Basejumper.com - archive

First, thank you for this post and reviewing the video Hookitt… I have been in your shoes and its life changing.

Just to be clear… The rest of this reply is directed at the post and not directed at you Hookitt… Also, my reply is not necessarily only about Shannon, especially because I was not there nor did I see the video. It is just food for thought…

My thought is that I have always been concerned about people jumping sliders at Perrine. The reason I say so is because if it were a cliff we wouldn’t dare do it. So this leads me to beg the question, has the trend of jumping a slider at Perrine lead up to this fatality. Meaning, how close can you take it to down at Perrine and not think your margin for recovery is drastically reduced. Personally, I never jump a slider at Perrine and the only time I take more than a 2 is when I’m doing a gainer. And even when I do gainers, my pitch is still damn close to a 2-2+… Basically I don’t care what the object is; I’ll never intentionally use a slider for anything less than 5 seconds...

So to break down what I’m saying… My opinion is that the second you do something for comfort rather than safety in BASE, like put on a slider for a soft opening, you have already made your first mistake. Meaning, just like skydiving, it is usually your sum of your mistakes that lead to your final demise. So why put on a slider and start that slippery slope?

Please understand that I do not believe that removing your slider at Perrine will stop/reduce fatalities… What I do believe is that we can at least reduce fatalities/injuries if we approach all objects, even Perrine, with the respect they deserve. Meaning, apply the rules you live by in BASE everywhere you go, especially at Perrine.

In my book, Perrine has proved to be the most dangerous object to date… Can we even count all the moderate to serious injuries that have happened at Perrine? I’m willing to bet we can’t! Has a place like Norway even had this many mishaps??? Again, I’m willing to bet no, simply because cliffs naturally demand respect.

All in all, out of all the air I just let out… I’m hoping one sentence above sticks in everyone’s mind; “Apply the rules you live by in BASE everywhere you go, especially at Perrine”…

Again, just food for thought…

Michael

edit for thread title ~TA

Not an attack at all.

Shannon's death had nothing to do with the slider set up.

Jumping slider up or down at the perrine, like all jumps, is a personal choice. a sub 500 bridge IS different than a sub 500 cliff. This bridge even more so. This bridge like all need to be respected, yet it is an object where you can get away with a lot. Too much sometimes.

Perrine: slider up or down, take the same delay. 3+ max (normally), anymore well....

OK... Let's definitely exclude Shannon from this... Because I am speaking more to all the incidents that could have been avoided at Perrine, usually because of alcohol and/or high winds were involved. I only posted my thoughts here because it is a good forum for the topic. The reason, I think we're too focused on what she did with her pilot chute at pitch time and not the entire jump. This includes the mental preparation prior to the jump…


This is where I totally disagree with you… A 500ft cliff and a 500ft bridge are still 500ft off the ground. This incident was not an object strike… I’m only drawing the correlation between the mentality of using a slider on Perrine and the complacency that it displays. To support that thought… It is well know that even 4 seconds is pushing it with a slider. So yes, not being safe is a personal choice. But if you choose to be unsafe, please don’t come on dropzone.com wondering how the hell you had a malfunction when you know things like a short delay with a slider is down right not safe, no matter the object.

Not to mention, you have to admit that Perrine is not respected the way it should be... For example, is there as much drinking at your local objects as there is at Perrine? Or what about the general mentality that Perrine is Disney Land for BASE???

All in all, I’m just saying we should analyze everything about an incident before we conclude it is a matter of time before we all die from a pc mal. I personally believe that a pc mal is preventable or at least can be dealt with by doing the appropriate gear configuration for the given object, therefore giving yourself more time to deal with the pc mal. PC mal’s are no different than 180’s; we need to face them head on by training for them. Meaning, we practice our handles in the airplane before we skydive, so why don’t we practice our pc pitch before every jump? I do it religiously! Not to mention, there is not a jump that I don’t mentally visualize from exit, to pitch, to flight pattern, to flare… Such an extreme sport, as BASE is, demands at least that much respect…

Michael

So what if one jumps there to dial in their canopy for slider up subterminal? The reason for me would be to avoid that slippey slope somewhere less forgiving. I feel that if we all approach an object with the respect that you deem necessary for you, then the advancement of the sport would be greatly compromised. I do agree somewhat with you about respect of BASE sites. But like the split thread about when to quit. I quit when I decide to. Not by anyone else's opinion on when I should. Albeit, I've been around and seen more than most jumpers.
The tag that makes this sport one of the greatests and one of the most dangerous is the fact that one can make one's own decisions about if it's doable or not. No S&TA to say it's too windy for you. One has to think for themselves in this new environment without speed limits. This is where I see the danger of the sport lies. Too many authorities keeping too many away from the vicinity of the edge so when they do venture into that zone for the first times that is when they are most likely to pay the ultimate price. This brings up to me what is the best way to learn where the edge is. Through, teacher, instructor, trainer, mentor, or oneself. Once again it is up to the individual and that individual will certainly reap the rewards or suffer the consequences of the decision.
Think about this disjointed post I am making and realize that there may be a lesson in it.
take care,
space

Trust me, I walk the line in BASE… But I take risk in the unknown not the known (e.g. How to properly use a slider.)

