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Question: What are your feelings toward using a tailgate on slider up jumps?

"it's not something that has been thoroughly tested; you should wait until it is"

???

This is a poll just to get the general perception of how people feel on this subject. I personally have been using a tailgate on slider up jumps as well as slider down. Slider up I do not use a "full" tailgate; I cut the band thinner and only wrap it twice.

I am going to refrain from giving my reasons for now because I would like to see what the more experienced jumpers have to say.

*Please post why you choose the way you do

I will mostly use 2 wraps of masking tape on the same lines I tailgate, This shouldn't interfear with the slider at alll

What size mesh is on your slider? I ASSume its small?

I prefer masking tape though, its been consistent for me from 4-20+ seconds.
Also, maybe PM K (I think she's with Apex) as I remember reading about her experimenting with tail gate slider up jumps.
Good luck,
Blair

Maybe someone can explain what the tailgate is going to do that the slider wouldn't already, especially if using direct control on the slider to keep the lines together until the last moment?

Just seems:

1) Another fiddly thing to do, and therefore adds risk
2) Doesn't seem to add anything (in terms of additional safety) that isn't covered already

The view I got whilst on my FJC (and more than one person) was: "Leave the Americans to experiment"

Is direct control not to ensure that the slider stays up in the pack job and not descend prematurely rather than keeping the lines together until the last moment? I have always thought that this was the idea of direct control, that and as a back up to indirect control (or when indirect is not used at all). How many lines do you bite your slider to?

But hey I am a slider down slut so my understanding of theory may be fucked

But I do agree, what exactly is a tailgate on slider up do that a slider and a wrap of masking tape cant do more simply and without added (small) risk of hang up?

Open-minded as always, I see....

I believe there are very valid reasons to use a tailgate while jumping slider up.

Probably far more applicable to unpacked slider up jumps than packed jumps, but still valid.

I will go so far to say that on sub-terminal slider up jumps a tailgate stages your deployment a little more, encourages a nose-first inflation and therefore more consistent openings with better heading performance.

I have heard plenty of people talk about the risk of slider/tailgate entanglement with a large mesh slider, but not ONE has ever even HEARD of this happening.

I know one experienced jumper who has SEEN FOUR people get line-overs doing slider up rollovers without tailgates. None of the FOUR could clear their line-over before landing in the snake river.

Bring on the standard british disdain for the Perrine bridge because it's not 'real' basejumping, but if you hang out there for a while, you get to see a LOT of jumps and you tend to notice things you otherwise would probably not.

I use the slidergate, a tailgate sewn into the center of the trailing edge of the slider.

I use the "tape gate", but don't have many slider up jumps. 12 of them to be exact.

 

I use a slidergate on longer delays since it achieves the same purpose and is already tested in the field. I use direct slider control on shorter delays. Using tape in very hot and humid environments can cause the tape to bleed its glue singnificantly. This is particularly a problem if the rig is packed for more than a couple days.

I appreciate the feedback I have received on this post as well as the PM's. To answer the question up a few posts; i'm using a small mesh slider.

More questions.

How many slider down (with tailgate) jumps have you seen end with a line over? (assuming it wasn't trashpacked)

How many slider up (assuming no tailgate in use) jumps have you seen end with a line over?


My reason for using the tailgate is because even though the slider should prevent a line over; if it happens i cannot release my steering lines. Also, as mentioned above - staging of the opening. Maybe it is 'redundant' but at the same time I have that added precaution and I'm aware of it standing at exit. If it is only for my conscience thats fine as long as what i'm doing won't help aid in the end of my life. Gear fear at exit sucks.

I am very new to the sport and could be totally wrong in the way I'm thinking; but that's why I wanted experienced jumpers to chime in.

After reading the responses I've received I may change some things up a bit but would really like more feedback from others experimenting with slider up tailgate use (even if modified - ie "slider gate"/or masking tape). I like the masking tape idea and have considered taking the first 3 inches or so and folding it backwards before putting around my lines and wrapping twice - that way the 'hot & humid' environment I live in won't cause the sticky stuff to stay on my lines if i'm packed for a while prior to jumping. That would cause the tape to be able to slide up and down freely though; could that cause a problem in your eyes?

Thanks again.

Use WLO/line release toggles! Apex makes great ones. Not having them is as barbaric as not using line mod slider-down.

Masking tape works great and doesn't seem to affect the lines at all. I do not see any reason to replace the tape with a tailgate for slider-up jumps.

bsbd!

Yuri.

Didn't those just get recalled?

(joking!)

Yuri, so I can assume that you do not use any type of control on your lines when slider up? Do you think there would be any added benefit to using some sort or another or completely a waste of time? Feel free to PM me if needed; I'm starting to figure out how big of a 'grey area' this topic really is for people to post about publicly.

Replaced with a better version, to be exact

I personally like and use the original Vertigo WLO version (snap risers), they release the lines instantly.


I use masking tape sometimes, but don't stress over it. Most of the time i do not use any extra type of control.

bsbd!

Yuri.

My new WLO toggles are an extremely good design and I think they are worth recommending to the general jumping public.

I have experience with masking tape in our local area and it bleeds glue badly. I have been in other areas of the country where this was never a problem.

Use some slider control until you get some WLO toggles.

The affect of the tape is good but the glue from masking tape is a problem, hmm...

Has anyone used 'blue' painters tape?

I've used it painting outside in Florida (hot & humid) and never saw it leave any residue.

Do you use them on your slider down jumps too? Could they replace the LRM?

Will do

'use WLO toggles in case of a slider-up lineover' (which I will defininetly invest in) but why not have an extra precaution to help prevent the slider-up line over before you open and find yourself spinning and need to use your WLO toggles? Help lower the chance of it happening before it does. Right? Ok, i'm crawling back to my corner now.

