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OK everyone, What is your opinion on using a RAVEN IV as a base canopy? What would you consider the height limitations to be? It already has a tail pocket installed. What other mods would you recommend?

Is it just me or does anyone else agree that in today’s day and age people need to stop modifying skydiving gear into BASE gear. Back in the day, yes! It was a necessity because there were no companies out there making BASE specific gear.

But with all the different companies and all the different BASE specific canopies out there I see no need to modify gear. If you can’t afford new, buy used. If you can’t afford used or don’t want used, save up your money. I think people are looking at this issue similar to something like buying cloths and not wanting or feeling that it is necessary to buy the “name brand.” I think its bad news to feel that you can take something from another sport and “make something suitable for base.” Personally, I don’t want “suitable.” I want specific.

Anyone else agree?

Coco

If you are not trolling here is my 0.02.

A Super Raven IV will make a fine BASE tarp after few simple mods like a tailgate, tail pocket, and properly tuned DBS.

Stay away from the Ravens (before 03/88), they are junk and they do not make decent BASE tarps.

Will it open cleaner than a BJ 280? No. Will it glide and swoop like a composite Ace 280? No.

Nonetheless it'll make a decent BASE Tarp.

I just picked up a Super Raven III for my wife.

And by the way, if you are a light jumper (less than 150 LBS or so) a Fury 220 also makes for a decent BASE tarp but it does not seem your case.

As for the height it depends...not all 220s are borne equal. If you got a nice landing area beneath you it's one thing, if you got boulders or obstacles to clear with a good glide then it's another story. Ravens have a very steep angle of incidence and a SR IV is a big tarp to inflate w/out the extra help of valves.

I'd jump a SR III in virtually 99% of all my jumps.

Thanks for the feedback. As a rigger I understand that sometimes "specific" is important. On the other hand what specifically are the differences in opening and flight characteristics of a Raven IV and a BASE specific canopy?

In my experience, the Ravens have worse pressurization slider down than any BASE-specific canopy yet produced (with the possible exception of the Mustang--but that's another story).

When laid on top of a BASE specific canopy for comparison, the differences are quite evident. The stabilizer is a different size and shape, the crossports are differently sized and arranged, the trim of the canopy is not as steep, and the line trim is arranged differently.

All in all, I think this leads to Ravens with noticeably worse pressurization than virtually all BASE canopies.

Here's the kicker:

This is most noticeable at large sizes, and verges on imperceptible on very small sizes. If you're small enough that a Raven I is the right size for BASE, you may just be blessed with an abundance of passable BASE canopies for cheap. If you're a big fatso like me, though, you'll find that the Raven IV really isn't going to do the trick.

Bottom line? I'd stay away from the Raven IV for BASE. That's not necessarily the case for appropriately wingloaded Raven I's and perhaps II's, though.


Oh, and to echo what Nitro said: Tune the heck out of your DBS. The last time I watched (from above) a Raven II with untuned DBS deploy slider down, the tremendous forward speed of the canopy shattered the jumpers legs on object strike, and eventually took them from him for the rest of his life. Don' be that guy on the next go round.

KevinMcGuire would probably be able add to that if he chooses. He jumped the Raven IV for a lot of jumps before a large enough BASE canopy was produced.

..."In my experience, the Ravens have worse pressurization slider down than any BASE-specific canopy yet produced (with the possible exception of the Mustang--but that's another story). "
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I GOT to disagree with that statement. There is nothing wrong with the way a Raven-IV pressurizes non-slider for BASE. Nothing - Nada - zero. It pressurizes fast, Set-up stable and on heading & Lands Good. I have never had a bad jump on a Raven that I modified for BASE. You might have been having problems with your Raven because you did not have it set-up properly and did not take time to learn the specifics of that particular 7-cell wing. It's not a FOX, Mojo, Flik, BlackJack, V-tec. Nor a piece of SHIT Mustang. It is a Raven.
It is not my first preference for a lower shear-face object though. Or A Really-Tight-Landing spot. For that I go for a dialed in BASE specific canopy. The Raven is a thinner profile wing that is a little sporty but can do the job where you have a little more liberal on the clearance on a 180 deg off heading.
Every manufactured Wing has a 'design of flight' .Fly-It, Learn It. KNOW - IT.
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Please do not risk your life jumping Raven IV in base environment. i can actually take it off your hands for proper disposal. what is the color and DOM?

I've gotten responses from one end of the spectrum to the other. I'm convinced that I will need a base specific canopy and before I jump certain objects. However, I also can see that with the right environment and height that I shouldn’t have an issue with the canopy. I’ve never jumped it so I’m planning on making a couple of hop n pops to check it out prior to doing a real base jump. I plan on jumping a local “A” and then Bridge Day. After that I’m sure it will be retired or sold.

I appreciate all of the feedback.

