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Determining Fall Delay
i been reading lots of BASE incidents and jump logs lately and was wondering if there is a standard way to determine the fall delay?

given that some jumpers will be better trackers than others what do you use as an average acceleration rate?
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Re: [Zenister] Determining Fall Delay
Is this sort of what you're looking for?

BASE Delay Chart

I always feel like I'm intruding in here, since I'm not a BASE jumper, but I've done a ton of research. Smile
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Re: [Zenister] Determining Fall Delay
I believe what you're looking for can be found at the U.K. base site...www.basejumper.org
Go to the "base info" section, and you'll find a freefall chart.
-704
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Re: [base704] Determining Fall Delay
http://www.basejumper.org
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Re: [ChileRelleno] Determining Fall Delay
The other chart is good too (printed 'em all out), but strictly for calculating delay, this is probably closest to what we're after.

This chart is good for a couple of things. Determining delay, obviously, but also as a yardstick for determining altitude on a new object. One of the Blinc articles I was reading talked about dropping a rock and counting the seconds to impact. Using that in conjunction with this chart should give you a rough guesstimate of height.
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Re: [Zennie] Determining Fall Delay
Other things determine freefall delay as well. Winds and distance to the landing area are also things to consider. On a 600 ft object you may can only take 1 second slider off where as on another similar object a 4 - 5 second slider on could be appropriate.
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Re: [base698] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
Other things determine freefall delay as well. Winds and distance to the landing area are also things to consider. On a 600 ft object you may can only take 1 second slider off where as on another similar object a 4 - 5 second slider on could be appropriate.

I hope if you take 5 secs slider up from a 600' object, you are over water and wearing indestructible diapers. And if you take 5 secs slider "on", but not up, be prepared to land on 3 or 4 cells.
be careful.
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Re: [Lolie] Determining Fall Delay
I always feel like I'm intruding in here, since I'm not a BASE jumper, but I've done a ton of research. Smile
Absolutely not. Thanks for your contributions!

Your attention to detail is a good sign...

Blue Skies,

Bryan
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Re: [Zennie] Determining Fall Delay
I don't know what base jumpers do for figuring out wind (anyone?) but I had an idea. Bring a bag of flour and cut a hole in it, drop it off the side. That way you can see swirls, etc. and you can get a better idea for what's going on. Get three people to observe, one from above dropping, one directly out in front, one 90 degrees. Voila..

I'm looking forward to my first jump at Bridge Day next year. I'll maybe even do a FJC earlier in the year. Depends on money.

Regards,
Doug
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Re: [DJL] Determining Fall Delay
That's not a bad idea. But it might be hard to see what it's doing at night, which is when we do a lot of our jumps.

My mentor takes a small plastic bag (like the kind you get at the grocery store) up, tears off little pieces and lets them go. He'll do that at varying heights to get a full picture of what's going on.
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Re: [DJL] Determining Fall Delay
Or you can be simple and just spit over the edge and watch how it falls. This is really good if you are kinda tired from the climb (assuming A here) and you kinda have that thick sliva. Even better if you can get it to kinda "string" out of your mouth, almost like a wind sock. Cigerettes work nice too cause you can see the glow as they get blown away.
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Re: [Zennie] Determining Fall Delay
How about something bio-degradeable, that won't hang around long. Toilet paper works much better, and will dissapear in no time...
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Re: [flyinryan] Determining Fall Delay
The cigarette thing sounds like a good idea, but only if there's no grass, trees, shrubbery, buildings, dumpsters, etc. within hundreds of feet. Otherwise, it could give new meaning to "burning a site." Wink

Joe
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Re: [base704] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
Toilet paper works much better, and will dissapear in no time.

Good call. I'll make sure to bring some along on our next outing.
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Re: [JDBoston] Determining Fall Delay
If you are gonna "burn" a site you might as well go all out. I think if any of our sites get burned we should set fire to them, since, really, if you can't jump it then it becomes totally useless. And remember, fire is cool!
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Re: [Zennie] Determining Fall Delay
I'm sure when I do the FJC I'll be taking a *lot* of toilet paper along....Wink

BTW does anybody actually use those laser range-finder gizmos?
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Re: [skreamer] Determining Fall Delay
In a word...Yes.
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Re: [base704] Determining Fall Delay
I use a range finder pretty reguarly.

