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With reference to a comment made in the thread about the recent fatality in Twin Falls, I'm just wondering what people think about reaching back for risers immediately after throwing the PC, pros/cons etc.

Ive recently done my first few BASE jumps and on all the jumps I automatically reached back for the risers after throwing the PC (as I do on a Skydive). My instructors told me this was fine but what do other people think?

Ive attached a frame grab from one of my jumps.

Cheers,

Ifan.

I started reaching for my risers right after pitching to help stop me dropping a shoulder.

Most of my jumps are in the low range with 0 - 2 sec delays, and I have not had issue, but I have to admit, Sabre210's comments have made me think about what I may do with delays longer than this. My gut feeling is that my body position is still rather boxed even with the immediate riser grab pitch, so I dont think extra drag on my legs are an issue for me.

I always taught my students to not do this.
It makes it easier to get yourself in line-twists on opening. Think of how divers increase their rotation in the spin, they bring their arms in. The opposite to stop it, arms out. The same holds true for wrestlers, if they were to keep their arms in close to the body, it would be very easy for the opponent to flip them over. Arms and legs spread out to be more stable

I got the exact same lesson from my first elliptical canopy: do not reach, do not touch.

Or does reaching matters with the usual BASE wingload?

I always reach , I don't even think about it, it's like a reflex .
The only time I don't reach is when I do W/S base jumps. Other than that never had any problems because of reaching.

Cheers
Gabo

  I feel it's a bad habit, especially to reach that far where you could potentially interfere with the opening or compromise your body position if you needed your arms for stability.

It certainly wasn't my intention to throw one of those 'oh it's black death' clouds over this technique. There's no doubt that it works for many many many people and you could argue easily that you can get control of the canopy quickly using this technique.

My comment really was just a thought relating to how you might compromise a more stable body position in the event that you have a serious hesitation.

Personally i don't use this technique as i feel it compromises how square my shoulder are during deployment. However i know of people who say that when they started doing this, it actively helped their heading performance.

Ultimately it's horses for courses, cos as with everything in BASE, one size doesn't fit all.

ian

I do use this technique, mostly unconsciously at this point.

I've never felt that it compromised my heading performance or body position, although Lonnie's point about reducing your rotational inertia is well taken.

Another warning: I've sprained my thumb on 2 occasions reaching for the risers too fast (and having them slap across my hand). Be careful if you are doing this, and don't hit anything too far in advance.

This is bad technique. Do not put your hands into the deploying canopy, risers, or lines. Keep your legs and arms apart to increase your moment of inertia and decrease the chance of a spin. Once you feel like you are getting into the saddle, thrust your head and arms back to get onto the situation.

I always stick my arms straight out after pitching for the sole reason that when my canopy is open my toggles/risers will be right by my hands, as opposed to reaching back to where my risers will not be in the next second.

I like the point of staying wide and decreasing your inertia in the event of a spin up.

Although I've always been a reacher. Not back by the container though. I leave my hands near my ears, elbows out to the side. This way my risers usually end up right in my hands and I'm ready to deal with The perfect on heading openings I will always have.

Remember kids, always give your pals the reach-around.... they'll love ya for it.

I have also heard that keeping your hands out, as opposed to having them back, can help prevent you from going head low, as your hands/arms will catch more air.

Probably a minor thing, but something to think about.

I also, instinctively, reach back for my risers, almost immediately after pitching.

Have been trying to kick this habit though.

I was taught not to reach after deployment but rather to re establish a stable , shoulders level 'box man' position after pitching ( and that seeing your hands/arms in your peripheral vision to the front&side of you may help that....)
I'm not a 'reacher' but can feel the moment my risers are free and have my hands on them early in deployment...
I have reckoned the risk of your hands getting slapped/entagled with a deploying riser by having them there ...before the riser deploys ....
isnt worth it compared to being able to have arms out ...helping your body position/symmetry and getting on the risers quickly as you feel your way through deployment...
How much benefit in canopy control is gained by having them on the rears so early in deployment....vs getting on them quicker a fraction later during deployment when feeling they are free ..?
Is there that much difference in being able to correct heading that early in the deployment sequence by having hands on the risers as soon as they they come off the container.....(but when the canopy has not even reached bottom skin inflation...) ...?

