Basejumper.com - archive

As stated by Wikipedia, "The term group dynamics implies that individual behaviours may differ depending on individuals' current or prospective connections to a sociological group."

How do you feel that group dynamics affects us as a whole? Obviously, they can be either positive or negative, but lets go deeper?

I feel that by looking at group dynamics and getting a better understanding of how how they affect us, we can help limit the affects of group dynamics in a negative manner and encourage the positive aspects among ourselves.

How can we accomplish this? Communication thru teaching and learning by increasing our interpersonal, problem solving, negotiating, and decision making skills. I feel all of these play a big role in the realization and accomplishment of this goal.

I ask for your thoughts on how we can use Group Dynamics in a positive manner to facilitate the development or progress of BASE as a whole.

i think its a bad thing thats it

Perhaps as most of my jumps are solos i feel like this..

Dont get me wrong i love to meet other jumpers and jump whith them,but i hate what happens at example perrine were "you aint a real BASEjumper unless you completed in 50 jumps and made serval arials"(well might over dramaticed,but you are americans)
I think that people progress too hard as other do stuff then this new person also wants to..
People tends not to beabel to step back or climb down.. how do you trust a person who dont trust his own awardness?

But thats my feeling about it.. feel free to flame away if it make you(genneral) better it wont change my mind..

Leroy, I think its up to people as a whole to come to the realization that everone has different characteristics. So you habg out with people that have characteristics that seem to be comfortable and compatable. Some people take longer to feel compatable with whiler others are an ionstant hit. My method in which to solve this problem is to give people a chance and see if their easy to deal with and cool. Then if someone doesnt like me id say fuck it, i dont need their arms or legs to get to an exit point. Everythings always gonna be good as long as you dont make a big deal out of anything.

Progression is an important part of Group Dynamics.

I ask you, what is progression defined as?

I think there is an important difference between progressing at a "natural" rate, versus someone who progresses just because they can. Now of course this is all subjective, but this is where having that self-awareness and being able to climb down comes into play.

I think that progress should not necessarily "be movement, as toward a goal or to advance,” but moreover looked at in the mindset of "development or growth" Basically this is to say not to advance because you have a goal in mind, but to advance because you are ready, and to add to that, you don’t necessarily have to progress. Some people are dead set on flat and stable jumps for their whole BASE-jumping career and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

How easy this does sound, but yet we continue to see people advancing faster than they "should" or the generally accepted rate of advancement. Those people sometimes sure seem to think that their skill-set are above par and they are not under the norms. Sure some do progress faster than others and have a natural ability, but there is nothing natural about BASE. There is a reason that other wuffos don’t understand why we jump and do the things we do. It may feel natural, but understand that we all have a primordial fear built.

How does this apply to Group Dynamics? Progression is an important part of Group Dynamics, because it obviously has an impact upon it. If a person does not have the ability to properly self-assess ones self and his or her abilities, they may fall victim to their own actions.

I finish this post as follows: Ultimately to jump or not is their decision, but as a group (the BASE Jumping community) I think we should help take care of our own but utilizing positive Group Dynamic aspects. We can’t necessarily control those people, but we can do our best to give them the information, in conjunction with
positive Group Dynamic aspects to give them the best chance for success<--(generally speaking)

Further:
What I am trying to convey is that collectively we can use group dynamics, the cohort effect (the particular impact of a group bonded by time or common life experience), and peer pressure in a positive way to help those jumpers who advance before they are truly ready to perhaps take a step back and reevaluate.

I don't know if this is what you're going for, but on a recent trip, my friends and I were somewhat disappointed at the lack of jumpers. There was about 75% less jumpers than I had seen there at the same time last year.
It was pretty windy while we were there, and one day, when the winds were calming down, I turned to a friend and said, "I'm pretty glad there isn't as many people here as usual. There is something to be said for the mob mentality. I know that if so many people were here it would be more likely one person would decide, 'Hell, I'm jumping' and get the whole group going."
About 30 minutes later a group of people arrived, looked at the landing area, and talked to us about how the winds had been earlier that day.
One jumper decided, Hell, I'm jumping, and that's all it took for all of us to grab our gear. The winds at this time were not bad, just slightly questionable. Enough that if it was a solo, I don't many of us would have gone. Yet, all the jumps were uneventful.

That one jumper ended up dying at a different site not long after.

Yes, There is something about group dynamics (aka the mob mentality) but I don't think it's a good thing.

Holly Joan

I have sensed a transformation since I originally posted this... (be it large or small)

Now even more are choosing not to jump in marginal or bad conditions; this being noticed at several major and some not so major BASE jumping events . Maybe it was that he or she did not want to be "that guy" or "girl," and risk messing the event up for others in the future?

