Basejumper.com - archive

So, lets throw out what gear, in our opinion, is best. and for what reasons.

Best Container-
final generation Vertigo Warlock

it is a simple, lightweight, and functional.
it has a good flow over the body, the rig is thin.

Best Canopy-
EASILY the BlackJack with ZP foreskin.
Best Glide ratio, good Vents/valves.
the F111 feels very nice to the touch.

Best Risers-
Asylum inverted 3 rings.
the lack of grommet passing through the lower part of the riser is very attractive. it seems stronger. the riser while packed covers the stringy thing to protect it. and being that that string is your life, thats a good thing.

Best PC?
Of course considering there may be different preferences for different sizes...

Best Container
First generation Warp III

Best Canopy
EASILY the Cruiselight or a Unit

Best Risers
Type 17

I like the Huck-It, for obvious reasons. Also the APEX DP has some nice features




** You're probably right, but I'm poor.

Maybe you need to get out more. Most, if not all "integrity risers" are built that way.

aye, i do need to get out more.
i thought Asylums were the only ones like that.

It would also probably be useful to list your experience with each piece of gear.

Quite honestly, I see many, many people who swear that "Gear X is the best," but turn out to have made 95% of their jumps on that gear. Without a basis for comparison, what makes them form that opinion?

Many people strongly hold the opinion that whatever gear they own is the best, and turn out to believe that because someone else told them that when they started jumping, so they went out and bought that gear, and have never used anything else.



Perhaps something like this:

"Of my 350 jumps, 150 were made on a Rig A, 100 were made on a Rig B, and 50 each were made on a Rig C and Rig D. I liked Rig B the best because of X, Y and Z, compared with Rig A, where I saw H, J and K."

For what it's worth, I definitely agree with your thoughts on the integrity style (reversed) risers. That little white string is by far the most fragile part of your life support equipment. Anything that protects it is a big plus in my book.

The best gear out there is, with out a doubt, the gear you build for your self. Nothing else even comes close to matching the feeling of standing at the bottom of an object, alive and intact, wearing your own freshly unpacked design.

Amen, Keivn. NOTHING, beat the feeling of using a complete peice of gear that I put every stitch in, from the legstraps to the top of the pilot chute......

Maybe. But a person could probably buy a new rig from every manufacturer out there, for what the cost of the equipment and a "NEO" (to copy the pattern from) container would be. ........wait......did I just say that.

I think a far more interesting comparison would be for people to list what they think is "the worst currently produced BASE gear."

Aye.

Ok, of my 200ish BASE jumps (i dont log)

150 were on a dagger 222 and a warlock
40 on gargoyl and 260 Blackjack/ZP
10 on other random rigs.

The Blackjack is magic compared to the dagger, flick, rock draggon, when it comes to flying safely i think.

The Warlock is sweet. i wish i could have afforded another one before they were 'phased out' and replaced by a new 'improvement'.

i guess i dont know anything about gear that i havent jumped a lot. i was just trying to start some shit. as usual.

Tom, where can I get my hands on one of these "Rig B's?" Based on your report, it sounds like a Rig B is the way to go. Do you know how they handle H, I, or J?
What is a Rig B going for these days?

Thanks!

Not a 100% related, but valid (in my opinion none the less). Did an outdoor First Aid Course the other day and the instructor asked what the best First Aid kit was. I rambled on about all the niceties of what to have and he just looked at me and said: "Its whatever you got". No point flying XYZ and wishing you had QWERTY - tough luck!

Mick

[reply That little white string is by far the most fragile part of your life support equipment. Anything that protects it is a big plus in my book.
I know the amount of force on 'the white string' is very small, however isnt there a better (more durable, stronger, etc..) substitute for the little white string. even on a skydiving rig, there has got to be something better besides a shoe lace on some watered down steroids. but what do i know.

sure, a softlink thru your 3rings on jumps you don't intend to cutaway.

I was thinking of something not permanent (not PLANNING a cutaway) but something more durable. More like the yellow lines that go thru the white string. (I know they are not pliable enough, but closer to those than my shoe laces.)

