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break settings - deep or not to deep - that's the question ;-)
any comments?

ps. b is 60-70 m.

Interesting you should bring this up as I have been thinking about this recently.

Here are two great articles…..
http://www.blincmagazine.com/cms/article_73.html

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21532&highlight=dwain+deep+brake

These days after speaking to a few of the top base jumpers this summer, I am re-thinking my DBS. One jumper whose opinion I really respect, I don’t want to name him as he did not say I could publicly quote him, has not used deep breaks for around 3 years.

On my Mojo, I use my shallow setting on all objects as I have found that it stalls too easy in DBS. On my troll I use the DBS as it responds ok. I guess you really have to spend the time dialling in your canopy and get the setting that works for you and your configuration. You should be prepared to change setting dependant on object and conditions.

I think that in the past it was recommended that you should have it set close to the stall point, my feelings is that this is not good if you cant get the response from the rear risers and that you should have more forward speed and better response on the risers. Be prepared to get on both rear risers in the event of a 180 and then let up on one to initiate the turn away…

My thoughts anyway….
G

I figure you should set the DBS to as deep as possible to inflate without stall, but

Do riser turns respond less quickly with deeper break settings? I wouldn't think so. Now I'm gonna have to skydive my BlackJack some more to play with it. Any comments from experienced canopy pilots are appreciated.

This is a great example of the good that can come from this forum.

u r going pca of 70 m, as i remember u have vents, deep brakes, what is the landing?

trees and other b :(
don't know yet but just in case i ask ;)

urs come to poland and flick some chimney, b and a with me ;)

If you got to ask here then please go back to the that legal span and make a few more jumps.

I just hope you are either very bored or just trolling.

yes my boss. of course. thanks for good advice.


ps. you trolling now, not me

There are lots of different opinions regarding dbs on low objects...
What is your opinion on this subject? Why do you think it is so obvious that you assume that this a troll?

Yea, what he said. Good luck!
Later
Blair

Seemed like a reasonable enough question actually.

With a PCA or static line jump, the heading performance (all other factors remaining equal - like wind and body position) tends to be very good. This being the case, and the fact that low jumps often necessitate you to be controlling a flying canopy quicker, the question is, how much response time in the event of a serious off heading are you willing to trade for a canopy that is flying forward.

In some low static line jumps the strike potential is highest directly below you, like trees, ledges, rooftops, builders catch nets, lamposts etc,so the last thing you need is a DBS canopy sinking straight down after opening.A canopy in shallow brakes, combined with quick release of the brakes immediately on opening is the better bet on certain jumps IMO and well worth the trade. On such jumps, the thing going through my mind is not 'hope this doesn't 180' but more 'need to get this thing flying forward ASAP'.

Conversely, on some static line/PCA jumps, the strike hazard is sometimes directly ahead of you after opening (like a building facing you, or a lampost) and the most important thing is to get the canopy turned L or R before it makes any significant forward movement. On such jumps, a DBS combined with an immediate riser turn and then releasing the brakes could be the way forward. On these jumps i even feel that a slight headwind can be advantageous, although again, this has to factored in very carefully.

Personally I feel BASE isn't the place to be steadfast and dogmatic about configurations. Every jump is so different that factors and conditions which would be tantamount to suicidal on one object are the absolute way forward on others.

Could you explain why you felt that was a trolling question? Am i missing something?

ian

In my opinion:

The definition of a proper deep brake setting is:

a) One that gives the canopy minimum forward speed on opening;

while also:

b) Allowing the canopy in set brakes to respond to riser input.


If your canopy is stalling when you give riser input, then in my opinion you don't have a proper deep brake setting. A setting that yields a stall on riser input is too deep.

I have to admit, I thought the same thing. I certainly wouldn't bust out a B if I didn't know for myself. And if two people thought it, maybe its a valid thought.

I mean no disrespect either.

My experience has been that a quick release of the brakes can surge the canopy (and jumper) down (and possibly into the ground). I think that a better technique is to pop the brakes all the way down (so that your toggles hold the same tension as the brake setting did), and then gradually let them back up, to keep the wing level. This way, you can flare from part brakes whenever you get to the ground.

Add in the pendulum effect on a SL (sometimes you have to launch somewhat aggressively) and if you time it just right you can hook yourself straight in without making a turn.

I utterly agree. By quick release I meant getting on the suckers fast.

I must admit, in the heat of the moment i often let the toggles up too quick and get exactly just that, a surge and dive. On low jumps that can pound you in for sure.

I haven't enough low static line jumps with shallow brake configuration to draw any definite conclusions but i suspect that quickly releasing the brakes (as you described) from DBS as opposed to SBS would create more of a dive and surge.

ian

Yeah, but by canvassing opinions on a bona fide technical matter where there is no absolute right and wrong way ,is a good way of gauging whether it's worth at least considering.