Again, I don’t care what anyone does… I don’t care if someone doesn’t pull all together. I’m only saying that if you choose not to pull, don’t come on dropzone.com and only analyze why the pc didn’t inflate in your BOC. I’m just saying to analyze the entire picture, and not a single aspect of it…


I always laugh when people try to school me… I’m open to learning more in BASE from other, but don’t forget we were living this thing we call life far before we BASE’d. And a lot of people who came into BASE, come from equivalent extreme backgrounds. So just because someone has been in BASE longer does not mean their wiser then the rest of us in regards to evaluating risk!

Which line would that be? Who drew it?

The only lines I walk are the ones I set. Sometimes it's frightening having so much freedom in one's life, but it is also very liberating.

Regarding BASE, if you live by the sword, be prepared to die by the sword.

I have seen so many people come into this sport, and once they realized that death is a real possibility, they get out of the sport. It's a serious wake up call for many people once they realize this game we play is a dangerous one and that a fate worse than death can and does occur. My mentor Steve Morrell, BASE 174, once told me that "BASE is a finite sport. If you do it long enough, you will die doing it." I still believe this opinion. He didn't live long enough to have his statement overturned "No one will live to 1000 BASE jumps." I think Space has said something very significant and I wish more people would realize it.

Just like 460 said... I walk my own line... But I don't come on dropzone.com wondering why I things happen when I knew I was pushing it. Every time I have been hurt in BASE, it was my fault and there was no mystery on how/why it happened. It's not my gear that makes mistake, it's me who is strapped in for the ride that screws up...

 




so......do you jump slider up at Bridge Day?? And do the majority of people jump slider up ? I think it is the other way around, but this event is unique and different from everyday base so this may be an exception.....
,

I've split this off the "Twin Falls Fatality" thread, to keep that one on topic, and to give this topic it's own thread.

Your post does not make any sense… What is your point???


The Bridge Day/ WV bridge is a 876ft bridge, not 485 like Perrine… The height of the WV bridge is high enough to take the appropriate delay…


I’m assuming your speaking of the Perrine bridge… If so, I beg to differ… The ratio, slider to slider off, is damn near close to 1:1…


“Exception…” Are there some special anti gravity things in place for this special event that the rest of us are not using??? Because I’m pretty damn sure I can still die at these “unique and different” events…

Again, what is your point???

 

My thought is that I have always been concerned about people jumping sliders at Perrine. The reason I say so is because if it were a cliff we wouldn’t dare do it.
__________________________________________________
interesting post, thanks for taking the time to write.
I'm curious if you would post YOUR reasons for believing that "we" would not dare to jump a cliff @ 486'.
i'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get a feel for your, and other peoples, perceptions / beliefs.
thanks

be safe
kleggo

I don't think he was referring to not jumping a 486' cliff and instead was referring to NOT jumping slider up on a 486' cliff since slider up openings are at a higher risk of coming out off heading than a slider down/off jump.

Thanks CanuckInUSA! You're exactly right... I do mean not jumping at altitudes/heights that don't allow the appropriate delay for sliders, regardless of the object (cliff or bridge)...

..."I do mean not jumping at altitudes/heights that don't allow the appropriate delay for sliders, regardless of the object (cliff or bridge)... "
.
I don't get it ? Why do you think the Twin Falls bridge is unsafe for doing Slider-Up BASE jumps ? I disagree. I say it's that it is a PERFECT low-end attitude object to do as many slider-up jumps as you feel like. It's also very good on the spinal abuse from long term no-Slider delays .
How many slider-up jumps have you done off the Twin Falls bridge to come to this conclusion that you feel it's un-safe ? Do you Feel that you are under to much pressure under Canopy to pop your Toggles, make an appropriate Heading assessment and Land at that height of exit ?
I feel that with the (appropriate delay) slider-up off that bridge and even with a off-Heading or a line-twist or both. It is easy to still make a good safe landing on dry land.
Or do you Feel like this only applies to smoking-it down low to the water on slider-up jumps on 4-sec.+ delays ?
.

Yes.

bsbd!

Yuri.

Bless you!

Stay disco buddy!