L-Bars

Although I really don't see anything wrong with 3 rings. There's hardly any force on that "shoestring" if the system is properly built, so I don't see how it would wear out.

define "better?"
stronger?
easier to manufacture?

what problems do you wish to overcome?
real, or imagined?

remember, "the white string" has been used for decades. if there was a serious issue, surely it would have been corrected by now.

The best gear out there is what I currently jump--an old (but modified) Vector with no reserve and a Straocloud (sp). I do use a 9' bridle and a 42" PC. The harness is the BEST on the market even today.

It works great - I've only landed hard 4 times out of my 11 BASE jumps at the Perrine.

I love this sport!!

It wears out from being dragged against the ground when you stow the lines. There has been at least one actual failure of the white line from this (which was caught prior to jumping) and at least one failure of the white line in use (which was possibly from this as well).

The white line has failed once and put someone into the hospital. Why not look for a superior alternative? Remember that the original system is engineered to work in a skydiving environment, and one of it's main criteria is functioning in a high G cutaway (which doesn't apply to BASE).

Wowaaa!

Ok, point taken then



True. Integrity's would even have a tendency to hang up...

L-Bars?

Just cut away with the hook-knife

What are the advantages of a Blackjack with ZP foreskin (yes my brain does work that way) over a vented Troll. Specifically when dealing with low objects (fast inflation needed) on the one hand, and object strikes on the other. Thx!

My Best freind has a troll with mdv, and we just got back from a jumping trip in moab.

I think that there is not much difference in safety of lower objects, they both are realiable for opening stuff. but the black will outfly a troll, or any other BASE canopy for that matter. the ZP foreskin (i think that way as well) gives a lot more than people think.

understanding the way a foil can be effiecient, one loses the most effective aspect of a wing by making the topskin poris. so, zp is magic.

For slider down jumps, it may not be the best idea to necessarily choose a canopy with the most flying distance capability. Is heading performance the cost for flying distance? Packing with ZP topskins are more difficult and the material itself due to its lower elasticisty may result in a higher chance of an off-heading opening. There are only a few objects where flying cross country is required when jumping slider down. The vast majority of slider down objects have landing areas near the bottom of the object. If anything, consider that the bottom is where you'll land if you have a recoverable malfunction.

So what you're telling me is that the ZP doesn't influence inflation and the staying inflated of a canopy?

I'm awesome, I know everything and the best base jumping tarp is the Fox without any of those vent deals.

jt Holmes
(the best most awesome base jumper in the world) and famous too.

bah. what the hell do you know? ....physicist...

not sure what you're asking. i'm saying ZP seems more appropriate for big to medium walls where object separation are more likely and distant landing areas are common. ZP on low cliffs seems dangerous due to the higher chance of a bad off heading opening.

That's what I was thinking.

What I was asking was: does a ZP Blackjack inflate faster than a troll (for example) and does the ZP foreskin help on keeping the canopy inflated during a wallstrike.

My powers of deduction tell me the ZP fabric has little or nothing to do with the inflation part of a jump.

I disagree.

I have a reasonable sample size of jumps on standard Blackjack 260s.

I have just replaced my 2 standard Blackjack 260s with ZP option Blackjack 260s.

3 BASEjumps on the ZP option so far and I believe it opens and starts flying (and being controllable) even quicker than the standard Blackjacks did.

of course 3 jumps is not a reasonable sample size and maybe I have forgotten how fast my standard Blackjacks opened when they were brand new, so give me a few hundred jumps on the new ones and I will have a more valid opinion for you.

ship me a brand new standard Blackjack 260 and let me jump it back to back with my ZP option Blackjacks for 2 years and I will tell you for sure

it really is just about the only way to know

I have heard that the ZP option Blackjacks not only have a higher forward speed in full flight, but can fly slower than the standard Blackjack also.

I will try to find out and report back. More available flight range is only a bad thing if you do not fly the canopy in the correct part of that flight range for your given situation.

I think some people are confusing foreskin (only 30% of topskin is ZP - from the nose up to B lines) that CR offeres with full ZP TOPSKIN that Apex/CR both offer ... I would GUESS (As I have no jumps on anything but full F111) that ZP foreskin is alot less prone to offheadings then full ZP topskin.

anybody ?

