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I'm filling out an order form for a new FliK 293 right now. I'm about 6'7" / 200lb with pretty long arms. I'd like to know if there are any other taller jumpers out there who have flown canopies with the 5th control line and whether or not they have had issues with stalling the canopy on landing.

Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

If it turns out to be too much trouble, then I'll just go ahead and use my sabre 170 in my skydiving rig with collapsible pilot chute on 2-second delays. I hear from jumpers in the field that this configuration has been working quite well lately.

The fifth line was added, as an option, to give the "larger" BASE canopies a bit more control authority. However, it seems to work best when you are under loading the canopy, like for experienced jumpers who jump big canopies and are protecting previous injuries. For the inexperienced an unintentional stall is a very real concern. Say you have a bad opening, and then turn the wrong way, and now you're doomed to hitting some type of ground obstruction. A full fledged panic flare with a fifth line can turn a slow speed obstruction collision into something much worse when the canopy stalls and goes away.

Working at Apex I received maybe one call from someone who wanted to add the fifth line to an existing canopy and dozens of calls from people who wanted to know if it was all right to remove it.

Another issue is nobody, except for maybe the CRW guys, comes to BASE with much stall experience in the first place. My advice would be if you don’t have a very good reason, give it a pass.

Phone or write Todd at Apex Perris as he always comes up with more insights into these things than anyone I know . . .

NickD
BASE 194

bert man: Humor: A

I reccomend not getting the 5th line. I just sent mine back to have it removed. The 5th line may or may not make a parachute more prone to tension knots, but with the increased occurence of them in the last few years. and the increased use of the 5th line, it is soemthing many jumpers have not ruled out. coombesy had his 5th line removed after his Flik opened spinning with a tension knot.

the 5th line might give you a better flare, but a base rig should be big enough that is puts you down soft everytime with standard configuration.

the 5th line also decreases the need for a Deep Brake Setting, but DBS is easy to use and the factory DBS offered by apex (must ask for it) works great as long as you are jumping within their reccomended wingloading.

it is becoming more and more popular to not use the 5th line on the flik.

Hey Nick,

Regarding your reference to CRW dogs and stalling --- is this referring to the practice of intentially stalling your canopy up high to learn where that point is? If so, I suggest that to all jumpers when trying a new wing. Of course I always instruct them the proper way to recover from, at least in the sky, is to slowly raise your arms. First time I intenitally stalled a PD210 and raised my arms too quickly it was kind of ugly.

Sort of. But, more so, when everyone jumped 7-cell canopies at the DZ, stalling them, flying them collapsed, or even flying them stalled and backwards (in reverse) was something you did for fun and sometimes on every jump. Nobody really does it to that extent anymore.

NickD
BASE 194

My experience has been that the 5th line compresses (shortens) the control stroke. This means that if you have long arms (which you do) it can actually hurt you, because you have to be extra careful with your toggle inputs.

If, on the other hand, you're a short, fat guy, like me, the shorter control stroke is very useful (because the full control stroke on a 4 line 300+ canopy is longer than my arm stroke).

I think the answer to this question depends on your build. With your build (tall and thin), I'd recommend going with 4 lines, not 5.

I still have my 5th on my 293' for about 2-3 years. I think you need to take a Canopy/wing for what it is and just learn it's ways.
I have never put a No Slider jump it though. The Flik is my slider-Up Only canopy since I bought it.
On my other 285 v-tecs are 4-line and Flair different when it comes to the lower-end of the stall pendulum. Flik has a more sensitive range but It seems to be no big deal though. I think I just fly by instinct and use the controls on a Canopy as I need them.
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my experience whith the 5th line mod is that you can get great "skydive" landings from it,but if you want to sink it into a tight spot you easily can stall your canopy.

I added 5th line mod on my fox 265vtec i got my flik 266vtec whith the 5th line and has removed it from both canopyes..

I did however have good use of it as i started after a injury,but wont use it for now.

