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Hi,

someday I met a guy doing his first AFF Jump. He was very nervous in the plane, you know the typical student showing emotions.

In the bar that evening he told me that it scared him a lot but he did a couple (don`t remember how many) base jumps in norway before and for some reason I belived him.

What do you think, how likely does someone enter BASE without skydiving experience?

alex

I met a guy at the potato bridge in 01 that was being taught base with no skydiving experience. He was being taught by way of static line...no freefalls on any of his base jumps until he had so many jumps. Then saw him at BD 02 and he had over 100 basejumps, still with no skydiving. He's very heads up and has great canopy skills.

Yeah, it's possible to enter base with no skydiving.

My attitude is: "all basejumpers can skydive, but not all skydivers can basejump". Maybe they can't skydive well, but they can save themselves. Most likely, they won't kill themselves with low turns, either.

Blue skies,
K

I watched a guy with 0 skydives jump the potato in '04 as well. I can't remeber if he was SL'ed or went handheld. I think his was like a one time thing though.

I wholeheartedly disagree. What's your reasoning behind this, exactly?
cheers!
pope

I am curious what people think about this too. My husband met a girl at the Perrine making her first BASE with no skydives.I personally have been waiting to BASE jump until I can accurately land my canopy from 3000' before I have to at 200'.Plus I don't want to be learning how to fly a canopy and how to deal with a malfunction simultaneously 100-200' above the ground.It sounds foolish to me.

I imagine most people will tell you it's not a recommended way to get into BASE. There are other methods that involve significantly less risk, yet don't require disproportionately large sacrifices. It's simple common sense, tested by a select few that take the shortcut without dying.

So people that are making BASE jumps prior to skydiving, are they just doing it through a mentor? Because I thought any reputable jump course recommends xxx amount of skydives before BASE?

I made my first jump with another guy, also making his first jump, that, I found out afterwards, only had 3 static line jumps. Both of us were PCA'd off a 380' freestander. He only made the static line jumps as our 'mentor' told him to so he could gain some canopy experience.

Al

Do you think 3 static lines is experience?

I have seen it done a few times. 4 i think. 3 out of the 4 stood the landing up (perrine). but im with pope, i think they dont have as much muscle memory for canopy flying, and might freak out and crater on a low turn. i heard the menotr beating the no low turn thing into their head pre jump.

I not only have been advised to have prior proper canopy experience.But have heard suggestions that a balloon jump is not a bad idea.Just to get the feel of a subterminal jump.After my balloon jump I can say I'd like a couple more.I did go head low and was glad it wasn't a BASE jump.Why not learn at a safe altitude?

I didn't say they WON'T kill themselves making low turns, I said most likely. I've seen some jumpers (skydivers) with 1000s of jumps and have no canopy skills and/or have killed themselves doing low turns and did know better. I've also seen several "static line base students" that had better skills than those skydivers with 1000s of jumps. More heads up, as well. Can land in someone's backyard, sure.

One advantage I've seen the "base static line students" have, is they are by no means altimeter reliant, they use their eyes and judgment all the way. I've seen skydivers "forget" their altimeters on the ground and ride the plane down because they freaked out because they didn't have an altimeter. I've also been someone in the plane that's given up mine so they didn't ride the plane down.

I'd also like to add, I do not recommend entering base with no skydiving experience. I'm just saying that I've seen it done and work out safely. I also have recommended to several new base jumpers at BD to take the water if they didn't think they could handle the landing area. You can dry your gear out a whole lot sooner than that femur heals.

When I started base, I was able to land proficiently and consistently in the peas. No, I didn't have 200 jumps, either.

I 100% with u on this one

i had like 56 skydives.... i think the magical number needed is 55 . SO I SENT IT !!!!

Man I remember some years back in Twin. There was a Twin area local who BASE jumped without skydiving and also pretty much refused to even go over the DZ the other side of Boise and do FJC and Static course. His name was Jack (something) can't remember last name. We told him many times it would be smart to do some static's for canopy practice but he never went and did any skydiving.
BASE jumping he only did Rounds in the water. I think he thought that was safer for him. I lent him a old square cruzlite for a day once to do some water landings and see what squares were like. Sometime later It was his 100th jump and he was hungry to get it off. The winds were nuking. He took his Round and went anyway and drifted in over land and just pounded-in. He got all busted and broke-up bad. I think that was his only landing on hard ground. I really doubt if he even new what a PLF was.
.

