idea at all to have the body protection, but much better is to think and listen yourself, to know your own limits and at the end to call or ask for important things about any site no metter how easy it looks. People would like to have Boogie organized at ITW! Why?! It looks easy, well, check the Nick list 7 people died there...

It is of the subject, but I see that body armor became very popular almost like a trend in Base society, were people think that this stuff makes miracle.
In Russia, it was cool to have nothing on the body few years ago-now they looks like a warriors...

Balance and common sense will save more lives than BA-NB approach.

With all due respect Robi, your post makes me sad. Why are discussions on protection always presented as an either-or thing? Can't we have both? Armor and skill.

You don't see experienced Nascar drivers get into their car without a helmet, laughing at the newbies with their confidence boosting protection. Instead, they collectively agree that protection is a good thing, and build comments like: "having experience and skill is a must" on top of that.

You don't see free solo climbers laugh at those that use rope, making comments like: "if you were a skilled climber, you wouldn't need rope." Instead, the climbing community collectively agrees that wearing a helmet and using a rope is a smart idea. They also agree that skill and preparation are a must as well.

I know of at least one recent fatality where body armor, a full face helmet and a vented canopy could very well have made for a significantly different outcome. I know of at least three people who came out of an object strike with zero injuries, thanks to their choice of gear. At least two of these jumpers had great skills too, but as many agree: sometimes, shit just happens.

Allow me to rewrite your post a tiny bit, for the sake of argument...


Sounds reasonable, right? Yet using skydiving gear for BASE jumps is considered a foolish choice by most contemporary BASE jumpers.

What about the tailgate? Damn those new kids on the block who think they are invincible to line-overs and can't even properly use the Line Release Mod. We should make sure all beginners jump without a tailgate for their first hundred jumps. That way they won't feel invincible and learn to use the LRM.

The thing is, we have many gear improvements that have been proven in the field. Body armor, vented canopies and full-face helmets are some of them. There is simply no reason to jump solid slider-down objects without body armor, a full-face helmet and a vented canopy.

I know, you're making a point about people wearing body armor and using that as an excuse for their jumping behavior and sense of protection. But let's not blame the armor. Instead, let's assume the armor is a given and shows an intelligent choice. Once that's established, let's talk about attitude and beginner skills.

Also, let me state that I think that certain jumps can be made within relative safety without body armor. You won't hear me judge if you do long slider up tracking flights without any armor. Neither will you hear me judge if you jump a friendly span in t-shirts and shorts.

However, I cringe every time I see a new video on MySpace, YouTube or SkydivingMovies, with a bunch of high fiving yahoos jumping in t-shirts and shorts, all having a blast together. Put differently, anybody visiting my town and interested in jumping my local slider down cliff better bring a vented canopy and body armor. If not, you'll have to find somebody else to show you where the exit point is.

Harsh? Maybe, but I don't want to have to drag dead bodies out the canyon. But can't you still die even with vents and body armor? Sure you can, but you have to try a lot harder.

Let's try some made-up statistics. These are totally pulled out of thin air. They are meant to get people thinking.

Jumper categorization:

Group A: Unskilled jumpers without body armor: 30%

Group B: Skilled jumpers without body armor: 30%

Group C: Unskilled jumpers with body armor: 20%

Group D: Skilled jumpers with body armor: 20%

Chance of dying on object strike:

Group A: 90%

Group B: 30%

Group C: 60%

Group D: 10%

How much damage can we expect:

Group A: 90 * 30 = 2700

Group B: 30 * 30 = 900

Group C: 60 * 20 = 1200

Group D: 10 * 20 = 200

Total damage: 5000

If you haven't dismissed this as pointless math yet, what can we learn from this?

First, what group should we worry about the most? It's pretty obvious; we should focus on group A, train them to be more skilled, and get them to wear body armor.

