Basejumper.com - archive

copy paste from skydivingmovies.com

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=4718

my comment:
BASE841,i hope your son dosnt die.. its only you to blame..
Im a father aswell and yes i sure would allow the kids to skydive as they turn 16(limit here) but BASE jumping surdenly wasnt a thing i would bring my kids into,and deafently if they wanted to i would make sure they got the BEST education by THE BEST BASE jumpers out there(not saying your bad).
Faber/BASE 850

So what are you saying?????????????????????????????????????????????

His comment/ He was "saying" :

In reply to:

my comment:
BASE841,i hope your son dosnt die.. its only you to blame..
Im a father aswell and yes i sure would allow the kids to skydive as they turn 16(limit here) but BASE jumping surdenly wasnt a thing i would bring my kids into,and deafently if they wanted to i would make sure they got the BEST education by THE BEST BASE jumpers out there(not saying your bad).
Faber/BASE 850

edit to add: it is pretty easy to read between the lines recovercrachead. Then again?

I hope his health insurance covers funeral arrangements

Hey Faber,

I too am struggling with this one. My son is 16 as well, and has recently been bugging me to let him continue Skydiving, with the intent to start BASE jumping. I'm still on the fence with this one. He knows full well, first hand, the dangers of BASE, yet he still wants to jump. At 16, he's at the crossroad of life, not quite an adult, but not a kid anymore either. What to do?
To say if his son dies it's his fault, is a bit harsh I think.
By that process if anyone dies that you have taken under your wing, it your fault. Do you think that everyone one "the list" has someone (mentor)to blame for their death?
Just trying to invoke some thought on it. Sometimes the hardest thing about being a parent is letting them grow up. I know your kids are still young, so it's tough

I don't know where I stand on this one

So far my answer to him has been "we'll see"

I think a lot of it has to do with how dangerous you think BASE really is and why you think that. I think, if you trust your son to make descent decisions under close supervision then learning to BASE at 16 isn't a real issue. My biggest concern would be that they go off on their own, showing off for friends, and do something they wouldn't do otherwise...

If my son was into roadracing, as I was, I would have the same concerns. On a closed course, managed event it's one thing, but in the mountains with his friends on a two lane road is entirely different. Yet, that is how I started roadracing.

I would not encourage my son to BASE jump, but if it's something he wants to do and his head is on straight, I would be right there beside him holding his PC myself.

BTW, 841 is a skydiving instructor and experienced BASE jumper. I think he would have a pretty good idea of his own level of competence...

He may know full well and first hand the dangers, but 16 year-olds still tend to believe, consciously or subconsciously, that they are bullet-proof. They may say they don't, and on an intellectual level they may understand they really aren't and they really can die, but most of the time, there is still some part of them that has not yet accepted their own mortality. And until that happens, I am not sure a person is really capable of appreciating the risks of an activity like BASE well enough to make a mature determination as to whether or not they want to go down that path. Not saying that applies with your kid (or 841's either), but I think that does apply to the overwhelming majority of 16-year olds. Just think back to when you were 16, and think about the perspective you had then as compared to the perspective you have now. I am 40, and I remember that when I was 16, I was pretty damn sure I was an "adult" capable of making my own life decisions, despite my parents' views to the contrary. I look back now and am glad my parents stuck to their guns and didn't just turn me loose.

Being a skydiving instructor is for sure an asset, however, his profile says he only has 100 BASE jumps. I hope that # needs to be updated. To teach anyone, you should have more than that

All true, I'm 41, and I thought the same thing, at each decade, 20,30 40. Each time thinking OK now I've matured. I'm sure that will continue, and when and if I make 60, I'll look back and think I knew shit when I was 41, but each person is individual 16 or 66
I've met 17 yr olds who were far more heads up than guys at 40 or even 50

Edit to add: I taught a 17 yr old a few years ago, and he was just crowned new World Champ in Swooping!

You know if the kid has a good amount of skydives and gets some proper training for base, then alright kid get after it. It does seem like a young age, but at that age you are really athletic and can react faster than most. There are a number of sports where the young kids are dominating the scene and taking it to the next level. Who knows this kid could end up being one of the best Base jumpers of our time. Like i said, proper training is important.

the closest thing i had to a mentor started base at 16, and came out fairly unscathed..

his mentor was mcglynn tho..