Skydivers suck at BASE jumping! Too many small canopy jumps. If you want to be a great BASE jumper always jump 7 cell fattys. Also canopy control means everything and canopy accuracy means squat when your landing in rocks. Good luck sky jumpers!

granted its from this totaly kaput moron, but i completely agree. little parachutes do very little for BASE. if anything. Jesse Hall is KAPUT.

I did not think, that this is so common.
If I would start BASE, I would be glad to have some skydiving experience, but thats only my personal opinion...

Thanks for all your replies!

alex

And what does that mean for someone without any canopy experience?

3 inches of riser input, 5 of toggle, straight up / down with toggles quickly, slowly up / down with toggles, etc.

What if the student tries a minor input to avoid a particluar landing and gets insufficient response, and then overamps . . . . ending up with . . . . a low turn.

What if? ? ? ?

And what if they BASE jumper gives the same toggle input on their skydive gear that they do on their BASE gear????? Typically they are jumping higher performance and smaller canopies (not always but more often than not).

I have seen the reverse many times. Where they give their BASE canopy the same input as their small elliptical skydiving canopy.

Lets look at some parallels:

1 - talk
2 - hold hands
3 - kiss
4 - make . . . . love
5 - get real weird

Can you do this out of order? Yes. But I bet if you try 3 first, you'll have a 180 hand strike most times!!!!!

1 - crawl
2 - walk
3 - ride with training wheels
4 - ride normal
5 - race

Can you do this out of order? Yes. But I bet if you try 5 first, you'll have a 180 barrier strike most times!!!!!

1 - walk
2 - snow plow
3 - beginner slopes
4 - inter slopes
5 - advanced slopes
6 - extreme skiiing

Can you do this out of order? Yes. But I bet if you try 6 first, you'll have a 180 rock strike most times!!!!!

1 - aff / sl / tandem
2 - canopy control course - BASE prerequisites
3 - fjc
4 - continued mentoring / coaching / instruction from qualified person
5 - ... lots of things
6 - sick mofo aerials on bad ass jump site

Can you do this out of order? Yes. But I bet if you try 6 first, you'll have an object strike most times!!!!!

In the end, you are an adult. If you care about what you should be doing first, then I care, If you don't, then I still share your sentiments.

The people I'm talking about don't have small eliptical canopies...they have big, fat, clunky F111 7 cell canopies and are being taught to land with accuracy. Learning to fly backwards, fly in deep brakes and sink into where they want to be. NO RADICAL TURNS! They know how to do flat turns, fly with risers, land with risers...skills that most skydivers don't EVER learn. The mentors involved are some of the most experienced basejumpers in the world.

Blue skies,
Kaye

I don't know about you, but I have had to do some pretty radical turns on many a BASE jump. For example do a 180 degree turn after SL from 200ft. Or a 270 from 300. A fringe few may say that is not radical, but for the majority....


Where do you get this info from? I think there are more skydivers that know and practice these techniques than you give credit for.

I am not saying you can't teach a non-skydiver to BASE, but... There are certain things that skydiving teaches or re-enforces in you that 99% of non jumpers do not have. Everyone can not think they are that 1% and are above everyone else, that just puts the rest of us and the sport at risk...

I forgot to mention, one would have to know their deathcampees, and make sure that they WONT freak out and turn low. you cant be sure that a moron AFF student wont toggle whip their navigator 260 at the last second because there is some other moron student walking through it in his way. (um, guys, it pretty much the same parachute, only difference is the radio. and i hear that the radio is on some deathcampers as well) a few and I have said before, training someone is 50-70% who they are, they rest is muscle and executive memory.

Ya, and I'm a 'Radical' Dude with a radical attitude with a radical hair style that is living and radical life style. Is being Radical better or worse than being 'Extreme ?
I think the Radical low altitude turns in BASE that leroydb id talking about a learned technique in,Controlled Flat Turn using deep brakes.
Radical turns in skydive and BASE are not that Radical when done right. They might Look Radical but if they are taught and practiced in a correct and controlled manner. The turns are GTG and proper canopy skill.
Skydiving and BASE both do share/have. the 'Radical' toggle Stab. The 'Radical' stall and pound-in. the 'Radical' rear-riser ass-skid. and last but not least. the 'Radical' 180 low-hook turn. Sharing the same ill-prepared canopy techniques in two different canopy environments and disciplines.
The way I hear it is. 'Radical', Skydivers and BASE jumpers Ass's will occupy and fit into the same hospital bed and wheel chair.
.

46

one of our easterpigs had 43 when he did his 1st base at NRGB BD97...he was also the youngest jumper that year...18

No you haven't. Let's be honest here...A static line BASE jump doesn't really take any skill at all. I'd say a bag of dog food proved that pretty well. You can't possibly think that someone who has successfully deployed, flown, and landed a (any) canopy of any size 1000 times will be less prepared than someone with ZERO time under a canopy to make a S/L (or any other) BASE jump.


