Basejumper.com - archive

Those who have done it, How do u know it's never been jump before ? Silly question but I can not find any info on it, The object is in Mozambique, Africa so if anyone jump there would you please PM me ?

You don't. I can think of lots and lots of cases where someone thought they were the first, and it turned out that others had been there before. Since some folks are jumping without publicizing it, you can almost never be sure.

Opening an object is about the exploration, deciding where to go, choosing the right conditions, the setting you are going to use by yourself without any knowledge or advice of someone who already jump it... it is a personal thing.
Later if you discover you are not the first, it takes away a little bit of shine to your achievement, but you did it without knowing the results (exact results).
Even better, if you are not a loud guy (not publishing that you opened a new exit point), you may never know that you weren't the first, so in your reality, you opened the spot.
Cheers

What does it matter if it has ever been jumped before or not?

It's fun.

What does it matters ? Quite a big deal for me in the fact that this is the first object I "think/hope" I opened. It is a personal accomplishment and also knowledge gained. If you just want to follow the crowd then be my guest (said with respect). I hope to add to the sport and also about giving back what was given to me.

Do you just jump known objects or do you lead ?

Adam, If I'm correct then you jumped with me on my FJC at TF. I have some pictures of your exits. PM me and I'll forward it.

I completely understand your feelings toward opening a new site, and it definitely would be an accomplishment. For me though it doesn't really matter whether I am the first to jump something or not, as long as I am not the last. The only reason I can think of why I would care if something has been jumped before is whether or not anyone is currently jumping it and has any insight on how to do it "responsibly" so it doesn't get burned.

This is not quite the distinction you're talking about here, though. A few years back I opened a local big-wall. I didn't know for sure at the time if anyone had jumped it before, but I definitely had not heard of anyone who had (or received beta from them). The jump was scary as hell because of that fact. If I had found out afterward that someone else jumped it first, would it change the experience of "leading"? I think more important than whether or not it's been jumped before is whether you are doing it with or without beta.

Of course, it's a lot of fun to jump something which hasn't been jumped before. But the question of whether someone is a leader or follower, I think, depends entirely on what information they have when they jump the site.

Michael

Does "virgin" give you a hint?

I know one small antenna that a guy claimed to have opend ... well no need to step on the guys happines ;)

PerFlare

Speaking of opening small antenna's...

Nothing is gonna happen soon, but eventually I plan to get my A and an open an A with this object I have been eyeing for a while. This antenna is around 250 feet per the website but the landing areas are an extra 20 feet lower. There are two big landings areas with grass. My gear configuration would be a velcro rig with hand held deployment of a 46" vented pc. Of course given my limited experience it would be a go & throw.

Any comments or suggestions from you real BASE jumpers?

laser the bitch, don't trust the website

That's a go and throw to most people. Give it a 1 second delay. Practice the launch and the throw so you actually know how long 1 second is. Be quick with your reactions. There's no time to hesitate. The rest you'll have to figure out. When the time comes... good luck

As 666 stated, laser it.

PS: If you have any questions, send me a PM and I'll do my best to answer them.

Hi Tom,

You must misstaken me for a real basejumper ... with that in mind.

Like suggested I would make sure of it's hight, you never now and is might be kind of to late to find out in freefall.

What kind of gear du you have, what is the status of the velcro, what size do you jump, is it vented. The guy wires what do the look like ... like where are they placed, what's hight (the lowest one) ... let me clarify ... would it be a option to sink below the last one instead of a raiser turn?

Then you, how many stones are you, whats your exits like usually, small antennas usually have tricky exits, are you scared of hights (like me), would it be tricky to get to the exit with a pilot in your hand, do you have many basejumps, do you had any serious off headings?

I can't really help you if I do not know stuff like that ... one thing maybe ... I would go and throw ... why not ... let me clariy ... if you are standig there and thinking, my god, thats too long canopy time! repack and do it again and smoke it. No need to be doing it all at once.

Otherwise ... if the wind is nice, if your rigging is nice and you exit is nice and your pitch is nice I do not see any problem more then the bad luck that sometimes just happen.

Have fun, if I can answer more questions let me know!

PerFlare
Swedish BASE Team

Blue Skies PerFlare,

Thanks to you and the other guys for the replies! Hopefully one of my BASE friends will come through town and do the jump with me... but if not then I will eventually do it solo with a couple of skydivers as ground crew.

Gear
Used Odyssey container in real good condition and a Dagger 266 almost brand new.

Jumper
I weigh 195 pounds or 88.6 Kilograms, took an FJC, and have a total of 7 BASE jumps all from the Perrine bridge. My exits were scary but stable. Plus I also have a hot air balloon jump, an ultralight jump, and several helicopter jumps that were all smooth & stable.

Wires & LZ
The guide wires do not look to be completey centered, meaning they are not 120 degrees each. Due to the stuff under neath this A it looks like two sets are slightly closer to each other. This combined with the LZ make for 2 nice sides to exit from depending on wind direction. As for their height, maybe 80% of the antenna itself.