I'm 29 years old. I would say I've thought about my own mortality more than most people my age. Three months ago I probably would have argued that few people have a clearer picture of their own mortality than I did. Then I watched my brother go in at the Potato Bridge (and, incredibly, survive). Today, I would say, Show me a man who has accepted his own mortality, and I'll show you a man who will accept it more if the right events transpire.

I guess what I'm saying is, I doubt any of us is ever really over the "bullet-proof" thing. So it seems a bit odd to look at a 16-year-old and say, "There is still some part of them that has not yet accepted their own mortality."

Michael

I'm at work right now and don't have time for an in-depth reply, but quickly:

Faber and all, thanks for your views. Letting my son skydive and BASE jump was done with a LOT of thought and discussion, and not done lightly. I have taken some steps to keep it in control... only PCA from TF, and I hold onto the gear so he only jumps under my supervision. And I wouldn't even consider doing this unless Matthew impressed me with his maturity. (He's looking forward to doing the cliffs in Utah, but knows they are many jumps in the future.) As for judging maturity, I would never consider letting/helping his older brother (19) skydive, much less BASE jump. The two young men are VERY different.

Helping Matthew skydive and BASE jump has been terrifying for me, but like one poster said, at some point your children will grow up and start their own lives. Instead of shielding my children from the world, I try to prepare them for it, based on their abilities and aptitudes.

Matthew has impressed me with having the desire and aptitude for jumping. Is it too early? I don't think so; not for him, and not for TF PCA. For others? That depends on the individuals involved.

I think rules of thumb (200 skydives, for example) are good guidelines. But despite (or maybe because of) my military experience, I don't think they should be followed blindly. For my oldest son (for example) I'd recommend more like 500 skydives under a variety of canopies with no injuries. I don't think he could do it.

...and so the degradation of BASE continues.

Gus

Last week an experienced skydiver with several thousand jumps and 20+ years was PCA'd off the Potato. He had a tailgate hangup. He grab his toggles and pumped the shit out of them and got a canopy ~75 feet off the water.

Would anyone with 7 skydives be prepared to deal with this?

It was just a PCA off the Potato.

(and if anyone wants to know it was a small black band larksheaded to the tailgate and triple wrapped...and no that's not my method)

Being a good BASE Jumpmaster means knowing you can't sling, especially PCA, a light load on a big canopy because everything is set for the middle. When the load goes down or the canopy goes up the reefing must slide to compensate . . .

Whose bright idea was that anyway?

NickD
BASE 194

Mweh, this is nothing new. Some of the earliest BASE jumpers started at a very young age and some even with zero skydives. I don't think it should be taken as a growing trend. How many people have parents that understand BASE jumping well enough to let their minor kid get into it?


Fascinating. Does he have an interest in it and did you actively deny him (that would be impressive) or was he not really interested anyway (thereby somewhat weakening your point)?


WTF? I thought we had seen the last of the black rubber bands. And for those that still decide to use them, at least I thought they knew to avoid the larkhead. BASE736 can tell you a great story about black band hangups that aren't over water...


Perhaps so, but more important than the maturity is the point of no regret. At what age can you start in BASE and look back ten years later and not say: "I regret starting then, I should have waited a little longer." That point doesn't move much as you get older. However, the point is at a different age for every person.

With the focus on the dangers of BASE, we may be overlooking the pace-of-life factor. If you're BASE jumping when you're 16, what will you have to do at 46 to keep life interesting? For some this could be an issue, ultimately leading to early disaster. For others, it can work great and they ultimately become the ones climbing Mount Everest wearing just a speedo, doing triple gainer BASE jumps of every 120 foot crevasse they fall into on their way back (or any similarly impressive feats).

Not directed at you but,
Maybe that's the reason why we dont use black rubber bands or larkshead the tailgate closing band. It's been done before, and some of us have learned from that. Apparently that guy needs several more skydives on top of his thousands to learn proper preparation of base gear. just my 2 cents. sorry for the rant.