Why did you send it back to have it removed? Do they do anything other than just taking it off?

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll probably just stick with 4 lines then.

Also, does anybody have experience here with mesh sliders on sabres? Those slider-down sabre openings are really starting to hurt and I'd like to slow them down a bit

yes, this configuration works particularly well on 300' spans.

I have the 5th line on my FLiK 322 and found that it does cause it to stall easier. I found that out the hard way while landing in deep brakes - as I flared for landing, I ending up falling backwards. Now I know where that point is and and aware of it if shooting an LZ in brakes.

I should probably take the 5th line off, but I have put enough skydives on the canopy and am now comfortable with the control range.

nope just cut it off(on the right side of the line/canopy)

It will take you as long as a rigger to remove the 5th line mod.(just need to cut that line in both ends)cant be more simple than that

nope just cut it off(on the right side of the line/canopy)

It will take you as long as a rigger to remove the 5th line mod.(just need to cut that line in both ends)cant be more simple than that
Much cheaper than shipping it back too.

SEE isn't that easy. Just buy the canopy as the manufacture designed it to fly. Fly it for a while. Get to know it. I you decide that the 5th line is not your cup of tea then just pull the O'l pair of scissors out and change it. Don't limit yourself to just one option. Take both and see yourself.
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I fly a Flik 220 with the 5th line & I found myself stalling the canopy out on landing. After spending a week at the Perrine doing all sorts of jumps I realized that the size of my PC makes a HUGE difference in the stall point of the canopy. At home I had been using a 48'' and found the stall point to be about at my nipples. With a 42'' it was close to my belly button, and with no PC (unpacked jumps) I had to pull the the toggles almost to my knees. I hadn't previously noticed a big differnce in the flare of my Fox with the standard 4 control lines & I doubt that the effect of the pilot chute size is as pronounced on larger canopies. Thoughts??

Wow. I have never heard anyone mention PC effecting the stall point. I'm eager to hear other peoples thoughts.

P.S. It must suck to stall that much on BASE jumps

Regarding pilot chute size and stall point: Well, as described it definitely makes sense in theory. As the pilot chute trails behind in flight, it increases the angle of attack of the wing by pulling on it. The larger the p/c and thus the more drag, the higher the angle of attack will be and thus the closer the stall point will be.

So, the reactions of the canopy as described by "eUrNiCc" fit nicely into this thinking, it simply makes sense.

But it is an interesting question just how much the angle of attack is changed by pilot chutes and whether it is the main explanation for what eUrNiCc experienced.

As an added complication we would have to research the difference between single and multiple attachment points of the pilot chute (see Apex Multi configuration).

I don't see how a pull on the attachment point (in any direction) could cause a change in the angle of attack. Can you explain your reasoning?

Pulling by the pilot chute creates a force approximately straight opposed to the flying direction and thus a torque around the center of gravity (compared to the situation without pilot chute). So, the whole system will rotate a little bit backwards (again compared to the situation without pilot chute). This increases angle of attack.

the pc will only pull aslong it gets pulled through the air,soon as you stall your canopy (unless its really windy,and you probaly already fly backwards)your pc usaly will coplapse as it no longer is pulled through the air..

or am i wrong

You are right, but what does this have to do with my post ?

perhaps i were replying to more than only your post,example the past 5 posts or so were people are talking about the influence from a pc vs stall..

I forgot to mention in the above post that I do have a MULTI and that the effect seems a little more pronounced when using the multi vs. using the conventional single attachment point, however I don't have enough jumps with various PC/Bridle combinations to make a very sound conclusion about the effect of the multi on the stall point.

It's also worth mentioning that the effect of PC size on the stall point is probably going to be much more pronounced on my 220 trailing a 48'' than on larger canopies.