'I'm a Newbie alert' ...the above is my own opinion...nothing else

I put my hands on my mud flaps, as the riser covers come open, i put my hands on the 3rings.

this makes it very easy to find a riser i need, or go for toggles.

It's kind of funny. I don't intentionally reach for my risers, as a matter of fact I've been told I'm not quite quick enough to my risers, but every picture I have show my hands near my shoulders prior to opening.

I've got to wonder if there is something else happening...

I got tired of having my hands spanked with risers. I wait.
take care,
space

I second that ! Another sprained thumb here... So if you reach (I still do), don't reach too far too early.

No way . . . No reaching for risers. Keep flying until you are doing something else, like sitting under a canopy.

NickD
BASE 194

 looking at your picture i would say you should just trust your pack job more, throw the pilot-chute and leave it alone.
if in doubt adopt the body position shown in Zoters first picture whilst your parachute is deploying.
you have to be fast on the risers yes but when the canopy is deploying you need to occupy your mind with something else. perhaps go to your happy place, maybe pause to remember the smell of the promise of spring on a beautiful may morning or even the colour of golden leaves falling like fireworks on a still autumn evening, i find looking at the ground and smiling helps but please what ever you do don't shove your hands inside your container after throwing the pilot-chute because if you carry on doing it sooner or later its going to really hurt you. im a rigger so you can trust me..... yes really!!!. you're going mess up a beautiful pack job and when you destroy something beautiful only bad things can come of it.

I have taken chunks of flesh off my hands doing it to soon.

Thanks guys for the tips, ill take take this in mind when hopefully I start BASE for real in the coming summer.

Just to let you know, all my jumps whilst reaching for the risers I also had perfect on heading openings.

Ive also attached a sequence of shots from one of my jumps.


Comments welcome.

Ifan.

In your opinion,(or anyone else's) did the risers hitting your hands ever contribute to an off heading? Or is there too much energy in the system for riser strike to make a difference?

reaching is a sign of weakness. hands on risers during deployment (especially asymetrical pressure) leads to off heading openings. your fear should be gone once you commit.

like nick said...

edit to add example...

The "middle" shot sure is an interesting body position.

Last spring I blew my right toggle on a slider-down jump. I believe that I reached for my risers before opening, and consequently the riser slapped my hand in such a way that it knocked the toggle free. It is also possible that I had set it improperly and it would have blown anyway. That event has made me less aggressive about reaching for toggles.

The funny part was right before exit, I told Bill that my fortune cookie at lunch said that I would have an interesting day

What style of toggles where you using?

i have been taught not to reach as a friend of my mentors apparently cut one riser away doing so but what ever

I always go reach for risers just when I feel the opening shock.
My main concern before that moment is to keep a good body position.
I've seen people touching the extracting canopy while reaching the risers with a good chance of an entaglement (expecially if you jump a MULTI equipped canopy)...

My on headings got noticeably better when I quit reaching for my risers and just went back to the box position after I pitched. Who knows?

After looking again at the pics from the recent TFs fatality, do you think the transition from such a head high exit to such a head low position can be attributed to a "going for the risers" postion? The acute difference in postion cant be solely from reaching for the risers on deployment.... or am I being really stupid in this conclusion?

I am a little confused by the thought that the reaching for the risers may have had an issue in this....

I only note, as I always reach on pitch and find my body postion is helped by doing so.... (I know others disagree with this)

 My opinion(s) :

- firstly, my preferred technique is thus. I deploy. My main focus on deployment is clear area for the equipment to deploy (back pointing upwards), and to know the relative position of my shoulders to the ground. I prefer to have shoulders symmetrical and perpendiculer to the deployment (parallel with flat ground), but I also like to have fun on lots of jumps so I allow for my shoulder angles and am ready for off headings as per their relative position. As soon as I throw the pilot chute, I focus on body position, understanding how flat / angled my shoulders are, etc. In one continuous motion, I move my hands to where my risers will be as the deploying canopy is just about to reach line stretch and I start swinging through. As I am moving my hands there, I sense what is happening to my body whilst various parts of my harness tensions up against the body. This gives me an early clue as to what my heading will be, etc. IF everything feels fine and the visuals are confirming that feeling, I move towards toggles. If there is ANYTHING questionable in how I feel, then I will grab my risers in anticipation of heading correction. Note that I grab the risers at the toggle area such that I am always going for the same place. The input to heading corrections is dependant no how much force is placed on my harness and where (see example below), and how my gear is set up.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT WHAT I TEACH MY STUDENTS - IT IS THE TECHNIQUE FOR ME - I have a few jumps under my expanding belt (lots of high level competition CRW and lots of BASE)!!!!! I also vary this technique depending on what object I am jumping from, the type of jump that I am doing, the gear that I am jumping, how I feel, how current I am, etc. For the above to work well, you need to be experienced, current, very 3D aware of your body position, and in tune with the gear you are jumping,