DL last weekend. I wasn't there, but I'm trying to get a copy of the video.

.........too true

Can you elaborate? One man's degradation can be another man's improvement.

What a gay nugget!

, what an astute observation. That's some funny shit (even though I say so myself). Nice one Yuri!

*sigh* non BASE jumper opinion.

Its not about the age. Its about the experience. 7 skydives is not experienced.

Is that like a dingle berry?

Dude this kid is so lucky. I have 300 jumps a horrific malfunction and my dad won't let me base jump until I'm out of the house! no questions asked! 7 skydives isn't anything dude. That tells you how high to flare. But then again it seems going to twin falls is a no brainer compared to other places. But like others mentioned what if he gets a little cocky and decides to jump off an A gets busted and says he's done dozen base jumps does 841 get charged with neglagence?
anyways I'm jelous.

I would dissuade anyone from BASE jumping, so I can not understand at all why would anyone encourage their own flesh and blood to take up this sport...

Another McBASE jumper enters the sport, massively under prepared, massively under qualified, taking terrible advice and either unwilling to spend the 10 minutes it would take to find those things out or just unwilling to do anything about it. A "mentor" who is displaying similar qualities and worst of all, a mentor who is abusing one of the most powerful positions of trust a man can hold. Yes Jaap, congratulations to all involved, a real step forwards in this fledgling sport of ours.

Gus

When I wrote my original post I hadn't yet seen the video or realized this guy was working with only seven skydives. My bad.

In light of this, I am now more inclined to agree with you.


I see where you're coming from now. The angle I came from is that BASE has always had its share of younglings being introduced with ill-preparation. There are several sub-100 BASE number holders that can attest to this. So maybe not much has changed.

In a way, I sometimes have more respect for the total loonies -that truly go ahead, unaware of what's going to hit them- than for the middle-of-the-road sheep that nod yes and amen when we speak of risk and dangers and do a half-assed job by preparing themselves seemingly responsibly (by taking an FJC) while still being whoefully ignorant.

What category this kid (or his father) fits in, I don't know. The jury is out on that one. As for me, I fit the latter.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you're going to be silly, at least be silly in a hardcore way...

I learned how to BASE jump at 16, my first jump was an A and i had no skydiving experience at all. I had 8 jumps before i did my first tandem. I have been jumping for over a year and loving it more every day. I spent my one year anniversary in Norway with a group of friends, not a bad place to be after a year.
I don't think that BASE jumping is a bad idea for a "kid" as long as the person teaching has enough experience and trusts that the "kid" can handel him/herself if put in a situation that is less then ideal. Whether he is 16 or 18 is irrelevant, his maturity level and ability to act fast and efficiently is what matters.
My only advice for his dad is to make sure he is ready, and be safe as you can.

You dodged a bullet Clair.

The fact that you are alive may be due to personal skill and maturity and an incredible mentor. Perhaps you were just plain lucky. You are a statistical pool of ONE. You cannot draw a hypothesis and/or theorem from that. Your mentor is George Bushing his way through this one. "Weapons of Mass Desctruction I tell you". "It's OK for a 16 yo with no parachuting experience to BASE jump I tell you". Where are the facts / data / and a reasonable pool of experience to suggest that his actions were appropriate?????

It's kind of like teaching your two year old son to walk . . . . . . through traffic. He may make it to the other side of the road, but that only proves that he was lucky, or that the traffic allowed for his inexperience and stopped. I would not like my two year old to play Frogger with traffic whilst he is learning to walk. And I certainly would not want my young child to learn to BASE jump without some prior skill development and retention.

But it does not matter which way you cut it. It does not matter how you and/or your mentor want to justify your progression, IT IS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION. And being able to judge who is right to progress the way you did is an art/skill that virtually NOBODY has the absolute talent for.

Its great you're still alive and having fun. But please don't try to sell illogical, unproven, crap to the rest of the population. Your continued existence is NOT an absolute guarantee that what you did was right. You may believe it was right for you, but you should NOT try to make it right for everyone else. That is putting other people's lives in your and their hands.