Tom
its a parachute and a dam fine won and I do have over 200 base jumps on a raven and my raven 2 was a swooping machine now that may not be important to people that just want to jump and land and just survive but I want to have an all around kick ass experiance.
and ow yah u can buy a raven for 200 bucks or a black jack for 1800. but thats because the mexicans they pay 3 bucks a day making them which have no health benifits and work in sweat shops in mexico yah thats right not deland mexico your money your tax dollars i buy american but then again im not a sell out
this buy no means an atack on you TOM know you love ravens

So were you jumping your ultra hip Raven when you were "hanging" around Moab?

Performing a TARD over off a cliff, using shallow brake settings, was not the canopies fault.

If it is an original raven I can do mods to the pilot chute att. point. If it is a super raven you just need DBS and a tailgate. I have all the machinery to fix it up,PM for details.

People don't just send you their gear because you have equipment, they do it because they trust you with their lives.


While we're on that topic:

I've heard that the original Ravens had problems with slider up deployments (things like very long snivels and sliders getting stuck up) on subterminal jumps, but that this was not a problem with the Super Ravens. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Too ground hungry. It is trimmed too steep. If you have a 180, you will be glad to have a BASE specific canopy.

I know you're right.... it was user error

Some older Ravens had slow Slider action with sail-sliders but the fix of the manufacture was a Bikini-Slider. the bikini or a mesh slider will bring the slider action up to par. I have jumped the bikini slider on many BASE jumps without any problems.
The WEAK SPOT to be concerned about with older raven was the absence of reinforcement tape in the Tail-Seam.. On slider down jumps the flaw of this is tearing of break-line attachment points and fabric near by. The problem is easily fixed by just sewing a length of 1-inch tape over the length of tail seam where the attachment points are. takes about 20 minutes and a sewing machine.
The other WEAK SPOT to be concerned about is the deployment by PCA or Static Line. After EVERY time this is done. you should check the integrity of canopy between upper and lower skins @ the bridal attachment point.
The desired modifications for the Raven are:
Canopy with Dacron Lines & Tail Pocket. It will serve well on may jumps. For real, I have even seen D.J. while on a Cliff jump. Open on-Heading, Fly and land a Raven-lll with 3 Ripped out cells on the lower Canopy Skin. A nice smooth landing also.
The Raven is a great BASE Canopy for any knowledgable BASE jumper. Unless you are some kind of BASE wanbee-pussy with 2 pierced rings in your lower-lip with only a 150 skydives and have no knowledge of HOW to FLY and Properly Pilot a 7-cell Canopy. But if you are or anywhere like this kind of Canopy Deficient FuckUp you shouldn't be BASE jumping anyway. Stay the hell away from BASE jumping & Go back to your mandatory assigned USPA dive coach and suck his Tit.
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The original Raven and the Super are two very different wings. For one, the Super is higher aspect ratio, 2.1/ 1 I believe. The internal reinforcing in the Raven was run straight up the rib from the line att. point, so force from the line load point loaded to the upper surface. the Super has load tapes interlocked in a "V" configuration forcing the wing to take shape under load. I believe the over-hang of the Raven upper surface was less than the Super, providing less "Ram-Air" effect for pressurization. Camber height plays a role in "How much air will it take to fill this dang thing up?" Some bad rap on the Raven might be from less knowledge of brake setting, worn out canopies, ect. Ray has a very valid point about the tail on the Raven not having reinf. tape, I guess that's why I bought a 3/4" double needle so i can do stuff like that.

In my experience, heading is really iffy on subterminal slider up and unpacked jumps. It flies zippier than most BASE canopies, which is fun if you don't have to set it down on a dime. Heading and pressurization probably aren't consistent enough for technical/low stuff. Makes a great B rig canopy and I'd trust it to jumps that have a few hundred feet and nothing to strike (P bridge is a perfect example).

Many here started BASE prior to dedicated BASE canopies being available so I'm not anal about skydiving canopies and BASE jumping, but I'm wary. I suppose it's because when the question comes up it's often a new BASE jumper trying to get by on the cheap. We all did that in the beginning.

I had a front row seat during development of the first BASE canopies when my former girlfriend Anne H. built the prototype FOX in the late 1980s. What made this canopy different was it was purpose driven. These are the days before tailgates, before vents, before everything else, but when Anne sat down and started to sew that first canopy together she knew it was going to be used for single canopy BASE jumping. And her friends would be betting the farm on it - so she took care to make sure it would hold up.

The project was kept semi-secret as the canopy was test jumped and then sold locally and covertly until I ran the first advert for it in the Fixed Object Journal. About the same time, and out of the blue, Adam F. sent me an advert for his first BASE canopy, the Mojo. Adam had also been working quietly on his canopy for sometime so it's hard to say which is first or even if it matters. The important thing being the BASE gear industry, which had been building BASE rigs for years, finally had BASE canopies to go with them.

