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Just spoken to a friend out there at the moment, and it seems an Hungarian jumper has hit the cliff in freefall.....

Thats all I know....

RIP

Someone on the FBA forum says it was a hungarian beginner who took too long a delay at LM. Impact in the rocks during opening.

RIP

looks like this is going to be a record-breaking year

Apparently this would have been his second BASE jump. His first was a hand held off the same spot. When questioned about it, the two other hungarians with him got all defensive and adopted a "mind your own business" attitude...

His two buddies must be a bit dodgy to go and dispatch him off a rock on his first jumps ever... That's just stupid!

I was wondering how someone can over delay and impact the rocks at LM. The least you can do is track a little bit and over delay to impact the trees.

That's the second pull-up-cord-round-the-PC death and second beginner-in-Lauterbrunnen death this year.

If there are any people viewing who intend to start BASE jumping read this: http://hometown.aol.com/...e/base_fatality_list

- don't repeat the mistakes. It makes you look foolish if you do.

I think it's time for controlled access to the valley sites.

Mike

Do you have more info than the rest of us? I think you just implied that the Swiss fatality that Mac posted about was due to a pull up cord?

negative. there was a fatality in the UK i believe that was a result of a pull up cord around the PC.

edit> here you go. now YOU go read the list again.

#94 Paul Smith-Crallan, March 15, 2006
Tower Jump (600-ft electricity pylon)
Impact
Swanscombe, Kent, Great Briton
Age: 25
Paul, who was under the supervision of a mentor, is jumping this pylon for the first time. His mentor is known to teach his charges to use a packing aid when folding pilot chutes for stowed jumps. Apparently Paul did not remove the packing aid, which was a pull up cord, prior to jumping and on deployment the pilot chute failed to extract the canopy in time for full inflation. Nicknamed, "BaseMonkey" Paul was well liked and very enthusiastic about the sport. The lesson here is obvious for both mentors and students.

No, no more info than I've read here.

I meant that people are repeating avoidable fatal scenarios.

Two pull-up-round-the-PC fatalities this year and two jumpers dying on their second ever BASE jumps in the valley.

How sad is that?

Oh there are lots of ways you can do that on your 2nd BASE jump on LM .
You can go off unstable all the way-in. When you should try for separation from the object. You can go off stable and 'think' you are Tracking. When you are really not and go-in. You can go off and not Track & just smoke it to low on the pull and just go-in at line-stretch . You can go off stable with very little Tracking and fumble to find your PC handle and go-in. You can go off with no Track and just brain lock and do nothing all the way-in.
No facts will come of how or what the circumstances of how he went-in. Unless the other jumpers in the group chime in with the facts. Or there was eye witness from ground. So its pretty much all guesses and hearsay in this Thread on the facts.
-
The BASE gods are finally asking for some payments on a really past due account. Fuck it. We owe them, might as well pay up with a few unprepared and un-educated jumpers.
.

From the FBA:


Translated:

"Hello everyone

I just got back from Lauterbrunnen last night 17/11/06 at 6pm. I met a group of 3 hungarians at LM. I spoke with them and they were all euphorical about jumping here. From their speech and the briefing of the jump, I thought that they must have been quite experienced. Until the moment I saw one of the three with his pc in hand. I ask him what he is doing. His reply is that it's his 1st BASE jump. His friends seemed to be saying "mind your own business". They also asked him to come back facing the cliff after opening so that he could film their jump. I watched it from a distance with a friend. After exit we watched them and they scared us with their poor tracking abilities. After our jump we got on the road back to France. I hear of this accident through a girlfriend who stayed jumping with them and saw the accident. My best wishes through this challenge to the 2 hungarians and may the one who had bad luck rest in peace."

The last sentence was tweaked a bit since it doesn't translate too well.

if this info is correct..
so sad and so stupid !!..sorry to say this at the moment.
we dont care anything ..life is free ..uups..

RIP

take care
hannes

What a waste...

There are better ojects than a cliff for first few base jumps.
There are better places than LB for first few cliff jumps.
There are better exits in LB than LM for lower experienced jumpers.
LM is not a good place to go Handheld.


All of these things should be fairly obvious to anyone that does a little research or is an 'experienced' jumper.

The odd weren't being stacked in his favour...

School boy errors... that cost a life.

This is just another proof.

The Swiss Valley is NOT a place for unexperienced jumpers, ITs NOT a place fr them who does not track well.

This place kills more than any other place, cant some people understand that this is a place fpr experienced sub-trackers.