My suggestion for what it is worth, go learn a lot more about BASE jumping and life itself. Then teach those that are truly ready and willing, not everyone else.


trust???? less than ideal situation???? Herein lies the problem. You are basically hoping that a less than ideal situation does not develop so that the trust does not have to be relied upon.

Let me put it to you another way, and this may be offensive and shocking, but you are not getting the point. Would anyone TRUST their inexperienced 16 yo daughter on a blind date with a bunch of sex crazed bikies.

NO. And I do not give a rats arse how mature the daughter is, if she is mine, I would not put her in that situation. I would attempt to give her as much information/experience/wisdom, to stay away from that situation. My 16 yo child BASE jumping with no parachuting experience?????? Any parent who truly loves their child would insist on prior learning.

As I said, I'm glad you have gotten through the early stages. But don't influence others to do the same thing. There are too many loved ones already on the list.

If he dies does 841 get charged with man slaughter?... My vote would be for YES!


my skydivingmovies.com comment:

I myself am 15 and want to get into BASE. Yes it would be awesome to BASE jump tomorrow, But if someone offered I would definatly have the brains to reject them! It would be tempting but I would prefer to make several thousand safe BASE jumps starting in 5 yrs than make only 50 starting now....
Bottom line, you and your son are tools......

Yes im sure me still being alive is due to personal skill, and someone standing with me encouraging me.

As for the "Weapons of Mass Destruction", there are no facts/ data, because as far as I know I was just about it. that doesn't mean that you can say that it is incredibly dangerous for a 16 year old to jump because the one girl that did learn to jump at 16 with no expirance is still alive and jumping all the time. The only way to get facts/data is to have more people do it, yeah there are millions of people who are no where near ready to base jump and would not beable to pull it off and succede at it with no other expirance, but i am sure there are a few, just like me.
I totaly agree with you , it is not right for the majority of the population!!! I never said it was a good idea for every 16 year old. I am not selling "unproven crap" to the public, because all i am saying is there are some 16 year olds that can jump and do it safely.

"being able to judge who is right to progress the way you did is an art/skill that virtually NOBOADY has the absolute talent for" yeah this is true but who is to say that some one is truly ready and willing. I was truly ready and willing. I had been think and researching all I could about BASE jumping for the past 8 years before i did my first jump. Everyone is different, and the # of jumps they need varrys concideribly.

hmmm... i do believe that you are saying that my parents don't love me... ok whatever. You have no idea who my parents are or how much they love there kids. The reason my parents let me jump was

because the trusted my choices and knew that if i wasn't prepared then i wouldn't do it

they knew that this was something that i had been waiting to do for years and they also respected the fact that i had been talking to many people about jumping, and watching people jump for years.

Less then i deal situations are inevitable, trusting the student to beable to work it out is what i was saying. i never said that i was hopeing that it never developed. Because hopeing never works. you are no matter what you think gonna be put in less then ideal situations.

I am not NOT telling everyone to go out and jump with no expirance. Just like everyone else when asked about learning how to jump i tell them to go and learn how to skydive and get a bunch of jumps first.

I just recentally took an 18 year old girl BASE jumping for her first few jumps. And yes she did have just over 300 skydives.

i am not saying it is right for everyone, but i am saying that i am living proof that it can be done and it can be done safely. given the right student, teacher and object

Those are 2 different things:

1) It can be done;

and

2) It can be done safely.


Having done something successfully one time does not mean that it is safe. To generalize that something is safe, you need an evaluation of safety issues and a repeatable pattern of success.

For example, if I give a 6 year old a gun and he doesn't shoot himself, that doesn't prove that what I did was safe. It demonstrates that there is some possibility that a 6 year old won't shoot himself. If I try to extrapolate from that and give all 6 year olds guns? Then I bet we'd be looking at some major problems.


Note that this is not a comment on Dave and Matthews experience. I believe the two situations are radically different, in many different ways, one of which is that Dave isn't doing this because he wants to have sex with Matthew.

Yes you are right. but in order to have the proof that it is safe there needs to be more people doing it. I am not saying it was the safest thing in the world. i am saying it has been done and it is possiable it could be done again.