Delay
What are the theoretical pros and cons to a Go & Throw versus taking 1 second? If it was a pin rig then I would think the extra speed would help with deployment but being velcro not sure it will make much difference. Thoughts?

The Odyssey is a good rig but has very strong Velcro, if I remember correctly. If you're taking a short delay, I would prime the Velcro first.

Michael

>>it doesn't really matter whether I am the first to jump something or not, as long as I am not the last.<<

That's a Nugget . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Delay
What are the theoretical pros and cons to a Go & Throw versus taking 1 second? If it was a pin rig then I would think the extra speed would help with deployment but being velcro not sure it will make much difference. Thoughts?

Doing a "go and throw" will present your pilot chute sooner, and require more time and distance for the entire process of extraction and inflation to occur. This creates an increased risk of something going wrong durring extraction/inflation such as environmental conditions like wind giving you line twists.

waiting a second, then pitching at a higher velocity will result in a more abreviated extraction and inflation, minimizing environmental factors impact on your opening.

It should also be noted that the overall distance from exit to an open, flying canopy between a go and thow and a 1 second delay is the same. The benefits of waiting the second aren't being open sooner, but rather minimizing the time the canopy is unpacked before you are flying it.

Hi Michael,

I have primed someone's velcro before they jumped but.....because I had planned on wearing the rig (in case I fall and because it is a short climb) not sure how I could do it for myself...Can you please elaborate? Thanks.

This comment makes me wonder if you think that pin rigs take more force to open than velcro rig. This need not be the case. In fact, it is often the other way around. One jumper had a noticable and scary hesitation on a velcro rig this weekend, because his PC took a while to generate enough force to rip it open.

Just prime it before you put it on. Then put it on very carefully, listening to make sure you don't hear velcro peel prematurely.

I can't comment on the velcro. The only Odyssey I have jumped had terrible worn-out velcro that was due for replacement. Also, the Odyssey has less velcro (area-wise) than, say, my Vision.

The real problem with Odyssey is that some older ones don't have stiffened side-flaps. This can allow the side flaps to shrivel with the shrivel flap, creating a shear force again, making it much harder to peel it of. Later Odyssey's have this problem fixed.

Hello Jaap,

Hmm, I thought that the force required to open a double pin rig could vary depending on the canopy packed into it, the gut of the jumper, closing loop lenght, etc.

On the other hand, I thought velcro was supposed to be simpler and required less force, provide the shrivel flap works right. This might have been based on reading a manufacturer's delay chart.

Besides taking a delay is there other ways to prevent a hesitation?

so did your wife die? or is this all just a hypothetical {ie: fake} situation...

werent you recently scared out of the sport, and selling your gear?

just wondering. dont care really. at least you actually made a jump or two..

No my wife did not die!

Yes, I was very scared from watching Shannon die in Twin Falls. Soon as my FJC was over I flew home and sold my gear within a week.

After some time, reflection, and PMs I decided I would like to do another jump. Hence I bought more gear.

As for the situation, it is hypothetical since I am sitting my office, but no it is not fake.

Lastly, I have made 1500 jumps and 7 of those were from the Perrine.

That sucks and I don't think it is possible to be normal again after such an experience.

250' that velcro is coming off!
Just do it!
Monday back at the office, you will feel such relief you won't even want to log on to dropzonedotcom...

apologies.

Surely there must be a freestander nearby that has similar height and landing areas. Why make your first A more complicated with guy wires for only 250 feet?

with your high wingloading, low number of basejumps and the low exit height...

I would suggest doing a static line jump first and going from there.

I would also suggest making sure the deep brake settings on that canopy are customized for your exit weight and to jump in winds that are higher than your forward speed in deep brakes, which also bisect the wires.

Those are your most favourable conditions for a first jump off a 250' guyed antenna, start there and repeat until you are sure you want about half the amount of canopy time you are getting, then move to handheld, then keep doing handheld until you are sure you want noticeably less canopy time - then consult your psychiatrist!

seriously, no need to be freefalling 250' guyed antennas at this point when the static line is the bomb

cya
sam

In that case I would be tempted to leave the Velcro alone. It seems like the danger of having the rig come open while climbing is greater than the danger of it staying closed a pull time.

Are the side flaps on your rig stiffened? As Jaap mentioned, non-stiffened side flaps seriously reduce the effectiveness of the shrivel flap.

I'm curious why you've decided to freefall this one. At your experience level, I certainly would have chosen static line. Heck, I'd probably s/l the first time just to get a feel for it. Static line gives excellent heading performance, and also leaves your hands free. It can be awkward moving around with a pc in hand on the side of an antenna.


Simpler, yes. Less force, not necessarily. Velcro should provide a more consistent pull force with a variety of pack jobs, but a pin rig with Spectra closing loops can have very low pull force.

Michael

PM sent

Finally.

The guy's got 7 base jumps, all from the Perrine.
He's talkin' about opening and freefalling a 250' guyed "A" by himself, and people are encouraging him...

How can that scenario sound like a good idea to anyone?

Blue Skies Guys,

I did not mean to hijack this thread but the input has been very beneficial -- Thank you all for the posts and the PMs.