Most of the accidents in this valley is because of low experience.

Have the inteligence and manners to avoid this valley untill you get skills.

I recomend to jump bridges, antennas and overhangd terminal cliffs before. and at least have 50 jumps (rahter 100) before you enter the valley.

The more shit that happends there the closer we will get to closing the valley.

Im sorry about the accident. just another sad story. I feal for the family!

regards
/Martin
Team Bautasten Sweden

 

we have to stop it.
or others will stop us....

throwing a beginner off la mousse is manslaughter in my opinion.

True. But the questions are if he did do his research and if the other two jumpers were actually 'experienced'?

Therefore I think it's not so obvious at all. Not all of us are looking at DZ.com, have a group of BASE jumpers around them to learn from or know what we know...

It's a sad and unnecessary loss that should be a lesson for future jumpers. Now we only need to find a way to get the message across. Hopefully a ban won't be that way!

My condolences go out to family and friends of the jumper.

J.

research?
like finding cool looking jumps on the internet and then trying to mimic them?
that kind of research?

the evasive behavior of the 2 "experienced" jumpers would indicate they KNEW they were cutting corners.

it's sad that people repeat these mistakes. it lends credibility to Darwin...

Not at you wwarped.
I think this is an overdelay situation from the few observations posted. It may had not much to do with the site. That being said, I am against the practice of bringing beginners off of solid objects. Though I did back in the day. I only ask that we don't lose sight of what happened because we don't want beginners on advance sites. If he had an object strike because of insufficient tracking, Then let it be known. If he had an impact because of an overdelay, let it be known. One has to do with skill, the other, brainlock. Ya gotta keepem seperated.
take care,
space

Hey Tracy,
I was in the valley yesterday. I did not see the jump, we jumped before them. I agree with you that pulling to late or impacting because of poor tracking are two different things. But I think both of them have to do with lack of skills. It was the jumpers second jump, I saw them packing befor the fatal jump and what I have heard is that he did a handheld jump earlier. So I think (but of I don't know it, it is only an assumption) brain look was not the issue. La Mouse is a very dificult jump. BASE1007 said it maybe in a bit a harsh way but throwing a first jumper of La Mouse is the most stupid thing one can do. If you have to do a frist jump in LB do it from Yellow but NEVER from La Mouse or the Nose.
I don't know why these guys did that. I think eather it was massive wrong judgment, extreem stupidity or the just did not have a clue of what they where doing.
I'm afraid that accidents like this will continue. BASE is not the underground thing anymore. Every idiot can buy a BASE Rig, a ticket to Switzerland and find the exits in LB.
Today the media was in LB. I'm sure that if accidents like this continue the valley will be closed for jumping.

This reminds me that if I'm jumping with a group and someone is doing something I think is really dumb, I need to be quite vocal about it. Who knows, I might save a life.

Michael

The word research, that I quoted from LukeH's post, in this case would mean to find out everything about this site (there's a vast amount of information about this site available on the www) and the jumper would then have realized that this place is probably a little too advanced for somebody with his experience.

After that it's up to the jumper's discrepency and that of his mentors to make the right decisions.

However, as said in my earlier post, not all jumpers might be as well-informed as us for whatever reason. What could also be the case is that in his world or in his experience of the situation he and his mates might not have seen this as a big deal, simply because of different ethics and methods etc.

Not trying to say I support their ways, en contraire. But it might not be as easy as it seems for all people to know and do what we know and do.

As for the evasive behavior of the 2 "experienced" jumpers, 1.) "experienced", Has that been confirmed? Were they actually experienced? 2.) I am not so sure if they really KNEW that they were cutting corners. Perhaps you are right and they did, but in my experience with Eastern Europeans I know now that they behave/talk/react in ways that might sound like 'evasive' to you, but in fact isn't.

J.

The previous 'beginner' death this year was from Yellow O. Hand held 1-2 sec delay with an offheading opening. Bouncing all the way down from the top. Horrific to watch.

All jumps in the the valley are for experienced jumpers.

The signs at the exit point need to be changed to reflect this.

Agreed

J.

Me too

.

It just doesn't matter. ITs a solid object. Its underhang (in total) Its not terminal, and when yu hit the clif you wont escape it cause its positive.

Conclution. Its about the worst kind of cliffs you can find.

Just because LB looks like a Postcard it is still a F...ing hard core place if all you morons out there (including me) cant understand this then we will have more and more accidents in the Valley the our preacious Swizz Valley is as free as The Carlifornian Valley.