However, there is a second lesson. Body armor is a much easier thing to obtain than skill. You just put down some money and you got it, no repeated training necessary. Most will discount this as a bad thing, but I'll argue that the stats above show that we can very easily reduce damages. How? Well, imagine everybody started wearing body armor tomorrow:

Group A: 90 * 0 = 0

Group B: 30 * 0 = 0

Group C: 60 * 50 = 3000

I think you may be reading more into Robi's post than he wrote there. He did say that he thought protective gear was a good idea. He just said that he thought good judgment was more important than anything else, including protective gear.

Put it this way:

The brain between your ears will always be your best defense against injury. The armor you cover it with can protect it from damage, but if you're not using it, that doesn't matter much.

Ok, I'm one of these new, stupid, know nothing, reasons BASE is going to shit new kids in the sport, but the lesson here is... don't jump till you talk to the locals because it can cause shit. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

cya

Thank you Tom.

I never said armor is bad!
What I said is that is stupid to hide behind the armor and think that this is enough. Nothing more, nor less.

My two Cents,
sorry for getting me wrong. I have young base jumpers around, I teach them as best as I can , including., body armor stuff too. (Personally I give 100,00€ to one who can find any video or picture of me were I have no helmet on my head when I jumping off the cliff, bridge, etc.... I am very strict about it)

Again, the BA-NB is the way I expressed my angriness. With all respect to you, but I am present in this ''sport'' long enough to notice:

1. It was never easier to get in to the BASE than it is now days.
2. It was never less demands put in front of the BASE beginner from their mentors or friends.
3. More than ever BASE is the trendy ''sport''.
4. Learning curve is not really curve any more, rather just shallow flat line.
5. Nick's list is quite good concerning the flood of unprepared people who are trying this ''sport''

Therefore, we all need to know that 13 jumpers who died last year is not that terrible, concerning the problems BASE community have.

Therefore we are facing situation described here ( slovakian young jumper.... )

Some of the people like to get fast shortcut in order to achieve something ( the slovakian jumper and his mentor, teacher whatever, wont be surprised if he does not have one at all too... ). Is this a proper way ?! No!
Rough, but that is what I think

I am writing ''sport'' because I have opinion about this too, and for those who know me, know why I think this is a ''sport'' not sport.

People who wear lots of protection but can't fly their canopy worth a shit amuse me. And yeah, I have seen numerous instances of this.

just a related thought. I have been wondering lately if the increase in deaths will shy away potential newbies because of a higher percieved risk?Increase interest? Or are other factors stronger?Trendy,cool,etc. Or will news of the deaths not even reach the potential new jumpers to have an effect?

will you find the news of the deaths on any of the internet video sites?

In a BASE global warming sense it can now be said the whole world is hot. And it will only get hotter . . .

The damage done by Felix, et al., and the glory hounds of the Youtube generation that followed his lead will eventually overwhelm any semblance of "control" this sport may have had. But what I find somewhat more worrisome is that some of you guys only speak up when it affects "your" sites."

When I wrote, in another thread, about this happening in the U.S., with few exceptions, I was accused of overreacting and I could have used some backup from you guys. But you left me hanging out there like a big matzo ball . . .

While we envy your legal sites aboard we also first (privately) wondered how long it would last. I saw it as a deal with the devil in order to gain something that should have been your right in the first place. If you had fought over the last fifteen years for the right to jump, instead of making deals, you might have achieved it, and kept it forever. Now you’re just a pen stroke away from being out of business.

Sometimes I think we are too stupid to deserve BASE jumping. Personally, my biggest mistake was about fifteen years ago the day Felix walked into Basic Research. Just another Euro-dog tramping the States I thought, but I should have realized the monster that lurked inside the clean cut young man and drove a fucking stake through his heart . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Nick, that was damn funny!! I was sitting in my living room
with my in-laws and my wife, only half listening to their conversation
while browsing the BASE board, and all of sudden I busted out laughing.
Thanks man for the good laugh after a shitty day at the DZ.

There it is right there. I think of it as the 'BASE Idol' mentality. "Ok, so I'm a BASE jumper so when do I get my 5 minutes of fame?? I mean, shit, at least skydivers should be looking up to me because I BASE jump right???"

