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Skydiving gear skydiver, complete with collapsible PC, Sabre 170 and 2sec delay from ITW the weekend before the last (7-8th of Oct) weekend. There were 2, I did not hear which canopy the other jumped but that he did the same delay with a collapsible. What shall we do? Shall we do anything? What should you do if you see anyone with this config gearing up at the exit point? Should we do anything?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Take care,
space

Yes you should do something if you find someone with this gear at the exit point.

I heard of someone having their wingsuit being taken off them at the ITW due to their complete lack of experience on WS and BASE, to me that is certainly within the line of acceptable.

Its not about being a killjoy, its not about policing people, its about stopping people not kill themselves.

Wow, what can you do short of a physical confrontation ? BASE is suppose to be free and unregulated.
Only thing that could possibly solve any problem like that would be to have someone stationed 'Full-Time' at the exit point. For a Mandatory Gear Check and Mandatory Check of BASE License.
Do you think that will happen any time soon ?
.
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It was a Sabre 170, d-bag, collapsible PC....I was there when the dude got back to his Car. An experienced jumper (1000 plus jumps) tried to tell the dude very nicely that it was a bad idea and got the shrug and the "yeah, I know" ...sneer...from the dude.

The 2 sec delay was another dude with what looked like proper BASE gear or atleast a BASE canopy and a BASE PC. We were having a coffee at the bar when we saw these guys jump...only saw the landing of the Sabre and the second guy open so high it looked wrong immediately.

Kris.

OK, Ray so what do you do when you see person after person landing on the talus or in a tree on the hill after taking a conservative delay? Do you just shrug and ignore them? Try to explain to them that you need to decide early on whether you are going for the main landing area or the helicopter landing area? Explain to them that when they clear the bowl the crosswind will affect their canopy flight? So the locals and the guys like Tracy do this and what happens? More shit canopy control from the same people and another unnecessary talus landing.

It went pretty much like this : don't use your rear risers, crab towards the main landing area using your toggles, don't use 45 trick to see where you will land, when you see the hill panic turn and land in the trees. But don't worry if you can't get your canopy back from the tree because a local will go get it for you the next morning while you are sitting in the cafe drinking cappucino.

I don't think you quite understand how frustrated the locals there are getting. People are showing up with a DZ skygod attitude and no respect for the locals who try to give them good advice. Non-jumpers at the cafe were taking bets on how many jumpers on a certain load wouldn't make either landing area (two didn't after average delays).

The locals don't want to regulate anything, but unless they get proactive soon the authorities might do it for them. I think if the ITW was your local you would be out on the talus by now with your shotgun encouraging the high pullers to fly their canopies to a landing area.

Pull their reserve. Just tell them it's because BASE jumpers hate skydivers...

What would you do if it was your local object?

The major distinction is in the local object.

Ray's local stuff is all pretty typical US objects. Mostly illegal, generally more technical than ITW, and a whole lot lower. If someone showed up at his local cliff with a Sabre in a skydiving rig, Ray wouldn't have to stop him. Darwin would do that. Afterward, the authorities wouldn't step in to regulate jumping--because they've already banned it.

An access sensitive legal site is a long way from even the most travelled sites in Ray's (or many other jumper's) area.

So Kris, what would you do if someone was there doing wholey inappropriate, massively dangerous jumps in complete contradiction to the well meant advice of exerienced jumpers? Really. I'm interested.

Gus

No, I meant, What would he do if it was his local object? As in if the wall in question was his local object.

Exactly what I did Gus. Just let the people that are better at talking do the talking. And think about myself.

Everyone has their opinions as to what is dangerous and what is not. I know what you refer to when you ask this question. Go back one year and you think I said the same thing to James...you do not know the full story. I don't think there is any point in me explaining things either....you've already made up your mind. Besides my writing skills suck.

Kris.

Awesome Kris.

Reading that, coming from you is just priceless. Utterly priceless. Glasshouses and stones spring to mind.....i don't know why.



ian

pop his reserve, and steal his cutaway, punch him in the nose.

maybe hel figure it out then, on the hike back down.

We were a much happier bunch when there were fewer "legal" sites to jump from. Sure, we had other problems like worrying about the image of BASE, and only because we cared, but we soon learned the lesson that no matter what anyone else did you could still have a happy career of "quietly" BASE jumping.

The poorest fellows now are the locals trying desperately to protect their fragile sites from the great unwashed. And oh boy, they get more unwashed every year. The current crop blasts sensitive sites all over Your Tube, thinks the previous generation of BASE jumpers are assholes, and seem to go out of their way to say they're out for themselves.

My advice to the "legal eagles" is give it up and go back to being "sneaky sparrows." You’re just going to make yourself miserable and start a lot of fights with people that would otherwise be your friends. These problems are your own fault – not the guy with the Sabre 170 and collapsible PC. You got into bed with the Man, so stretch out, and get comfortable. Hell, you're working for the Man!

The first generation of BASE went by the credo of let's follow natures rules, not man's rules. But you guys traded that freedom away for the convenience of "legal" jumps quicker than a hooker goes through an Army platoon.

BASE jumping is on the way to being regulated, and maybe quashed all together, if we don't chill out. You know, if we really put or efforts into it, we could make the whole world forget BASE jumping even exists. Imagine being back in the 1980s as far as the public knows, but you have 2006 BASE gear and skills. It would be mad times. But, sadly, we aren't cool enough for that.

History will bear out that "legal" sites hurt BASE jumping more in the end. And simply because it divides us and makes us less free. So tell those "people" who own your cliffs and bridges that they don’t own you. You might wind up with a few less jumps, and a few more fines, but at least you'll be riding on your own ticket.

And that's BASE . . .

NickD
BASE 194

That actually sounds almost appropriate! If it was here....our local big-ish cliff.....I might be tempted to do that just because it is much kinder than what MAY await such ignorance.

And hey.....its is a Sabre was it a Sabre 1?? I had an opening Sunday on my Sabre(1) 230 that was harder than any terminal punishment my Troll has ever handed me! The video is priceless.......as I scream in pain..half laughing, half crying.

Grrr, grumble, grumble fucking Sabre, grrrrr.......

I guess you are referring to my first post. I mearly wrote what I saw. Do you see me teaching/preaching? . I though you had a balanced mind and read and interpreted posts without emotion .

Seems like you were gagging to throw stones yourself .

Kris.

My criteria is purely selfish: can I live with myself when they spear in.

I only had 30 BASE jumps when I saw someone that I thought shouldn't be doing so jumping low shear cliffs. His exits were obviously (even to my inexperienced eyes) going to eventually result in strife. Experienced jumpers pointed out that BASE is all about freedom and self regulation.

Shortly afterwards, he had a 150 degree off heading on a generously overhung cliff, flew for a solid 5s (on shallow brake settings, it later transpired) with possibly half a line twist for the first half second, and straight into the cliff.

That fellow ended up being brain damaged to the point that he couldn't recognise close family.

Now I simply don't care if anyone thinks I'm an interfering old bastard. If I honestly think you're asking for trouble, due to your total lack of preparation and complete lack of respect, I will let you know all about it.

Now if you're an experienced jumper pushing the limits, have at it! I'll be there with my camera. My attitude may well change as I know more and more super experienced jumpers hammer in pushing their limits, but to me that is the sport. I still mourn their passing, but it's somehow more palatable than ignorant newbies dying purely through shear stupidity and lack of education. (Purely my opinion, obviously).

That's how I live with myself.

I'm glad that at least you're still alive: some people just have bigger sacks of luck.

I am not stating the Right or Wrong or in debate of consequences of choice bad or good made by those who play with the freedom that is there's.
BASE is the freedom to ' TAKE ' by anybody at any time Free-Fall & body flight from fixed objects of their desire.
That is what it is. That is all it will ever be.
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Who is training them?

>>My criteria is purely selfish: can I live with myself when they spear in.<<

Yes, that's a tough one to suss out . . .

In a way we are all responsible for every name on the List. But some of us are more responsible than others. That guy with the Sabre is there because he knows it's a place to go and jump. And he knows it because we blab about it all over the internet. Just stop doing that and in the long run we'd each probably save a life or two.

We talk about the "explosion" of BASE jumping participation since around the year 2000. Do you think we experienced that just because a new crop of jumpers thought BASE was so cool. Hello! BASE was always cool, it came because we made BASE jumping more accessible.