Then again I suppose it may be that negative group dynamics are not affecting us as much as before?

Conceivably "we" might making choices for ourselves now and not the TF Zoo loads of the past years?

Can I say that maybe we as a group, amongst some of the other hindrances, are maturing as a whole?

I am a champ at climbing down. I have more climb downs than I have jumps.

>>I am a champ at climbing down. I have more climb downs than I have jumps.<<

That's a Nugget . . .

On the subject of "group dynamics" you can track how it's changed over the years . . .

At first in the early 1980s we celebrated any achievement no matter what it was. By the mid-80s we were starting to realize some behaviors were detrimental to the sport, but we threw up our hands and called it trying to herd cats.

By the early-90s we thought organizing was the key to our survival. In the mid-90s we turned BASE into skydiving and starting holding meets and handing out trophies. By the late 90s the first generation of BASE started retiring and it became a fact you could make a thousand BASE jumps if you were really really careful. And also several BASE jumpers were jailed and a few lost their lives because they truly believed in the cause.

In the first years of 2000 the largest influx of jumpers appeared thinking they had the world by the balls. They were truly the first generation that could purchase BASE gear off the shelf and not have to cob something together from parts. They had access to more legal sites than ever before.

By mid-2000 the brotherhood of BASE jumping, in the largest sense was all but gone. Getting a BASE number became quaint and anyone could hang out a mentor's shingle and call it death camp. The BASE fatality rate soared from a few a year, to a few a month.

In 2007 the freedom to jump in Europe is hanging by a thread, it's the year that will be remembered as the beginning of the decline of Bridge Day, and when too many BASE jumpers sold out the sport to corporate interests. National Parks jumping is still unresolved. Some BASE jumpers will be remembered for following the Hell's Angles example and cloaking their activities in the guise of charity events.

The question of what the future holds, must include specific laws banning BASE, gear manufactures being sued out of existence, and the result of the idea Maggot can write the word BASE in shit at the exit point and nobody says much. That doesn't bode well for us.

The thing you have to ask yourself is a purely political one - are we better off than we were in the early 1980s?

I know full well I sometimes sound like the voice of doom and gloom to younger jumpers here. But I know if Mike Allen was here, if Rick Payne was here, if Mark Hewitt was here, if John Hoover was here, if Nigel Slee was here, if Dennis McGlynn was here, if Frank Gambalie was here, if Jan Davis was here, if Don Swazye was here, if J.D. Walker was here, and if Matt McCarter and Lane Kent were here - they would all be telling you the same thing.

And when I'm finally gone it will only be Maggot and the word BASE written in shit . . .

NickD
BASE 194

 
I've seen it work both ways. It's kind of hard to say which way the trend will go in a groop. The more time each person in the groop has in the sport the more likely it is to trend towards caution. One old dog doesn't count for much. His voice wont be heard. I find the tone of a group is more often set by the lowest commen denominator. Or at best by the mean. In other words if the majority of the groop are mid time jumpers then the group will behave as such. I would like to beleave that it would follow the lead of the most experanced jumper but that doesn't seem to be the case. The sad truth is that it tends to degenerate to the level of machurity of the lowest member of the groop. And if you get enough base jumpers togather that is enevitably a bad thing.

On a sepperat note. The only time I ever met Magot his ass was hanging from a small flake of rock and the lines were poping one at a time. Now even the best of us can find him self in some shit so I try not to judge him by that. His post here tend to be inflamatory. Well it's hard not to poke fun at the yuppies and I've never said any thing becouse I don't see any reason to incurage him. Besides I didn't beleave any of it. Hell I can be a little abrasive my self when I'm board and can't sleep. Is any of that shit true? Does he actualy write his name in shit on buildings? I just assumed all of that was a bunch of crap. No pun intended. Maybe I should have given him a call when I was passing through town. He could of met me on my lay over from Baffin with one of his hookers. Hell, I could have lost my virginity.

Lee

 
I think I got it... (at the risk of opening up...)

After posting the above I feel I have come to a conclusion of sorts. That maybe BASE isn't changing the way I thought it was; maybe I have been the one changing the whole time?

Call me Captain Obvious, but this only goes to show that BASE is truely an indivdual sport and that we all progress (some regress) at our own rates.

Never-the-less I still feel that we can personally put our own control measures into place and use these, at a minimum, for ourselves to counter negative group dynamic in hope that others will catch on and make the right decision.

