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Same Song & Dance . . .
Back in the early '90s an otherwise competent BASE jumper was schmoosed and bamboozled by Connie Chung, of CBS News, into participating in a piece on BASE jumping. He took a CBS film crew to a local site and let himself be filmed jumping and acting like a typical BASE jumper . . .

When we found out about it we read him the riot act mainly for his jeopardizing such a long term site where thousands of BASE jumps had been made since the early '80s.

We then forgot about it until it aired a few weeks later. It turned out the hook in it, and what Connie Chung was after all the time, was to complain how the rescue of "extreme" sport participants was born by local taxpayers and it was time for some type of regulations to be en-acted. Our BASE jumping friend played right into things by acting all gonzo and sort of nuts about his jump. Snippets of his behavior is spliced into another interview of an official tallying up the costs born by the public when things go wrong.

Now that same contention is being put forward again in the case of the lost Mt. Hood climbers.

http://www.latimes.com/...ll=la-home-headlines

For myself I think a free and wealthy society should fund its "lunatic" fringe as from madness sometimes comes the biggest truths and achievements. Or else what are we? And do we want to put up barriers to any human endeavor?

I don't mind them using a bit of my money to look for those three guys on Mt. Hood, and you shouldn't either . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
 
I hate to sound like a shit but I never understood what people were makeing such a big deal over. This was not an unusual occerance. I don't know why the media made such a big deal out of it. Don't get me wrong it sucked but there are deaths like this every year. Normaly they don't get more then a blurb. I'd like to say that it's nice that people are seeing what the rescue teams do and the effort that they will expend to save lives but with the way they ran with it this kind of back lash is envitable. It might have been best if they were just left the anonomus heros they have always been.

Lee
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
Now that same contention is being put forward again in the case of the lost Mt. Hood climbers.

well, of course there is an outcry!

that story was all over the news for DAYS. the press sought to stir up the public. they effectively created the issue.

people who fail while knowingly push the fringes should not get that much press. afterall, isn't a high failure rate expected?

as for the rescue expense, a line must be drawn somewhere. if not, why buy car insurance? it is only a question of where. someone must determine if it is reckless or inspiring...
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
It bothers me too that only a few people like yourself see thru the media hype and realize their self proclaiming ratings driven agenda. Godspeed to the "lunatic" fringe...
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Re: [RiggerLee] Same Song & Dance . . .
Yeah I'm with ya. Being a climber I've been battered by friends and family the past couple weeks.

The whole thing is silly. Not to mention I've heard many reports of how those guys were experienced, one of them having spent time on McKinley etc. I have come to find out that two of those guys had a lot of "guided" experience. As in they have been on multiple guided expeditions.

That doesn't count for shit in my opinion. That would be like me saying I'm an experienced BASE jumper, when in reality all of my 6 BASE jumps have occured off of Spans under the watchful eye of a mentor.

The problem is. . . . .as NickDG related to. . . .that the media always gets the story wrong.Whether it's BASE, or skydiving, or climbing.

They would love us to think that these guys were world class mountain climbers that got into trouble on Mt. Hood of all places, just so they can say "See! Mt. climbing is too dangerous. Even for the 'experienced' climbers! And it's a terrible burden on the taxpayers when something goes wrong."

The fact is the media fucked this whole story and got alot of the facts wrong. Sound familiar?

Those guys were not the deeply experienced climbers they were made out to be. At the very least not prepared for the task they were attempting with the weather window they had. My opinion. I won't get into the specifics of why I think that.

But now, just as in BASE, the media will run stories of how "extreme" sports are selfish and a burden to society, instead of telling the whole story.

Nick's title for this thread is well suited.

Cheers,

JP
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
I'm going to strongly disagree.

Society has no obligation to foot the bill when shit hits the fan for BASE, climbing, etc.

BASE (and other extreme sports, even though I hate the term extreme)is/are all about personal responsibility and accountability, and to shirk away from expenses caused solely by our personal selfish endeavors is grossly irresponsible.

