Basejumper.com - archive

http://www.blincmagazine.com/...owthread.php?t=24437

FLAME AWAY!

aaaawwww....shit!
we're gonna need a young priest and an old priest when this is all over with...

You are obviously looking to start trouble, Mac.

The fatality and Birdman incidents did not involve new jumpers. The Birdman was a low pull and not the result of wearing a suit. We are not sure why Brian didn't release his PC and we're still investigating it.

We always suggest that jumpers receive extensive BASE training. For several years now, we offered a full blown FJC with expert instruction. This was MY idea several years ago and it NEVER existed in the past. At least 19 jumpers took advantage of it. If for some reason jumpers choose to not seek advanced training prior to BD through their mentor or another FJC, we (and past organizers) offer a 1-1.5 hour long course to show them the basics of the launch, holding the pc, landing, etc. We made jump requirements more strict in recent years.

This year, the approximate 128 first time jumpers did great and all of them had a great time. In past years, thousands of first timers have successfully made a jump at Bridge Day.


Perhaps you should ask Jean Boenish about the training she provided to Brian. Would YOU question a jumper trained by Jean Boenish and THREE other very experienced jumpers?. If Jean thought Brian should not have jumped, then why didn't Jean tell us? We didn't know when Brian made his last jump and most, if not all, BASE FJC's don't have currency requirements. Brian is ultimately responsible for his own death and it's sad to see you trying to point fingers at the instructors. Brian received at least 9 hours of training that we are aware of.

Seeing that you've never been to Bridge Day, what gives you right to criticize it? In the wake of a fatality, I can't believe you have the nerve to criticize the event. You have always been negative toward Bridge Day, and now you're being negative towards our sport in general. You are a disgrace to our sport.

In the future, perhaps our unregulated sport should raise requirements for all jumps? Now you'll need the following:
-1000 skydives (50 made in the last one month)
-BASE specific gear that is less than 2 years old, chosen from an approved list
-No wingsuits or trackpants
-Mandatory helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, full body armor, gloves, jump boots.
-Must bring your logbook and show organizers you made stated jumps.
-Must receive a medical evaluation 30 days prior to jump
-Must attend our 7 day long FJC if you have less than 50 BASE jumps.
-Appropriate size canopies for each jumpers weight, verified by us.
-We'll have our staff examine your pack job
-Everyone will have to perform exits in the pendulator
-Maximum 3 second delays or we'll cut your badge
-Must go flat and stable (no aerials)

....you get the point, I trust? Perhaps you can offer some suggestions to make it safer rather than bashing us?

In case you didn't know, BASE jumping is dangerous. There have always been "close calls" at Bridge Day each year and at every other jumpable object in the world. Didn't you, an "experienced jumper", get all busted up and nearly die in the past?

This is a very tough time for us. I'm in the process of analyzing video and stills to see what went wrong. What really hurts the most is reading that my BASE brothers and sisters are pointing fingers rather than offering help and suggestions.

(c)2006 Jason Bell. No unauthorized duplication permitted.

Investigating??? Dude, it's called brainlock, sensory overloading, you god damn name it.


Sure, 350 bucks and absolutely no jumps prior to the BD one. You call that a full blown FJC?


And how many PCA did that include? Or why didn't anyone suggest something along those lines "Hey Brian, about a trip to a DZ and a couple of S/Ls? you know it's been about 25 years from your last jump and 40 from your only BASE and you have never flown a ra air".

Jason you are doing an incredible job putting together the event, no doubt.

However there were some serious overlooks that ultimately led to Brian's death.

If Brian was my student I would have forced him to make a couple of skydives and I would have PCAed him of the bridge, at least on the first jump.

Nope. There was only one; Brian didn't throw his pilotchute on time.

To anybody trying to shift blame to anybody but Brian himself, please PM me your addres, I'll personally come punch you in the face.

I'm confident that Jason and all the others involved tried incredibly hard to make sure that Brian was adequately prepared.

When the day comes that I go in, don't let me catch any of you fuckers trying to put blame anywhere else but my own decisions and actions. If I can't own my failures, I'll never deserve success.