I'm opting out of feeling bad for my own part. You never see me on Geraldo, or hawking Vids of myself, or editing the BASE Wikki, and almost every post of mine has a cautionary tale attached for those that can see it. The fault lays with those writing the "how to get into BASE" articles, those guiding skydivers to remote corners of the word, and those generally handing out BASE for money or acclaim.

There is one simple step we could each take. Just make it harder for them to find you. If someone finds his way to my door and says, "Nick, I want to BASE jump and I want to know what you know," he's in there. But he has to find me first.

Okay, I realize most of the newer jumpers had an easier time getting into BASE than I and my contemporaries did. It's why my view and yours is so different. We did it with no Wikki, no DZ.com, and no assurance that what you were about to do was already done by thousands of people before you.

So, in a way things should be better, right?

Well, they are not. Stop being so damn self assured of yourslvels. I've been paying attention for a long time now, longer than most, and it offers me no assurance of what might happen on my next BASE jump. I only know what has happened before, and sometimes an inkling of the reason it happened. And that's about as big as the life boat gets in BASE jumping.

And sometimes I genuinely fear for you guys out there swimming in the water with no earthly idea about how you got out there . . . And then you're all telling each other which way to swim?

It's a shame most of the old timers are disgusted with these boards and don't post. And yes I do feel like the Lone Ranger here sometimes, but you new guys need to humble up a little bit.

NickD
BASE 194

People are capable of learning and changing over time.

I don't know the specifics of any particular situation. But, if you keep backing someone into a corner, he'll probably never come out of it.

Don't you work for the same company that has the lowest number of jumps as an FJC requisite? Not to mention an FJC that'll let you bring your own packers if you're only interested in the jumping part of the course?

Plus, didn't you start one of the first BASE boards?

Just let it go; times change. Jump with your friends, and try not to worry about the things you have no control over. People die. Organizations step in. But as long as my feet can reach an exit point, I'll find my altitude.

Here's the rub...

Imagine if Apex, Asylum, Morpheus and company all stopped giving FJC's, after being swayed by Nick's argument, and Jaap took down the BASE Wiki, and I was somehow able to delete everything I've ever posted on the internet.

We'd still have people coming into the sport. Only now, they'd be doing it either (a) without guidance, or (b) with guidance from other folks who weren't swayed by Nick's argument.

Neither (a) nor (b) is better than the current situation.

I guess what I'm saying is this: There is no going back.

All we can do is try to sort out how to go forward, and each do what we think is best. It seems to me that just getting off the train isn't going to stop it. It's just going to put a different crop of folks in the engine, and they're likely to have even less knowledge and historical perspective than the folks who are there now.


Oh, and Nick, if you start to feel like the lone ranger, remember that Kleggo and Rick H. are still regulars here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know Carl Boenish didn't mind showing his videos to people either.

I'm sure he would have been thrilled had YouTube existed in his days...

So do you old guys!

I have an exam tomorrow so can't type out a well written response right now....maybe tomorrow. I would say that alot of that post was bullshit. Also, do you not work for or affiliate yourself with a major BASE gear manufacturer!?!/!? The ones selling the shit to these people? Offering jump courses commercially? And, does APEX not have one of the lowest requirements for such said courses?!?!

I may be new (2.5 years) but I didn;t learn to jump from no fookin' Wikki or website.

Pointing out what Carl did back in the day is unlikely to give us much insight into what he would have thought or done were he still alive now. Even Carl could have changed his thoughts on BASE, or anything else. That applies to Nick, too, so I don't think your "didn't you start a discussion board" has much real merit. It's possible that the experience of running that board, or posting on others, has much to do with his current opinions.

People change their minds. We learn. We grow. It's one of the things that's cool about us.

Honestly, I think you're lumping too many things together there.

I'm always going to be in favor of people sharing technical knowledge, or building better gear. Those are the kinds of things that save lives.

Teaching courses...writing articles...sharing technical information...none of those things keep me from sleeping at night.

Very true, and I don't necessarily disagree with Nick. But he did say:


...and...


In light of that, I sensed some irony. I don't think the old guys were very different. It's just a new world these days.

I think Nick's sentiments are largely in line with my intention to shut BASE WIKI down a while back. I still struggle with it today, but in the end I decided that pro-actively sharing knowledge is the lesser evil.

As for the Sabre guy...

Imagine that hypothetically he had killed himself. Does anybody have any thoughts if there would have been much value in pointing out that he was using inappropriate gear, or are such remarks to little value to the law-makers that will just throw us all in one big pile of suicidal maniacs?

I'm seriously curious. Climbing faces much the same problems. Most of the time, search-and-rescue (and climber's access society in collaboration with park services) can figure out if somebody was being moronic, or if there was genuine danger.

Ofcourse that implies that I am more concerned with the consequences for the object than the life of the actual jumper himself. I suppose I'm a little bitter that way, but if somebody wants to take a two second delay off a terminal wall using skydiving gear, I'm not going to lose sleep over said person's life. It's the object I'm more worried about.

In Italy? I don't know.

My guess here in the US is that it would be the latter:

I'm no longer working for Apex BASE as of about three months ago. I had "words" with a few "customers" and Apex decided the customers were right and I was wrong.

It's all cool . . .

I first worked for Todd in the very beginning of Basic Research and then again after they became Apex. Apex isn't exactly the company I watched Todd start so many years ago. But I'm very proud of everything he has accomplished. In the early days we all thought we were doing the right thing, like many of you do now. However, and I don't know how many times I can say this, I don't know it all, I learn as I go. But, I've lost my taste for selling BASE for money.

In the late 80s and early 90s the calls I got from BASE jumpers at Basic Research were from people I usually knew already. They were experienced BASE jumpers and fun to do business with. Today the calls are from mostly clueless skydivers who asked me what they need rather than tell me what they want. That was a big sea change in the sport and not one I signed up for, or was willing to support. You've got to do a bit more homework than that to get passed me. But, nowadays it's come one come all.

Look, I was there when modern BASE started and nobody knows more than me that there's no's turning the clock back. I'm talking to those who want to give just a little thought to where we've been and where we're going.

And whoever said Carl Boenish would have been uploading to You Tube is wrong. Carl was first and foremost a commercial photographer, and he mainly came up with the jumps at El Cap in 1978 because he simply thought they would be cool to film. But as he became more deeply involved in the sport he named BASE he started to realize the responsibility of what he was showing other people. Carl died in 1984 when the BASE world was a whole lot different than today. And I believe if Carl was still alive he'd be posting right below me and telling you to get stuffed on that one.

In a way we had an excuse to be stupid about BASE jumping in the beginning.

What's the excuse now . . . ?

NickD
BASE 194

Since you have known him personally, I'll take your word for it. I stand corrected.

I must admit; I had to chuckle when somebody recently posted a link to his jumping video that was hosted on MySpace. Of all places...

But then again, that just means I've become the very snob I don't want to see in others.

One last point I would like to make; although we continue to be worried about the explosion of the sport, it doesn't seem like the inexperienced and uninformed are killing themselves at a rapid rate. A quick look at the last four years of BASE jumping shows a lot of experienced people pass away.

So although we may not have an excuse to do 'stupid' things anymore, I think the statistics actually show that a lot people continue to poop their pants at the exit point.

And so we should...

what kind of opening did he have? on heading? was the slider up or down?

Am I gonna get banned if I call this guy an idiot?

here is another question: would it be still cause for intervention if the guy had a normal base PC, and was planning to track past the rock and then open high above the talus??

I recently went hand held off of a terminal wall slider up with a two parachute system. I had a 180 and decided (after missing my toggles) two things: I would not do that again and that seatbelts are probably better.