IE: That it is better to be climbing down or walking away, than wishing you had climbed down or walked away...


Stepping away from the computer... Sleep Debt is Bad.. mmmkay

Ah well, mostly that was just me venting about the three latest fatalities . . . another dubious first in BASE jumping.

It's too easy to use Maggot, and not so much him personally, but he as a metaphor for the "maggot generation" of BASE jumpers. And that's not fair to most BASE jumpers today and I'm going to try and stop doing that.

But seriously sometimes reading the words of some BASE jumpers here puts me in the Twilight Zone episode where you awake to find everything you know to be true has changed and not for the better.

And Leroy, this "group dynamics" thing is a good subject and shows you're a thinking man. But as much as we declare ourselves individuals, as much as we shy away from a group identity, and as much as we slide along in an every man for himself fashion, the underlying and inescapable result is when the bell does toll – it tolls for all of us.

And we just rang the bell three times . . .

NickD
BASE 194

FYI I wrote BASE using Maggot's shit, and it was not pleasant doing it but it had to be done.

Gee, that doesn't surprise me at all.

Cue the Twilight Zone music . . .

NickD
BASE 194

how long do you typically spend in an object before you jump? enough to take a shit and spread it around for some worker showing up the next day at an already shitty job to find a SHITTIER job. fucking lame. I know sometimes you have to take a shit, but you should dispose of that stinking pile, dont leave it to someone else. How upset would you be iff someone shat in your loft? course this is probably just a waste ofmy time

hehe... i like that one .


its Hopeless...

Always will be.

Isn't it nice to find a porta potty on the roof? The really fancy sites even have little portable sinks to wash your hands afterwards...such civility...

even better is when there is a bar near the top to stop and get a drink before the jump, and use their ammenities prior to gear up.

Imagine they called it B.E.S.T.

Ya I like those Porta Potties that have that little sink in them also. But dude, The Sinks are really low and the Soap always smells like Piss. ...
.

I know you must be referencing the quote from John Donne. I have underlined what I think and feel most applies here in this moment in time; especially considering the recent incidents. (RIP and respect to all)

Meditation XVII: No man is an island...
"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."


Added:

So what can we take, give or share from this?
The thought that the general population is not secluded from one another, but that mankind is interconnected; and that the lucid understanding of our susceptibility to death seems to be a natural consequence of a point when death is the constant acquaintance of life.

So are we saying that "Negative Group Dynamics" is a "constant acquaintance" as related to BASE jumping? I can see how we could easily say yes... But a huge part of me: the explorer, the curious, the puzzle solver, the challenge taker, etc says that we can utilize Group Dynamics. I will go as far to say that we can utilize Group Dynamics not only for ourselves, but also to "positively” affect others.
I so feel that we can, but maybe then again, I want it to so much that it might be working against itself?

 
I started to post this as a responce in incedents but this is probable a better location for it.

I walked down off a really big cliff earlier this year. One that I've been drooling over for years. I didn't do it once I did it three times. It's a long story. Weather was part of it but beyond that there was a good size ledge. Even when other people were jumping past it I just was not 100% sure I could clear it, big heavy rig no tracking suit or wings. It hurts. It's really hard to come all that way and then turn around. Especially when it means that long of a hike.

The point I'm trying to make is that this is a defining characteristic of a base jumper. It's as fundamental as being able to pack. It's the dividing line between some one who has made base jumps and some one who is a base jumper. The willingness to say no. No to weather. No to the exit point. No to the landing area. No to the gear I'm jumping. Or to just admit that you're not feeling up to it that day. Some thing I've always told younger jumpers is that if you want to base jump be prepared to walk down, if you want to be a base jumper make a practice of it.

People get into trouble when they don't realize that they are in over their head. But far more often they get into trouble because they can't admit even to them selves that they are in too deep. They strangle the little voices in the back of their mind. It's a habit you get into when you consistently do things that you are unprepared for.

Fear comes from one of two things. The fear of the unknown and the fear of the inescapable. I'll try to explain. When you don't know what is going to happen, or what to do, the unknown dangers out there in the mist are just terrifying. The monster that your mind will conjure out of the dark are far worse then any thing that actually walks the night. The other fear is of a possibility you can not deal with. There are very real things out there in the night and some of them do bite. That's why you should carry a gun. If you've got a gun you don't need to be afraid of them. They only reason you should be afraid of them is if you're unarmed against them. If you're ready for that 180 then it's not nearly as frightening. You wont be shaking at the exit point. If you are afraid then it's because your doing something you shouldn't be doing. That buttress on the right is just too tight. 90 right is wall. You're scared and you should be. It's the very rational voice in the back of your mind telling you that maybe you shouldn't be doing this. Bright people lessen. I'll admit I'm not always bright but I try.