If society is to pay our bills, then society has every right to regulate our activities.
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Re: [HydroGuy] Same Song & Dance . . .
>>I'm going to strongly disagree.<<

The bottom line is everyone in a civilized society deserves rescue and medical care, regardless of how boneheaded they are, or if they can pay the tab. That goes for the guy who burns himself cooking dinner and the guy who has a 180 and crashes into a tower.

Once we start deciding who gets saved and who doesn't based on the activity it becomes a slippery slope . . . and who makes those decisions? Is dropping a frozen turkey into a pot of boiling oil any lamer than mis-rigging your BASE rig?

There are places in the world that are way more enlightened than we (USA) are in this area. Look at New Zealand, a country that probably couldn't find two couch potatoes to rub together. To them pushing the limits is a normal part of living. And when Kiwis pay their taxes they know it goes into helping anyone that needs help, no matter what they were into - we should be more that way . . .

The real problem, here in the USA, is medical care is an overpriced behemoth. It's time for some out of the box thinking. There should be publicly funded medical schools for anyone who wants to go. And those new doctors should agree to some length of service in publicly funded hospitals that charge 7 cents for an aspirin and not seven dollars.

Oh, gotta go now, the American Medical Association Swat Team just pulled up in front of my house . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
>>I'm going to strongly disagree.<<

The bottom line is everyone in a civilized society deserves rescue and medical care, regardless of how boneheaded they are, or if they can pay the tab.


Much as it pains me to disagree with Nick, I have to agree with Kurt on this one.

I'd much rather that I pay for my own rescue and health care, and that I get to decide what I do that might require them.

Any time you ask society to pay your bills, you give society the right to stick it's nose into your business. I'd rather pay my own bills and have society keep it's nose out.

Just in case anyone is wondering, rescue insurance is available here (the last time I asked, which was about 4 years ago, this insurance covered BASE).

Most Umbrella Policies will also cover rescue costs.
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Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
I'd much rather that I pay for my own rescue and health care, and that I get to decide what I do that might require them.
so if you became unemployed or financially destitute and could no longer pay for your insurance, would you then quit BASE and if not would you refuse medical care if you had a 180 and busted yourself up.
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Re: [jumpnjoecutaway] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
So if you became unemployed or financially destitute and could no longer pay for your insurance, would you then quit BASE...

I probably would, yes.

In reply to:
...and if not would you refuse medical care if you had a 180 and busted yourself up.

Whatever happens, I would face the consequences. Isn't that what BASE is about?

Part of that is having the opportunity to live in a society that foots the bill for my stupidity. I'll let sleeping dogs lie, but if one day they'll awake I'll find insurance elsewhere.
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Re: [jumpnjoecutaway] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
I'd much rather that I pay for my own rescue and health care, and that I get to decide what I do that might require them.

so if you became unemployed or financially destitute and could no longer pay for your insurance, would you then quit BASE...

Yes, I think I would. At least for as long as it took me to get back to a place in my life where I could take responsibility for myself. The couple hundred bucks I pay each year for my umbrella insurance isn't very much. I figure it'd take me a couple of weeks, tops, to make the money. Either that or I'd forego my next Toxic pilot chute and pay for a year of insurance instead.
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Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
I think that most of us agree that we should take responsibility for our own actions.

The point here is that in a civilized world, society should do what it can to help people who's lives are in immediate danger. I know that I don't want to live in a place where society can help save someone's life, but won't, because the person can't pay for it or doesn't have insurance.

How many ambulance drivers do you know that won't scoop someone off the asphalt and take them to a hospital even if they don't have insurance? Or how would you like it if an EMT is standing over you while you're unconscious and bleeding out but he won't help because he can't find your insurance card?

Let's leave the worries about money alone until after the lives have been saved. And then we, as red-blooded Americans, can litigate until our heads fall off.

Or we can just get a national healthcare system that saves lives without pointing fingers instead of spending all our time and effort on building a 700 mile fence on a 2100 mile border.
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Re: [MyTwoCents] Same Song & Dance . . .
Whatever happens, I would face the consequences. Isn't that what BASE is about?
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Re: [Ten48] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
Let's leave the worries about money alone until after the lives have been saved.