Regardless of any past experience.

Pull
Pull on time
Pull on time stable

Which he was not! And that's the point! NOBODY is blaming ANYONE for Brian's death. However an accident is always a chain of events and any of the following could have broken some links:

Few skydives before BD.

PCA instead of FF.

BASE AFF with two Is where the right I deploys.

Again NOBODY is blaming ANYONE but at least there should be some effort in trying to avoid a similar situation in the future.

No, I am obviously looking to ask questions others may not....

also why are you responding to this thread rather than where the original thread is posted?

Trying to prevent some opportunistic journalist from using your post Jason? Couldn't they just reword it?

Oh by the way...BASE ain't skydiving we all know that but try to go to any DZ in the US and see if they let you jump all by yourself after it has been 25 years since your last jump using equipment that now it's not even use as a car cover.

YES I WOULD... just because you maybe a name, if I disagree with you I will still stand there and say "you are wrong", how many people would do that? Maybe Brian would be alive if someone stood up to you lot as "BASE Gods"

Point in fact, your egos got in the way of sensible choices.... you tried to get a "legend" jumped..... you got that... he died.... deal with it, accept your choices hey!!!! at least have the balls to admit it!

Are you saying that Johnny U. and Tom Aiello aren't teaching an appropriate 4 day long BASE FJC? They might disagree. Vertical Visions doesn't teach the full blown BASE FJC, by the way. Every jumper must have made a considerable amount of skydives prior to attending each FJC (it's up to each instructor).

As to making a return trip to the DZ, Brian was offered this opportunity but he eventually decided against it. Remember that Mike Pelkey had similar training and perfect return jump at Bridge Day 2005.


First of all, you obviously don't know the physical size of the NRGB. PCA'ing from NRGB is like PCA'ing from a low cliff. There is at least 150' of steel below the exit point. PCA's are not as safe as short freefalls.

As I mentioned before, we had no knowlege of Brian's currency. If only Jean Boenish, who probably spent the most time with him, had told us about her concerns, then things might have been different...

Mac, sometimes it can be useful to ask yourself what you're trying to achieve when you post something.

And in case you already know it yourself, enlighten us and tell us what the goal of this discussion is?

Do you think the people involved haven't gone through similar thought exercises already? Given most of them knew Brian personally, I'm sure they'll go through much more rigorous and contemplative discussions than anything you can come up with.

You're not helping Mac...

BOLLOXS!

How come me in the UK did and you did not????

Absolute shit!

To get people to be truthful and actually accept "personal resposibility".... that is what BASE is about


With what exactly?

No they are not. BASE jumping is a hands-on activity. There are no prior jumps in the form of PCA during their corse at the BD unlike the ones they conduct in TW.


Wow Jason, a sample size of 1. You are re-writing statistics here


My bad, I meant off a different object...

An AFF with two Is would have been a great alternative.


And that is not an overlook?

Well if you think that then fine... If I am a disgrace to BASE from you then obviously I am.... you are a name after all, so what you say is truth....

IF you actually knew me you would appreicate my passion, but I am just a little man and my thoughts and attempts at causing mayhem to keep alive the passion maybe lost..... I want people to ask questions

First of all; that is what BASE is about to you. Others may have other opinions.

Secondly; you don't think that Jason and Jean and all the others don't feel terrible right now? You don't think they wish they could go back in time and change things?

Thirdly; I'll be truthful and take personal responsibility if that is what you want: "Dear BASE community, I'm really sorry I didn't hop on a plane to fly to West Virgiana to stop Brian from jumping. I failed you all."

Fourth; You're a fucking asshole Mac. You remind me of that guy that gives speeches at funerals to remind everybody what a cunt the deceased was. It doesn't help anybody, but at least you feel better, don't you?

You need to relax. Go pack your canopy, go make a jump, and give up on this idealized picture you have of BASE. It never existed anywhere but in our heads...

This is not about feeling terrible or not. It's about PREVENTING shit like this from happening again.