Fun toy.
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Re: [flyinryan] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
If you are gonna "burn" a site you might as well go all out. I think if any of our sites get burned we should set fire to them, since, really, if you can't jump it then it becomes totally useless. And remember, fire is cool!

Fire is cool. Arson isn’t. Show a little respect to the owners/environment, dude. Most objects aren’t just there to be jumped from, believe it or not.
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Re: [Lolie] Determining Fall Delay
Actually, I'm going to go w/ flyinryan on this one. A moltov cocktail or two thrown from the top of an antennae would not only look cool but would give great insight as to what the winds are doing from the floor up.Wink

Ok fine, I'll stick with my bag of flour idea. Like I said, I have no base experience so I don't know what you really want to look for and what you can dismiss but a big column of fluffy stuff will enable you to see updrafts, swirls, basically all the stuff dorks like me did in college with wind tunnels and smoke sticks.

Damn, I really need to ask Mom and Dad for BASE gear for Christmas. FAT CHANCE.

PEACE,
Doug
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Re: [Lolie] Determining Fall Delay
That 'whooosh' sound wasn't a Boeing flying over your head... Tongue
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Re: [skreamer] Determining Fall Delay
Blush What did I miss?
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Re: [Lolie] Determining Fall Delay
He was just joking you that you took the suggestion of actually burning sites seriously. Or maybe we didn't get it that you were joking that you took it seriously, or....sh1t, I've gone cross-eyed.

Ok, to get the forum back on topic. Fall Delay...um is when you delay as you fall and um...

-Doug
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Re: [DJL] Determining Fall Delay
How to determine fall delay. Exit object. Wait until you are absolutely positive that you are going to bounce, then count to three, then pull.
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Re:Just cant help it
I just got this link from a freind of mine...Sly

http://www.scuffmark.com/games/jumper.html

Be sure to pull in the rigth altitude,or elseShocked
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Re: [Zennie] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
In reply to:
Toilet paper works much better, and will dissapear in no time.

Good call. I'll make sure to bring some along on our next outing.

Actually, I know several people who bring toilet paper along on their jumps for an entirely different purpose. heh heh...
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Re: [DexterBase] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
Actually, I know several people who bring toilet paper along on their jumps for an entirely different purpose. heh heh...

I know aswell..they have to dry their eyes when they are runningSlyAngelicSly
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Re: [motherhucker] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
I hope if you take 5 secs slider up from a 600' object, you are over water and wearing indestructible diapers. And if you take 5 secs slider "on", but not up, be prepared to land on 3 or 4 cells.
be careful.

Not necessarily. One thing I carry with me all the time (loaded in my Palm, and yes I'm a geek) is a fall rate chart. A five second delay until PC deployment is likely approximately six seconds to canopy pressurization.

[note that this is a big assumption - despite the critical nature of post-PC extraction length calculations to anyone doing really low pulls, I've never seen a consensus on exactly how long after PC deployment until a given canopy is pressurized and flying. . . clearly, one would expect this number to vary depending on slider up/slider down, direct/indirect stow or no stow slider up, venting or unvented canopy, etc. . . however, as a general rule I've heard others talk about a standard, 1 second post-PC deployment delay until pressurization. . . mostly, those who play the low pull game develop a very good "gut feel" of how long until PC deployment is possible by doing lots of jumps and building a virtual model in their mind of where the fringe of the chart is and how close to the fringe is possible without going to the hospital or morgue. . . an interesting topic, at least to me.]

A body falling for six seconds with no decceleration (either from aerodynamic drag or partial canopy extraction drag) would eat up 504 feet, and be going 94.09mph. One hundred feet of canopy time is not on the low end of the spectrum - I've seen (and partaken in) lower than this many times, even slider up.