Worrying about them just a tiny bit before you go out for an adventure can save you a lot of headache and heartache if things do go badly.

Having a very simple insurance policy has saved me literally hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of expenses in BASE accidents (primarily just one accident). I'm very, very happy that I got the insurance in advance so I had one less thing to worry about when I was in the hospital. That also applies when you are laying on the talus busted up, or hanging off the side of the object.
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Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
I'd much rather that I pay for my own rescue and health care, and that I get to decide what I do that might require them.

Any time you ask society to pay your bills, you give society the right to stick it's nose into your business. I'd rather pay my own bills and have society keep it's nose out.

---------------------------------------------------------

This is true. A very strong point.
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Re: [Ten48] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
The point here is that in a civilized world, society should do what it can to help people who's lives are in immediate danger. I know that I don't want to live in a place where society can help save someone's life, but won't, because the person can't pay for it or doesn't have insurance.

it's called "facilitating."

the government safety net encourages some to act more recklessly. many already avoid working because it would not pay enough to leave government assistance.

many in the US are constantly trying to "rig" the system. they'll spend much more energy avoiding some rule than just going along with it...

now, do not take my comments as a enthusiastic endorsement of the current medical system in the US. it is incredibly flawed. I just disagree with where people look for answers - to others. I've seen seriously obese people suffer heart attacks, and then complain that the doctors failed to return them to perfect health.

no system will work until people take advantage of the simple ways to assume responsibility. i.e. Tom's umbella insurance policy or the $5 tracking device for those guys up on Mt Hood...

cultures that encourage responsible behavior are far better candidates for enhanced social services.
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Re: [Bigwallmaster] Same Song & Dance . . .
Living in the area, the story was inescapable for several days ... unfortunately I'm pretty (and coldly) cynical about the media's motives. Unsure The only reason that I can see for the media to have touted the guys as being "experienced" and hacing their gear along was to keep the fantasy that they may be alive, which kept the story alive. If they had said early on that these guys were toast ... no story, no hundreds(?) of dollars per second for the view of the chinook helicopter at the summit of Hood, etc. They didn't wish to get the story right, their desire was to have a dramatic story and the ratings that went with it, period.

For the thread, I'm not a BASE jumper, but if I couldn't afford ins I wouldn't skydive. It really doesn't bother me that my tax dolars go into searches like this, but for me I need to pay to play.
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Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
Worrying about them just a tiny bit before you go out for an adventure can save you a lot of headache and heartache if things do go badly.

Right. I agree with that statement completely. I don't think anyone here is arguing that we don't need or shouldn't need to have insurance. It's a great idea, even if just to protect your personal finances.

But the point of the article that was the topic of this thread is that the media and "public" get into a big uproar over what they perceive as being "too risky" and "too taxing" on rescue services. Their take on it is that we should outlaw all things THEY perceive as being risky and/or let those who partake in risky behavior perish - stand by and watch them bleed out. "Let's get a webcam out there so everyone can watch!"

Nick's point is valid - who decides what's too risky? What do we outlaw? Who do we let die? The BASE jumpers? The mountaineers? Grandma walking to the corner to get a loaf of bread? (She shouldn't be going out alone at that age! Too risky!)

Let's stop worrying about what's too risky for you, me, or grandma and go out and save some lives that are in immediate danger. When the climbers (or jumpers or grandma) are safe, we'll try to figure out how to pay for it. Hopefully for the climbers personal finances, they looked ahead enough to pick up some sort of insurance. Just like grandma.

Part of a modern society is losing the barbaric attitudes. Part of the society *I* want to live in allows people to make their own decisions rather than writing thousands of stupid laws.
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
The bottom line is everyone in a civilized society deserves rescue and medical care, regardless of how boneheaded they are, or if they can pay the tab. That goes for the guy who burns himself cooking dinner and the guy who has a 180 and crashes into a tower.