I wonder if Tom is going to ban you but I doubt.


And you need to see the point he is trying to make.

Brian was not "invited" to BD. Brian paid his $75 like everyone else and he stood in line like the rest. We did NOT try to get a legend jumped. Actually, the organizers had very few converstations with Brian since he was being carefully trained by the best (his own words on NPR radio). He was just another jumper to us. And we don't check logbooks at BD (no one ever has). Much of how BD is regulated is based on what the past organizers have done. We made the rules more strict in recent years, but apparently not strict enough for some of you. Again, I'll ask you for suggestions to make it safer rather than attacks against our policies.

Brian's daughter Tina hoped that people wouldn't argue and fight over Brian's death. Brian wanted to jump so bad that he would have reportedly jumped the next day if we had pulled his jump badge. Of course, if Jean had said anything to us things might be different.

Out of respect for Brian's family, perhaps you can withhold your attacks?

Two wrongs don't make a right Jason.

Everyone calm down. MyTwoCents, you are out of order.

Cause not........ one of the clique hey!

Craig, you aren't helping this either. BRIAN'S DAUGHTER doesn't want everyone attacking each other.

I'm not attacking; just trying to get everyone to stick to the rules of the site.

Come on, you've been around here long enough to know better.



That's a personal attack.



And that's a direct threat of physical violence.


Neither of those is allowed here. The second is way over the line.

I'm banning you for 30 days.

Jason, that's a personal attack.

You are central to this discussion, and it's a discussion that I think a lot of us need to have. I'm very reluctant to ban you from this forum for that reason, but please try to restrain yourself.

Regardless of any copyright or other warnings, I will edit future posts of yours that include personal attacks. If you want to sue Dropzone.com over that, I'm sure that Sangiro will be amused.

All,

This is obviously a discussion that many of us need to have. I'm sure that we can do that without resorting to name calling. Let's try to be adult about this, ok?

Please remember that the Press, as well as family and friends of the deceased, are reading these forums, and conduct yourself accordingly.

If you don't want to see your words reproduced by the media, you're best off not to post them here.

Please have some consideration for family who may be reading this, as well.

I'm going to ride herd on this thread as closely as possible.

Although it may seem odd, I agree with you. My Bridge Day FJC includes a lecture on the differences between the Bridge Day course and the Twin Falls course (primarily that there are 12-15 more jumps made in Twin, but some other things, too). I also offer discounts to students from Bridge Day who wish to seek additional training in Twin Falls.

My Bridge Day course does include all the classroom and pre-jump material I cover in Twin Falls. It's unfortunately not possible to include all the jumps (although I'm hopeful that Jason will win his battle with the NPS to get us 3 days of jumping, and that will help things immensely). There is also a certain amount of reformatting to meet the scheduling requirements of Bridge Day, which may (or may not, depending on how you learn) make it more difficult to retain some material.

 

A few thoughts on this:

1) Jason Bell does a fantastic job organizing Bridge Day. He also tries to help people as much as he can around the event. I believe he tried to help Brian to jump in exactly the same way he would have helped anyone else. I've seen him go so far as to offer his personal gear to a first time jumper (someone who you've never heard of, and neither had he, who wasn't famous in the sport, or a big time skydiver, or anyone else). I do not believe that he did anything for Brian that he wouldn't have (and hasn't) done for anyone else.


2) Many people seem to want to apportion blame for this accident. I think that's both pointless and misguided. This is BASE jumping. Accidents happen. Sometimes we can avoid them, and sometimes we can learn from them. We are never going to eliminate them. I think we should all try to take what lessons we can from a tragic incident, and not try to learn lessons that really aren't there, and move on.


3) Probably everyone here knows that Johnny Utah and I don't get along on a personal level. So, take heed when I say this. Johnny did everything humanly possible to help Mike and Brian prepare for their jumps. He went above and beyond the call of duty, without asking for or receiving compensation, to try to help them achieve their dreams in as much safety as practicable. He acted in the best spirit of BASE traditions, as a more experienced jumper trying to help less experienced ones to follow their dreams, counseling and guiding them toward as safe a course as possible, while understanding that their own spirits would call them to do what they must.