For sure, if this was your first B then i would question whether it such a low jump which necessitated the original question was a good idea. However, this might be tobiasz' 10th building - just the first one that required a reconsideration of the brake settings.

ian

Its part of the byproduct of working through the internet as a discussion medium I guess.

Regardless - if it were me and somone gave me that reply, I wouldn't just discount it any less than I'd discount anything someone might recommend for a jump of a given type. I take all opinions into account.

Also - if it were his 10th building as you suggest, again, shouldn't this individaul have a good base of knowledge to work from for B jumps? One would hope so, but again, maybe that is just my opinion.

Anyhow - off track back on, you need to experiment with your brake settings in an environment where you don't have a solid object behind you to really answer the question as every canopy driver combined with a canopy is a different ball of wax that should be handled carefully.

whats your lz? you need a long or short ride?

do you need to sink it in or can you make a "skydive alike"landing?

60-70m i usaly would take dbs,i will only use the shallow brakes when i think im near the limit to be abel to pop my toogles.60-70m/200-230-240ft whith a pca you should have enough time.

Screamer,sounds like you have some fun sl objects,hope you share some day

A desire to ask questions and expand the knowledge base (pun intended) one works from is not necessarily a sign of limited experience. It's foolish to assume that you know all, regardless of your level of previous experience.

In other words, if it were his 10th, or even 100th B, I'd applaud his willingness to discuss and learn things, and his desire to seek advice from many sources.

No Faber, it is DTM and sabre210 who have/open all the nice technical urban stuff. I just get to tag along some times.

Does anyone know for sure if riser turns respond less quickly with deeper break settings?

Like so many things, it depends. It mostly depends on exactly how deep the brake settings are. If they are too deep, the canopy will stall straight down and not respond at all. It can also depend on the make of the canopy, the presence of bottom skin inlets, and (depending on which of the below you are asking) on the wind.

It also depends on what you mean by "quickly." Are you asking:

1) Will a deeper brake setting increase the amount of time it takes for the canopy to complete a turn of 90 degrees? (my opinion is yes)

or;

2) Will a deeper brake setting increase the amount of forward (toward the object) distance a canopy travels before completing a turn of 90 degrees? (my opinion is no, in fact the opposite)

or;

3) Will a deeper brake setting increase the amount of altitude a canopy consumes before completing a turn of 90 degrees? (my opinion is yes)

I meant 1 and 3. If I'm on a skydive and I hold my toggles to where my DBS are (with one hand) and pull a rear, then do the same from holding the toggles at SBS, will the canopy turn faster.

And if anyone knows what will be the difference in altitudes lost from a faster or slower turn, in DBS or SBS.

A B is a serious object read solid. If you got to come here to ask how to jump it then you need more training as simple as that.

Said that, someone told me about the three-break-setting set up (PM if you want to know who).

The factory shallow for slider up.

The factory deep for very short delay slider down (CR canopies).

A third calibrated DBS to give you the least amount of forward speed for longer slider down (2-3.5).

This is his rationale: The factory deep are usually in the ball park but they are not super deep. When you jump S/L, PCA, or a super fast go and throw the vertical airspeed the canopy uses to convert into the two vectors is very low so not too deep break settings are preferred (usually factory deep are good for this). However when you pitch at the 3 second mark by the time the canopy is opening there is quite a bit of airspeed and the factory deep might be too shallow leading the canopy flying with too much forward speed.

The argument made a lot of sense to me and the three BSs have been working great so far.

So off that B he’s talking about I’d use the factory deep. But then again I’d roll it over…

Ok.
Thanks all of you for advice and discusion.

I ask about this because i don't even anyone to talk about this in my country. There is only one person who did 2 base month a go from the bridge at the course in spain.

I know what i want to do but want to know what other people do.
Everyone makes what they want. That'a BASE for me.
I read somewhere on blinc - that's BASE, my jumps, my ruls.

Thanks again.

I hear you. Like you said, B's are usually very serious objects, there's no question about that. Asking questions about an approach to a B jump doesn't immediately say you need more training though (although you can never have too much training). It says you need more information because you might not have experienced that particular scenario before. Someone like Tom Manship who had 1800ish BASE jumps only had 2 buildings but 1600ish off the bridge. He lacked experience in that particular facet of BASE but it would be a bold person to suggest he lacked experience.

Tobiasz seems out on a bit of a limb geographically (Poland), and appears remote from other jumpers. In such cases, like with John Scher (Kenya i believe) and hundreds of other jumpers the world over who don't have a plethora of experienced jumpers to turn to for first hand advice, this is where the internet, and specifically forums like this become invaluable.

We all learn from experience. Sometimes the experience is our own, but often it's communicated to us by another. Communicating via forums or internet isn't ideal, but for many it's the only option and at the end of the day, it is still communicating, which has to be better than blazing a trail and reinventing the wheel.