Got lots of slider off on a Mojo 260 with full zp top skin.
Pretty much all my off headings were bad body position (You're already thinking "oh shit" in freefall).
One that was difficult to explain. It was my packjob but we swapped rigs for a 2 way off a bridge. My buddy ended up with a 180 and full line twist almost landing on a canoe and some guys working for the bungee jumping operation. We put that one down to the strong cross wind...

Does the better glide come from the increased forward speed and the same vertical speed, or the decreased vertical and the same forward? (compared to other canopies of the same size at the same loading)

Is BlackJack trimmed at the maximum of glide ratio (does a small rear riser input result in decreasing GR?) or you have some range on rears to improve GR? For what it's worth, vented Flik has a terrific GR, but it seems to be at its max in default trim. Imho, it's better to have both "up/down" options than just "down"...

I have approx. 100 jumps on blackjacks with the zp topskin and have never experienced more that a 90 degree off heading slider down and I only remember that happening once. About 90 percent of my jumps are within 5 degrees of perfect on headings. In my exoerience the ZP does not increase the number of off headings. I have never jumped a blackjack without the zp. hope that helps.

Bryan

CR only offers the ZP foreskin (not full ZP topskin) on their Ace and Blackjack canopies. They offered a full ZP topskin on the Mojo, but at present the Mojo is not being produced, although there appears to be significant demand for it, so perhaps they'll decide to restart production.

I've videod several exits in Moab of people with Blackjacks and tuned right it appears they were pretty much dead stop on opening until the brakes were popped. My Flik out distanced them all from the same object, however, there are still many variables including delay, heading, and intentions.

The Flik tends to out distance most canopies on any given jump. I did have a rather bone breaking landing flying in rears recently though. So as Yuri mentioned it may be trimmed near the limit. However, I don't have a problem with it stalling unexpectedly using rears or toggles.

A blackjack with zp is not tuned for best glide, about 3 or 4 cm of rear riser give it best LD.

The ZP may effect packing, but i do not think it does anything to heading performance.

well tuned DBS blackjacks with foreskin i think, from what i have seen, open, and inflate faster.

The reason only the first 30% of the canopy is ZP, is because it is really the only part that matters. (to an extent) the idea is to keep the airflow connected to the parachute, and if it stays well connected in the fist meter, then its pretty good.

i have a couple Mojos i'd be willing to sell or trade towards a new ZP BlackJack.

here is a picture of the worst piece of base gear i have ever seen. yes, 1 inch different in length. i also didnt like the bizzare pins on the side of the toggles.
i got them with a rig and the t shirt in the picture.

Maybe they were built that way to correct a built in turn on a Fox, who knows.

 

I'll second that. With around 180 jumps on FOX's,45 jumps on a Flik, and 35 jumps on a Troll DW, all in the 285 sq ft range I can say for sure that the Black Jack/ACE will out glide them all. They are all good canopies, but as Tom Manship once told me, "You have to pick the canopy that best suits your flying style. The Black Jack with the ZP rocks! I have not noticed any issues with off headings because of the ZP upper skin.

Ah yes. I remember that one. It was a shipping mistake made by the now infamous Dirty Dave while he was working in my shop. He took one short riser intended for a smaller customers order and sent it out with a standard riser as a standard riser set and then sent the other small riser and one large one to the smaller customer. The other customer was more understanding and allowed me to correct the mistake with out making a big deal out of it. Of course, Dave, took no responsibility in the matter. I was out of town at the time it happened and learned about on DZ.com and after I had fired Dave for being incompetent.
Instead of allowing me to make the situation right, the person who received the incorrect risers in the U.K decided to use the incident to slam me and my work.
It is reasons like, asshole employees, and arm chair rig builders like you that led to my desision to no longer build gear. It is simply not worth the head ache and the money is certainly not good enough to put up with it.
As to weather or not you care for the design, that is neither here nor there. They are a proven design with many thousands of jumps to their credit.
I have over 800 rigs out in the world. The recent fataltiy at bridge day was the first and only fatality to date on any NEO.
Do you have a track record like that? How many rigs have you built? Please show us your designs. I'd love to critique them here in a public forum as you have done.
In closing I'll offer this. Show me a man who has made no mistakes and I'll show you man who has done nothing at all.
Kevin

I thought either this is photoshoped by a buddy of yours taking the piss or there's some rational explanation because this is just too big.