And hey!! its not even our valley it belongs primary to the Swissys. All of us get in there and rape their ground. No doubt people doesnt like to share spots anymore.

Be smart, be conservative, be nice and take another thought and you might just survive this shit.

Regards
/martin
Team bautasten of Sweden

From FBA


Translation:

"Rectification of the info regarding the accident, it wasn't a beginner, the jump he did with pc in hand was indeed his first at LM but he was doing it slider down to better film his two friends in freefall. During the last jump he was in a back track, would have turned around to dump and end up in the rocks."


Now this is a totally different story. It's very possible the guy could have been joking when he said it was his first BASE jump. There are still some things that disturb me but I'll shut up from now.

to be geeky...
it is virtually impossible to "find out everything about this site." it would entail setting up a multi-year research project in the valley, weather observation posts, etc.

obviously, the research should be to collect enough information. few new jumpers with whom I have spoken seem to understand the vast amount of information that should be considered. heck, one 10 jump wonder hucked his buddy off a ~230ft bridge at BD. it was the friend's first jump!

the only research that interests some is identifying the location. sad. unfortunately, publicity and online videos simplify this meager data collection.


valid point.

Yeps 50 - 100 jumps before entering the vally is not a bad idea .

Must be fair : my 8th base jump was staubach then the nose and after that LM . Butt al with good tracks and good delays .

If i new then what i new now after 3 years in the sport ( and saw sevveral accidents in the valley , French end Swiss guy lately , ... ) i think i had past that jumps and get somme more expierence .

Most jumpers think is is verry safe out there ( Nice alti's , ... ) butt proven again it is not . Aspecially not for beginners .

Sorry guys butt after seeing the 2 fattal accidents on 1 weekend it is the truth .
Maybe yes it is time to do sommething about this . Butt who am i to say this .

My true condolance for the family left behind .

Dear All,

Please stop it, dont phuckin bullshhit and say stupid opinion untill you guys know the details from somone who was there and can inform the comuntity by fisrt hand.

The guy who died this saturday (name: Zsiros Csaba) was very experienced jumper with 490 Base jumps and more than 1000 skydives. He was the champion of the first Hungarian Base contest in 2004.
At the fatal jump from LM, he exited backwards, did his arial too long, and the time he started trackin was too close to the positive part of the wall. He started trackin, realized he is very close and pulled. He hit the wall during canopy inflation and probably died immedietly in impact. His canopy fully inflated, after the impact and he flied out to the landing, looked like his ok, but he landed dead.
The guys who he jumped with were also experienced jumpers, with more than 100 jumps (dont know exactly but surely over 100). The slider down exit was done by one of them, beacuse to film the other guys durin freefall, after opening. All of them knew very well what they are doing.
None of them speaks english at all, so who was there might misunderstood what they said on top and ground. The handheld guy was surely kidding with "first jump".

Take everyone the consequence for himself, and please next time for everybodies interest dont say stupid theories untill you knew exatcly what happaned.

He was a very good friend and amazing person. Everyone loved him so much. I cant find the word how deeply I am depressed, my heart is breaking.
Fly free Csabi, you will be missed forever.

Csaber

That's a totaly diffrent story then .

And a beautiful demonstration of the value of speculation and assumption; two pages of opinionated posts dedicated to something that didn't happen. I love these forums.



Edited for spelling

Absolutely.

The comments, speculation and assumptions here are wrong, wrong, wrong.

The hungarian guys were fun, polite, courteous and highly likeable jumpers, Csabi seemed a very experienced, and having watched his penultimate jump from the exit point at LM, i can say, very skilled jumper.

Language barriers undoubtedly have played a large part in propagating some of the misinformation posted here.

ian

Comments like this:


...and this:


...and all the crap TVPB has now edited out are absolutely fucking disgraceful and the posters should be ashamed of themselves. This man is not even in the ground and yet he and his friends are being publically slated by people who know fuck all about the situation. It's sickening.

Gus

I put a disclaimer in when I posted as I saw the potential for incorrect information. I also stated that my comments were based on the comments in the thread and not the actual incident itself.

I posted because there has been too many of these situations that have actually occurred in very recent times. The world does not seem to learn.

I deleted because the right thing to do was wait until real data / info was supplied. Upon rethinking, I decided that it was too insensitive and inappropriate to post in the thread concerned. I apologise for the timing of my post, the content and it's mistaken context, the fact that it is linked to the persons involved, and for posting in this particular thread.