I don't get it. What sport are you talking about here? Altimeters have no place in BASE jumping. BASE JUMPING IS A DIFFERENT SPORT THAN SKYDIVING! Anyone who DOESN'T use all their senses to navigate themselves safely through the landing EVERY time should be bowling.

It helps to have previous skydiving experience before starting BASE because:

1. You begin to learn to manage the type of endorphin rush you need to do QUICKLY in BASE.

2. You gain INVALUABLE knowledge and understanding of flight characteristics of DIFFERENT canopies before throwing that caution to the wind and hooking your 280 into the talus.

3. It gives you an opportunity to take the time to learn about BASE jumping and apply/practice your skills in a practical setting.

4. It gives you a first chance to decide if BASE is really what you want without screwing things up for everybody (I define that as getting injured or going in on a BASE jump--it makes us ALL look bad).

And Jesse:
in relation to this post, you are being sarcastic, right? What do you see as the definition between canopy "control and canopy "accuracy?" They're two different parts of the same fucking thing man! How do you expect to land ACCURATELY in rocks if you have no idea how to setup to do that? What about in varying wind conditions? At different speeds? With a blown toggle? On rear risers?

Canopy time is MUCHO IMPORTANTE no matter how you stack it up.

[Jess-I know you're probably just shit-stirring, but just in case...]

pope

I hope someday I can be such a "god" like you...NOT!

You haven't a clue of what I've seen over the years.

You're obviously full of yourself and think you have some right to blaze people when you don't agree. F*UCK OFF!

In continuing with the question of Time in skydiving before getting into BASE, I thought I would offer my experience and thoughts.

I got into skydiving because it is cool (I'll probably get flamed for this) with no real intention of getting into BASE. It is cool, and I still love it.

At about 200 jumps and 2 years in the sport I got excited about BASE and really wanted to get into it. I thought that I was ready. I talked to some locals and eventually decided (on my own) that I would wait. I am glad that I did. I know now that there is no way that I was ready. This is just in terms of something I call maturity in skydiving.

Sure, I was young at the time and immature in other ways, but I needed more time to mature in the sport. To experience some fatalities, see what can happen to peoples families and lives and make a decision if BASE was worth it for me. For me I needed around 600 skydives and 6 years in the sport to (what I think is) mature in the sport. The biggest thing for me was time in the sport.

As far as preparation in in skydiving, I didn't do as much as I would have liked, but the more you can do the better. Having to do it again, I would have put at least 100 jumps of a large F-111 7-cell, focused every jump on BASE related things (accuracy etc). I also would have gotten in to crew.

Just some thoughts of mine.

Andrew

so, are we being sarcastic here?

everyone knows I am the only BASE god out there.

and its not called a 'god', I am a jedi. a jedi Master.

 

You're absolutely right. But what does that have to do with ANYTHING?

I don't recall ever "blazing" anyone in this thread...chill out already.
pope

That's a personal attack.

Please review the forum rules, specifically:

1. No Personal Attacks.


Consider this your one warning.

I'd just like to clarify some things for you there Kaye.

You might be special ... Kaye but Pope is God, and not only that, Pope is my idol and I do not even have idols!

If I ever get the question, dude, do you like to be reborn? The answer will be, only if I can be reborn as Pope. Otherwise I’m fine thank you very much.

PerFlare – Groupie

Maybe my memory is going to sh*t, but I seem to remember Feral telling me he had only two or three skydives when he did his first BASE jump....

No Way! this is so disappointing Per--All this time I've been trying to grow my hair out to Jesus length (quite unsuccessfully, BTW) to emulate MY own Jesus-figure, "PerJesus."
Just 'cause you cut it off doesn't mean you don't still have loyal followers PerJesus.

your humble servant,
pope

Hey, it's Pope Chris

Why would anyone want to attempt BASE without prior skydiving experience? I had ~35 to 40 skydives when I did my first jump, a 600 foot cliff. If I was more experienced with skydiving and canopy control I wouldn't have been injured on BASE jumps 101 and 133.

Sometimes you end up over lots of rocks, nothing but rocks... You need to control your canopy so you come in softly a top a rock like your hopping from one rock to another, because theres is no little grassy field to land in accuratly. I see people run out there landings all the time, get a canopy you can stop all motion with one foot off the ground. You will be able to land on rocks in trees on hot girls where ever you must. That is why control is more important than accuracy. Although when you can combine the two you become Jedi like Calvin!