As with the well armed 6 year olds, it's possible that conducting such an experiment, should it prove a failure, would have costs far greater than any potential benefits from a success.

i would hope that the people jumping did not think like a 6 year old, your brain has to be a little more mature than that , and you have to look at it from all angles, is the gun loaded? because if its not then the only way it is dangerous is if he throws it at some one.

you know.. only 5 years ago when i took up BASE i were told i were iresponsible jumping as i had kids,today this sport has improved and today its ok to jump as you has kids its ok to teach people who COULD get some maturety problems as of their age,also its ok to teach people who has nearly none or none atall experience under canopy.


I hope so,as i understand you want the best to your son(all parents wants to),BUT if you really should help him then you should go skydive whith him do some canopy work etc etc i cant belive that you think that of his maturety he can handel mals at single parachute systems,that he can land presicly(and might standing),IF you had done all of that,mate i wouldnt pip up,but the fact that Mathew is young he aint all the mature you might think he is,as of his canopy experience he deafently need to learn more if you want to keep him safe.

I tell you this as i care not to be evil.I think that if Mathew really wants this and you want to teach him,then make sure that it can be done as safe as posible(ie canopy control).
People dies all over the world even in TF...

r.e. the loaded gun example . . .. in BASE, the gun is always loaded. The only thing that varies is the number of bullets and the number of chambers. There is no such thing as "bulletless" Russian Roullette. If you do not have that minor bit of information well entrenched in your psyche, then you and/or the people you are now teaching, are doomed.

Let me put it to you in laymans terms. It is possible to stuff up and die on any BASE jump. Yes, there are many things that can be done to minimise or even remove risk. Risk mitigation is an important skill.

Someone with NO parachuting experience and little life experience has a much lower likelihood of having that experience and skill to draw upon. This means that you have less ability and skill to be able to:
1 - recognise risks and hazards before they happen
2 - develop a plan of action to overcome or reverse situations prior to them occuring
3 - have the mental and physical aptitude to be able to assess scenarios as they are developing (As opposed to afterwards) AND to deal with them in real time
4- be able to honestly and critically assess your performance afterwards such that you can make incremental corrections.

I for one, am not willing to risk the life of MY child to validate your point. Because it has no benefit when my child is dead.

r.e. the comment I made about your parents, I have no right to say that they do or do not love you. Because I do not know your individual circumstances. But for them to think it is OK to BASE jump off antennas with NO parachuting experience shows either:
- an incredible amount of ignorance
- totally unfounded trust, OR
- someone to lie to them profusely to convince them otherwise.

It is kind of like letting your 12 year old out on a date with no curfew and no chaperones. Why not just hand them the condoms, STD/AIDS clinic phone number, or pregnancy clinic number.

Yes, there will always be exceptions. Yes, there are 16 yo who can do amazing things. But it is just plain dumb not to develop some fundamental parachuting skills in a more forgiving environment prior to BASE jumping. I would be more impressed with you if you had of developed prior parachuting experience and then started BASE jumping.

Concluding: since you are convinced of yourself and you will not listen otherwise, I can only say this: get nicked, build the right skills, become TRULY competant (actual as opposed to verbal), then come back and tell us how wonderful you truly are.

sence when did this discution become about me??? Oh yeah it didn't .I have only used my self as an example that it can be done safely.

It became a discussion about you when you used yourself as an example.

No this discution has been about a boy who wants to jump. usuing an example doesn't change the subject. Cause if it does then isn't this about 6 year olds with guns?

I think you have already answered your question.

I guess it became a discussion about you, when you used yourself as an example. No one mentioned you first but yourself.

My response was not about you. It was about you using your example as proof in relation to the original discussion. I (and some other people), are disputing your example as incomplete and flawed.

Why are you offended by this? It seems to me that you are after the attention and not trying to provide a logical / valid / reasoned argument to the original discussion. The fact that you have taken this personally only adds to the growing notion that maturity is questionable in your age group. Even if you have survived a year of BASE jumping and are ready (in your eyes) to be teaching other young persons.