Hey guys, this is Rick Harrison and after 35 years of skydiving and 25 years of BASE jumping, I have learned there will never be an absolute answer to this dilemma. Back in the early 80's, we actually enjoyed publicity so long as it was good, like the Bridge Day event. We also saw the problems of legal uncontrolled sites as early as New River 82 when Smitty and I had to talk a drunk student skydiver with only 5 static line jumps out of jumping at Bridge Day despite his drunker girlfriend egging him on to jump. The next year he sought us out and thanked us. I for one believe like Nick that legal sites and the super gear we now have, has contributed to unqualified jumpers in the sport. As I've said for 20 years the gear is getting so foolproof that fools are getting into the sport. But the freedom part of BASE is the individual decision regarding a persons Celebration of the Human Spirit. Unless you have a jumper who is so wrong or so wasted they may likely kill themselves, I don't think it's our place to actually stop a jump.
Carl always realized this sport would grow and knew all too well that a few irresponsible jumpers could screw things up. It's always been true, just more so now. FACT is, the sport will never be quite the same as the "old days" when the first 50 BASE jumpers probably had over ten years and a thousand skydives at the beginning. Since we can't go back we need more good FJC's to teach the hard lessons of the past. I must say since Joy and I started issuing the BASE numbers, I have been VERY impressed with many of the letters we get where people started with a great FJC like Marta and Jimmy and Tom's and others. I'm also impressed how many of these new jumpers actually start slow and keep a smart steady pace before pushing the harder ones. Their FJC's seem to teach them to be more aware of their limits and we need a lot more of that. As far as the Saber 170 jumper, he was crazy for doing a short delay at ITW with that canopy, but we aren't police. It often depends on if they are experienced enough to know their gear and their skills. If you feel they are not skilled or do not know the risk, I feel you have a humanitarian duty to warn them but probably not to tackle them. That is just the compromise we need to live with in BASE. It will get more difficult as more super newbies see our sport as a carnival ride, but we have to do our best to educate them that death can come quickly in this sport. I'm sure Carl would feel the same and I think it is only in the most dangerous situations that we should interfere with the ultimate act of freedom to decide for yourself once you have been warned.
Great Discussion Guys.
Rick Harrison
BASE 38
Night BASE 13

I'm not certain that these two conclusions are true. I'd like to offer the following for consideration.

I think Nick raises a valid point in that the cost of entry into BASE has been lowered over the course of time. Information about the sport and how to get into it bore a higher cost of entry, in previous years. Therefore new jumpers had to have more original inspiration and motivation to get into the sport.

Given the current mainstream media publication of the sport via movies, advertizements, these forums, etc, the mass public has an increased awareness of the sport which didn't exist before. Consequently the skydiving community has an even greater awareness of the sport and (to some extent) is coming to embrace it as part of a natural progression of jumping.

Since there is a general increased awareness of the existence of the sport, and a heightened one amongst skydivers, (those mostly likely to want to get into it,) and people are curious beings more and more people are seeking information about the sport. This is where the crux of Nick's ideas lie.

In the past, information about getting into BASE was harder to obtain and fewer people were seeking it. Now many people are seeking information about BASE and it's easily available.

The fact that the these forums, the wiki, etc, exist is tacit approval and (for some) active participation in a culture that believes in publicizing information about the sport. The fact that site names are loosely masked is a small consolation to the fact that the community itself has published all the information necessary for one to make their first BASE jump, independent of any mentoring. Which, in some ways, seems to be an indirect goal of these forums, wikis, articles, etc.

Perhaps these mediums will have reached their peak of success (by some definition) when individuals with no previous canopy experience can read them, teach themselves everything they need to know, order a BASE rig online and get into the sport without having to meet another jumper. At that point it will clearly be the success of the information available, it's exactness and thoroughness. Then one can definitively say that said person would not have survived without it. Although the question is, would they have tried without it?

That is the real catch-22 of the situation. Some assume that people with no experience are going to get into the sport with or without this information (and guidance), while others note that the reason people with no experience are getting into the sport is because of this information is so readily available which is to say they wouldn't be in this situation had these boards, wikis, etc, not been so accessible.

I think attitudes tend to change with experience as well. New jumpers celebrate and appreciate the methods by which they, personally, entered the sport, and wish to protect them and continue using them, until they feel more comfortable with their jumping. While those who are experienced with good local objects, and no commercial or popularity interests, would likely rather see less publicity about their local objects and perhaps the sport in general.

A somewhat interesting concept is that training methodologies mix book learning, lecture, and physical training to teach BASE jumping. Typically these courses are taught at the Perrine (a fine training object with a significantly reduced risk of death or injury). As information more easily available how has that mix shifted over time? What direction is it heading? What other trends are directly (and/or strongly) correlated?

BASE maybe undergoing a Malthusian progression toward critical mass. But we'll just see where it goes. It's not any one person's sport and that's part of the beauty of it. :-)

(btw I recognize that my own experience is recent and that I hardly qualify as a 'pre-explosion' jumper.)

-=Raistiln

After reading the replies, I realize that the we as group have a chance to become exactly what we (old timers) were always against. It reminds me of the joke: "What is a Conservative? It´s a Liberal 20yrs later.".
It´s about the freedom to choose our own risks and not have them dictated to us.
We were the crazy ones 25yrs ago. RW jumpers were the crazy ones 50yrs ago. Skydivers were the crazy ones XXyrs ago, etc. Each offshoot will either, grow or wither and die. Education is the key.
I personally watched 2 skydivers die 3yrs apart (#38 and #39) on BASE jumps. Same exact scenario. Same exact results right down to the point of impact. I am trying to find the silver lining behind this cloud. Maybe the silver lining is that if enough people do jump with skydiving gear and die that this would be enough to end the trend or vice versa, it might be a viable option.
Now thats food for thought.
hmmmmm,
take care,
space

For those who are on the "Get BASE quick" plan, I don't believe FJC's lower the barriers to entry. In fact, if any of those folks were to take a FJC, I think it would actually slow them down, at least by the hours spent in the course, with someone standing over them saying "no, you can't do a gainer yet."

I'm not so much worried about the people who actually go to the effort of seeking out formal instruction. It's the people who don't do that at all that concern me--they end up doing a gainer as part of a 3 way for their 7th jump and thinking that's a conservative progression (true story).

Oh Kris.

You're a bright guy, I know you can see the irony in the parallels here, don't be so disingenuous.

You (like the guy with the sabre170) chose a path many considered VERY risky and ill-advised, and like this guy you ignored a lot of sound advice from some highly respected BASE jumpers. I don't know what JB said to you that day but i'm sure he wasn't thrilled that your first BASE jump was going to be a wingsuit jump under the mentorship of a guy who himself had about 10 jumps. You have been fortunate to come out the other side unscathed.....we both know a guy who took the same path as you, with the same mentor who didn't .....right?????

I had to laugh at the irony there, that's all. Not having a go, you seemed like a nice guy at the funeral.

ian

Makes sense, didn't even know there was such a word for it.

was the canopy packed slider up or down ?

If after a good talk they still wanted to jump, their reserves should be popped.

I'm not sure I followed that correctly.

Are you saying that the profusion of information has reduced barriers to entry, thereby increasing the participation level?

And as a corollary, are you saying that if a significant portion of those offering information and/or training currently withdrew from the market, the incoming participant numbers would decrease (perhaps dramatically)?

If that's what you are saying (and I'm not sure it is), then I think that you are wrong.

I know of at least one person with less than 20 BASE jumps who is currently in the process of establishing a commercial BASE school (at least, that's what he's thinking of it as--it's more a "how to jump from paragliders with BASE gear" operation, but regardless, graduates of such a program will then go out to try their hand at fixed object parachuting). Those sorts of things are going on now. Any amount of withdrawal from the training process by people or groups with higher levels of fixed object parachuting experience is likely to only create a training vacuum, which will increase the rate at which new training programs (of better, worse, or equal quality is still to be seen and debated) are created.

A decade ago,
I was BASE when BASE wasn't cool.

Regarding popping rigs, yes it has happened before. The big wall in Colorado was visited by three of my friends (BASE 36, BASE 38, and BASE 175) in the early 1990's. They had skydiving rigs on. One of them (BASE 175) was so drunk he was staggering to the exit point while the other two were horrified not only be that but the fact that he was getting ready to launch from the wrong deadly point. The other two new about the consequences of a mistake there since one of them had to crawl out for 12 hours from a foor injury there from before. They tackled him, popped his reserve, and told him forcefully they weren't going to have anything to do with him for putting them in the position of having either to deal with him bouncing or rescuing his arse out of that canyon.

THIS MESSAGE BOARD, AMONG OTHERS!

Lets all try to remember it's not just NPS nazis and Press that are surreptitiously monitoring this forum-- hundreds of Darwin candidates and newbies with Sabres (or worse) are out there right now, misinterpreting everything said on here, and not fully understanding the risks of what's involved with BASE.

If we have better, safer equipment and methods out there for us to use, why WOULDN'T we want to use them?

Personally I think this guy should be given one chance to listen to reason and when and if selfishness prevails and he decides to jump anyways, cut risers, toss his kit in the trash and chain him to a fence somewhere in central Austrailia.




























.