And what percentage of BASE jumpers learn those skills?

When will they start making these canopies?
Take care,
space

I started to jump at 16 with no skydives and n tandems. I had 8 BASE before my first tandem and 15 before my static line course.

What is your analysis?

This is semantics. You're saying the same thing I have been--which is that accuracy is a PART of canopy control! Maybe what we should be saying is that what's most important is having the EXPERIENCE under canopy/canopies in order to gain that control you speak of.
And to be less subtle than Space, it's the pilot, not the canopy that controls (or doesn't control in many cases) the landing, including accuracy, approach speed, and approach angle, (all within the limits of the wing).

$0.02
pope

like that talus at the bottom of the really really big rock?

I agree, but I think everyone has over looked another group of people that transition well to flying BASE canopies (that have no skydiving experience). Those being PG pilots.

Speeking of paraglider pilots, does anyone know if any PG's fly without the chair thing. Just a regular parachute harness? I'm guessing the main reason for the chair is lower wind resistance and so you don't get tired of holding your legs up, but I saw a guy stall his wing on a TV show the other day and it appeared that him being in that sitting position is what lead to his broken back. It was a 15ish foot fall and it seems like it wouldn't have been that bad if he could have plf'd.

I believe the harness is reclined for comfort (PG flights can last hours). So your sitting not hanging. Most modern harnesses have a butt pad to help reduce compression fractures. It would be hard to PLF even under a BASE canopy if you stall the canopy close to the deck. Wouldn't it? I've seen people bury the breaks swing out in front and the canopy stalls, the person it belly up parallel to the deck with not enough time/distance to recover. I don't think a different harness position would change that much. Then again I'm not familiar with the video you mention.

learning how to skydive is a godd idea. altho it is not nescary to learn to jump . I would not change how or what i did, but there are some dissadvantages to not learning how to skydive first. it would pose no problem if you jumped ideal subterminal with open landing areas like some pt's and the perrine the entire time, but if you want to jump biger terminal cliffs with more technical landings (I am not saying it is impossiable) but it is much safer,easier,and all around smarter to learn to skydive.

everyone who askes me about learning to BASE jump I tell them the same thing most of you do... learn to skydive first. most people are kinda dissapointed because i was the 16 yr old who learned with no skydives. they were expecting me to say that they should go for it and then offer my services.

i have flown with BASE harness. it works, but it is for comfort, and wind resistance. and back protection. and other reasons i cant think of.

its harder to fly a PG with weight shift (how they are flown) in a stand harness. so, its just not that fun.

I have flown a wing with my BASE harness, but the risers connected to the hip rings. its really weird, but you can weight shift stear.

the sitting position makes it so the pilot can impact with his but OR his legs, you can be standing in your harness.

the plf is good thing, but does not save everything, i mean, my flying partner said that i PLFd on impact. maybe it helped. i dont remember

Wow....
I`m still waiting to have somebody like you as passenger :-)

alex

That maybe so, but "pure" (i.e. no skydiving experinece) PG and hang glider pilots will not have any body awareness, so beyond S/L and PCA, much still needs to be learnt. You can't take a PG pilot with a couple of PCAs and no skydiving experience to a terminal cliff, for example.

well, you could. its been done a few times. I have seen video. it looks ugly. really ugly. terminal handheld is scary looking.

ask 460 about terminal hand held...

You might be waiting a long time. I don't think there are too many people like that out there. Just a hunch.

From what I have seen from Clairs site, she has done some terminal cliffs and from it she seems have done quite well in exit and landing (although one shot, I dont know if its her or not seems very dodgy on exit and choice of jump)..... although I am really against her entrance to the sport... the above seems to be proved wrong by Clairs example?

Just making a point here........... even if I think that Clairs entrance to the sport makes me sick.....It does not make me as sick as your recent condescending views that you seem to have recently taken on board with your new found personality of a BASE jumper...

Remember where you came from!

I went to Norway last year and did a bunch of jumps, I did learned how to skydive before that. I also had a few 1600ft antenna jumps.

I learned to jump fom watching Radixs thenI bought a packing video and a rig off DZ classifeids
it was cheap easy and im not dead yet. i never even took a FJC

Well congrats... You owe Jimmy $1000.00 for saving you $1000.00 on a first jump course. he wants it in $20's

thanks

no way he ows me 20 bucks taht vdeo had no naked chicks in it

I agree that a terminal cliff would be poor choice for those people. However it doesn't pay to be a skydiver until you reach terminal. You don't get allot of dead air exits in skydiving (unless you jump allot of balloons). Such a person could go their whole base jumping careers and never do a terminal anything. After enough well excuted PCAs, they might go handheld and work there way to longer delays. Is that not what skydivers do?
Hey why bother skydiving (you could get hurt before you actually BASE jump) just go to the tunnel. That would takecare of the body awareness stuff.
Now just sit back and wait for a flood of paragliding tunnel rats!