Once we start deciding who gets saved and who doesn't based on the activity it becomes a slippery slope . . . and who makes those decisions? Is dropping a frozen turkey into a pot of boiling oil any lamer than mis-rigging your BASE rig?

I never said refuse rescue services or medical treatment to anyone...but in the end, you should have to pay for it. It is part of the responsibility we must all accept for our actions.

And if you can't pay for it monetarily, then you should pay for it in civil service. Like the WPA or CCC. Hell, make the people work on rebuilding services in the aging National Parks...

This thread could rapidly degrade into speakers corner issues though.....
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
 
I'm actually heading up to AK in May of 07' to climb Denali. At permit and check in time, the NPS Rangers up there interview each climber and go over their gear with them, to make sure they are adequately prepared.

The only reason they do this is because Denali is ruthless and a ton of people would be unprepared if they didn't. Despite this, anyone can get a permit to climb Denali, regardless of their gear or experience level.

Since the NPS is doing gear checks and interviews before climbers access the mountian, should this get them (the NPS) off the hook for any rescue costs in the event of an accident? What would be the argument against requiring all climbers to have rescue insurance before heading up?

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but. . . . . . . could mandatory rescue insurance for BASE jumpers be used as a selling point to the NPS when it comes to access permits?
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Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
Here is some food for thought on everyone's table.

If there is a big plane crash in the middle of lets say Kanas, and millions of dollars are spent in the search and rescue effort. Does the victims, airline, etc foot the bill for the efforts of hundreds of people? Personally, I pay my taxes and expect them to be used to either save me or someone else. Not to go to corrupt A-holes on the hill. I may not have a lot experience in this, but I have to agree with Nick on this.
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Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
Hi,

You crazy americans, you never cease to astonish the rest of the world, do you?

BS/BD
956
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Re: [] Same Song & Dance . . .
It continues to baffle me that so few people understand how insurance works. I tried to resist, but I'm afraid I have to take this speaker's corner.

Insurance works on a premise; that in a group of people only a fraction will suffer from X but that it is difficult to impossible to predict the distribution of said fraction..

Two points need stressing:

  • Only a fraction will run into X.

    If everybody would suffer from X, it would be impossible to buy insurance for it. The reason is economical; insurance companies would go bankrupt.

    To illustrate, let X be hair growth. Imagine a completely bald species where one in every hundred individuals can suddenly develop some sort of rapid hair growth. I guarantee you, there would be an insurance company that supplies razor blades.

    In our world, everybody grows hair. So we pay for our own visits to the barber shop.

  • Second point; it is difficult to impossible to predict who will suffer from X.

    If X were entirely predictable, non-carriers of X would have a problem sharing the cost. Let X be menstruation. Wonder why there is no insurance for tampons? It's too obvious what part of the population will need them at some point.

    For the logic inclined; the previous point about fractions is just a consequence of this one. If the fraction is equal to the whole population, predictability is trivial.

Next, it is important to realize that social healthcare through taxes is just a form of government regulated insurance.

I'm not saying whether it's a good or bad thing (that's outside of this discussion) but it's important to realize that social healthcare works on the premise outlined above, just like insurance companies do.

Let us look at some scenarios:

  • The plane crash in Kansas.

    Insurance makes sense here (for most countries, that would be through government regulated taxing) because not every plane that takes off is guaranteed to crash, nor is it predictable (a priori) that this plane headed for Kansas would crash.

  • A baby born with severe handicaps.

    Insurance makes sense here, since we can not accurately predict which babies will or won't be affected.

    But it gets interesting now. What about the mother who smokes, drinks and uses drugs during her pregnancy? Suddenly we tweak the predictability factor, and insurance starts making less sense.

  • What about a life-long smoker developing lung cancer?

    Predictability becomes easier yet again, and insurance gets complicated. Already we see countries toy with the idea of giving non-smokers priority on waiting lists.

  • What about BASE jumping?