The way I see it is the jumpers in the trenches at 4 in the morning know the real score. Fuck the glory hounds, maybe they can fool the wannabes on the DZ and try to get their needy egos stroked but that is about it...

Back when all the average home had were VHS video players we BASE jumpers already knew the power contained in those little black quarter inch video cassettes. At parties and gatherings, even jumper parties, skydive videos were pushed aside in favor of BASE stuff. Face it, to skydivers and wuffos alike, skydiving videos are boring unless you are in them.

With the advent of computers, internet video, and BASE jumpers willing to feed the machine, you now see the next step in the chain. Links to BASE videos on internet web sites that have nothing at all to do with jumping. From climbing to cooking to knitting forums you'll see, "Hey guys, off topic, but you got to see this! . . .

It's a glory hound's wet dream . . .

You can see a good example of this over at Supertropo, a climbing forum where the owner, Chris, is a BASE jumper. He posts his wing suit videos there and pretty much has all these climbers gushing over them. And its worth noting that it wasn't too long ago climbers were fairly anti-BASE as a group. Now there's a lot of, "Boy, I'm going to do that," and, "I just started to skydive so I can do that," type posts. I've posted links to the BASE fatality page there, trying to give them a Yang to Chris's Ying, but they aren't able to comprehend all that yet.

Of course, if you are type that thinks BASE is an "everyman's" sport than the above won’t make sense. If you are type who doesn't realize your glory houndness will cost lives and create access problems it won’t make sense. And if you are type that just doesn't care it won’t make sense.

I can write as good a BASE story as anyone. But my best stuff won't connect with a non-jumper, or skydiver, the way even a poorly made BASE video will. BASE gear manufacturer Adam Filipino once famously said, "A BASE rig is a loaded gun," and he meant we needed to be careful about who had access to them. Well, if that was true, then BASE video on the internet is the atomic bomb . . .

NickD
BASE 194

 

I am Italian, but "Matzo ball" is just funnier than meat ball . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Amen brother

 
I don't know. I've got mixed feelings on this. In the past I've always been rather privat person. It was only about a year ago that I even started to keep an eye on this forum. I was never much of a geek. It was less then a year ago that I bought my first video camera. Before then I did have a still and a few people have seen my slides. Following my second trip north I did send out some sets of pictures of that trip but for the most part I've never been in the habit of waveing my arms and screaming look at me but even I am guilty of posting vid on youtube. Over the last few months I've been campaining hard to find a playmate for the next trip. It has felt like standing on top of a table in the middle of a crowded party with my pants down and deminutive genetaler hanging out in the breaze. Actually that's a lot less enbarising. So in short I've lost the right to throw stones.

For the last few years I've really thought that we had a chance. Moab, BLM, Perrion. It seems like we're going in the right direction.That one day we might not be hunted and have to sneek around like theives in the night. I still think that that could come to pass. Look at some of the big events at the buildings over seas. Look at RG. I've been perfectly happy to stand back and let other people take the lead and stand in front of the cameras for that. God knows I don't make much of a poster boy. You know, none of these things would have become possable with out the "Glory Hounds" that put them selves out there to be seen. They may not be the heart of the sport but they are it's face that we turn towards the public. I mean it all started some place. Ron Silver? The one that took the T-Bow off El Cap. That led directly to the Bond stunt. That was probable the first time so many people saw a base jump. Look at how commen it has become in the movies and even television. Remember the comercial with Barlea? The fact that this guy is putting his video on the climbing forums is probable not a bad thing. Who are you going to ask for help when you get stuck on a wall. Remember the access rights discusion not here but on a climbing forum? We have gone about as far as we can hideing in the dark. We might be able to continue like that for a time but in the end it's a dead end. NY is not the first place to pass a law agenst us. The only hope we have is to find more acceptance. The climbers are a good place to start. They have an ongoing fight for access. If we could get in to bed and join forces with them it would be our best chance one day jump in the parks in daylight. But none of that will happen till base is accepted on a much wider bases. No pun.
I think the real question should be about what we should be posting for people to see. Again I'm as guilty as any one. The one video I've put up was pretty herendous. I did try to make it obscure with a booring title and it seems to have worked. There was a rush of views when I posted the link and nothing sence. I don't think it was seen by many people not on this board. If you want to put your self out there then you have an obligation to represent the sport. It's like doing a demo. It's not the time to hook turn. Honestly none of them aprecate your swoop. I've herd the comments about how "Out of control that one looked." Even the most lame and benine base video blows most people away. Jeb scoreing that TV gig is about the biggest cue we've had in years. Good for him. Jeb getting busted is about the worst desaster we've had in years. It's like when Jan Daves went in. That only set the sport back ten years. People need to think a bit more about what they are doing.