[perks ears up to say something]
Awww forget it. that horse is beaten, dead, rendered and sold to burger king.

Terminal air skills are not the only thing you learn while skydiving that you do not learn from paragliding.

For example, how many times have you experienced a parachute opening while paragliding? Understanding (and more, feeling on an instinctual level) your opening is a survival skill in BASE, and one that is "practiced" by the much slower openings in skydiving. Paragliding doesn't give any applicable experience.

I'll say it for you pope.

laird, your philosphies on skill development (and the relevance and usefulness of transferable skills in other parachuting related activities) shows a total lack of understanding of the sport you are commenting on.

I would not recommend skydiving for you.

edit to remove personal attacks ~TA

I agree that paragliding does nothing to prepare you for opening shock. I also agree that "understanding your opening is a survival skill in BASE". That skill can be acquired on none terminal jumps were heading performance is not a big safety factor (TF for example).
I don't mean to belittle skydivers who learned to BASE jump (thats the route I took). Nor detract from the serious risk of jumping. What Im trying to say is that there are others who adapt just as well to BASE that are not skydivers. Never said its the route option I would take or recommend, simply stating that it is done. Im sure it will continue.
Im sorry pope and TVPB if this somehow makes you feel a little less special (rest assured you are special). You might want to consider that sometimes your experience is only useful to you, and that your way is not the only way.

BASE is all about luck

some time one get's delt a good hand

and sometime's you get a crapy one

it's all luck, skill has nothing to do with it

so there's no reason to learn to skydive first

if i didnt know the poster, i would worry. and you would say that wouldnt you?

Oh wait...thats a personal attack. Sorry, I apologize and I take that back.

Not quit as subtle but it worked for you, lets see if Tom bans me or both of us. It'll probably be just me since I'm sure he might know you and might share your point of view.



Pope is a big boy let him speak for himself.


edit to remove personal attacks ~TA

No worries, no offense taken. Your constructive feedback has been taken on board. I really appreciate it.


My mummy yells me I am special. So you don't have to worry too much about my feelings. Thanks for considering them anyway.


All experience is good experience. What you do and learn, can help me, and other people. Good and bad.

r.e. "your way / my way" - Exactly. I personally think that skydiving is useful, as is paragliding, rock climbing, rope swinging, etc.
By no means is my way the best / most ideal.

Yes. People have BASEd without skydiving. We all know that. Use the search function on this website and you will find lots of previous discussions on this. Can it be done safely? There are a million variables that you need to consider - making one blanket statement that one way or the other is acceptable is not ideal without considering a lot of factors in isolation and together. Each circumstance is different.

But when it comes to a general recommendation, Skydiving IS beneficial for a prospective BASE jumper.

You mentioned wind tunnels. They provide great value for money for freefall skydivers.


You're right. Why bother doing any training? Just grab a wingsuit and camera, find yourself a major underhang, take 10 colleagues with similar experience, throw some aerials, have a good time.....


edit to remove personal attacks ~TA

That last statement was kick ass! I would pay to see video of that party....

I bet it would look something like this...


...or this...


...or this...

Tom, Jason,

You are actually having a fairly useful discussion. Let's avoid side tracking it into random, useless personal attacks.

Thanks!

I made unfair assumptions Tom A. and I want to publicly apologize.

Moving on.......

This post was started I believe questioning how likely it is that someone starts BASE without skydiving first. No one has really answered this question. Who are the people that see the most newcomers? Manufacturers? mentors? So how many students are you taking on that do not have skydiving experience? I would guess this is rare, I would also guess it is even more rare for those people to not skydive at some point.

It seems there are several groups of people that are getting into BASE these days.
1. Those with varying degrees of skydiving experience. There seems to be a generic consensus that this is the best way to prepare for BASE (because of obvious similarities).
2. Those who have skills that might prove beneficial to BASE jumping (but who have no skydiving experience). This group for whatever reason feels capable of learning the skills needed to BASE jump in the BASE environment.
3. Those who have no skills that carryover to BASE jumping. Hard to imagine this group even existing. I can think of only one instance, so maybe this should be thrown out as a group and recognized as an anomaly.

How is this information useful? What will this tell us? What can we learn from it? I have more questions than answers.