But I don't apologise for the general philosophy behind the comments I made. Whilst they are most probably not relevant or appropriate to the incident concerned, on a broader level, they are appropriate to some segments of the general jumping community.

For those involved in the incident, and the friends and families of the deceased, apologies and my sincerest condolences.

For all others, Stay Safe.

Yeah, I think this thread proves that we all should first hear the facts and after that make our conclusions and post our comments on the incident. The fact here is that the Hungarians lost a brother and we should all respect their loss. Hungarians are cool guys and absolutely fun to hang around with.

Csaber and rest of the Hungarians, the finnish crew mourns with you guys, our condolences to family and friends !

The only thing that there is to say about this fatality (in my opinion) is that it again underlines the nature of La Mousse. It is high and you can take long delays but it is underhung. As it has being said in the list already in year 2001 "Just a few words about this site La Mousse. It is high and you can fly 9 to 10 seconds if you track like hell. But the pure vertical is not more than 6 seconds." Doing aerials off it leaves you with very small margin for error, from my point of view there are far more better suitable exits on the valley for doing aeros. I've done maybe 30 jumps off LM and with every jump I gain more and more respect for that wall, it's an awesome jump but it can be deceiving.

Fly free brother and everybody, please be safe in the valley (and everywhere else too) !

apologies. my comments were based on the original posts. several discussed having seen and spoken to the jumpers. those posts indicated that there would be no eyewitness reports posted here...

I later was corrected to point out that cultural differences/language barriers may have created confusion.

I feel for all those who knew him.

I hate that another jumper will be added to the list.
unfortuneately his knowledge, skill, experience, and likability may not matter if Swiss jumpers must fight to keep their valley open...

I also apology for the underlined bold part in my post. I based my coment on the post of the french forum which apears to be incorect.
However I stand to everthing else in my coment although it is now posted in the wrong tread.

Codolence to the family and the two friends of the dead jumper that were with him.
I have seen the eys of one of the friends after it happend and I never want to see this again... :-(

edit to add:
Sorry also for my english. I'm to lazy to use the spell checker...

who isn't


they were


Because you jumped to conclusions.


From that cliff. Yes. Perhaps he couldn't articulate in your language or to your understanding what he meant. How many reading this for instance could effectively communicate the fact that they are jumping an object for the first time in German? 'Mein erste springe' perhaps as you point to the exit point?


"Seemed" to be saying because you didn't understand their language and because you'd already made some very wrong assumptions which had negatively clouded your opinion of them.


I believe this is true, but with the right config, experience etc not an issue.


No comment. I wasn't there at the exit point. However, poor abilities....that's subjective. Poor because they didn't make the road?? the landing area?? the tree line?? clear the talus?? clear the ledge??

I'm not trying to bash the french jumper who posted or others who have piped in with their pennies worth, but a lot of assumptions were made there which were very biased and unfair.

A good man and by all informed accounts experienced jumper lost his life on Saturday, and many friends and family were left devastated.

Of course we all want to learn lessons from such a fatality, but at least have the foresight and decency to ensure you've attended the right class before you stick your hand in the air with an opinion.

ian

Yup... this is another standard DORKZONE.COM thread.... I cant believe all the BS that was posted on this thread before you guys really knew what happened. Maybe the speculation on this forum will finally diminish a bit after a few people have to swallow their posts... posting when you dont know didly about the situation is...........


RIP and my deepest condolences to the family.

Dan

...but that's the internet - the fault isn't with the people jumping to assumptions, but that they took the information on face value to start with.

What the internet community is good for: gradual knowledge growth through constant re-evaluation (e.g. Wikipedia).

What the internet community is bad for: accurate evaluation of very recent events.

People say it again & again: please wait until the facts are posted. I disagree. The only thing a forum is good for is speculation and assumption - and I don't think this is bad in itself, in fact its often entertaining, its just unfortunate that in our world the subject matter is often very emotive e.g. serious injury / death - I include BASE and skydiving in that, as the same thing often happens in the Incidents forum.

Oh well.

To Csaber and all other guys who posted after him saying that people have been speculating etc.

Yes, you guys are all a bit right. However, I don't think there is a real need to bash some people's post, whether they might have been misplaced or not (perhaps including my own, eventhough not a single line was quoted so far...).

First of all people are free to say and think what they want and post it (that's where forums are for), whether you agree or not with what they say.

Second of all, this is about a fatality and that's when emotions run high from both the people who post immediately before any facts are out and from the ones reacting on that accordingly.