Which brings me to an important issue. First, it is important to actually have a good feel for the "fall rate chart," particularly when dealing with subterminal objects (less than about 850feet to deployment). I know several jumpers who have simply memorized the zero to seven second fall rate chart. While this is (obviously) a continuous function, some data points extracted from the curve are:

1 10.91 16
2 31.36 62
3 51.81 138
4 70.91 242
5 84.54 366
6 94.09 504
7 100.91 652
8 terminal 808
9 terminal 971

Note that the distance travelled in freefall is far from linear; in fact, it's approximately geometric until about 7 seconds. This is why, in my opionion, timing delays accurately between 2 and 6 seconds is an advanced BASE skill mastered by few folks. Things happen fast in that zone- acceleration and distance fallen are increasing at an increasing rate (humans think mostly in linear terms, so most folks don't naturally cotton to this math). It takes alot of jumps to get a feel for how this curve really unfolds in freefall.

This is, of course, particularly relevant when "low pulling." Taking 4 seconds off a 440 foot object requires pretty good timing, for example. Take five (assuming the opening didn't break your back slider off), and you'll likely impact at line stretch. Take three, and well you are wasting valuable freefall time Sly

If we are not using laser rangefinders (or if the exit is underhung and makes a laser reading impossible without climbing gear to set an anchor and partially rappel off the exit for a clean line of sight), then the way to see how high an object is (and thus what delay is possible, assuming no glide to landing area problems, etc.) is by rock drop.

WARNING Doing rock drops incorrectly can result in substantively incorrect readings and potential fatalities! A rock - in order to overcome aerodynamic inertia - must be (by conventional wisdom) at least as big as a softball and roughly spherical. A smaller rock - or one with a flatter shape - will slow down and hit "terminal" much earlier than a falling human body before transition to track (and without a wingsuit).

Thus, throwing a flat or small rock off a cliff, timing (with a watch) eight seconds, and planning a 5 second slider up delay is a likely fatality. The object may well be only 500 feet or so high - and a 5 second slider up delay off that will result in impact at line stretch most likely. Fatality.

Also remember that "lighter" rocks (like volcanic tuft) will float no matter how big they are, within reason. Their density is too low to offer accurate rock drops.

I've seen many experienced jumpers make these rock drop mistakes, thereby systematically over-estimating how high cliff exits are. This is extremely dangerous.

Yes, low pulls are a dangerous game. It is stupid - why would anyone do it? Don't do low pulls. In other words, do as a I say and not as I do (as in so many other areas).

Peace,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
http://www.wrinko.com
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Re: [Dd0g] Determining Fall Delay
Dwain has been gracious enough to step in and correct some inaccuracies in my statements above. I've excerpted elements from his correspondence to me, with his permission:

Hey I just read your dropzone.com post regarding delay/distance. There are a couple of minor inaccuracies (in my opinion) which add up to a big inaccuracy if taken literally.

First of all MotherHucker wrote: "I hope if you take 5 secs slider up from a 600' object, you are over water and wearing indestructible diapers. "

This is true 95% of the time.

"And if you take 5 secs slider "on", but not up, be prepared to land on 3 or 4 cells. "

This is not true. "Be prepared to land with a broken neck" is more accurate.

You wrote:

"A five second delay until PC deployment is likely approximately six seconds to canopy pressurization."

This is totally wrong.
[emphasis added]

From memory if you release a p/c at about the 5 second mark you will hit LINE STRETCH at about 6.2 - 6.3 seconds after exit (it takes about 1.3 seconds from p/c release to line stretch at that speed, from memory - it's definitely more than a second). This means you will you will begin to decelerate at about 60 - 70 feet above the ground while travelling at about 97 miles per hour downwards. In this instance MH's first statement is correct. You will hit the ground very hard during deployment. . .

As to the other 5% of the time: I have a video of myself jumping a 590 ft cliff and taking very close to a 5 second delay slider up (brakes off, nice flare landing with a few secs canopy time). This doesn't work according to the math. However this is possible due to a number of factors (I believe): 1. The canopy deployment was unusually fast for slider up, and I'm relatively light so I don't use as much height for deployment. 2. I jumped up on the launch a fair way so that probably squeezed an extra 1/2 second or more out of the freefall (charts are based on just dropping straight down - nobody does that unless you do a hanging exit - notice how quickly you go down when you do a hanging exit from [that B we jump alot that is about 340 feet to impact] - you have way less time). Same goes for the way you exit - you launch up and out, so you tend to get more freefall time. If you wanted to relate it to the freefall charts you'd have to start timing at the top of your arc during freefall, not when your feet leave the exit point. 3. I was slow falling the whole way getting max air resistance. I've noticed that the freefall charts don't apply to myself that much because I can really float in freefall. This is how I can get 7.5 secs from a 930' cliff in Australia whereas others are smoking it way down on deep sixes.