Craig Poxon (cpoxon) is a moderator on Dropzone.com. This means that Sangiro, the owner of the site, trusts his judgment and feels that he understands both the unwritten ethos and written rules of this community. If he tells you that your post is over the line, he is probably right. Although I will use my judgment in moderating this forum, the odds are that I am going to agree with him the majority of the time, in the same way that the odds are that Sangiro will usually agree with my decisions.

Tom, you did make good points.

However, is there anything you'd like to add or elaborate so accidents like these one won't happen again?

This was not the case of an intentional low pull, a stunt gone wrong, a hard landing.

The "death camps" in Twin Falls involve people who have never been under a parachute before. That's different by a large margin from people with 50 skydives.

I'm not saying I'm entirely comfortable with tossing someone with 51 skydives off the NRGB for a stowed 5 second slider up jump, but I'm quite a bit more comfortable with that than putting someone with zero skydives off the bridge here for a 2 second hand held delay.

fair point.... nicely put and what I am trying to get from this thread.... there is no need to threaten me with violence (as others have) there is no point in saying I am anti BASE (those that actually know me know different) I am just trying to get truth and sense from something I feel was unnecessary....

My copyright at the bottom of my post was only meant to scare off the media. They have already misquoted me, cussed me, and hung up on me when I referred their questions to the Bridge Day Commission (as per BD protocol).

Feel free to edit my posts if you want, Tom. Your "sue dropzone.com" comment was a bit misguided, don't you think? I'm just trying to keep the media monkeys from picking my posts apart, but I also felt I needed to say something.

I'm done here for now. I've said what was on my mind. If anyone wants to offer some constructive criticism or tips so that BASE and Bridge Day will be safer, then I will join the discussion.

You know, if the Birdman would have went it, we'd be discussing why we allowed wingsuits or why we didn't check wingsuit logbooks. Or if an experienced jumper died trying 5 front flips, we'd be talking about banning anything over 4 flips. Or if someone bounced on a 7 way, we'd be criticized over the number of jumpers we allow at one time.

Someone once said, "There is no honor among thieves". Some BASE jumpers are simply thieves with a parachute on their back.

My sincere condolences to Brian's family. I can only hope that we will all work together to prevent future incidents such as this. If you have suggestions for improving safety at Bridge Day and other sites, please email me privately. Thank you.

Yes, it was. I apologize.

All hail Mac, the mighty champion of truth and personal responsibility and model for all! What a crock of shit!

As you well know, the "personal responsibility" that BASE is supposedly about refers to the person stepping off the edge being completely and 100% responsible for his or her own fate. But that doesn't fit with your agenda, which is to slag people you perceive to be (and resent as) "BASE Gods." So instead, you try to take the BASE mantra of personal responsibilty and turn it around and use it to suggest that it was NOT Brian's fault and he was NOT responsible for what happened. Rather, it was the ORGANIZERS' fault and THEY are responsible for Brian's demise. That is utterly absurd and completely the opposite of what personal responsibility in the BASE context has historically meant.

Every other time the concept of "personal responsibility" has come up in connection with a BASE fatality, it has been used as a shield by BASE jumpers to fend off attacks from non-jumpers coming in after the fact and trying to blame someone else for the death of their loved one. This is the first time I have seen a BASE jumper try to use it to absolve the deceased of responsibility for his own fate and lay the blame on others. Absolutely ABSURD, not to mention completely hypocritical.

I've been thinking about that. However, I'm not going to post a list in a public forum, especially under these circumstances. I can just imagine the Sunday Times article "Tom Aiello says that Bridge Day should change X, Y and Z..."

It's probably more productive to think those things over and then send your suggestions to Jason, since he's the one who's going to have to make decisions about what changes (if any) to make in the way things are run.

care to PM me?

PMd you...

you really have missed my point....