This brings us to a totaly diffrent subject of some of the things people are doing in base. I'd been rather inactive for a couple of years doing other things. When I finally made it up to Perrion. It was a bit of a shock what I was seeing there. Maybe I'm an old pansy. It was also a rather a bad expereance with trying to run a first jump course. I went up there with a couple of guys and then a bunch of other people showed up. It was my first expereance with dealling with people who were weened on modern video. They thought doing acrobatics like jeb was normal. I'm not sure what part of, "I think your fifth jump is a bit early to be doing aireals." was unclear. But the next thing I know I look over and he's trying to do a front flip. "Do you see how the hill on this side constricts the valley? See how the wind is forming little white caps on the waves. I don't really know this site but I think it might be a little windy even at the bottom." I honestly thought that was fairly clear meteralogical accesment and sence we had already made ten jumps I saw no reason we had to make another that day. I was actualy surprised when I stated that I was not going to jump that they would insest on doing so them selves. More then any thing else I just remember being a lot more afraid as a young jumper. That expereance was followed by Turkey which was an even bigger eye opener. It wasn't just the things that happened or the way they happened. It was the nonevents. The things that should have by all rights been accedents. The guys tripple off jugornot was spectacular. The line twist on opening were great. I loved the way his canopy did a full 180 degree turn inside the canyon while he kicked out of line twist with no way to control the canopy. The stileing pose he hit with his legs as he finaly got his breaks unstowed in time to flare was classic. Every one was chearing. I myself was rolling on the floor laughing so hard I was gasping for breath. Now if you know me you know that when I do that it's not exactly complimentery. It usually meens Darwin eather has or is about to clame one of his own. In short it was a total nonevent but by all rights the guy should have been dead as a door nail. Same thing on the windy roll over video. But there was more. There was the girl that got drug off to the crown for her second cliff. She thought it was much safer becouse it seemed higher then toumb stone. Had no clue that there was no over hang or that it is shorter to impact. I mean these are just the things I was awair of.

I don't know where I'm going with this. It's late at night and I'm rambaling. What I'm trying to say is that we're at a cross roads and there is no way to go back the way we came. The box has been opened and we can not recapture what has escaped but perhaps hope still remains. The next five years will determin our fate. Things are accelerating. The only way forward is into the light not back into the darkness. We're in a war of public relations. It's a battle that cannot be won defenceivly. Some times the only hope is to charge. The only trick is to not throw your self on to the pikes. We need to be seen. We need to become a commen and accepted thing. Seen on TV, comerals, the news, movies. Till people take it for granted and think a law like the one in NY seems silly. This requires a number of things. We need to put our best foot forwards. Put on our best face. Any thing we put out there shuld be screened with an eye for the woofo. We need to create a positive public image. The internet can be our greatest allie and Our best weapon but only if we don't shoot our selves in the foot. Would you want your mother and your grand parents to see this video. What would they think of it? Yes, that meens keeping our best stuff to our selves some times. Nothing ileagle should ever be posted but all of you have good footage of what you would call boaring jumps that would be perfect. Worried about the influence of some of the jazzy radical videos that are out there? Maybe the answer is to post one of your own that is more down to earth and shows the reality of what we do.
The final issue is we need to quit fucking up. This is not a time to be pushing the limets. If some of the younger generation of jumpers is getting into trouble there are two reasons. One is that you're not there telling them that what your doing is a bad idea. There were probable a dozen people out there at the point that could have said something to Magot. If your not there then you can't make a diffrence. I was there when Jimmy and the others made the decision to end the turkey boogies. I understand why but I still think the answer is to lead not to abdicate. The other issue is whether they will lessen to you. I don't know the answer to that. Those guys flew me out there but then they ignored a lot of what I said. I don't have an answer for that. But if the "younger jumpers" are a problem then it's our fault. And it will be our fault if this sport is out lawed.