    Depending on the group, predictability can be easy or difficult. Take the entire population as the group and it's very easy to predict that BASE jumpers will be hurt on a BASE jump (this is important) more often than non-BASE jumpers. In other words, predictability is high so insurance makes less sense.

    Take only the subgroup of BASE jumpers and it becomes harder to predict who will get hurt badly and who will only hurt his pinky finger. Predictability goes down significantly, and suddenly insurance becomes a useful tool again.


Anybody who still agrees at this point that BASE jumpers need to be saved at all cost fall for a stubborn myth; that unconditional support for fellow human beings is a moral necessity and practical possibility.

Let me attack the moral necessity first...

You can save a life today by donating hundred dollars to your nearest third-world-country charitable organization. Perhaps some of those organizations are inefficient or corrupt, but it is easily provable that a hundred dollars can save a life somewhere with relative ease. I'm also convinced that you don't need that hundred dollar to stay alive for the next little while.

So why don't you?

If you think government regulated insurance (through social healthcare) makes sense, then why doesn't this argument extrapolate to a worldwide insurance? After all, you couldn't predict where you were born.

Perhaps unconditional support is a moral obligation on some ethical scale (Peter Singer has some interesting articles about this), but not on mine per se, and I don't see the world around me disagree.

Now let us consider the practical reality of such unconditional support. The fact of the matter is, our healthcare systems are already under enormous amounts of economic stress. But hear the outcry of the tax-payer if the goverment asks for more to boost healthcare. I predict this will only get worse. We have no other options but to transition to a world in which healthcare is applied conditionally. Additional support will have to come from more and more privatized insurance.

And unless you send a hundred dollars to Africa (with apologies to the continent) and agree to pay more taxes, you'll have to come to terms with this.

...including making sure that you have appropriate insurance for BASE. If you live in a country where social healthcare takes care of you, congratulations. Let sleeping dogs lie and consider yourself lucky. But please don't judge other countries; insurance (including the one your goverment supplies) has no emotion, and justly so.
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Re: [MyTwoCents] Same Song & Dance . . .
In reply to:
  • What about BASE jumping?

    Depending on the group, predictability can be easy or difficult. Take the entire population as the group and it's very easy to predict that BASE jumpers will be hurt on a BASE jump (this is important) more often than non-BASE jumpers. In other words, predictability is high so insurance makes less sense.

    Take only the subgroup of BASE jumpers and it becomes harder to predict who will get hurt badly and who will only hurt his pinky finger. Predictability goes down significantly, and suddenly insurance becomes a useful tool again.

  • In the real world, it doesn't work out that way. Because there are no "BASE jumping rescue insurance" policies, jumpers are lumped in with a group of other people who take risks that may or may not be related. For example, in a rescue insurance group, you've got folks who might need rescue while hiking or climbing. In a larger umbrella policy group you get lumped in with people who may be looking at libel lawsuits, or personal liability from a slip-and-fall in a rental property.

    In other words, taking the entire population as the group, and a variety of risks in one insurance policy, you cannot generalize that BASE jumpers are more likely than average to invoke the insurance. Who says that BASE jumpers are a higher risk than slum lords, for example? Comparing BASE jumper to high altitude mountaineers gives another, equally difficult, risk calculus.
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    Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    In the real world, it doesn't work out that way.

    Although it does "work" that way, you're right that it doesn't "work out" that way. What I mean is that although the logic behind predictability holds, insurance covers more than just BASE jumping.

    You give the example yourself; instead of limiting it to just BASE jumpers you take a slightly larger group (those that have rescue insurance). My original statement translated to this group still holds:

    Those people that put themselves in places where they might need a rescue will require a rescue more often than those people that do no go there to begin with.

    In reply to:
    In other words, taking the entire population as the group, and a variety of risks in one insurance policy, you cannot generalize that BASE jumpers are more likely than average to invoke the insurance. Who says that BASE jumpers are a higher risk than slum lords, for example? Comparing BASE jumper to high altitude mountaineers gives another, equally difficult, risk calculus.