Yes, PCA or S/L would be better deployment methods for this object, especially at my experience level.

Yes, there are friendlier antennas in Florida that I should do first to get current before trying this one.

When I am ready to do another BASE jump I will probably visit an experienced jumper to do my 8th.

FYI: I will definitely test jump my canopy several times before taking it to the unforgiving environment of BASE.

Hopefully my willingness to accept good advice shows that I can be taught

Okay guys, I am a fucking idiot!!

I just figured out that the altitudes listed on the FCC website are in Meters NOT Feet, hence that antenna I was dreaming about is really 475 feet. I went there last night to video it and the landing area and I kept thinking it looked way doable. By the way, I now know there are plenty of taller ones around town.

Feel free to flame away...

This is an urban myth IMHO. Any rig can dump including the pin rigs. This was a problem on one of the early pin rig designs that required a redesign. One of the nice things for climbing with a velcro rig is that rarely is the failure catastrophric. Velcro is gradual and noisy.

My general advice is to climb with a quick-draw carabiner system to clip onto the tower for rest and as backup in case of a dump regardless of the type of rig. I had a rig dump on me at 600 feet on a tower and the quick-draw system saved me from being pulled off.

The danger with a pin system for a new jumper is going handheld on a difficult exit point. It's very easy for the jumper to pop his pins while folding the pilot chute and tensioning the bridle to ensure the appropriate bridle slack and length. I would suggest supplemental velcro on a pin rig to prevent inadvertant and premature tensioning of the pins for hand held jumping.

250 meters should be 820 feet, not 475.

Are you sure the A you're looking at is even the same one you think you've looked up?

Here is a link to a great free desktop conversion program that does meters to feet among many other conversions:

Conversion Program

Also, if you type (for example) "202 meters to feet" into Google it will tell you 202 meters = 662.729659 feet.

DUDE say it isnt soi were the first.. i know it buuhaaa

250m =820feet
250 feet = 76,23m


475feet=144,82m

naah just abit teasing

1m=3.28feet makes it easy on your cellphone

Are they????????

Based on what factors, characteristics, equipment configuration, etc, etc???

e.g. - if you had a bridge approximately 160ft, how would you deploy your gear????? Would you delay one second????? Or would you use appropriate gear configuration and use a modified go and throw technique? Or even a throw and go technique?

With a "go and throw" or better yet a simultaneous go and throw you are virtually positioning the PC in zero-air speed with absolutely no burble. At 1 sec of free fall your air-speed is roughly 22 MPH. A 48" PC generates about 15 LBS of force at that speed. Hence, theoretically speaking you should have the container open (fully or partially) by one second. Also if you use the throw-up technique the container should start opening almost as the PC passes the launch point.

On the other hand if you wait one second before pitching it is true that the airspeed is greater but the PC has to inflate first hence burning-up more altitude.

I believe your advice is wrong especially when one tries to FF very low objects. I consider anything below 200’ very low for FF.

All things being equal, if you open at the same altitude with a go and throw than you do with one sec delay, your go and throw technique needs some refinements.

Just my 0.02

personally, I think that anything under 250 should be done with a static line if possible, or a pca/buddy assist if necessary: I would not do, or suggest anybody else do a handheld or stowed jump from less than 250. I know that I'm ultra-conservative and even a little bit of a sally when it come to low shit, so that should also be considered when reading this.

As for what rigging conditions I base my comment on: both pin and velcro containers (perigee pro, perigee 2, vision, and softcock), mojo 220, ace 240, fox unvented 260 or 280... don't remember, 42 f111, 42 zeroP-AV, 46 f111 and ZeroP-AV, 48 f111 and ZeroP-AV, and a 50" zeroP (nonav).

This is what was taught to me, and what I have observed. However I admit that I've never specifically jumped with the goal of observing and testing this nugget my mentor gave me, or otherwise verified the numbers mathmatically.

Show me the data, and I will believe you. I want data, not opinions and comments!!!!!!!

Your "equi-distance" theory is based on MANY assumptions. The reality of BASE jumping is that many of those assumptions are missed by certain individuals on certain specific jumps.

What asssumptions:
- p/c material
- p/c size
- p/c construction
- p/c wear and tear
- symmetry of bridle / p/c attachment point and knots
- p/c packing technique
- p/c holding and/or deployment technique
- localised weather (wind / humidity / etc)
- BODY position on exit and one second into the delay
- container characteristics (pins v veclro, etc)
- packing volume v container volume
- etc
- etc
- etc

e.g. a 50 in p/c deployed in a very specific way on a go and throw will perform much better than the same deployed poorly at 1 second. There is also the issue of consistency. F111 performs more consistently than zero P as the airflow is attracted into the p/c.

To make a generalisation like: "a 1 second delay is better than a go and throw is downright dangerous in the wrong hands. What are "wrong hands"? Every new person entering the sport and/or every person who heeds your comment as advice.

This may work above 300ft as you have some degree of a safety margin and you may / may not notice the difference in 25ft or difference in consistency, but at lower altitudes it is a dangerous thing to say.

p.s. 250ft - conservatism is fine.