Weird, everyone is always bitching about personal freedom and how it is essential to the either the civilised world (or, more specifically, the sport of BASE) Then, when someone gets hurt by accident, there's always someone who has to pay or who's responsible for. It's quite paradoxical how some people pinch a proud tear away when they think about "the land of the free" and at the same time have a sue-or-be-sued (sorta speek) mentality even when it comes to freak accidents.

(edit. I take back what I put beween these brackets)

Brian made an appointment long ago, before any of us were born, to be at a certain place, at a certain time.
Being the good man that he was, he made his appointment, exactly on time.
I don't feel he'd be pleased that others were arguing over HIS choices, regardless of how WE feel about them.

Now he's trailblazing for us on the other side, and I personally look forward to having him 'show me around' the place when it's my turn.

359

I disagree.

There is a difference between showing off a stunt, intentionally pull low, being in a complex jump and just pure and simple brain-locking due to lack of hands-on training and currency.

If the guy with the WS went in I'd just say well he fucked up, he should have pulled a second sooner.

Brian failed to react due to his lack of experience. He did not make the call to burn it low, that was not his intention and that is what makes this incident DIFFERENT.

Why can't you see that?

On http://www.newsday.com/...tionalnews-headlines it says:


Also...is this a misquote or a lie? If it's not, it sheds a new (or resheds and existing) light on the whole "the trainers are responsible" argument.

Jean trained him, but never mentioned any red flags to anyone until after the fact.

Jean also inquired about bidding on the BD Organizer job a few years ago and she was aggressively asking organizational questions to us this year and typing things into her laptop. Another Fayetteville local told us that Jean approached him on 10/20 and mentioned that she was training two old timers, but one of them should not jump. The local didn't know who she was talking about. I believe she feels guilty for having trained him and then not telling anyone before Brians jump.

However, ultimately Brian is responsible for his actions. The more I talk to his daughter, the more I wish I had been able to spend time with him. He was a great man and had great courage to leap off El Cap before many of us were even born.

Hmmm...kinda regret bringing that quote up again now. Seems to steer the discussion in a direction it shouldn't go. Organisation is perhaps not the issue here.

I only wanted to point out that perhaps she did indeed tell Mr. Schubert he shouldn't jump. That is all.

My apologies.

Honor Among Thieves...

BASE jumpers, some Skydivers, my hipster friends, and all of my family are in "My Crew",
which means I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything, and I sure as hell aint gonna testify.

I am probably more scared of BASE jumping than any three guys you know and want to have
better safety but lets stick together a while longer before we start sifting through the details.

Would he offer his gear to Joe Someone who didn't have any jumps within the last 20 years? Would he be right to do so?

_____________________________________________

Brian failed to react due to his lack of experience.
_____________________________________________

I know that everyone who is taking this position is positively aware that all the square canopy experience in the world wouldn't have saved Brian's life. All he had to do is to count off three seconds and pitch.

I would be embarassed to appear to be so simple-minded that I thought executing this sequence would require extensive training and experience under canopy.

Brian was my dear friend and I would love to find someone or something to blame, but he was a big boy and 100% responsible for his own death.


.

I'm curious how it is you know what was going through Brians mind at the time. The only one who truly knows what was happening can't tell us. It's easy to say I would have done this, or that, now.

Hind sight is always 20-20

I feel for Brians close and extended family, as this has scratched open an old wound on me. All the coulda', woulda' and shoulda's will not change what has happened. Event's like this bring out the best and the worst in people, so Mike , my hat is off to you for showing strength and courage when you are hurt so bad. The rest of us could take a lesson from your example, put our best foot forward and keep on keepin' on knowing the bar has been set high.

well said pete...well said

people piont ther finger because there in secure maybe because they have a small dick or there mommy didnot hold them enough or maybe its because know one likes them because they smell and suck at flicking but that doesn't mean we should take it out on guys that have dedicated much of there live to bringing base to us we should just say thank u Tom Jonny Jason Brian

you have many ideas. do you plan on contributing actions? such as teaching your own FJC? show us how it's done?