    I never said anything to that extent. It's precisely why I wrote (emphasized): " BASE jumpers will be hurt on a BASE jump (this is important) more often than non-BASE jumpers. This is what makes insurance work. The math along a single line.

    Of course you are totally right that most insurance policies don't just cover X, they cover X, Y, and Z. As such, it becomes much harder to speak about who suffers increased risk and who doesn't. That's why we have discussions about such things, instead of black-and-white obvious absolutes.

    But I think you and I will both agree that on average BASE jumpers are more taxing on the healthcare system (from wherever it is funded) than my healthy-eating exercising philatelizing neighbour.

    Which of course could put us on a slope where we discuss the societal merits of BASE jumping and how we are pioneers of human flight inspiring millions around us. Or the other slope where we condemn all smokers and grease-eating lazy television addicts.

    Bah...

    All I'm trying to say is that people should take responsibility for their own actions, and only consider it a bonus if somebody else jumps in and helps. Last time I checked, the universe didn't owe me anything.
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    Re: [MyTwoCents] Same Song & Dance . . .
    I dunno, dude. Collecting stamps can be pretty dangerous.
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    Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
    Good point, I should call the NPS on his ass...
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    Re: [MyTwoCents] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    You can save a life today by donating hundred dollars to your nearest third-world-country charitable organization..................................And unless you send a hundred dollars to Africa (with apologies to the continent) and agree to pay more taxes, you'll have to come to terms with this.

    Yes, that's absolutely right. Here in Africa we have to deal with a lot of crap. The first attached picture addresses one of my main issues. Anybody interrested in helping out can PM me and should there be enough interest I will open a Paypal account and call it: "pocisadumass".
    I will personaly ensure that every cent donnated is spent on this issue and not deviated to fund AK 47's for some obscure central African war.

    The second is an insurance proposal for free climbers. Lots of small print there though.

    Ooops, I just accidently glued my eyelids closed with the cement for the B-17 kit I'm building. I hope I'm covered...
    desperate.jpg
    freeclimb.jpg
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    Re: [NickDG] Same Song & Dance . . .
    Are you saying we should pay more taxes? Tongue
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    Re: [MyTwoCents] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    So if you became unemployed or financially destitute and could no longer pay for your insurance, would you then quit BASE...

    I probably would, yes.

    In reply to:
    ...and if not would you refuse medical care if you had a 180 and busted yourself up.

    Whatever happens, I would face the consequences..

    So.......if you HAD a rescue you would go out of your way to make sure every penny of taxpayers money involved in said rescue was paid back by you?!?! I call BULLSHIT............. If you were lying there bleeding and dying I don't believe for one second you would just quietly die with a stiff upper lip because you wanted to face the consequences. You would be screaming for help, for your mommy, for someone to save your ass if they could. Brave talk but utter bullshit, sorry buddy, gotta call it when I smell it!

    There is definately an american feel to the responses. I agree with the slippery slope idea. Where do you draw the line??! Really? The dumbass unprepared hikers, climbers, car accident victims, drug overdoses, alcohol poisoning, raging case of herpes, teen pregnancy and on and on..............

    I will happily contribute to the rescue of those seeking adventure with my tax dollars. Thing about BASE is it is soooooo small, a tiny blip on the radar as far as cost to the public although when it gors wrong it gets all sorts of coverage but that is a different issue. I feel pretty fuckin'good about living in a country where everyone gets rescued and everyone gets medical attention without insurance. Even those who are not citizens of this country!

    About the paying for yourself so no regulation is forced upon us(Tom's Point), again far more american than anything. I don't think your insurance covers you if you are breaking the law is this correct?! The same would apply here in Canada if we had insurance. If I am out doing legal jumps off our legal cliffs and something goes wrong we deserve to be helped just as any human being does and we will be. Equal treatment and I dare say after speaking with some rescue types that they are somewhat more happy to rescue those that are out pushing the limits a bit than those who are just too stupid to bring a rain jacket or proper foot wear.

    Happy Hucking in 2007 everybody!!!
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    Re: [SabreDave] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    I don't think your insurance covers you if you are breaking the law is this correct?!