So it turns out it was the second...

The one about the built in turn made me laugh though.

I have seen your rigs and I would jump them anytime without any doubts.
And because a mistake like this could happen (I agree that it should not...) I always check and dobble check when I get new gear. And even I you don't check it specialy, if you pack your rig and do not notice that one riser is longer then the other you probably deserve to get hurt on a jump...

what you are saying is not true, you did not learn about it on dz.com. this thread is the first time i have posted anything about the way i was treated by you. maybe you are thinking of someone else? at the time i sent the risers back to you with the neo which had dents in the d rings after 16 jumps as well as a number of other design and quality issues, you told me you didn't even send me risers and also accused me of sabotaging the rig on purpose and trying to rip you off, you took 3 months to change the chest strap to the size i ordered and return it to me. this is the first time i heard the infamous dirty dave excuse. so you were paying him, you trusted him, he let you down and then refused to take responsibility did he?, well well, how did you feel when he did that to you kevin?

from the comfort of my armchair i can see 2 rigs from basic research and after nearly 150 jumps on each i could not possibly be happier with the gear or their service.this thread is about the best gear and i answered katzurki asking about the worst.

in closing ill offer this. every time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer.

I disagree. Your contract with the manufacturer ends the moment you leave an object. It is spelled out that way in most contracts (i.e., you can return the gear for a full refund before you make the first jump on it), but on a deeper level, every jumper is ultimately responsible for his own gear.

I'd hate to see the day a gear manufacturer gets sued for faulty gear.

That said, nothing stops you from preferring one manufacturer over another based on previous experience of course.

Personally, I have no problems with the rare cases that a manufacturer sends out faulty gear. As Kevin points out; we're all human and we all make mistakes. Nobody stops us from sewing our own gear after all. What is more important to me is how a manufacturer handles such incidents, and that's to me what separates a good manufacturer (which most are) from a great one (which Asylum is... )

This shit should be moved to a new thread....

Get over it. You were inconvenienced, you don't like BPR. Lesson learned then. But don't get all up in Kevin's shit about taking personal responsibility for his employees and then make a statement like:
Don't be a hypocrite. This is BASE jumping. At the end of the day, only YOU are responsible for what happens to you when you jump. If you had hooked up those risers and jumped them, had a gnarly 180 and bashed you against the wall all the way down to the talus would THAT be Kevin's fault? Of course not, because YOU would have been the idiot that didn't COMPLETELY check ALL your gear out before you jumped it.

Is there anyone here that trusts their BASE/Skydive gear manufaturer so implicitly that you'd hook it up and jump brand new gear straight out of the box without a complete inspection (excluding of course the folks that build their own rigs...)? I'd just like to say for the record that IMHO, if you do, you're an idiot.

There is a point soon after your gear arrives, that the manufacturer's "responsibility" ends. CUSTOMER SERVICE is a different issue altogether, and that is up to the individual business owner, but don't confuse Customer service with responsibility. In other words, you're wrong. Every time you jump a parachute you're taking your life into your own hands...PERIOD. The manufacturers responsibility is through as soon as you step off.

Whatever happened between you and BPR is over and done with. Move on and go make a jump!
respectfully,
pope

well yea alright...i do feel sort of bad now i finally got my chance to vent about the service,i dont think im completely wrong as this is the first time i have roasted kevin in public, the service and the rig was so bad and the thread topic did seem to be apropriate.
all your other points i have taken and yes you are right its all my responsibility and ill get over it now and i wont mention it on the internet again....my bad.

I had a cliff strike when use ing your neo I think it was your fault. Oh yah and I got a parking tiket the other day I think that was your fault as well Kevin by the way u ow me 45 bucks for the tiket

damn right magot, you tell him. make sure you get the money as well.

just to clarify , when i say "dealing with" i did not mean "responsible for". they are totally different things. when you jump a parachute you are dealing with the quality of all the materials used and also the design and workmanship of the manufacturer, every stitch they put in the system. which is not anything like the same thing as holding them "responsible for" anything.