Could they? Probably. Will you ever be able to pull a little ring on the toggle while spinning to clear a lineover as fast as throwing the entire toggle? Probably not.

I know of some jumpers who use in the WLO toggles instead of the line mod. I'm not personally good enough to do this.

In regard to Amanduh going back to your corner, why would you possibly feel this way as a beginner regarding initiating a technical discussion?

The original Vertigo toggles weren't suitable for slider-down jumps. The pin wasn't strong enough and got bent on slider-down openings.

I believe I heard Jimmy from Apex say the new system is stronger and suitable for slider down jumps.


Having done about twenty WLO toggle releases for fun, I'd say they are about the same speed. WLO has the drawback that you need to reach for the little ring whereas LRM has the advantage that you can just grab for the entire biggrab toggle. On the other hand, a WLO clearance leaves just a line to jump away so there is zero risk of your toggle becoming stuck in your lines. With the LRM you typically want to make sure you throw the toggle well away from whatever is above your head. Not sure how much of a deal this is in practice...

exatly....and if you are unsure...use WLOs...they´re great

piece....fastpete

I saw a slider up line over from #7 kjerag last year.

He had WLO toggles and released 'em but it didnt clear the line over. Luckily he was in a prodigy and had tracked over the water so only got wet when he spiralled in.

so some sort of slider up tail gate may help reduce risk of line over - I personally use masking tape

Is there any more information and analysis on this incident? Was the line wrapped multiple times? Was a hookknife attempt made? What was the configuration of the line-over? Is there video?

It looked to me that it wasnt (just) a brake line over the nose but maybe a D or C, bit too far to see.

From what I recall he tried a couple of deep flares to try to release the line over (which BTW sometimes works but didnt this time) then released the offending toggle. Canopy was still mal'd up and did about a 270 before pounding him in. He would have been right f#cked up if it had been on the land - but as he wasnt we couldnt be bothered doing further analysis - there was another load to catch. Human natures a funny thing eh.

I have some Vertigo WLOs on my slider up rig, and not only are they great for a potential lineover clearing, but they make slider-up to slider-down a breeze.

I've also been using masking tape on the control lines only for slider up, wrapped sticky out, and its worked great. Additionally, I've been using tape instead of a dacron/rubber band around the tailgate lines for slider down, and began testing a second, single wrap of tape around the control lines also, since you can get up there with tape, and can't really control them with the rubber band idea. Seems like a good idea, its been working well since.

As far as masking tape and hot/humid/extended packs- A dropzone that I worked at was hot and humid, and also still put vids on VHS. When I was out there, we used the long/thin VCR tape labels instead. It was paper, advertised for the dropzone on urban jumps, wasn't going to hang up and and spin you into the ground like damp masking tape could...

I always use masking tape. even slider off.

Ha. Very funny.

I just don't believe everything I'm told until I can corroborate and truly understand it. Why should I? There's far too much rubbish and/or inappropriate advice floating around out there.


There are other ways of doing this too, like exposing the centre nose cell, not wrapping the tail around the AB fold in the packjob...

What ever happened to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid?) Risk comes from adding complexity; I'm still not convinced that adding this additional complexity does anything beneficial that isn't already handled by something else.


We're clearly not talking about unpacked jumps here; let's limit the discussion to packed jumps. Besides, did those concerned pay enough attention preparing their unpacked jumps? Clearing the lines etc?

Mac's question:

But doesn't the slider also function to keep the lines from flapping about and prevent line-over, and wouldn't the effectiveness of this be reduced if the slider came down prematurely?

(I just have my slider "attached" via a black elastic band to 1 line btw)


You said that, not me

So you are assuming that you are smart enough to be able to truly understand everything?



because nobody is smart enough to truly understand everything

especially people who are willing to cast themselves into the void with nothing more than a single parachute to save their life...



I always do both of those things.



OK, time to play the jump numbers card:

I base my statements regarding the effect of using the tailgate slider up subterminal on more PACKED slider up jumps from the 486 ft Perrine Bridge than you have basejumps in total.

For a control group I also have more slider up subterminal jumps without a tailgate than you have total basejumps.

Do you still want to argue that just because you do not truly understand why this works that my observations are invalid?

I have a lot of video of these two different slider up packjobs opening and it's interesting viewing.




Where did anyone say that?


why? unpacked jumps are valid too.

rollovers are quite different in opening dynamics in the early stages of deployment than other unpacked jumps, but slider-up TARDS, TARDOVERS and HO-BAGS very much behave like a packed slider up deployment once you have hit linestretch



I do not know.

Do you pay enough attention?

Do you truly believe that by packing super neat you will never get a line-over?



it's a handy side-effect, but plenty of slider up line-overs have proven that it is not 100% effective in this regard



if you start with a line around the nose or a piece of stabiliser fabric poking out between the lines and catching air, I'm not sure delaying the slider's descent will make any difference at all




on a side note:

currency has a huge effect on awareness

I was noticing all kinds of things at the end of a 17 day stay in Twin Falls during which time I did 101 jumps.

No real chance of object strike, an easy landing area and daylight makes it real easy to be able to pay a lot of attention to your deployments.

On most of my night jumps I rarely get the time to look at my canopy, I am feeling it and paying attention to the object, altitude and landing area.

I think we are arguing the same point here.

Your statement seemed to suggest that the whole point of direct control was to control the lines, NOT to control the slider that will then control the lines......

Its the same as someone saying a tailgate is there to stop a line over.... its not....its to stop tail inversion / flutter / encourage nose first inflation............. which will then help to stop a line over