For example, if my left shoulder is dipped, I will usually feel tension on the left shoulder at the start of the swing through (the tension confirms what I think my shoulders are doing - feedback). I will also usually feel slightly higher pressure on my left leg strap at the latter stages of the swing through. Because I am feeling uneven tensions and I initially estimated that my left shoulder was dipped, my mind is already focused in dealing with a left off heading. So I will focus on getting my hands on the rear risers (this assumes minimal lateral separation from an object). My focus will also be stronger on the right riser so that I can put more effort into correcting the heading that way. My peripheral vision becomes heightened such that I am focusing on heading correction but keeping an eye on the object. This allows me to alter my decision r.e. heading correction if the heading is coming around too much.

STUDENTS AND INEXPERIENCED PEOPLE:

What I see in the photo is not ideal IMHO. Unless you have long arms and are very flexible, you will be reaching further down the risers and will have less leverage and control over your inputs. The good point is to gain more leverage you have to reach further up your risers and this takes more time - so you are saving time. But you have to balance time with response time from your inputs. Someone else in this thread mentioned reaching for the 3 rings. There is stuff all leverage there. Although you can get to your 3 ring quicker, it will take longer and more effort to get the response you want out of your canopy to get the heading correction you are after.

With absolute beginners I recommend body stability as number one. Given that you should be jumping off "safer" objects such as bridges initially, heading correction is a little less critical initially, so you get to focus on squaring your shoulders and allowing the canopy to come out stable and on heading. So pitch your pilot chute, square your shoulders in a good stable box man position, and in the latter stages of your swing through, reach for your risers. The trick with absolute beginners is to get them to count (1000, 2000, 3000 - maybe 4 and 5 for those quick counters ). This forces them to keep a stable body position for longer and allows the canopy to deploy properly. If you don't want to jump off bridges initially and object strike is more relevant, then you need to get your heading correction sorted straight away. This means getting onto risers sooner.

There was a point made about line twists and reaching for risers. The point on rotation is very pertinent. Another example of this is figure skaters, when they start a spin there limbs are extended. As they bring their limbs closer to their bodies the rotational speed increases immensely. Divers do this on multiple somersaults and twists. So do aerobatic BASE jumpers. The line twist scenario usually comes in the following situation: if a jumper does have unsymmetrical shoulders and they are badly head down, they will load the riser on the side that is shoulder down quite heavily. They will then start to spin around that pivot point and in that direction (i.e. left shoulder down will lead to left twist). Because they are head down, their body has to travel down under the influence of gravity, and the excess speed of the body has to translate / dissipate somewhere. Twisting around is the only palce to go. If the arms are in, then this spinnig will be faster - just like the figure skater and diver. This will make the twists worse. If you reach too low on the risers, you have minimal chance of stopping the twists due to all the force and speed involved.

That's why a student should count and remain balance in a harness and jump off objects initially where heading correction is not life critical (just technique and fundamental learning critical).

There is much benefit in getting onto your controls as earlier as possible. But you have to balance this benefit with the potential cost of stuffing up your body position which causes the heading problem in the first place. So beginners should focus on body position through the deployment and heading control at the latter stages of deployment. And jump off a safe object initially.

Experienced people are just that. They can choose for themselves.


When doing CRW, I used to watch other people deploying around me (When doing tight multi way exits and close openings). I got whacked in the head a few too many times by my risers. Now I use peripheral vision. This is relevant to BASE camera people who watch others whilst deploying. Make sure your head and camera are not within riser deployment range, otherwise you get bitch slapped - I recommend the wider risers for bitch slapping, they hurt less as the slappign covers a wider area...

You getting too old for B&D Tracy???? Love your work bro... When are you coming to Oz??????