Jason:
I agree that if the fatality had been the WS jumper, many would be questioning why it was permited... (maybe not the ones questioning this incident, but there would be someone.)

Mike:
you continue to be an inspiration. I talked briefly to Brian Friday night. we said little, but I loved the sparkle in his eye!

No doubt... Pete hit the nail on the head. I take inspiration from your strength mike, and I hope my friends and family are as strong if I bring this day to them. I hate to admit it in public, but I think I even agree with maggot.... if I read him correctly. I don't really think bridge day needs to change. It's a F'n freakshow! and that's 1/2 the beauty of it. There may be more deaths here in the future, there will DEFINATLY be more deaths in base. suck it up gang. If you don't like those odds, go back to skydiving. I recomend swooping Myself, I'm gonna do my best to keep my head up through the tough times, learn from every mistake, and always watch my boys' backs.

How could she? A dear friend that has been wanting to do this for the whole year and wouldn't have anything to do with her after she suggested he not jump. Knowing it was his decision, you think she should have went and tried to get the authorities to cut up his badge?

No offence meant by calling you the authorities.

That depends. First I would be questioning that persons experience. 876 ft is not the most ideal height for a first time wingsuit BASE jump. (I'm not saying that it was the person in question's first wingsuit BASE jump, but a hypothetical person) What if that person had never made a wingsuit skydive before? What if the person had never made a BASE jump before? You'd hope that person would have enough common sense or peers around them to prevent that from happening, but what if they don't? Fair enough if it's in the middle of the night, out of sight, but not if it's a public spectacle.

It may be an unregulated sport but Bridge Day is not an unregulated event. A line had been drawn. I think that line needs to be moved.

Little bit off topic, but
Has the requirements for BD next year changed to 250 skydives officially?

And here was me thinking that B.A.S.E was a sport where you are expected to take personal responsibility for your fate. Hmmm...

Personal responsibility for your own fate doesn't exclude responsibility to whom your fate may have influence.

Yes, but from everything I've read, the jumper chose to jump against the advice of those who have influence. I just can't see how it's right to try and apportion blame in those circumstances.

I let the real base gods do all the teaching because if I were teaching someone to base jump he/she would have so much skydiving and rigging experience that probably no teaching would be required beside few minor things. You guys make base look so complicated.

It's very upsetting to me that many fail to recognize the difference in this death.

Let me give you two scenarios:

A guy with 4000 jumps, 600 in the past year hooking himself in.

A guy plunging to his death with 0 previous jump, failing to pull either main or reserve who was allowed to jump on his own.

If you cannot recognize the difference in these two scenarios than you are missing Mac's and my point altogether.

Again folks NOBODY is blaming ANYONE for god sake! But don't let this "self responsibility" crap blind you to the brim from trying to prevent accidents like this one from happening again.

There is no doubt that the line will move. With BASE being an unregulated, unlicensed sport, relocating the "line" will require the collaborative thoughts of many people.

Should we not permit first time aerials? What about your first 4-way? Should wingsuits and tracking pants be banned, because we can't check everyone's logbook at the exit point (even then, it can be forged)? What is the appropriate currency? What if you can't speak and understand English - which could cause you to miss important exit ramp commands? Should we ban all skydiving gear? Should we ban foreign BASE gear? More than anything, I want Bridge Day to be safe. But I also don't want to see it fade out due to being overregulated.

Several years ago, I posted a helmet poll where the majority favored not having a helmet rule. I realize that many jumpers are independent and they value their personal freedoms. If an experienced jumper had died at Bridge Day due to a head injury, there would be many critics of our current helmet rule and some would be pointing fingers at us.

So how do we properly regulate Bridge Day while still permitting the personal freedoms that are the very essence of BASE jumping? Anyone can complain about the current requirements, but it takes a real jumper to offer his recommendations on improving the event.

Now for those of you that threatened me or called me a disgrace to BASE... I have achieved what I set out to achieve.... debate over something that everyone was thinking about....

my methods do make me look like a complete "See you next tuesday" and I know they do.... but all I want is people to discuss the issues that I feel need to be discussed.