PerFlare

 

Well Ray, I don’t get why you can’t read. I stated my reasoning in the prior posts…

For you benefit so that you don’t have to read… My point is that you cannot take an appropriate delay with a slider at Perrine, to prevent common slider malfunctions (e.g. line twists). I don’t care how fast some is on the toggles, that’s not my point... It’s the sucking it down on an object without the proper delay to give you a safe slider opening. Or just simply not taking the proper delay period for a slider jump…


That's my exact point... None! I will never do it either... Same as burning in... I don't have to actually do it to know that it will kill you...


What is an appropriate delay for a slider Ray? And what is the delay until impact at Perrine?

Just curious how your’s differs from what is commonly known as an appropriate delay for a slider, 4 sec... I feel that with the (appropriate delay) slider-up off that bridge and even with a off-Heading or a line-twist or both. It is easy to still make a good safe landing on dry land.

Awesome! Have fun dying...

Actually, please continue to do so… It will make a great post when everyone is examining how you died because of some mundane detail, even though you really died because drinking impaired your judgment.

 

Your argument seems logical; there's no reason to pack slider up at the Perrine other than to just do it for the hell of it. The only reason I'll ever jump slider up there is simply for the practice of doing so. And no I won't take a very long delay when I do decide to do it.

JP

I've done plenty of slider up here, and I agree with SBCMac.

In my opinion, there are 3 main reasons to go slider up off this bridge:

1) You are training/practicing slider up jumps (especially packing, but also feeling the deployment) for other objects.
2) You are staging a multi-way.
3) You are old and soft, and can't take a slider down opening.


I admit I've been guilty of number 3 before, but it's going to be a pretty poor excuse for getting hurt or killed. Numbers 1 and 2 are actually safety oriented reasons, so I'm willing to entertain them as "good" reasons.

Slider up jumps from this altitude greatly increase your risk, because you are deploying a slider up canopy with what is really insufficient airspeed to drive the slider for a consistent opening.

Also, if you take a slider up rig here, you had best be prepared to get wet. Insisting on a dry landing is going to be a good way to get hurt sooner, rather than later.

Bottom line: If you want to go slider up here consistently, be willing to accept that you dry faster than you heal, and that occasionally you'll need to prove that (both ways).

edit to add: Slider up can also suck here if you've got strong wind going the wrong way. Don't forget that you need to allow time to deal after the opening (which I think is part of SBCMac's main point), which includes time to turn around (as well as to fix anything that's wrong).

That’s not the my argument here... I’m talking about how we are all puzzled when someone gets hurt at Perrine, when people are not jumping Perrine with the same approach as other objects in BASE. I’m simply drawing the correlation between the approach to jumping Perrine and injuries, rather than simply analyzing on simple technical aspect of how someone died or was injured at Perrine.

Furthermore… I really don’t care what you guys do at Perrine; you can fuck a goat on the way down for all I care. Just don’t come on dropzone.com telling everybody that you don’t understand why your pc delayed when you got your goat cheese all over your hands and it affected your pitch… By doing so, you really do a disservice to people trying to learn from you when they read dropzone.com.

I don't believe you. I suspect that at home, there are far more other substances, and less alcohol.

Tom does slider up pack jobs with static lines off that bridge...not a pretty opening.

Slider up jumps from this altitude greatly increase your risk, because you are deploying a slider up canopy with what is really insufficient airspeed to drive the slider for a consistent opening.


----------------------------------------------------------

Are you referring to the idea that it either increases the chances of linetwists and/or low altitude off heading openings that could jeopardize safe landing options?

Basically, it makes the opening less consistent. That can result in any number of problems, starting with off headings and working your way up from there.

In TF, a normal slider up delay with the wrong off heading pretty much guarantees a wet landing, at a minimum.

..."all puzzled when someone gets hurt at Perrine, when people are not jumping Perrine with the same approach as other objects in BASE."
.
Well now I see why your all Puzzled. The Twin Falls bridge is NOT like any other BASE sub-500 ft. object. So THAT's why it not approched like other BASE sub-500 ft. objects in the world with slider-up deployments.
_________

"That's my exact point... None! I will never do it either... Same as burning in... I don't have to actually do it to know that it will kill you... "
.
Well you seem very Narrow-Minded & you state that, ( have Never Done ) so HOW do (You Know ?) maybe you are missing something very unique in the world of sub-500 ft. slider-up jumps. That is a fun and possitive experience in your Growth & skill of BASE that can be safely aquired for your experience ?
__________

"Just curious how your’s differs from what is commonly known as an appropriate delay for a slider, 4 sec... I feel that with the (appropriate delay) slider-up off that bridge and even with a off-Heading or a line-twist or both. It is easy to still make a good safe landing on dry land. "
.
Well aperently (MINE) does not differ from any others that do it safely. It is common knowledge that can be tought to anyone. You Just Don't Know IT and have never been tought
The appropriat delay is the delay that is chosen to accomidate your slider-up jump-plan.
___________