Third point is that a considerable amount of the jumpers who posted immediately are actually local to the valley (including myself) and, as we all know, have seen fatalities happen here more than anywhere else. Not that they own the place or anything, but at least they should have the right to react, discuss and speculate about what happens in their backyard and actually so does anybody else (as long as this happens with respect to the deceased and his family and friends)

Last point I wish to make is that the largest part of the discussion (or speculations as you call it) as I read it was actually about throwing 1st-timers off these kind of walls. It is now a fact that it was not the case here, but it has been in the past and it should not happen ever again. I think a lot of the 'speculators' were making a point out of that, more than about the actual accident itself, which should be a reason for concern.

I feel very sad that another life has been lost in our sport and I hereby send my sincere condolences to the jumper's family and friends...

J.

I wonder how many incidents wouldn't be reported if it wasn't for "off target" speculating threads/posts.
Do you read anything, anything at all, that could be useful and instructive to anyone reading this thread?

Yes. Any newbie jumper might learn from this thread that the Swiss Valley is an advanced jumping site and therefore not suitable for him/her until they are more experienced. And even then it is a site to treat as technically difficult and with respect.

J.


Edited to add.

Absolutely.

This fatality almost mirrors Adam Gibson's.

First jump off a technical object. Decent experience but probably over-confidence on their skills or maybe what a human body can and cannot do. Instead of making a conservative jump with a strong launch and a strong track both decided to do an aerobatic start. Both started the track late, both struck the wall in FF.

I don't care how many jumps you have 1 or 1 million, when it is your first time off a new object that on top of being new to you it is known to be very technical, go easy, play conservative, see how far you can get, evaluate the side while in FF in max track, then you can get a better idea of what YOU can do and cannot do. Seeing other jumpers floating the exit, barrel rolling and successfully track away just few feet from the talus does not mean you can do it regardless your experience level. No two jumpers are alike, no two jumps are alike.

There are three things that will kill you in BASE: Inexperience, complacency, and bad luck, the latter is really the least of your concerns if you are fully aware of the former two.

We lost another brother and it sucks, the least we all can do is to learn something from this.

I cant believe you think this forum is only good for speculation and assumptions. I actually try to learn from hard cold facts and the opinion of people who have far greater experience than me. you just need to be able to sift through the BS and get to the real info.

I took from this, that it was at least his second jump from this object, maybe more, or this guy would have witnessed the accident as well.

Base Rigger.

I was present at that exit point on his well executed and uneventful penultimate jump. The French jumper posted that they were present on an even earlier jump when he went handheld slider down to film the other two. I'm pretty sure they made 2 of those jumps, which makes the fatal jump probably the 4th from that cliff - which invalidates your point on the whole.

However, the fact does still remain that many jumpers underestimate the positivity of the ledge and talus on this cliff and the actual lack of vertical to play with during aerials. On this you are perfectly correct.

Like i said, there are lessons to be learned but only if you ask the right questions.

This absolutely was NOT his first jump off this cliff. Let's stick to FACTS.

ian

I stand corrected.

How many junps did he have off this cliff?

Csabi, I met you in Budapest boogie 04, and couple of times in ITW. It was really privilege to meet you and all of hungarian crew. Lots of funny things were said...couple of Vodka were done...jumping also.
And now you are gone. So sad
Lots of power and good will to Hungariand crew, his family, Csaber, Andras and the others from the Finnish crew. We most certainly will have a little bit of Vodka for this. Cheers...!!!

Pete

I am with you on your post but I wonder if posting anything anymore means anything to anyone. I tend to think that the ones that listen are just reinforcing what they know to be true, while those that dont read the board... well they just don't care. Its akin to locking your door... It only keeps the honest, honest; if you want to break in, you will...

It is the people that don't care that will make it harder for the rest of us. and that is sad

OK rob...I read it everyday to I'm finally going to post again. Not that anyone wants to hear...(but I don't care)...

I'm almost as phucked up as Spacey (in the head) after seeing so many needless fatalities and being a part of so many rescues of dead BASE bodies and broken limbs...living to see crap like this substantiates my reasons to check out other things life has to offer...that said - here's my take.

After being in retirement for over 3 years now...reading 30 fatalities since DW...too many being good friends lost...to read about posts like this is very sad but inevitable in this sport. BASE generates so much excitement, people forget about the lethal nature of jumping from an object with a parachute. BASE will eventually either end your life or dramatically change it. People take this sport way too lightly. My advice (which may sound hypocritical after throwing 100 bodies off Kjerag) is to start slow...a pendulator, then a bridge, then a big (terminal) overhung cliff, then start thinking of other ways to potentially kill yourself with a parachute (that provide less risk).