The main reason for a BASE canopy was simple. While we weren't completely blowing up the skydiving canopies we were using, we were experiencing damage. I had a Cruislite with about 70 BASE jumps on it, mostly night-time slider down building jumps, and I blew the center cell out of it and damn near lost the entire bridle attachment point. I repaired the damage and reinforced the area but it blew out again twenty jumps later.

The thing with jumping skydiving canopies today is simply that you don't have to do it. And you'll always have it in the back of your head at the launch point that you are doing something out of the ordinary. And since BASE itself is already out of the ordinary, using the wrong gear just make it extra-ordinary. And if anything happens to you, be it an accident you live through, or if the worst happens, everyone will blame it on jumping the wrong gear even if that wasn't the case.

Nowadays, we are lucky – you just have to avail yourself of that luck. There must be ten or more BASE canopies on the worldwide market and that market isn't exactly a new one. Finding a used & good-sized BASE canopy might be better than buying a brand new skydiving canopy for BASE. If you are on the small or light side, it's a great time to buy used. The upsize trend in BASE canopies that started in the 1990s means there are more than a few first generation 220-ish sized BASE canopies sitting in closets. Also, with the surge in the number of BASE jumpers lately– the folks who start, go hard for awhile, and stop goes up too - so that gear's on the market.

Its funny now, but I remember that first canopy making the rounds and other BASE jumpers asking what it was. Anne would just say it had no markings or numbers and it had been lying around the loft for years. So a lot of people saw the prototype FOX and never knew it . . .

NickD
BASE 194

your right tom but sliders are black death just take 3 seconds and pull newbies dont need to be practicing areils and jumping big walls.

and to the dude asking about Moab yes i was useing a raven but i was screeming black death while doing a tard over with shallow brake setting

You should have been wearing that wedding dress I saw you in a couple of years ago in GA to make the jump even better, knucklehead

no shit remember when i pissed on the floor of that resturant we were in bec ause i was so drunk and could not get the dress off needless to say Kurt Gabel did not think it was to funny but i did

Hello,
My first canopy for BASE was a Raven III,
purchased brand new in custom colors.
That canopy rocked!
The Mojo is a fine canopy,
but I can't buy a new one now.
When recently faced with assembling an all new rig,
I chose a Raven III again.
My choice was based on my experience.
"There must be ten or more BASE canopies on the worldwide market",
not all are good, in my opinion.

A skydiving reserve canopy is built to be your last resort,
your life saver,
I don't mind starting there on a BASE jump.
It doesn't change the odds either, in my opinion.
It's still 50/50.

I have a Raven IV modified for BASE and it's been a great BASE canopy. As with any canopy, one has to learn it's limits and understand how it flies. There are some jumps I prefer the Raven on and others I've learned never to take it off again.

I wouldn't say one canopy is 'safer' than another, as though your chances of death or injury are reduced by the canopy you fly. I wouldn't say one canopy is more 'dangerous' than another. As DW once told me: "A good canopy pilot can have perfect jumps and landings on even a bad canopy, whereas a bad canopy pilot will always have poor canopy flights and performance no matter how great a canopy you give them.".

It's better to become skilled and adept with a canopy you are comfortable with, understand how you fly it, and how it handles and adjust your jumping accordingly.

I've met people who believe it's a good idea for new jumpers to experiments with all manner of canopies with the hope of finding a favorite or one that they prefer. This means that new jumpers are constantly jumping with gear they are unfamiliar with. They then attribute early successes and injuries to things like objects, canopies, containers, etc. Finding a configuration that fits comfortably, a canopy of an appropriate size and state of repair, and then jumping that gear configuration until you know it like the back of your hand, gives you some constants in your jumping. It allows you to investigate the other variables at play in a BASE jump and improve your understanding of your own jumping and the sport. In addition it also gives you the delicate understanding of your gear so that you -can- tell the differences between difference canopies.

Someone with many jumps on a Raven IV (such as Avery) is going to be much better (and safer) jumper than a newbie with few skydives who just bought the latest and greatest BASE specific canopy.

Best of luck.

-=Raistlin

I made a direct comparison between my Ace 240 and my Super Raven III (PIA 240).

The Ace has a thicker profile hence it is probably able to generate more low-speed lift but it won't fly as fast as the Raven.


The stabilizer of the Ace is bigger.


The Ace has three sets, the Raven two, the X-ports between the C and D lines are missing on the Raven. On the Ace the front X-port is much bigger made out of three oval cuts instead of one on the Raven. The center X-port is comparable on both, and the last X-port on the Ace is much smaller than the center one (about 1/2 the size).


The Ace has a shallower angle of incidence, read the Raven is "steeper" unlike what Tom claims.


The main differences here are that the lines of the Ace are longer, as per CR "tradition" and on the Ace they are spread apart more.