You wrote:

"I've never seen a consensus on exactly how long after PC deployment until a given canopy is pressurized and flying"

Well time isn't as important as distance travelled from pc release to reaching full pressurization (but I know this is what you meant). There isn't a general consensus because this is so highly variable. Say you and KS were jumping the same canopy, same packjob, same wingloading, (ie. your canopy would be more than twice the size of hers), etc etc and you deployed side by side. You will always open way lower than her because it will always take way more energy to decelerate you (M*V squared). Therefore KS will always be able to dump lower than you (providing other things remain constant). Being heavy means your p/c tosses must always be higher. You'll never win (and live) a low pull comp against someone lighter (if they are good) whereas you may win a lowest deployment comp. Same goes for really low freefalls. You require more energy (and therefore more height) to decelerate. This is all academic though and I know you already know this. Loose the weight fat boy if you want to dump/exit ultra low. ;-)


[ha ha - thanks Dwain! Tongue ]

You wrote: "however, as a general rule I've heard others talk about a standard, 1 second post-PC deployment delay until pressurization"

One second isn't a valid time to apply under any set of circumstances (from my research). On a one sec delay it takes 2 secs from p/c release to line stretch. On a 2 sec delay it takes 1.6 secs from p/c release to line stretch (all averages). It seems to stabilize out at about 1.1 - 1.2 secs from p/c release to line stretch at terminal (from memory - I did all these figures 6 or 7 years ago and my memory a little rusty). Full pressurization eats up a LOT more altitude and is highly variable on a huge range of things.

Once again this is mostly academic. Your delay usually should depend upon eyeballing the ground, not counting. No matter how badly you want to take a 5 secs from 600ft (saying that you just drop off the exit - not jump up) I'm sure you'll have the pc out before 4.5 secs because your survival instinct will kick in.

Basically my point is that the charts aren't valid unless you measure freefall time from the top of the arc on exit.

The other point is the way we measure freefall time in BASE is stupid. It would be much more meaningful to measure from the time that we start moving downwards to the time we start decelerating (ie. hit line stretch). This is more relevant to the actual act we are performing. Timing exit to pc release just describes what the jumper did, it doesn't tell the full (and more relevant) picture of what actually happened in terms of distance travelled and speed obtained. But the standards are set and there is no way it will ever be changed. Also my brain is so wired in to the current system I don't think I could change.


My thanks to Dwain for the clarifications; I hope folks appreciate the years of experience that stand behind his statements. . . well, all except for the "fat boy" quip Laugh

Peace,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
http://www.wrinko.com
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Re: [Dd0g] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
This is, of course, particularly relevant when "low pulling." Taking 4 seconds off a 440 foot object requires pretty good timing, for example. Take five (assuming the opening didn't break your back slider off), and you'll likely impact at line stretch. Take three, and well you are wasting valuable freefall time

You could always chop it and take the restSly

What i want to say is that,dont go lower than you are comfomtabel whit.
While im an newbie,and still mean that 400ft is an exelent altitude and not so much stess by pulling "high",making the hole jump a bit safer.It will all come when the person fell for it.

But wery interesting.

Dwain could you please contact me,i have some Q´s for YOU only.
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Re: [Lolie] Determining Fall Delay
In reply to:
In reply to:
If you are gonna "burn" a site you might as well go all out. I think if any of our sites get burned we should set fire to them, since, really, if you can't jump it then it becomes totally useless. And remember, fire is cool!

Fire is cool. Arson isn’t. Show a little respect to the owners/environment, dude. Most objects aren’t just there to be jumped from, believe it or not.

Okay, I know this is an old thread, but I was doing a search just now and found this post--I DEFINITELY didn't write it! Laugh I have no idea who did, but I use a lot of computer labs and friends' computers, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.

Just wanted to let all y'all know I have a sense of humor (albeit on that goes unappreciated by most... Wink)

Alright, nothing more to see here, folks; move it along...