Staldenflu is not a good cliff to do your first jump. I remember my first jump there, #234, with a ZP canopy (now there's a bad idea for a BASE canopy), a solo after trying to find the exit of this WAY overhung cliff I could see from the valley floor. That was my impression..."it's huge, it's WAY overhung, and it's perfectly safe!" On the contrary, it's 8 seconds to impact and requires a good track to get some distance from the cliff. A beginner should never consider this cliff...or any cliff in the valley...or any cliff at all!

Beginners should take it slow! I did and look what it got me, a broken back, a broken heel, separated ribs, facial lacerations...3 trips to the hospital in 5 different incidences - and I didn't even die! After jump #275 I found the more forgiving learning curve - no more injuries! I Didn't even see a fatality for the first 3 years...another good reason to push it hard! When you are a beginner, you see everything through beginner's eyes. Eyes that have very little idea of what they are looking at. Find a new epistemology...Listen to what the guys with hundreds of jumps are saying and don't think you're special and don't need to hear the steh crap they're saying.

Enjoy the camaraderie! The travel! The visuals! Start sensibly and learn how to get stable and get used to the overwhelming visuals before raising your bar. Enjoy BASE for what it is...don't take shortcuts, and have some god damn respect for the sport and the sites! Just because it looks easy and you're a skydiver with lots of experience doesn't make you an experienced BASE jumper! Learn from the mistakes of others. Read The List (thanks Nick!) and intimately understand each mistake...because that's what they are - mistakes! Don't be another statistic and miss the rest of this opportunity to breath easily...

Now that you've read my stupid lecture...I'm gonna go sit in an office so I can pay the mortgage...now that's living!

Seriously tho, sorry this jumper's family has to live through the horror. He should of had the chance to make 1000 more BASE jumps...

JJ

I don't know why I'm fighting this corner, but i guess it must matter to me so...

This thread is entitled Fatality: Swiss Valley and as such comments will be read in that light - as pertaining to the fatality on Saturday in the Swiss Valley.

Csabi - the jumper who died on Saturday - is reported to have had 490 BASE jumps or thereabouts which by anyone's standards ought to make him an experienced jumper (insomuch as he had 490jumps worth of prior experience).

I just thought that point is worth reiterating for anyone who cares about commenting on the facts in hand. Of course if there's anyone out there who'd like to vent in this thread about other unrelated subjects (maybe a monologue on securing your pilot chute to your bridle, or not using modified skydiving gear - subjects which equally have no bearing on this fatality) then i guess this thread (read soapbox)is as good as any.

ian

For me, yes that applies but not TVPB. Most of the people responding had a "if this is true" written in some form.

As for this whole thing, I would like to apologize especially to the two other jumpers. Losing a friend is terrible, and reading crap about him and yourself after that, well, if it was me I'd find it hard to accept an apology...

I would also like to apologize to the readers of this thread who have to sift through 2 pages of BS before getting any hard fact. I am responsible for starting this and you'd think that with all the time I waste on the internet lately I'd know better...


poc

This is one reason why it's called the dorkzone. I always regret posting here...

Apparently this would have been his second BASE jump. His first was a hand held off the same spot. When questioned about it, the two other hungarians with him got all defensive and adopted a "mind your own business" attitude...

His two buddies must be a bit dodgy to go and dispatch him off a rock on his first jumps ever... That's just stupid!

-----------------------------------------------------------

If this is factual then I fully agree. Seems like a no brainer. There's no way in hell I would jump that site. The question is: Why are some inexperienced jumpers making such poor decisions? Is it being driven by more expienced jumpers instilling false confidence in these jumpers? Or is it just an outright disconnect with good information?

I know my closest friend in BASE who has something over 200 or so jumps, would never assist me in jumping from anything other than a bridge or other very beginner level object at this point given my very limited experience.

With the constant internet and/or word of mouth discussions about the "Recipe for learning to BASE" as safely as possible, where is this disconnect coming from?

--------------------------------------------------------

Just got other info the thread about the decease being very experienced. Sorry about that. Drugs.

Hang on a sec! You have the balls to call this the dorkzone, but you don't even have the balls to show who you are.