Here's the problem. If you are constantly in over your head. If you are never really prepared. If you really haven't trained enough. If you never really understood your gear. Then you are always in the unknown. What your doing may be perfectly fine but your alarm bells are misfiring all the time anyways. You're never really comfortable but you keep doing it any ways. Over time you learn to ignore those sirens and klaxons. If fact you learn to smile and joke. You put on a brave face and just don't think about it. That one of the biggest danger signs, when you stop thinking about what might go wrong. If you're truly prepared then it wont bother you to think about what might happen. You've got a plan, a flow chart of how you're going to deal with it.

I believe this is how people get in to trouble. They learn to ignore the voices. They can no longer tell the difference. They lose perspective on the level of risk. I think this is how people get pushed into things. Large groups can bread a hot house atmosphere but it's the inability to say no that gets people into trouble and I believe it is from the inability to gage risk level. That ability is lost in our continued push beyond our comfort level. I see this in the young jumpers. They are learning so fast and pushing forward so hard that they are always afraid. They become numb to it. It's hard to see the edge coming when you're going that fast. When you've disconnected the alarm bells you don't know when you're really getting close to the edge of the envelope.

We all deal with both of these kinds of fear. The very act of growing implies pushing outwards into the unknown. We all have to work through this at times. Here's a test. This may not be the best standard but it's one I've used. You're nerves. Fine. Stand on the exit point and envision every possible problem and think of how you're going to deal with them. If you can do this and your heart rate doesn't speed up then it's a phantom fear. It's your mind fucking with you. If you can't do that then you need to go back and review your plan. Ether some thing in it is week or you're missing something. You're mind is trying to warn you. The trick is to find the problem and analyze it. What is it that I'm missing. What are the odds of it happening. The term is risk management. I'm not saying you shouldn't walk under the serrac but maybe you should hurry and I deffinantly wouldn't stop to have lunch there no matter how sheltered and cozy it looked. I'm not saying you shouldn't make the jump. But after taking the time to scan and pick out an alternate landing area on the talus in the event of an off heading I found that I was a lot less nervous.

It's not bad to push some times but then you should retreat back to where you are comfortable for a while.

Did I do any better with the spelling this time? I know I suck. I start to answer something in the little response form and before you know it I'm rambling on semi coherently. I generally don't mean these post to be so long. I get lazy and don't take the time to open up another program to try and spell check it. Hell, some time they cant even figure it out. It's even worse when it's late and I can't sleep. When trying to translate Lee try thinking phonetically with poor pronunciation. I'm sorry I'm so fucking stupid.

Lee

I know what you mean. I sometimes get jested by a couple people because of how slow I progress in BASE, or how I sometimes take an extra minute to "align the stars and moon." And climbing down or walking away... we should all walk away or climb down once in a while when everything is perfect... I have done it at TF, Royal Gorge, Malaysia, and other places jsut to test yourself. I know I can trust myself... I think that there are less people in the world that can trust themselve, than those that can. One thing I tell myself, is that I am not in this to prove anything to anyone or impress others.

As much as BASE is a very individual sport, it is also very group oriented. What we do as individuals effects and affects the whole Group in a Dynamic way.

And with the influx of new blood, we need to find a way to "herd cats." NickDG... what say ye?

 


Well, Nick, one of us is here, and I say Amen, brother.

I consider it one of the fortunate events of my life to have been in the right place at the right time at the right age to have been involved in the beginning of BASE. I feel like i witnessed and took part in one of the last pure acts of mankind.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cynical, but I look at what a lot of BASE is now, and it's like your daughter got gang-raped... - and she liked it.

BASE 17

Hey Bro,

Ha, had to look up your BASE number (memory is going) and I sure hope you stick around here. I've been trying to keep these cats linked to their past but it's uphill with more than a few of them . . .

Anyway I'm glad you're here. The smell of pimple cream in this place could really use a whiff of Ben Gay . . .

NickD

Why would you disparage a woman for expressing her sexuality?

 

Dude man was referring to himself (and his own family).

You were the one who turned it around to throw it at another poster who wasn't part of the whole reference. You want to join in for yourself, that's fine, but you were dragging other people into it who weren't part of that particular bit of lovely imagery, and who didn't want to be part of it.


It looks to me like you're the one getting you're panties twisted over not much.

Nick I'm still here, Mike Allen is still a voice in my head. Maybe its time I break out of my malaise and resurrect those images we worked so hard on.

Bryan