Someone in this thread said that BASE is about freedom. You can take this two ways:

1 - you are free to be a dickhead and jump without taking notice of ANY good intentioned advice that is generally based on hard won experience and . . . . .
2 - you can be free and choose to prevent an accident / fatality / negative interaction at your site. This would involve something like cutting the rig to bits before the guy jumps it. When he gets the shits, just shrug your shoulders in that SkyGod kind of way. . . . I am a BASE pirate / vigilante. Free to roam the world and stop people from bleeding on my cliffs!!!!!!

In the end, if people like that die, who cares???? They quite obviously don't! Hence they are not entitled to hold absolutely no expectation that you should care for them.

Freedom in BASE jumping is purely and utterly about being able to jump objects. IT IS NOT about being free to be a high risk / ignorant / selfish / inwardly focused arsehole. There are ethics involved. The ethics don't inpinge on your freedom. THey actually give you more freedom - - - - to live your life longer - - - - - - - and to share your wonderful experiences with others - - - - - more often - - - - - - and longer.

Dying due to ignorance is NOT freedom - you have robbed yourself of further life experience (unless that is your intention).

Making a site more difficult to jump due to acts of stupidity is nothing to do with freedom. That steals freedom from others. That is selfish. That is capitalistic in a metaphoric kind of way.

Who is responsible for the inevitable accident???? The person involved in the accident. It is that simple. All people have equal and free access to information about BASE jumping. They also have access to opinions, stories, statistics, etc. They have enough resources available to be able to make conscious and correct decisions. They cannot blame video's, courses, FJC's, etc.

If they choose not to . . .

Who cares??????

They don't.

Hence, neither should anyone else.

Pull their reserve handles and cut their main suspension lines.
Then charge double for your rigging services.



The sport is different today. The participants are different. The attitudes are different. People are pulling multi aero's and doing low pulls and roll overs and . . . VERY EARLY in their jump careers. And this is all with a few practice jumps and watching some video's. There is NO humility in that. There is no common sense in that. There is no longevity in that. And if you need convincing, look at the f%&*ing list.............


Yes, disassociation helps.... But not much.

Sorry to hear you're not with Apex anymore, Nick. I hope the split was amicable...

It's hard to believe that someone would take the chance this guy took given what is known today. At the same time, I've had people ask me if they could go jump with me using a Sabre190 knowing I had less than 50 jumps (which wasn't that long ago)...I politely told them that was not a good idea. When people try to convince me it's just like a skydive I let them know the only thing it has in common with skydiving is you use a parachute and the toggles are still used for turning and braking. Other than that it's NOT the same.


If I met someone I didn't know at an exit point with inappropriate gear or attitude, I would tell them it wasn't a good idea and then I'd step back to a good vantage point and turn my camera on. It's their choice. I'm not going to make it for them! If it was a friend I would pretty much do whatever, short of kicking their ass, to convince them not to jump. If they still decided to jump I'd step back to a good vantage point and turn my camera on. Again, it's not my choice...

If I was going to jump something that people were telling me I shouldn't or telling me to do it different then I planned, it would be my decision to listen or not. Anything beyond advice would just piss me off and make me want to prove the person wrong!

For the most part the BASE community realizes they don't know it all and they really don't want someone's death on their hands because of their actions or inactions. Does it really make sense to resort to physical actions to stop someone from doing something because you think it's a bad idea or the result may prove fatal? Isn't this what the government (NPS specifically) is doing that we are all pissed about?

I feel people have the right to live, or die, as they see fit. If they choose to live their life in ignorance and not heed useful information that is readily available, perhaps being yelled in their face, so be it!

I also have the freedom to choose whether I help clean up their remains or not...quite truthfully, I probably would!!!

> Skydiving gear skydiver, complete with collapsible PC, Sabre 170 and 2sec delay from ITW the weekend before the last (7-8th of Oct) weekend...
——————————————————————————————
Just out of curiosity: was this bloke an Italian or a foreigner?

Ditto Tony.

If I was there with them I'd have just said "guys, I have been in the sport # of years, I have # of jumps, and it's my 0.02 that what you are about to do is very, very dumb, however I do not own your lives or this site but it would be a shame for you, your families, and the BASE community if you went in due to a very preventable cause"

If they still wanted to go there is nothing PHYSICALLY I would have done. It's a free world...actually the ITW is on a more free part of the world than the US.

disclaimer: the following is creative fictional literature to illustrate my viewpoint on this, and is in no way personal or directed at anyone, real or imagined.

Yea!! Lynch him! we should have lynch mobs in every major city, like the Brown Shirts of BASE, a roving gang to lay down the law, more feared than the man/police. Then it will get really fun when you go to 'cut his rig' he pulls a weapon then leaves you in that same trash can you were gonna leave his rig in.

I agree with tfelber, ultimately people are free to do as they wish, there's no legal way to stop that. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I heard something about similar dickheads last week... I called #726 to inform him to keep an eye around...
I don't know if these are the same guys, but something here starts to stink...
I'm looking around for more info's...

Carl inspired many to jump, true.
how many are now memorialized on the list?

if he had not died, his opinion would have evolved.
no one knows what he would think today.

so, if you share your stories/pictures/videos with the world, be aware you might be inspiring someone to their death. your video might encourage someone to an accident that leaves their child without a parent.

harsh?
yup, just like most BASE realities...

p.s.
I thought Carl filmed other jumpers, not himself. thus he promoted (possibly wrongly) the sport, rather than himself.

lets turn that 180 degrees,
I THINK that my objects are all pretty typical DK objects. illegal, generally more technical than Perrine..

does that mean i could jump off Perrine whith skydive gear whith out notice?

I dont think so(yes i know it has been done,still depending on who does so it get good or bad speach)

it dosnt matter which object you jump off,jumping whith the wrong gear will give you less chance of a perfect jump,doing so (specialy) at legal sites is bad juju and selfish.

I wont blame ANY to shut down a legal site if they used the right equipment,but if they used the wrong equipment then it wouldnt be so easy to acsept..

Its all about repect to the locals and their object.

I see NO REASSON to use skydive gear on fixed objects,other than look cool at vid

Just my oppinion.

Hello to all,
in my opinion the only way in order to reduce these events is the information. If a person is ignoring or not informed on the BASE is unavoidable that sooner or later he is killed.
Here there are the rules of the ITW http://www.basearco.com, but all do not use Internet in order to inquire themselves, if you had to meet a person whom it wants to jump with a material of skydiving just call the police enforcements, at ITW call 112.

I know that technique is inefficente legal, but if this is an ignoring person wants to say that he does not know the law and probably he listens to you.

There's film and still photos of Carl Boenish BASE jumping, but for the most part he was behind the camera most of the time. The two major times he violated that was his pogo and stilt walking off El Cap, which kind of backfired, when jumpers accused him of turning Yosemite into a granite circus. The next time was allowing himself to be filmed for a television show which turned out to be the trip to Norway that ended his life in 1984.

I was at the USPA get together when Carl was posthumously awarded the USPA Achievement Award. Jean, his widow, was there of course, and I met Carl's mother and sister. There weren't any other BASE jumpers there and BASE isn't mentioned much during the evening. One by one all the USPA bigwigs stood and told their stories about Carl. Mostly, these were about the early days of RW and the large part Carl played in filming it. I wanted to get up and say something further about Carl's involvement in BASE jumping, how his films helped spread the word, how his BASE Magazine filled the void for those just dreaming or starting out.

But I didn't. And I'm sorry for it to this day.

I was a bit intimated and really thought as soon as I started talking about BASE I would be booed off the stage. In those days skydivers and BASE jumpers were in the grips of a cold war. Also, what he did for BASE jumping wasn't as clear in my mind as it is today. Now you can't get me to shut up about Carl . . .

Instead I wandered over to one of the tables filled by the usual mementos of the departed. The first jump certificate he earned at Lake Elsinore in 1960 was there, some baby pictures, and many photographs that PARACHUTIST had run over the years. But there was something else that caught my eye. It was a little red logbook.

I picked it expecting it to be his first one, but it turned out to be his last one. And it was mostly BASE jumps with a skydive here and there. Carl didn't have as many BASE jumps as some at the time. Guys like Phil Smith, Mark Hewitt, and Rich Stein were, as far as numbers, the most experienced. But, I do recall feeling I was holding something very special in my hands.

Carl didn't have all the answers in his day, but he was learning fast, and you can read it in his old magazines. First it was all about the magic and wonder of BASE jumping and Carl could certainly be a little "out there" with the "Zen" of it all. But by the later issues (there were six or seven in all) he was getting serious about being technical and safe.