People are free to discuss whatever they want on here and you can tell them what you think of what they said. But to call the whole forum a 'dorkzone' is slighty out of line. YOU are the DORK by doing that, in case you didn't realize. And I am now contiously making a dork out of myself to even spend time on telling you this.

My reason for posting on this forum is because I work offshore on oil-rig and I'm bored to death (don't tell my boss...). Also this particular thread is about my local spot. Everybody else has their own reasons so let them be and discuss with them what you like. But don't tell them what you think is right or wrong, cause you might be wrong you know.

J.

Damn, reading this back I realize I must be really bored...

I met Csaba in Hungary summer 2005 at the Base Contest, an experienced jumper and a great guy! I had a great time there, it felt like home with all the great hungarian guys. I know he will be missed by all who knew him and he will be in their minds forever. My condolences and sympathy to his parents and his great friends Csaber, Attila, Tomaz and all the Hungarian Base Crew (I'm sorry, I don't remember all the names).
You will be missed, fly free Csaba.

And may I say to all who filled up the first page and a half: Even if the story (who all you mindfuckers put on the forum) was true about the 2nd jump and blablabla.... who are you to say that it is stupid or give comments??? I think on a topic like this, you should only send your condolences to the people who are left behind with grief and a lot of sadness in their hearts! Imagine how it feels to read all this shit if you lost someone dear. I don't know who all this people are ( I don't want to know) but I hope they've learned a lesson in taking precipitous decisions and that they will think twice the next time they post something on a topic this delicate.

Goodbye Csaba
Nathalie
x

Perhaps I worded that wrong; it can only generate speculation and assumption - there are no facts, only what "someone said" (sometimes verified by "what someone else said").


I challenge you on the first, agree with you on the second. "Hard cold facts?" How do you know? You can only measure what you read on here in probability, its rare we get a truly hard, cold fact (just ask Nick how often he goes back and edits details on the list...). On the other hand reputation and experience bear a lot of weight here, and opinion is a valid & educational currency.


Agreed - although your subjectivity colours your results.

To all the Hungarian crew- Really sorry to hear about your man Csaba. ( met him and most of you at the boogie last year.)
Dan-the-Man.
To everyone else- stop fucking bitching!

Sorry for not saying this sooner but, my heartfelt condolences to the Hungarian jumpers their friends and family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my only apology in this thread.


I agree to some extent, you have to filter through a fair amount of useless shite on this forum to get some useful information BUT that's the nature of the beast. This is an internet forum not a news service!! This is exactly what it is for; speculation, opinions, discussion, information. It's all part of a process.

I personally think this thread has been very useful, the speculation at the start has prompted a quick release of more accurate useful information, the underlying motive throughout being concern! Concern for those involved, concern for the well being of aspiring jumpers, concern for the image and reputation of our sport, concern for the continued access to one of the most beautiful sites in the world. I think it shows a wonderful shared passion for our sport and as such I don't think apologies are altogether necessary.

That said, information gained is only useful if it is acted on....

That's all I've got to say about that.

Mike

[Also bored on an oil rig]

If you've been around base for a while you know who JJ is.

Condolences to the Hungarian crew.

Baxter.

Fly free Csabi.

My thoughts go out to his family and the Hungarian crew.

(Nice to hear from you again JJ)

"...but that's the internet - the fault isn't with the people jumping to assumptions, but that they took the information on face value to start with."

Well, true indeed. And then, that is the common complaint about media in general, reporting about base.....

"People say it again & again: please wait until the facts are posted. I disagree. The only thing a forum is good for is speculation and assumption - and I don't think this is bad in itself, in fact its often entertaining"

I totally disagree, sorry. There is nothing "entertaining" about speculation if you might hurt people's feeling which are already over sensitive after loosing a family member/friend.

Speculation leads to nothing. Factfinding will, if only people read and understand the facts. Then, and only then, if the facts can not explain 100% what happened, we can start speculation.

Condolences to the family and friends.

Ronald

A big thank you Csaber to clarify.

You and his family have my condolescences (I was in the valley that day, we all decided to stop jumping that day to think about him).

Also thanks to the fellow jumpers staying in the valley that they didn't talk to any media. We (Swiss comunity) had the worst written article in the history of LB in the Swiss Press (BLICK, stating that the thing behind base is to pull as low as possible to get as much adrenalin as possible and more bullshit) and luckly for us, no baser was talking to them to make things worse.

As was already the case in multiple accidents at LM, not depending on the level of experience (the wall doesn't change its shape with your experience level), one might think twice before doing multi-ways, arials, etc. at any spot...

Stay safe!
/t.