    Mine does. I had a very specific conversation with the underwriter about that. I layed out a scenario and asked him what they would cover. The scenario was an illegal building jump in which I damaged the building by breaking a window to exit from. The underwriter had no questions at all about rescue and liability (if I hit a car under the building they'd pay for that no problem). His real concern was the cost of the broken window (since I'd broken it intentionally). He had to go do research and check with higher ups, then got back to me and said that yes, they'd cover the broken window too. He even had several examples of cases in which they had paid out on roughly similar circumstances (for example, they paid out to cover the damage to a car that had been keyed by the teenage child of an insured party).
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    Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    I don't think your insurance covers you if you are breaking the law is this correct?!

    Mine does. I had a very specific conversation with the underwriter about that........ He had to go do research and check with higher ups, then got back to me and said that yes, they'd cover the broken window too

    Well that does surprise me alot! And the premium for this kind of coverage was reasonable? Do you know offhand the difference between that kind of coverage and what it woul have cost you for the basics as a Joe Couch-er that takes very little risk in life?

    I thought most if not all policies had the right to with hold if you break the law, participtae in a riot, act of war, act of God etc etc etc................ INteresting, I stand corrected
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    Re: [SabreDave] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    So.......if you HAD a rescue you would go out of your way to make sure every penny of taxpayers money involved in said rescue was paid back by you?!?! I call BULLSHIT............. If you were lying there bleeding and dying I don't believe for one second you would just quietly die with a stiff upper lip because you wanted to face the consequences.

    What part of "consider yourself lucky" and "let sleeping dogs lie" did you not understand? If your government's tax and healthcare system allows for BASE help, by all means use it. After all, that is what you pay taxes for. But don't be surprised if non-BASE jumpers feel their part of those taxes can be spent better elsewhere.

    I don't think you're interested in paying more taxes, are you?

    In reply to:
    You would be screaming for help, for your mommy, for someone to save your ass if they could. Brave talk but utter bullshit, sorry buddy, gotta call it when I smell it!

    If you knew me, you'd know that my mom would be the last person I asked for. Furthermore, the last time BASE got me stuck I didn't cry. I called my groundcrew, asked them about if a rescue was possible, and gave them a message for some close friends in case anything should go wrong.
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    Re: [SabreDave] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    And the premium for this kind of coverage was reasonable?

    Around US$200 per year, with a limit to the coverage of US$ 1 million.


    In reply to:
    Do you know offhand the difference between that kind of coverage and what it woul have cost you for the basics as a Joe Couch-er that takes very little risk in life?

    It's the same policy that Joe Coucher would buy, so I'd say it costs the same. The requirements are that you must have a certain amount of homeowners and auto insurance to qualify, and that those policies must be used first for incidents that they cover. The vast majority of people using these types of policies are using them to cover catch-all "risks" like defamation suits, or damage to other's property, or liability from rental properties.



    In reply to:
    I thought most if not all policies had the right to with hold if you break the law, participtae in a riot, act of war, act of God etc etc etc.........

    Sure they do. They also have the right to pay out in those cases. But they're legally required to tell you if they will or will not, in advance, if you ask them a specific question. Paying out in those cases probably creates very little additional risk to them (since the number of those cases is very small) but gives them some additional marketing power when they try to sell you the policy.
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    Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
    Are you talking just rescue insurance? Or medical also? I think I want you to hook me up with your insurance agent.
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    Re: [Ms.sofaking] Same Song & Dance . . .
    In reply to:
    Are you talking just rescue insurance? Or medical also? I think I want you to hook me up with your insurance agent.

    It's general liability insurance. It is _not_ health insurance, so it won't cover medical expenses. I have separate health insurance.
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    Re: [TomAiello] Same Song & Dance . . .
    OK, that makes more sense.I thought you had access to some double top secret insurance none of us knew about.I think it's a shame the cost of insurance in the US.And although we all need it, I have to agree with Nick about the slippery slope involved in judging ones activities when they need help.If insured that's great, if not they still need help.