Please explain how BASE can be done safely without prior parachuting experience? Give me some facts, data, logical reasoning. Please move away from the end result (i.e your continuing existance as proof that it is safe). If you can provide a reasoned debate, then perhaps people will respect you more than just for the "balls" that you seem to possess. They may also respect you some more for the maturity which you are attempting to convince many people that you have.

I am prepared to change my views. But you must give excellent reasoning for this to occur.

The ball is in your court.

No, it's about a 16 yo girl with balls!!!

I think the fundamental question proposed here is: what degree of awareness of one's own mortality qualifes you for BASE jumping and/or any other inherently life threatening sport? A sixteen year old rarely possesses the ability to conceptualize his or her own death. Hell, I've mulled over for roughly 24 years, and I can barely come to terms that one day I won't be among the living. It would be interesting to see what Matthew has to say about the high stakes game. Maybe he is wise beyond his years, or perhaps he has been coerced into the glorification of jumping. His word would speak volumes. In either case, I'd hope a mitigation of risk through more skydiving experience is pursued.

I think the issue here with the age is, some 16 years olds who would jump will think if they do it safely then its gunna be safe.
even if your the best shit hits the fan, look at slims vid.

when I was 16 I thought I'd never die, some how I literally thought I'd live to be really really old then medical advancements would help me live for ever lol.
I realised I could get severely injured in life but never thought I'd die.

now I'm 23 that seems like the dumbest thing to have ever thought, but many 16 year olds would be thinking like that and none would admit to it, no1 would have had a single clue I thought like that.

how many jumps does you have Clair?

Do you think that you at one year has become such a jump wonder that you can teach people?

Sorry to say but i vote for NO and i dont care if you made 500 jumps the past year..
And the above is some of the things i dont like when younger people get off...
To you BASe probaly is a cool thing to do so does most of your freinds,do you have the life experience to tell your freinds NO instead of teaching them?

What happens if your freind aint as good as you and ends up hurt or killed?

I would say that you both are too young to jump and WAY too young to mentor ANYone in the way of BASE...

That your doing good is cool,im happy you prove me wrong by the fact your arround us today.But even as you as one person has manneged to do it dosnt mean other will..

As of 841 i think he would be better off enjoying the world of skydive whith his son for a few hundreds jumps,making sure he can save him self the day he gets that offheadding(becourse it will come),giving his son the best oppertunetyes of surviving should be the best..

to base841...just curious out of your 100 base jumps how many are from the Twin Falls MacBridge?

Would you care to elaborate? Just curious as to how you feel his judgement is affected. Are you saying affected similar to "Boyfriends teaching BASE" as Tom has talked about or something different?

Coco

Yes, and no. There is whole subconscious (of both dad and son) that can make a big mess out of a situation. Emotions skew judgement.

"Dad, I am ready"...vs. "Mentor, I am ready"
"Son, you can do it now"... vs. "Student, you can do it now"
"Son, I am proud of you"... "Student, well done"
"Dad, did I do it right?"..."Mentor, what was the problem at ..."

That didn't really answer my question... How does the father/son relationship skew his judgment negatively? Those vs. don't really say how....

In my opinion I would feel that due to the close family relationship, BASE841 would be
more so careful in the types of jumps and weather conditions he allows his son to do out of fear for
his safety than in the situation Tom talks about with those who are romantically involved or a Male
Mentor hoping to achieve a romantic relationship from mentoring a female.



Unlike a Male mentor wanting to please the female he is attracted too, a father does not have to please his son. Parents say no to their children for most of the shit they want and want to do anyway. I don't think it would be any different when it comes to BASE. I would think a father would be more so likely to say no to jumping as a whole or tell a son that conditions are bad and he can't jump or is not ready and needs more canopy experience.