" Furthermore… I really don’t care what you guys do at Perrine; you can fuck a goat on the way down for all I care. Just don’t come on dropzone.com telling everybody that you don’t understand why your pc delayed when you got your goat cheese all over your hands and it affected your pitch… By doing so, you really do a disservice to people trying to learn from you when they read dropzone.com. "
.
There is nothing Wrong with using what is appropriate for one's-self & choosing restraint for safety for yourself. This is good that you know your limits & as you plainly put it. "The Line You Walk"
I think. - It Is You - who are doing the disservice to a perspective Learning Crowd of BASE jumpers. Who is making safety judgment calls about a subject of sub-500 ft. slider-up BASE jumps You CLEARLY know nothing about & have never experienced.
Also if you are learning to BASE jump off a internet web-site. Then there is Very Little hope for your safety anyway.
How far out of touch of reality are you ? You think sub-500 ft. slider-up BASE can safely be Learned from Reading a Web-site ? Would You attemt to teach sub-500 Ft. slider-up mechanics off a BASE chat line ? who the fuck are you bullshiting. I'm the biggest fucking bullshitter on this planet so don't even try to slip that garbage on me.
Its apparent that you have Goat Cheese for a Brain. So Stick with "walking your OWN LINE" and not someone elses.
.

 


You can't read and your logic is wacked...

Just like most of your posts, your reply carries no logic and is complete nonsense.

Like I said before, and it sounds like I need to break the crayons for you, I will not apply techniques where they should not be applied, regardless that it's Perrine.



You never answered my question Ray... What is the proper, mechanically speaking, delay for a slider parachute jump?

If your answer is, what you stated below:


Then I simply have no comment because that is the scariest answer I have ever heard on dropzone.com! Who gives a shit about what your “slider-up jump-plan” is if you are jumping from a height that does not allow for a proper delay. Again, as commonly known in BASE, 4sec is the minimum delay recommended for a slider jump, for the pure mechanical reasons behind how a parachute opens with a slider on it…


Can someone please run this through the idiot translator? Because I can't read babble...

Like I said, I really don't care what you do at Perrine. You can be Ray for all I care! But again... (Imagine me speaking slowly for you Ray. Since you can't read…) My argument is.... When we discuss/analyze injuries and fatalities at Perrine, in dropzone.com, I don't believe we take everything into consideration, including mental preparation going into the jump. I used people using a slider for comfort, not training, at Perrine as an example that demonstrates the complacency that is common at Perrine. Therefore, in conclusion, drawing the correlation between injuries and complacency at Perrine…

All,

I've removed a bunch of fairly useless noise from this thread. I think there is some useful discussion here. Can we keep this thread productive, please? There are plenty of other threads about crayons and rock throwing that you can use to bicker needlessly.



RayLosli, SBCmac,

Please go easy on the personal attacks. I know you're both capable of disagreeing, and even arguing, without slinging pointless insults.


Thanks!



Oh, and this bit, from Ray Losli, was actually reasonable discussion, so here it is again:

Thanks for the Censorship. What's the matter ? you could not just Split-it to another Thread ?
.

Tom, I totally respect what your saying. I have no more to say to Ray. I'm out of crayons ...

Dude can't you Pucker-Up and kiss the Moderators Ass just a little harder ?
.

Depends on which home...

Last weekend we got really drunk and opened a very high security smokestack. I would have never ever approached that one sober.

A guard came out and pointed a gun at us. We just pushed him out of the way with a car. Again, a sober person would get busted right there.

To be honest, we did crash the car a minute later... but the turn was really tight!

But getting back to our subject: i feel that at Perrine, sliders just don't matter. I have jumped there with and without a slider, and had absolutely no idea which way rigs were packed. It made no difference at all. In fact i got so drunk by the afternoon that i had to switch to rounds. By the way thank you everybody for all those loaners... i've never jumped so many different rigs in one day!

bsbd!

Yuri.

 
I removed my original reply... I've decided not to respond to somone who just babbles...

And I bet you didn't make one pack job the whole day!

I was using demo rigs precisely because i was too drunk to pack

bsbd!

Yuri.

 

But getting back to our subject: i feel that at Perrine, sliders just don't matter. I have jumped there with and without a slider, and had absolutely no idea which way rigs were packed. It made no difference at all. In fact i got so drunk by the afternoon that i had to switch to rounds. By the way thank you everybody for all those loaners... i've never jumped so many different rigs in one day!

bsbd!

Yuri.__________________________________________________
whoa
dude
were you drinking when you typed this?

be safe
kleggo

Yes.

How did you know?

bsbd!

Yuri.