In fact it's one of the great mysteries surrounding his death. Anyone who participated in any parachute related projects with him will say he was almost too anal about figuring things out beforehand. He was, by profession, a degreed electrical engineer who would analytically study any particular BASE jump for months before actually doing it. The fact he went back up the mountain leaving Jean behind to pack for the trip home after the TV show was in the can, and then jumped from a launch point unknown to him doesn't jibe with the kind of jumper he was.

I'm not suggesting anything funny went on, but the lesson in is death is clear. Stay true to what you know is right because being wrong just once can kill you.

Yes, we gave Carl Boenish a big silver cup with his name on it, but he deserved so much more . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I would describe myelf as BASE-curious and have been put off by a number of the "how to get into BASE" articles I've found so far. The chances of any of you seeing me close to an exit point was radically reduced by the information I was able to find on the internet.

My current impression is that most people who do post things in public are suitably cautious about sites, explaining dangers and referring to lost friends on the List to make it clear to readers what they are letting themselves in for.

I suspect the risk of people using inappropriate gear is not really influenced by the public information. People who would have jumped a Sabre off an object would have done so if the information wasn't around as much as they do now that information is around and they choose not to read and absorb it properly.

tash

Ian,

Firstly, D is not my mentor...the only advise I would take from him is on how to workout....and you could definately use some of his advise on that as well.

Please spare me the you seem like a nice guy BS. You don't know me. I don't care to know you or your politics. Let's just leave it at that.

The original post was made in ernest. I posted what I knew from being there when it happened. Neither was I being insincere or a smartass when I made the second post. But you cannot even acknowledge that possibility. I don't really have any more energy to spend on useless conversations with you...mate.

Kris.

what we need to do or what we should at least try to do is to ensure that local authorities will accept our or Italian Base Association recommendations (written) rules and explanation of what the jumping ITW is!
what are the consequences if one refuse to follow those rules.
So if one die because disobeying rules - no big deal, let it be, pay the ultimate price!! so be it!!!
Inspection shows that this and that happened and , well - RIP and go on!
Pretty much the same as it is going on in climbing, canyoning, hiking....
It may sound harsh what I saying here, but BASE is very very young activity ( 25 years) and of course, therefore is not completely socially accepted.
Same problems some similar now days sports had ( like climbing , free climbing, rafting, paragliding.... )
some countries have no problem w BASE, some has a lot of problem !! ( because they care for our health ..... well )

Obviously sometimes only hard way is the good way!

Time to bring this BS to an end once and for all. Take all the very experienced BASE jumpers you mention and imagine their DADDY when it comes to wingsuit flying.

Yes. Robibird...was kind enough to send me a message and warn me of the dangers of WS BASE at low BASE experience levels after he heard of my jumps last September. In his note he also suggested the way forward. My approach has been to follow that advise with caution.

So when people like you try to give advise that is not asked for...I will have to do the obvious.

Kris.

Wow, 3 pages of Posts on how to control unethical behavior on legal Italian BASE Wall.
.
The only way to stop the problem like what was Posted in the start of this Thread. Would be to choke the life out of BASE with regulations. Regulations that have some sort of consequences when the are broken.
When you see a BASE violator going to the exit for a jump. 'You' the concerned citizen and BASE jumper yourself. Grab your cell-phone, dial up the BASE Police and Nark-them-Off for making a bandit jump on your legal BASE site.
You then give the Officer of BASE laws information of there description and which way they ran so he could chase them down and confiscate there BASE gear. Then give them a substantial monetary-$$$$ punishment also.
* Congratulations *, You are now the person that BASE jumpers dislike the most.
Also: think long and hard all the American BASE jumpers out there Posting there views of proper etiquette and ways to handle people who will fuckup there health and the possible access of that Italian BASE object.
I think you will see that this is only a 'Small Taste' of what will come to happen. If they ever let loose NPS objects such as Cap or Zion. When desire and freedom drive the BASE jumpers who are foolish and Exit with inappropriate Equipment, Knowledge and adequate Training.
-

you think thats bad? you should have seen the guy doing his first wing suit jump ever with a v-1 off the itw, and he had a velocity freepacked in a racer! it was the day after the guy with the sabre! it was rad! he swooped the road right under the powerlines and landed in the parking lot!

All that talk about FREEDOM. Has anybody of you thought about the basic principles of non-solitary humany live?

Welcome to SOCIETY.

We all have our own ways of thinking and everybody is his own best friend, so when there's many of us humans in a restricted area, society rules are setup to prevent us from constantly pissing us off and finally killing us selves. So in a society, on man's freedom ends where another man's freedom starts.
In the beginning there weren't many jumpers, so this wasn't an issue. Everybody was an outlaw and the society were the others. Now there are so many of us that base-society starts to build up. That has happenend in every other human gathering and I don't think you can do anything to prevent it. If you don't like it, stay away from the rules be staying out of the society.
ITW is in the boundaries of the base-society, so your actions will affect other people's freedom. If you go in there, other jumpers will be affected.
If you want to be free to do whatever you want and to be as stupid as you want to be, why not be a man about it and go find your own cliff outside the base-society's boundaries? There's tons of cliffs out there and most of them are in remote areas. If you go in there, nobody will be affected. Don't call for society's help in case your judgement failed, because you refused society's knowledge and advice in the first place and thought you were so much smarter than everybody else.
But I'm sure the guys who did that smart stunt and were too cool to listen would have expected the support from the society in case they needed help. 3 and a half twists, wall strike and hanging on some snagged suspension lines half way up the wall with broken bones - do you think his buddies would have set out on mission to get him outta there with ropes themselves or would they have called in a heli? With all the consequences for other jumpers?
I'm not the police and I'm not calling the police on other people either, but before you claim to be free to do whatever you want, you should think first.

Well, we all have to admit that this is a technically nice stunt...

So you even follow Robi's advice (the daddy of ws base as you put it) with caution. Most people would follow that advice pretty much to the letter, but then you seem to know best.

The best advice is nearly always not asked for. Only an arrogant fool would selectively listen to just the advice they had sought. The very notion implies that you are always capable of pre-empting and foreseeing all the potential problems and pitfalls and so only need to ask to confirm what you already suspect.

That's a fool talking, but then it seems you are a fool after all.

****Note to anyone on an exit point with Kris here....if you see he's left a pull up cord in his pins, wait till he asks you before you give him that advice to remove it.****

Keep digging that hole you're in Kris.

Ian,

Stop. Now.

That's your warning.

You think that a person who only listens to advice they actively solicit isn't a fool Tom?

I'd say that was the epitome of foolish.

ian


i think i can guess what's coming next.

Actually, what I think is that calling someone a fool is a personal attack, and is not allowed on these forums.

I have neither knowledge of, nor an opinion about, the underlying situation.

I think when Kris said his approach was to follow that advise "with caution," he was saying he was following it and now being very cautious, as well. Or at least that's how I read it. I didn't read that to mean that he was only selectively following robibird's advise. Seems like maybe you are seeing only what you want to see because of some personal issues you have with Kris as a result of his past actions. It also sounds like he has acknowledged he fucked up in the past and is now doing things the right way, so maybe you should just let it go and move on. Or maybe you just really get off on cracking people.

No. I'm seeing exactly what was written. You are the one doing the 'between the lines' interpretation and second guessing what he might have meant as opposed to what he wrote.

I have NO - repeat NO - personal history with Kris, beyond meeting him at his friend's funeral - so there is no personal malice or score settling here.

However, hearing him stick in his 2 cents with regards the sabre170 jumper not listening to experienced advice makes me laugh at the hypocracy as he did a similar dangerous thing with exactly the same attitude only a year or so ago. Okay, so it wasn't Robi from phoenix fly he ignored when advice was offered. It was James from phoenix fly. That's the kind of people he's dismissing when he says


so forgive me if i don't agree that he's learned from his past arrogance and has moved on. The above quote says it all.

I'm flattered to be lumped in with amazing, experienced and talented BASE jumpers like James, but frankly don't deserve that accolade. James however HAS earned his airmiles and deserves a little bit more respect than Kris has and continues to show. Especially when that advice was given to prevent him killing himself.

And what about alluding that someone is overweight?

That's only ok if it's me or your mom.


In all seriousness, there is a major difference between saying someone acted foolish and calling them a fool.

youve met kris once and your basing all your judgement on what youve heard from other people...You sure seem keen to attack kris, don't be so quick to judge, without delving into both sides a little more thouroughly.

I apologize for that Ian.

Didn't think you would feel so bad about it that you complained to your friends.