I am sorry I offended ALOT of you, I am sorry you felt I was wrong.... I actually have the best intentions, my methods on the other hand are a bit fucked up....

I am shit at writing a decent post, the only way I know what to do is to throw shit at a fan....


All I wanted in the end was debate.....

edit to add: Thanks to all the people that emailed / PMd/ SMSd me saying "100% agree with you" - There were more of those than have actually bad mouthed me..... that kinda speaks loudly dont you think?

BASE428, I have emailed you to the email on your profile...

As I read this post, I am just wondering how much training Brian had when he decided to jump "El Cap". Certainly he had to receive more than 9 hours back then by all the experienced BASE gods.

With all the warning signs in place, Brian being the special kind of person he was, made a conscience choice to jump "El Cap" just as he did at Bridge Day 2006.

Well my friends, ive been to 25 bdays and worked the lz for every organizer that has ever taken on this task, and it is a task. These men and women that support this event do an amazing job, for example, there is a meeting every month with the bd commission that we are asked to attend. setting up the registration, making changes, making sure all info is put in the proper place, keeping track of it is quite a job and the average person will never be able to even comprehend what it takes to allow you to show up without a photo (even though you have3 months after registration opens) and still get you through in a timely manner. looking over info for months, we are only human, and do the best that can be done with what we have to work with. The vertical vision team arrives 4 days before this event and leaves 2 days after , and alll of this is to promote this event. By no means do we want to see any of our brothers and sisters get injured or killed. MY POINT being we alll do the best we can and expect the cooperation of all of the jumpers during this time, More jumpers should think of others well being before themselves by making things happen and not laying the blame on anybody. The very bottom line is we all make that decision to jump, nobody makes it for us, we all know what can happen ,even if we are very careful. we as jumpers must take the responsibility for our own actions. Its like saying if the state of wva hadnt of built this bridge, then there would have been 3 fatalities. I for 1 have eyewitnessed all 3 incidents and have jumped after 2 of them. what about drowning, 1 death was a drowning, and yet we are not required to wear floatation, its your choice. Frankly after the drowning, i was next in line and was advised not to jump without floatation and then i stood up and jumped off!!

MY CHOICE.

So if you damage yourself in any way, anybody could say you shouldnt of jumped, but it was Your choice.
Come to grips with life, what you do is a direct influence in your life, and others may be affected. Be a positive effect on others ( If you can, Im not sure some have that in them) but try anyway. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, we (Vertical Visions team) are trying to make this the safest event worldwide, but your common sense would help!

If this were any of the jumpers we would hold to protocol the same way we are doing now to protect from having the incorrect information being released about any of you! Whether it be an injury or a death.
I read the official press release statement in the debrief sat nite, and also escorted the daughter off of the beach, the look in tinas eyes, were that she knew the outcome, no matter what anyone said.This is something that will be with me for the rest of my days. Im just glad others didnt have to be there. Some may have never been back because of this. These are also part of our job, and we are dealing with it the best we can.

In conclusion my friends, this a very trying time for the vertical vision team and we are all doing the absolute best we can. Your help and support would be greatly appreciated,. Please respect our fallen Brother as you would want for yourself!

Bill Bird LZ Cordinator

That's the nub. Setting what is appropriate is a tough call and it will be neigh on impossible to please everyone. Nothing should be banned, but there should be progression in everything. It is difficult to verify people's qualifications, so all you can do is have participants declare that they have reached minimums before they try something at the next level, to ensure they are not biting off more than they can chew. You yourself say you want Bridge Day to be as safe as possible, so in a sensitive and public environment, it is not the place for people to be doing their first 4-way when they've only done solo's before. If people deceive you then that is their look out; all you can do is lay down the requirements and have people agree and accept those requirements.


I don't want to see it fade out due to being underregulated.


I think having a helmet rule is the absolute minimum thing you can do to demonstrate to the powers that be that you are striving for safety. It's a very easy win. But then again, I come from a nanny-state, where I have little choice when it comes to such matters, although I still chose to wear when even when I don't have to.