  " P.S. It must suck to stall that much on BASE jumps."
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When the Flik came out I was pretty convinced that it would be widely accepted on the fact of the " Flair Stroke " being so similar to newer jumpers that were rally never raised on the larger 7-cell canopies as Skydivers. The extra line cascade is more sensitive to the pilots input on the controls. When you have more control of the amount of fabric at the tail section with input. I am seeing this as Big Plus. I am also seeing this as a big plus on doing Flat-Turns at lower AGL approach to land. Fliks are flat flyers with the capability of doing some very nice flat turns in the deep area of toggle control.
BUT I think that if you don't know your canopy and it's flight characteristics. When a BASE jumper gets himself into a tight situation and gets pressed with pressure. If he over reacts and 'Panic Stabs' the controls. Stall is just more likely to happen. And of course the canopy with 5 instead of 4 attachment points is going to be a little more touchy-feely with LESS movement and pull of the Toggles. Any Canopy that is taken to far and into the 'point of stall' with out the appropriate amount of forward speed to compensate. Is going to shudder and then If the Pilot get really overloaded he will pound himself in to the dirt. The same thing applies if you move this to the end of the spectrum. I don't know how many times I have heard people complain when starting out. That there canopy is not flaring right and there having hard landings.. Only to find that there control lines are to long or they are just not flaring deep enough on the stroke.
I have witnessed some very good accuracy from pilots using the 5th line. The size of you PC does make a difference on the distortion of the Flair on the pendulum when you are riding the Wire on the approach to make your final inputs with the control lines. Everything though must be taken into consideration how the design of the flight characteristics of that manufactures wing was intended to be controlled.
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I jump a blackjack with 5 lines. I set the toggles on skydives and then ended up moving them up about an inch after BASE jumping it because I was coming in kind of hard. On skydiving I was using a tiny PC and most my BASE jumps are on a 42. But I've also used a 46 twice and didn't notice any difference at all. I've never stalled it and my flairs on both PC's give me very nice soft landings.

Increase in drag without a change in lift. This moves your position on the polar curve of the wing. That is theory, and works IRL...

angle of attack - the angular difference between the relative wind and the chord line

relative wind - you ought to know...

chord line - an imaginary line drawn between the tip and the tail of the airfoil

thus, deflecting the tail down causes the chord line to change it's angle. this results in a greater angle of attack.

The PC's inflating because it's being drug through the air, so the angle of attack is the angle that the PC's being towed. Since it's attached to the center of the canopy, I assume it would pull the center B lines back a bit, but I don't think it would change the angle of attack noticably.

I figure there's probably a lot more force on the suspension lines, keeping the canopy's shape and angle of attack togethor.

Consider when the PC is off to one side or another. If the force is strong enough to change the angle of attack, wouldn't that be like pulling down on a front and rear riser on the same side (maybe it is).

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this. Or referenced video if anyone has a good example.

Some of these statements in this thread make no sense at all. The PC can have a major role in the flight of the canopy, of course. This was one of the motivators for using sleeve technology to collapse the pilot chute.

It sounds like your saying that the stall's are because a lack of forward speed? Do you think that the PC effects the trim noticably?

You do not need to change the shape of a canopy to change its angle of attack. In laymans terms, AoA is the degree to which the canopy is mushing through the air.

This is basic stuff...

I added the word shape in there because if someone thinks the PC pulls enough to change the angle of attack, it would pull the center of the canopy back and change the shape a bit.

exactly. you canopy flight and flare will be better if it does not have a pilot chute on it. be reminded though that the control stroke (i.e., pulling the toggles) will have to be much deeper than otherwise.

Enormous pilot chutes can actually distort a canopy causing a pronounced kink in the canopy as viewed from either above or below. It's a significant air anchor. It's more pronounced on 9 cell canopes.

NO!

while the PC is being dragged through the air, it is in disturbed air. there is no guaranteed relationship between the angle of the PC and the AoA.

to create the same amount of lift at slower speeds, the AoA must be increased. it it increases too much, a stall results.

as stated before, this is basic stuff.

and YES, the PC influences how the canopy flies. it just seems like you need to brush up on basic theory before adding that layer of complexity.