I'm going to quit typeing and go to sleep before I make my self look even more stupid.

Reading this I thought to myself. No matter how good it gets, and how many objects we have that become totally legal 24/7/365, we're always going to have things that we want to jump off of that we aren't allowed to. Antenna's will be bought and made for the jumping, but our local antennas will still be trespassing. Building will allow events at certain times of year or if you know the right people maybe always, but we won't be able to jump any building we want. So the best we can really hope for is more objects that should be legal, to be legal. i.e. Yosemite

I'm very drunk right now, but I think that makes sense. Legalize it.

also, some people like breaking the law and that's a part of base jumping that they like. so maybe everything not being legal is a good thing for them. Also I can see even if every region of the world had a legal object, it might get boring to you after a while and you'll want to venture to other objects in your area that aren't.

Every lock is pickable or bipassible, so every base jump is accesable without anyone ever knowing accept you, you just have to have the right plan and the right tools. Some will obvously be harder than others and might cost something out of your range, but, i'm going to stop now. hopefully this inspires some good conversation and hopefully we'll all have more legal objects soon.

I remember never noticing how many antennas existed until I started jumping from them.

I also remember realizing local authorities had no clue about the amount of BASE jumping in the area. if calls came in about people walking around a field at night, and loud noises, people would think we were poaching deer.

it just is a lot easier conducting less-than-legal jumps when no one knows to look up! the more publicity we seek, the more it will pop up on law officials radar screen. if owners are aware of activity, they will make it harder to gain access.

once everyone knows about BASE, and that it has become relatively common, they will realize we are jumping THEIR antenna. how many are actually legal?

Excellent post, RiggerLee (although some of the language rivaled Faber's.. )


Well, here's this n00b's point of view: The posts I have gotten the most value from on this forum are the ones discussing malfunctions. The recent one on PC manufacturing defects, skin characteristics and line placement is a great recent one, but the big ones are the ones that take place after a fatality (e.g. I learned a lot about burbles from the discussion after #99 last year). So the videos that *I* would find most valuable are those of malfunctions. The more scary, the better -- right now I am in the position where all of you guys should be scaring the fuck out of me and trying to get rid of me.

So far it's not happening -- you all just seem really cool and I want to get to know you. So try harder -- show me all the ways that I can die, 'kay? Plus, that's probably the only way where I'm ever going to put my trust in any of you.

It is long ago but now it´s the time to say, that I´m the man who caused these big troubles on DW. And now it is the time to say that I´m so sorry for what happened. Say sorry to all Austrian locals that I did what I did. Nobody´s perfekt, everybody knows that. This was my first fucked up thing, that I´ve ever done. I still don´t know why I did it - make the jump from this place. I like to have the things under control, not like that time. What next, I did it, now I´m paying consenquences.To all once again, sorry for making this place hot. And to Rainer(skydivingmovies reply) and all of you here: know your feelings, cause if it had been somebody else I would have said the same as you wrote me. But I don´t think that I´m a cool man, I started basejumping because I wanted. To enjoy every second of my life, spending every second with friends, to feel the nature around me.not ´cause I want to make myself known, not to do basejumping for somebody who can say - you´re the gay, good work dude,super shot.. I do basejumping for myself, ´cause it´s my life. Please take these apologies, I´m so damn pissed what I did. Petan

Writing the location's name out in your post really isn't helping, regardless of how many people who know what it is (you'd be surprised at how many don't). It's good that you're OK, but c'mon... I've jumped the world over and never had any problem arranging a jump with locals with more than 24 hours notice (sometimes much less).

Welcome to the club ;-)