Is it about the individuals or is it about the event?

As I understand it, people have to submit themselves to security checks to take part in Bridge Day so they are already trading personal freedoms to do so. Again, it's down to the line, and where it is drawn.

As posted before, I don't think there should be a helmet rule for people intentionally landing in the water. The helmet rule is already in effect for the diving board. Besides that, it's up to the jumper. There's already a thread debating helmet use in BASE on the first page of this forum. Me, I'm all for helmets and pads unless you plan on landing in the water, but I don't think it should be required.

ill tell a mate ANY day if i think he/she shouldnt jump

perhaps thats what "teachers/mentors" need to do..

Perhaps close relation ship teaching aint the good way..

I would like to hear more of peoples thoughts on the title of this thread.

I took a FJC at Twin Falls, and felt good about it afterwards, went out and did some jumps on my own afterwards. I still needed/need advice from people more experienced of course, but I felt relatively prepared for what could be out there.

How do people that take a course at BD feel about things this after thieir course and only completing 2-4(max, I'm guessing) jumps? I'm guessing not very well, despite the "course material being the same".

I did 17 jumps on my course over 6 days, and still felt like needed a lot.

What are some peoples progression after a BD course? Ours was PCA -> Handheld -> Stowed -> longer delays -> etc...

What do FJC instructors (other than Tom, who said that he offers a discount on a subsequent TF course) offer in terms of follow up?

I'm hoping we can get a few anwers as to how people fealt about their BD training. I have a feeling some people are thinking they can go jump the world now and some (hopefully) realize that they could benefit from more info.

I also did an FJC at TF and got 23 jumps. I fealt very informed but have learned a few things since and will continue to learn, especially with possible advancements in gear technology.

BD:
safer exit.
more time to open.
properly manned main LZ (the water).

unfortunately, limited time. this interferes with the learning opportunity.

TF:
with no time limit, the instructors can wait for good weather and spread the learning opportunity over multiple days. this will permit re-inforcement of the training and more opportunity to develop their skills.

I didn't take the expanded FJC at BD but I did attend the hour long "survival" seminar. I can't say that I learned very much about BASE except how to "S" fold my bridle and pilot chute. I don't feel ready to jump anything else before being seriously mentored off what is considered "safer" BASE objects. I think a full blown FJC would be a great benefit to me but since I can imagine every single object to be different in nature, I am sure a FJC would not prepare me for everything I could come across.

Not really. Alot of people who feel like me couldn't be bothered to respond to you since a large portion of the time you come off as aggressive, arrogant and out of line. You throw down accusations but no real intelligent solutions or ideas. Your right, your methods are shite.

Have a nice day

so saber dave what your saying is that Mac should be more objective like me so mac what u have to do is an 8-ball mix in some E alot of gin and the world seems a whole lot brighter and the objects seem higher and alot harder to climb and if u have a ruff landing it doesn't hurt
the moral of the story is just get laid more and u wont be so pissed off all the time if u have to for god sayks do us all a favor and get a hooker

Yeah, in a very strange way that is kinda what I am saying

FINALLY..!, it's back to normal. The last 3-Posts. Are back to what I am used to reading and what I expect to read. on this SHIT HOLE. ...
.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is no way that any kind of course can prepare someone to be prepared for everything that could be out there.

For me, from my course, I believe that I got the basic knowledge and strategies to be able to figure things out on my own (well some things). Also to know where to go to get help and to have the confidence to go and get that help.

I suspect that any course that short would be lacking in areas such as that.

Bit out of line, isn't it? Also, your own comments mirror the complaint; the above statement is highly opinionated.

The internet is a foul medium sometimes; too much of the communication between people is lost. Let's also take that into account before blasting off?

not trying to compare base to skydiving, but the skydiving fjc doesn't prepare you for every thing you might come across in skydiving, but it sure does form a solid foundation to begin safely into the sport. I would imagine that most Base fjc work the same way

That's why we call them "First Jump Courses" instead of "Instant Expert BASE Jumper Courses."