Sorry.

Kris.

Tom didnt you see my post were i called you fat?

Please dont call me mom

Now back to tropic

I'm very sensitive about it. The moment i read that, i got on the phone to rally the troops for support. However your apology means a huge amount to me so thanks and i'll tell the guys to lay off.

For what it's worth i feel the need to apologise too. Having given it some thought, i realise now that taking a wing suit off ITW with no prior BASE jumping experience is a good idea after all, and that ignoring the advice of several more experienced jumpers, and the wishes of the local BASE community, by going ahead despite their well advertised and well meaning guidlines for jumping this site, is actually the way forward for the future of this site and for cementing positive relations with those very people who play host to us visitors.

Thanks for showing me (and the guy with the sabre170 and others like him) the way to do it.

You're a true inspiration, so sorry too for calling you foolish and arrogant, when plainly, you are not.

ian

Can you please bicker in your own thread? Almost 20% of the posts in this thread are you guys bickering. You both posted thoughtful responses on the topic. Please stay with the topic as a favor to the rest of us.

Here is the topic starter post. Please stay with the topic. Thanks in advance,
take care,
space

"Skydiving gear skydiver, complete with collapsible PC, Sabre 170 and 2sec delay from ITW the weekend before the last (7-8th of Oct) weekend. There were 2, I did not hear which canopy the other jumped but that he did the same delay with a collapsible. What shall we do? Shall we do anything? What should you do if you see anyone with this config gearing up at the exit point? Should we do anything?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Take care,
space

I can't go back in time and not jump from the ITW. Ofcourse if any of the Italian BASE jumpers feel that I am not welcome there. I will respect that.

Kris.
P.S: Sorry Tracey. This is my last post to this thread.

Come on Space? I'm 100% with you that this topic (of individuals doing obviously dumb things off prime, peachy, legal objects & selfishly jeopardising that object for the other 99.99% of thoughtful jumpers) is really important for the international BASE community to debate fully and frankly.

BUT...

There are two reasons why I (we (?)) read this forum:

1. Pure entertainment.
2. Education and thought provoking debate.

(Very much in that order).

Kris and Ian's exchanges satisfy these criteria perfectly.

Hear me out, please Space?

You ask us for opinion on how to handle this situation where someone does something so obviously cretinous off a beautiful, legal, but not totally bomb proof object.

The forth reply is a jaw dropping and undeniably judgemental statement from Kris. I actually fell off my seat:


After I'd picked myself up off the floor and double checked the poster's name, I nearly busted my guts laughing. Fair enough, I thought: people change with time, education and experience; Kris is totally different to the Kris that intended to fly a wing suit from ITW a year ago for his second BASE jump, ever. He later told us that our "shouting at the exit point" "made" them (later) choose to fly their wing suits along, close to the wall to the Helicopter landing area, to avoid being seen by us.

Now I can't imagine that anybody is going to need the pure, unadulterated irony of this situation explained to them. Ian points out this irony (and it is important, as well as highly entertaining) and Kris responds by taking a cheap shot at Ian's well built physique. He further invokes the standard "BS", "You don't know me", "regional politics" line that routinely gets wheeled out when somebody has done something stupid and/ or highly unethical and is completely unprepared to accept any responsibility for their actions.

That had me hooting with laughter (thanks Kris).

But enough laughing with Kris: let me say why I think this is important. Besides, Kris has made it abundantly clear that he has a far more impressive "Daddy" than poor old me.

This apparent deviation is important to the original debate because Kris still totally denies any responsibillity for his outrageously bad choices.

He seems to regret the episode being brought up, but doesn't seem to see any wrong in his own early approach to BASE. He readily denounces the muppet with the Sabre, but very obviously still can't accept that he'd done something easily as stupid off that very same wall.

So why wouldn't we expect exactly the same attitude from Mr Sabre 170, 2s delay with collapsible PC? He clearly thought it a good enough idea to follow through. He didn't die, this time. Must have been a perfectly valid way to spend an afternoon at this unregulated wall, in this unregulated sport of ours, full of happy free spirits. No? So how to deal with it, then?

I've been in that situation and it's really unpleasant to have to deal with. "Have to??" you ask. Yes, have to: I have to live with myself. Some totally hypothetical young knob jockey makes it clear that he's about to embark on a project that is apparently 100% likely to earn him an early entry on the list. You can see the entry already. I don't know about others, but I can't just look the other way. Sorry.

Anyway, I digress. Back to a highly relevant situation that I have indeed experienced: young skydiver, full of fear and guided by an almost equally inexperienced jumper (who does not accept any responsibility for bringing him to the exit point and lending out his wingsuit). You get angry. Excuses and exceptions are made by our new wingsuit BASE jumper, but they intend to go ahead anyway. You get more angry. Consequently there is some "shouting at the exit point" and the offending wingsuit is removed and safely jumped down in someone elses jacket.

You give the wingsuit back knowing full well that they're almost certainly going straight back up there to jump their wingsuits. Nothing has been achieved in the long run. You decide that (although it certainly leaves a bad taste), you did the right thing. Now you will simply avoid being on the exit point at the same time. What more can you do??

People have even had their rigs taken off them. Full stop. There's always some fucking prick on eBay that'll sell them another alledgedly BASE ready rig, no questions asked, no further instruction required.

Anyone who thinks that this is an irrelevant or silly bitchy debate is not jumping in the modern McBASE world.

Tonight I went to jump one of my local objects. It is a fantastic object, perfect for absolutely any experience level. You can jump it safely slider up and down and it's been jumped almost nightly from the very earliest days of BASE. I have done about 130 jumps off it, my mate has about 300 off it. With 1100 BASE jumps between us off all sorts of shit, all round the world, it's still one of our very favourites. It was loved by the UK BASE community.

Approximately 7 months ago, one of the new jumpers attempting to fly wingsuits from ITW (there were two on that "accelerated wingsuit BASE course") went in at our local, with a fucking pull up chord tied around his pilot chute. He'd been taught this redundant trick by his equally young and free spirited "mentor", who still to this day refuses any responsibility for teaching him that and not gear checking him.

Following a lengthy program with the power company adding barbed wire and carrying out long overdue maintenance, tonight we had to walk away: The object is now (as of tonight) literally festooned with high tech, high quality infra red cameras and motion sensors, all tied in to a very impressive looking box with many flashing multi coloured LEDs that transmits the (no doubt) high quality output to God knows where. I fully expect a reception committee to be waiting for me when I land.

Overnight the object has been transformed by two young, free spirits: it used to be the most forgiving and (at night) accepting of objects. Now you have to accept the bust factor that would normally be inherent in a jump from a high profile down town building owned by a cash rich conglomerate.

>>Oh, and Nick, if you start to feel like the lone ranger, remember that Kleggo and Rick H. are still regulars here.<<

The Three Stooges . . .

NickD
BASE 194

back to some details..the jumpers in question were both italian, hell they might have lived right down the street?Maybe they were more local than any of us in this conversation.
One jumper had base gear, and it was deduced that he took a very short delay because he was over the bar at give or take 600 meters, exactly how short no one could have been sure. the dude w/ the sabre was only seen as he was turning to land behind the hill in front of the bar..We all looked at eachother w/ questioning looks" that looked like a skydiving canopy" some jokes were made and 20 min. later our observations were confirmed when he hiked down. Full skidiving rig, jumpsuit, and all. The other jumper was jumping base gear.

Living in proximity to an object does not make you a "local" in the BASE sense of the word automatically. Were that the case, then any non-jumper would be considered a "local." A more complete definition of the term would be "local BASE jumper," which definition likely excludes someone with no previous BASE experience, and also likely excludes someone so out of touch with appropriate BASE gear and technique as to take a skydiving rig for a 2 second delay from a terminal cliff.

Further, even being a "local BASE jumper" does not give one an absolute right to damage the access of other jumpers. Even were you an active jumper living in Twin Falls, for example, I'd say it's a bad idea to do something like setting up a trampoline in the roadway and running across lanes of traffic to spring off it for a launch.

This stuff is golden. Haven't seen this much off topic ranting, raving, preaching and bullshit in a while. Like Blinc used to be. RIP.

PS. PLEASE will someone mention Robin Heid?