The only issue I see here, In My Opinion, is not the father/son relationship, or the son's age but that the son does not have enough canopy experience to be BASE jumping. Yes, 7 is better than none, but 100 is better than 7, and 200 is better than 100. Jumping off a bridge is not hard. I could teach one of my none jumper buddies that in ten minutes. The main concern is the abilities of the jumper after the canopy is open. Dad can't do shit for his son at that point. And neither can a Tom A. type mentor. I definitely think doing so from TF is a smarter idea than an A. As least with a 180 the kid can't have an object strike. Any other object to do this off of would not be the wisest decision. In order to be confident under canopy and under pressure one must spend a great deal of time under canopy learning and feeling first hand. Being under canopy for a minute or two after each jump after 7 skydives does not give you the knowledge and muscle memory ability to be able to deal with types of things you will experience in the BASE environment (Quickness in heading control, being able to read landing pattern from different altitudes, accuracy, and so on). It is never a wise decision to enter BASE with a low amount of skydives but it can be done.

Look at it from another view. Regardless of age, sex, maturity...A driver behind the wheel of a car faced with seconds to react to an accident. Who is going to react faster and more appropriate. A driver who has spent a few hours behind the wheel or someone with years of experience. Common sense can answer this question. BUT like the situation with Clair, some people can have a natural ability to react quickly and effectively in avoiding the accident regardless of how inexperience they are.

Lets also ponder this? What about a son teaching his father to BASE??? Take the "young kid" element out and analyze the father/son teaching element now. Hmmmmmmm......

Coco

Edit: Spelling

In the modern world, this statement can be so far from the truth that it hurts. Why? Mum and Dad are divorced. Dad only has son on weekends and wants to impress the hell out of him and give him a good time. Dad may feel some degree of guilt or inadequacy in his involvement and contribution to the boys upbringing. BASE jumping is a great shortcut. I don't think that this is the case in the scenario in this thread. But it can happen.

What if dad was a career jockey and gave his son nothing for 16 years. Now he feels like he is about to lose him permanently to the grown up world. . . . Do you know the song "cats in the cradle and the silver spoon.."? This is a prime example of what the lyrics of the song say.


Using that logic, jumping off anything is not hard. Its the bit after exit that may requires some attention. Do NOT forget that bridges have claimed their fair share of our brethren.


The main concern is the following:
- is the person suitable
- have they been trained appropriately
- can they do a stable exit
- are they able to initiate deployment in a safe way
- it is only then that the canopy skill issue comes into the equation. Now, if a person was smart, they would knock this baby on the head as an issue before they got to the bridge. That is why parachuting from an aircraft at altitude is extremely beneficial for any prospective BASE jumper. No matter what any 16 yo girl would say (sorry, had to throw that in. I am a bitch!).

i.e. the whole package is a concern. If you treat BASE accodingly, you get to live longer, do funkier tricks, have more fun, travel around and do more sites, meet awesome people (and a few loonies), etc.

Are 16 yo capable. Their will always be exceptions to the affirmative. Exceptions rather than the rule!!!!!


The little shit just wants his inheritance quicker!!!!!!!

One of my experiences with kids and dads and BASE - I remember seeing Zoo (JM) mentoring his son following a paragliding mishap. He told me that his son was not ready for BASE and that if he caught him anywhere near an object with a rig on, he would kick his arse. He had lots of time on paragliders but dad felt his maturity was not there. This is a dad who clocked up over 1000 BASE jumps when everyone else thought 200 was a big deal.

Good Morning Gang,

This discussion has made for some interesting reading......here is my input:

1. Acceptance of one's own mortality is not necessarily connected to participation in risky behavior. There are people who meditate, are genuinely religious, and/or have had extreme life experiences that are truly comfortable with their own death. However, simply being willing to die does NOT make one a skillful parachutist.

2. Teaching is not always easy and having an emotional connection with the student can sometimes makes things more difficult.

3. Assume for a moment that in the future I would be qualified to teach BASE, I would never teach my Dad to BASE jump because: he has only 155 skydives, lacks the skills, and most importantly, I love him and do not want to contribute to his death.

4. Why do some jumpers want to skip skydiving?!? It is fun, much more safe than BASE, and a great environment to learn about canopy flight. Plus it allows you to learn and experience how your mind & body communicate while jacked up on adrenaline.

5. If you are not smarter and more mature at 30 than you were at 16 then you have ceased to learn and grow.

6. What can be 'Correct' for one is usually 'Wrong' for most.

First, I don't quite understand the "willing to die" thing. Isn't that a bit like being willing to fall when you step off an object?