You missed a bit: "....often entertaining, its just unfortunate that in our world the subject matter is often very emotive e.g. serious injury / death"

I guess I didn't make it clear; I meant that forums in general are often entertaining, apart from in our case where the subject matter isn't... If you see what I mean...

I did not miss that part.
"unfortunate" 2me is an understatement.
Also, read my second paragraph. I think there is nothing to learn either from speculation.

Ronald

The BLICK Article.

Maybe someone can translate?

I thought you could translate it ...

The wuffo-journalist part in bold basically says :
He opens the parachute at the last moment. This time he wants to do it even more exhilarating. Wait a little longer

After that the farmer says that everytime someone goes in from that cliff unfortunately it's in his field.

Further in the text it also says that during the summer many jumpers step in his nice tall grass and damage it, and THAT MUST STOP.

Before people start firing again I'll first ask if anybody is actually interested in seeing the complete translation of the article? (I can tell you that it is not very nice)

Piifish did summarize it pretty well without mentioning the real upsetting stuff.

Let me know.

J.

Well...the subscript to the picture in the left is "They get their kick by pulling as late as they possibly can"

So yeah. That prety much sums it up.

condolences to the jumpers family and friends.

i must say that these fatality posts are starting to get to me.

i really hope i'll be able to go back and jump the valley this summer. really really hope it doesnt get shut down. that place is a paradise and my favorite place to stay and jump that i have been so far! lets be careful guys!

-grundleson

You (the jumpers) are like teenagers.... you are searching for your limts!

i think i lost my LIMTS at the bowling alley. why do they forsake me?

Well...duh! of course pulling low is the highlight of BASE you idiots! I'm not sure of the REAL facts...but sounds like the guy phucked up pulling low. I've been there and it was a RUSH! In fact, my best memories of BASE are the low pulls - I love kicking the koalas mate!

JJ

Dear All,

Csabi left a woman with a young kid and a father with disability pension.
We do everything with our power to help, over that an account was opened to support his family:

IBAN: HU80-10700165-12703102-51900001
SWIFT: HHUHB
Name and address of the bank: CIB Bank, Békéscsaba, Szabadság tér 1/3 - HUNGARY
Owner of the account: Zsíros György

We thank everyone for all the help in the name of his family. If anyone interested in the date of the funeral, email me.

Csaber

Hi Csaber, Karen (from BR) here....
I read about your friend hitting the wall in Switzerland. I'm so sorry for your loss, and also for having to deal with everyone judging the incident with no facts or anything.
I knew from the first second when the post said a Hungarian jumper that you would have been there. I didn't worry that it was you because I know you have more experience, but even with all the misinformation...I knew it wasn't you.
I hope you and the family and friends are all doing ok. We do all make the decision for ourselves if jumping is worth risking our lives, so each person is ultimately responsible for himself.
Peace and strength to you...
Love,
Karen

PS: JJ!!! thanks for your input and please don't stop. It looks like BASE needs some of the classic teachings that kept Nick, Annie, Moe, Stein, and many others alive even after more than 2 decades of jumping. Moe predicted a huge increase in BASE fatalities a few years ago..."any skydiver with a credit card and a computer can get BASE gear"...so let's just go ahead and hand out grenades to grade-schoolers while we're at it....
Peace,
K

Is it? is that all you get from it?

this is funny as hell. people giving you shit. JJ you skuzbag. Ya mutherfuker is that all you get out of it ?. ....
the 3 years you quit is longer than half the people on webpage basezone have been jumping. So your kinda like your a dead BASE jumper. ...
.

Thanks your input.he was my friend .we all miss you csabiq!NAGYON SAJNALOM AMI TÖRTÉNT.MAJD TALÁLKOZUNK ODAÁT!
He worked so hard,BASE was his playground,See'll You csabiq!

Hey Csaber,
man, my deepest condolences to you. I know it's a great loss for all your crew. I remember and love all of you, guys. You are quiet hardcore, that's true, but i know you do know what are you doing -- i jumped with you -- otherwise i would be avoiding you -- but i did jumped and i really enjoyed it. So keep on doing the cool things you're doing and be strong. I'm not sure i've ever met Csaba personnally but sure i've hear a lot about him and i know he was one of the pioneers and a good friend of you and Gaber and others. Be strong, my friends, and be carefull. I definatelly wanna meet all of you again. Again -- my deepest condolences to you and Csaba's family.
Hugs and luv
I'm with ya
and hope to see ya soon

Lika