I agree w/ what you say about being a local. I'm not saying it gives him a right to do what he wants, but he is less likely to listen to people telling him what to do if he lives there, and has maybe been jumping that cliff for 15 years w/ skydiving gear. The delay is unknown. No one that witnessed this saw the actual delay.
I am not saying it's his right or anything, just trying to clear up the speculation about what happened, and who the people were.

well, if he landed behind the hill (seen from the bar) he must have done a MUCH bigger delay, as a 9-cell-zp-Sabre surely has a much better glide than any base-canopy out there and with those you easily make the lz after a 15 sec delay.
of course unless he had a snivelly opening with 10 twists and the slider blocked above them

Is not Irony the best teacher?
Kris it seems, has seen both sides from the inside. Whereas I, like most of us, can only see the outside of the other side. Kris has the most potential so far in this thread, to give us an understanding of what goes on in the other side and how to best deal with it IMO.
One can get more from using a situation like this as a resource, than one can get from bickering about it.
Hope this helps,
space

I can speak on behalf of the Italian locals.

If you follow the rules here: http://www.basearco.com/ and use your common sense you will be welcomed with open arms - as many visiting BASE jumpers have found.

If you don't follow the rules then the locals will be less welcoming...

ITW is a unique jewel in the BASE jumping crown. 4000' of WS altitude beneath you, a grass LZ and a bar. I am grateful to be able to jump ITW each and everytime.

Protect your own health and this great object, please.

Long flights,

J

thats all whats to say to this messy discussion...
james brings it to the point.
we need to respect the rules to keep the leagl sites open....everybody of us did stupid shit or made the wrong dicisson from time to time, and thats ok...
we try to be flying humans and thats supid enough
but a behavior like that bloddy sabre hero put all the other BASE jumper in the wrong light....

i like to know where this jumper usually make his skydives, then i visit this dropzone and jump with a baserig an wingsiut and do infront of the tandempassengers and students a fucking deep lowpull......
then i want to see his reaction .....

i think he starts to tell me that this behavior is not ok and jadajadajada....

bahhh...whatever.....

It says don't jump in winds higher than 2 meters per second. By my rough calculations that's about 5 MPH, is that correct?

Edit to add: Does that acceptable magnitude very depending on the angle of the wind (I don't know the object).

No, it's 4.473873 MPH...

he might think it's cool sh*t and ask you to do it again so he can get it on video

Deal with it by providing messy car batteries as packing weights for the offenders.

It certainly can be.

I absolutely don't think Kris is a bad person and I definitely have no bad feelings about him, personally.

If Kris has any suggestions on how to reduce the frequency of such incidents, based on his own insight, I for one would be very interested.

Regarding 460's car battery suggestion: does this go some way to explaining why I've found car batteries in the packing areas at the two best known European tourist BASE stops?

piisfish.......probably you are right.....

  

Unfortunately as Spacey has pointed out, the acid from those darn batteries gets on the ground in the packing area and is hazardous to everyone else too.

James,

Can't think of better words to describe the ITW.

Some of this stuff is better spoken offline so I am sending you a PM. I promise no more talk about my crotch .

Kris.

I would also take this opportunity to point out that there is a "Ground Launch" area on the mountain, paraglider pilots along with a great friend and beginner BASEr with a Stiletto, local, launches from. He normally does nice swoops with his stiletto in to the LZ. Please don't give him crap.
take care,
space

So, Here is my take on the best course of intervention that I have derived from my experiences and this thread.
Warn them and video not only the jump but the warning as well.

If one doesn't have video, then your word should be good enough since there is no one to contest what you say if they meet with less than optional landing situations.

Jumpers have the same rights a skiers or climbers on mountains in Italy AFAIK. The right to be rescued from peril at no costs. Doesn't matter if you are stupid, ignorant or a pioneer. But that does not mean that the place cannot be closed down. And ITW had a closure for 6 months after the first fatality. The locals had quite a few meetings with the sport ministry and as a result the rules of the ITW http://www.basearco.com,
came to be.
The word from the Ministry was: "You control it or we control it by prohibiting it. Here is your second chance".
5 fatalties since that first, Some Heli rescues and such.
I know one of the rescue guys by name. We are hanging on a thread there. Document the warnings to show that we are hanging with our part of the deal is my opinion.
What do you think?
take care,
space

Payback for Gary Peek,
I used you!
Payback
Attention Skydivers: Jumping a SKYDIVING rig from objects is not just stupid, but stupid, and harms our sport.

I'm putting this in The BASE Zone for a reason, and that is to educate skydivers who may not know this important fact.

Sunday morning I woke up early at a famous BASE site and found friends getting ready for a jump. When the jumpers were almost geared up, some of the jumpers were calling to a guy over on the gear up area who was packing a SKYDIVING rig and who had no BASE jumps.

It turns out he missed the load, which is the only good thing that I can say about this incident.

A SKYDIVING rig ???

I walked over and asked him why he planned to do that, and he said something to the effect of "getting his blood pumping" or something like that.

I asked if he had informed the the Sports Ministry that what he was attempting to do was stupid and he said that the object "seemed to be OK with it". (Somehow I doubt that.)

I asked to never again consider doing something like that. He never did acknowledge his stupidity, but I could tell he knew better.

As I was walking away in disgust I saw Jane Blow from the IBA who frequents the ITW. I told her, “Jane, I have a little job for you!" She gave me a slightly suspicious smile, wondering what on earth could be going on that early.

I told her about the guy and she went over and admonished him for a few minutes. She said he didn't really look up at her. (No surprise there). Maybe he didn't want to see at the "IBA" on her shirt.

She said that he told her that what he planned to do was safer than swooping the pond!

Now, the point I want to make to skydivers is that if you see someone planning to jump a SKYDIVING rig from an object you need to do something! No one on that load did. Is it because they didn't know better, or because they didn't care?

For some reason people seem to think of cliffs as one of the SKYDIVING aircrafts, but I assure you they are not! They are an object and must be treated like one.

The other point I would like to make, is that if a person wants to lie and cheat enough, they can probably get away with something like that at the ITW (and perhaps other objects), because there aren't enough people to notice everything that goes on.

This is our sport, folks. We need to educate ourselves and keep each other from doing stupid things.
________________________________________
Signature Line:
It's not about rules - it's about safety. G.P. (parodied by base283 but rightfully so)

This might work a little better


Edit: There seems to be a bug at the moment. It's probably temporary. An extra http is being added to the front of the URL.

Cheers!
Thanks

nice way to make a point. We are different sports, related indeed, but not that close.

good point Precisely, Documentation and 'protection of Your own' of what you already have is the only way because there will be no/little consequences for ill actions of the abusers. Self governing is the only way. Government can never regulate and control as efficient as the private sector. But once you loose control to a government agency for regulation & control it will be almost impossible to get it back.
.

will be there with you...I can take the cutaway and throw it somewhere...after punching him, we can talk, maybe...

no need to through away the handel and get the italians on your back,punch his nose cut his main and pop his reserve,then jump whith his cut handel,get your second gear up again just in time to kick his arse and pop his reserve once more(i guess he can pack such thing) before you jump again,just in time before the high winds arrive,give him back the handel as he gets down and tell him that using skydive gear in BASEworld is bad juju

well it might work unless he simply does a unpacked from up there...

Payback? No way man, I'm glad you took what I wrote and changed it for that purpose, which is, educating people about what not to do. It's a nice use of words.

(Now if I can just figure out what ITW and IBA are.)

and it was not the first one who jumped with skydiving equipment...
take a look on the continuum 1 DVD... italy section...
...and surely not the last....
anyway....

stay safe and come clean...

Well, I would never say skydiving gear is as well suited for bigwalls as BASE-specific equipment, but.....

My first 130 jumps off Kjerag was with a modified skydiverigg and Raven 4 packed in a bag. Not a single linetwist. Than I got "safe", got me a BASE canopy and a BASE rigg, clamps, and a hell-of-a-lot neater packjob.... and now I enjoy a few linetwists every year.

I miss the old Kjerag. Let us bring back the old gear, and put Tracy in the boat. Let's go retro in 2007! ;-)

/Micke
Team Bautasten

My first 130 jumps off Kjerag...

Coming back to the thread.

BASE or not BASE, legal or not legal, shouldn't one's profoundly self-destructive action be prevented just because we are humans?

We (collectively) do not allow other people to (insert your favourite recless activity)...just because of the impact on the individual and society. No difference here. We are all humans and shouldn't we respect other people's lives as much as we do ours?

Ravens are great. Their grade for use in base: A

Or....

Shouldn't we allow people to decide their own fate just because we are humans?

The "just because we are human" argument is used a lot, but I don't think it's very practical. It can be misused too easily.