Second, I don't think we can ever be comfortable with our own death. We can be comfortable with the idea of our own death. But it's been my (limited) experience that the idea and the thing itself are two completely different things.

To accept mortality (of ourselves and of those around us), I think we need to realize how much it's going to suck, and that we have no way of mitigating that, and then we need to make choices with that information in hand. Pretending that the loss of someone close to us could be a positive experience is denial, not acceptance.

With that said, I think we learn to accept mortality by experiencing it. No matter how smart we are, or how philosophical, there is no substitute for real-world experience here. Although there are (unfortunately) cases of 16-year-olds with a great deal of real-world experience in these matters, as a general rule this experience comes with time on the planet.

The value of this experience with mortality is that it gives us a slightly clearer picture of what we're getting into. I'm not saying that youth should exclude someone from learning to BASE jump, but I certainly think it should raise some red flags.

Michael

It does skew judgement, sometimes it may be good, sometimes not. In any case it is not impartial anymore.

Doctors do not treat own family members.
Lawyers do not represent their own family members

hell, why wait until they are 16?

You've got some very good points Michael that generally people don't comprehend.

It's not about accepting your mortality. I believe everyone knows than can and will die. I think people really need to understand THEY CAN DIE ON THIS JUMP! It can and will happen.

People tend to rationalize away this very permanent outcome far too often. You hear yourselves and other saying things like:

"Yeah, but that person shouldn't have been doing that jump, in that weather, with that gear, from that object..."

"Well he was really pushing the edge."

"But I don't do jumps like that."

"He didn't consider the consequences of an offheading."

and on and on...

It's human nature. It's how we continue through life when hit by one catastrophic event after another. But in BASE it is not safe to rationalize in this manner.

When I think about my son BASE jumping, he's only five but I still think about it, I consider all the following:

I can't wait for him to have the experience.

I don't really want him to try it.

I can't imagine if he got hurt or killed.

I don't want to teach him.

I'm the only one I would want teaching him.

I don't want to teach anyone.

I don't even encourage people to BASE jump.

I think people should be discouraged from BASE jumping.

I sure want to be there when he does it.

and on and on...

I don't criticize Dave for teaching he son. I think he did a very good job of minimizing the risk and informing his son of the possible consequences. I don't believe Dave will let his son go jumping without him present, but kids are people too and they will do what they do. When you have responsibility for that person there is a whole other set of things to consider.

If you can't deal with the reality of the injury/death present in this sport than don't do it!

If you think "That won't happen to me/them" then it's definitely time to reassess the situation. It only takes once!

Have fun, live fulfilled, but never lose sight of the possible consequences.

those pictures simply show packers in training!

I believe that to live a meaningful life I must take risks. Taking risks is done in two parts, risk assesement and risk management. Once I asses the risks and determine a plan to manage them I must take action. I do not think about mortality, I think I have assesed the risks and created a plan to manage them and then I give up control (not saying you stop reacting but you have given way to possible negative reactions that you will have to deal with).

The problem in this thread is a control problem. People do not want to give up control over themselves or the ones they love. This applies to many areas of life besides BASE and must be dealt with on a person by person or relationship by relationship level.

I wish my parents were at least interested in my activites (or at the least accepting). I think a father will take the extra effort to asses the risks and create as safe as possible a plan to manage those risks.

PS: I do want to do or at least try BASE. I assesed the risk and created a plan to manage it. My plan was to do a tandem skydive (done), complete AFF (done), complete my UPSA A license (almost done), and later gain more expierience (long way from done). This is not the plan for everyone, it is the plan for me.

The concern I would have is that experienced jumpers forget all too easily what it was like to be a student. Indeed, fear is what holds most of us back to start, but familiarity sets in after a while and you forget, unless you have that teaching knowledge. BASE isn't that difficult in terms of sequence of events and what needs to be done. Carrying that through under extreme stress is a different matter.

I would especially expect, as a parent, it would be all too easy to lose objectivity in training one's son/daughter and to either overestimate their abilities, or fail to hold them back when appropriate.