I'll insert one for you: "jump of cliffs in NPS land"; still agree?


Jup. I respect other people's lives so much, if they want to take theirs, they can have it!

Of course, reality isn't that simple. Whenever somebody goes in, there's an emotional and recovery cost. Th question is, where does responsible behaviour turn into recklesness. I would draw the line at doing a two second delay with a Sabre 170. Doing a 30 second delay with a Sabre 170? I'm not sure sure anymore. It's not my thing, but it's definitely less reckless than the two second delay.

It's a grey area, and the second we stop this guy, we hand others the right to stop us.

Education, yes. Prevention, neah. Let him die...

Point is, just because some equipment is not BASE specific doesn't mean you can't, or shouldn't, jump it. I wouldn't jump a big cliff with a Sabre, no, but that's not because it can't be done relatively "safe" (supertrack, pull a little higher to leave room for reserve), but because I choose to jump more suitable equipment.

"MyTwoCents: It's a grey area, and the second we stop this guy, we hand others the right to stop us."

Agree!

/Micke
Team Bautasten

Agreed. It's the best way in the long run, natural selection is highly underrated.

So, if I am feeling suicidal, I have every right to just jump in front of a train . . . . . . . .and fuck up that drivers psychology and life forever???

BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

What if I want to knock down a building full of people. I have the right to fly a plane into it.

BULLSHIT AGAIN!!!!!

Certainly, if you want to end it, it is your choice. But you DO NOT have a right to do it how you please and when you please!!! Other people are involved. Just as it is selfish and a pain in the arse to stop people from doing something (i.e regulation), it is just as selfish to force the outcome of your actions on others.

As you said, you would more than likely hang around to pick up the pieces, as I and many others have done. But sometimes the person just do no deserve it.

Freedom is for EVERYone, not just for ONEone.

ps.. this is not directed at you, it is a general comment for all.

Well said.

As much as I hate regulation. Fact is, as time goes by and people become more ignorant and more hurried, they need to be managed. So we either have lots more people and regulation. or we have less people and no regulation.

The juggernaut is rolling. The second option is gone.

I thought DK was a long way North. A bit closer to Arctic than Tropic!!!

And what is wrong with fat people???

You skinny blokes will never realise that wing loading is great for improving the performance of your canopy!!! Faster, faster, faster.....

Except in those tight arse landing areas with deep braked approaches.

Ouch!!

Someone wants told me "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit".

Then I thought, I might be dumb, but I'm having fun.

Seriously, regarding good advice and ignorance. Its all a personal choice. Probably best left for personal conversations. But it is also beneficial to have this in the forums occassionally. Why?

Because there will be more people who just don't want to listen. If they have some subconscious need to belong to future BASE society, they may actually heed the advice purely to belong. This may save a life.

Then there will always be those who just don't give a f%^%. And I don't care what anyone else says, when the eulogies are rolling and "he was always a safe guy" is spoken, I'm calling bullshit!!!!!! But I am not going to worry too much about it.


CHOICE WAS MADE. CONSEQUENCE WAS HAD.

I am really sorry to hear that. It was a beauty. I remember jumping that in the late nineties. I came back for my third of the evening (acutally early morning),and I could see two suspicious looking characters standing below (BASE jumpers of course ). So I pretended to be a security guard and started getting up them. After about 5 minutes I pulled out my stash bag and asked them if they wanted to join me for a jump. You should have seen the expression on their faces. PRICELESS!!!!!.

Back to the point. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have posted my thoughts elsewhere in this thread. Freedom is for everyone, not just for one. Their selfish behaviour has stolen an object, jumps, good times, a better learning environment for newer jumpers in that area of the world, etc, from others. Stealing is a crime. There is consequence to crime. Waving the flag of freedom around as the object owners are putting the final touches to a new high security system IS FUCKING BULLSHIT. It is NOT and never will be freedom.

That sounds too much like you have put a lot of thought into it???? When do we get to see the video?

Frogger BASE.

Roberto Heidolloni was the guy jumping the Sabre!!!!!!

That's Robin's 14th generation cousin. Robin comes from a family of spice sailors and pirates who landed at Perris (tidal wave pushed their boat inland).

Confucious say: "Man who cannot learn from a fool, is a bigger fool himself".

One of my personal favourites.

Why? Because I try to teach people things. And if you don't learn from me, you're the bigger fool!!!!

Tom - do I get into trouble for calling myself a fool???

That's a cute way of saying "BOUNCE".

Space has made it clear. The locals are considering closure. Why do we have to make the site stressful and illegal. There are enough of those elsewhere in the world. Lets keep this one relaxed, fun, free, etc.

People's - if that is not freedom. Then I do not know what is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the locals are asking is to come prepared and have the right tools.

To unclecharlie95 and all the Italians, grazie per la vostra ospitalità.

I thought about saying this in this thread earlier, but figured it wouldn't really help anyone.

Freedom is the right to do anything you want, as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom.

I think that's the fest way to look at it.

Double entendre...

I highlighted 130 not because you made that many jumps with skydiving equipment, but because you
name these 130 as your first 130. How many more with BASE equipment?

To easy...Freedom is not a right to do what you want, it the position wher you can make choices and take responsibility for them. When you take responsibility for your life, you take responsibility for other people. That a great responsibility.

I said responsibility so many time that it looks like Iam making a point to make a point. What's the point - to make a point?

...does not impinge other people's freedom. ...

Imagine you go in. How many people are affected. Starting from people who pick up your (literally) pieces...ending at people whom you will not be able to affect in 30 years, because you took your freedom too literally?

ps. edited to clean up spelling and grammar

I don't see it. The only ones affected are his family(generally speaking of anyone, not Dave specifically), and that is on him. Other than that it is 1 less car on the road, 1 less worker in an office building; the world is no worse off, and even if the world or society was worse off, what right do they have to make a claim on that one person's life such that it limits that person's freedom? To make such a claim is selfish, greedy and does infringe on the freedom of others, which insidiously errodes their quality of life, little by little. Kinda like socialism of freedom and liberty. Just my 2 cents,

TVPBs posts above say a lot about that.

But for example of impact, paramedic collects a body. Policemen make investigation. Doctor makes pronounces death, makes autopsy. Funeral, effect on friends. Classmates, coworkers, family (e.g nephews that will not have an uncle) work not done, taxes not paid. It's a bit like butterfly effect - or karma.

At the end, your are right, society has no right to expect anything from you. It is your responsibility to use your freedom right.

You (not personally, but as figure of speech) can make a choice of jumping reclessly or be a pillar of BASE community. Which is more satisfying, extra rush from ultra low pull or becoming someone's mentor?

It is a better chance to keep jumping, too

you sure are preachy..maybe you should do some jumps before you decide how others should play?You might end up being into low pulls, and gainers off 200' a's?Ya never know?

Making a base jump is taking a risk of infringing on them though, not directly infringing. And them saying I can't do something, because their is a chance I might infringe on them, is infringing on me.

Even if it sounds preachy, isn't it that way? "Screw everybody, I am playing my game" and "I truly enjoy the freedom to pursue my interests and help others" are not exactly the same thing.


I don't think I am trying to tell people how to play, only to observe that the freedom is a bit more than the "nobody tells me what to do".

For those who steadfastly believe in "Nobody tells me what to do":
- how about I stand in front of your kids naked and start hacking myself to bits?
- how about I piss on your head and shit at the table you are eating at?
- how about I trip you over when you are doing a running exit?
- how about I do a Fandango (swap your canopy for some laundry)?
- how about . . . . . . . . .

My point is, there is freedom, and then their is freedom.
One involves total anarchistic, masochistic, sadistic, evil, unsocial behaviour . . . .
The other involves having respect for other people, society, etc. The second option does not mean you have to listen to your mum and stop jumping, it means you should listen to some good intentioned advice and prolong your life.

Get if through your heads, the Italians WANT IS TO JUMP THEIR CLIFF. With the one proviso that we respect the sport, ourselves, the local authorities, and them be being reasonable human beings and following a few VERY SIMPLE safety rules. Its a no brainer. . . . except for those people with no brains!!!!!

I am preachy too.

And I was pulling lower than you are today when you were still in BASE nappies.

So what is your point??????

Wow you got some mean and obscure fantasy...

Guilty as charged.

I was only making a point - and not being very subtle.

Sad thing is, I actually know a guy who would do most of the things on that list.

Now, he is one free spirit.....


p.s. If anyone takes me seriously, I will end up in an institution.

That's a nugget