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So you are saying there was some Vid. review of past jumps. No pattern of PC technique of the Throw ?
I Really Hate the off-the-wall one-time shit that kills. There is no pattern or structure. Just makes it hard to digest accidental deaths plus It really throws a curve into everything you think is relevant to finding the truth.
Really defines the making of one simple mistake. It's not that the (mistake) making the PC Pitch was not an overlooked detail. It was obviously in the jump plan as the Vid. shows.
For me it's just hard to accept the severe consequences of the freak one-time Glitch that seems to come out of nowhere and kills. You think there has to be a Bigger Picture on WHY ? but in reality there is simply None. I sit back and think that I made one hell of a good-run of it and made a few stupid mistakes while doing it. wonder if the simple little one-time killer is on my next jump ? I have seen so many people die over the years. Wonder when I should give it up and get out. While the gettins good.
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edit for thread title ~TA

When to give you up?

That is a tough one. It is very personal too.

Here are a list of possible clues as to when you might consider alternative passions in your life:

- you feel no fear / nervousness / respect / passion / etc on for any of your jumps.
- your standards and attention to deal are diminshing.
- you are losing touch with technology and modern techniques.
- you happily accept that you could die participating but are not proactive about reducing the likelihood that it happens. i.e you let "shit happen" instead of making shit happen.
- you are in the death spiral of increasing complexity for stagnating or reducing reward.
- you become more scared than you have ever been and the fear is consuming you to the point where your control over the situation is no longer evident.
- your currency level (frequency & quality of jumps) is diminshing.
- you start to make more errors (have more incidents and accidents).
- you got into the sport for the "wrong reasons' in the first place and you are not getting what you want out of it.
- you have been personally involved in too many accidetns / deaths in the sport and it is having an adverse affect on your psyche.
- you are getting older and logic tells you that you should reduce complexity but it does not give you the satisfaction that you desire.
- etc.

It is a personal choice.

If you have to ask yourself this quetion now it's the time to get out.

I know the moment I second guess myself about BASE it will be the time I pick up golfing or nascar watching...or both...and maybe I'll start drinking that light stuff too.

Who said anything about thinking?

I let people with 200 jumps and the knowledge of the BASE Truth do all the thinking.

I just jump as you already know...

I think we're not done with learning lessons from this accident yet. We can't attribute the whole jump to the Freak One-Time Glitch.

She was very quick in realizing the Glitch and started fighting it almost instantly. But the fight was unsuccessful. From 3.25s to ~5.5s, for the whole 2+ seconds in the 70 to 90mph wind, the PC failed to do its job. Why?

An in-depth analysis of the video from 3s to impact will answer this question. But even before that, we can see that the technique of turning on your side to clear the burble gives the Freak One-Time Glitch another chance to kill us. It places your arm right in the way of the PC, creating a chance of entanglement. If you overrotated on your back, the canopy extraction can be delayed, too, due to distribution of the pull force. And if you overrotated even further, the canopy-bridle entanglement can happen.

Maybe we can rethink this technique borrowed from skydiving and develop the one that doesn't give FOTG another chance and works faster? How about bending forward while simultaneously bringing legs forward as if you're trying to touch your knees with your head. This will clear the burble and keeps the path for PC clean. You can also reach BOC with your wrist to dislodge the PC but your arm will not be in its way.

Thoughts?

Yuri

I think we are. I saw the video. It's committed to memory. You will never see it to understand how dynamic it was in those 2 seconds from pilot chute release to the roll. The PC was not visible from the top after the roll. Use your brain... It was under her. Anything that was attached to the pilot chute was any where else.

What happened after is inconsequential and in my mind is obvious. It's rather obvious because "I saw the video. It's committed to memory."... You did not. The roll was not to allow the pilot chute to catch air. It appeared unintentional.

The report is factual without opinion or emotion. The conclusion is accurate.

Do you see in the video why the PC stayed on her back during the barrel roll?

Think about what you are asking. There is really only one thing that will move the pilot chute and that is airflow. It can move the pilot chute away from you or towards you. if its sitting on your back in exactly the right position when you roll it could actually get trapped against you by the ariflow.
There is no perfect explanation that will will answer all your questions and give you a warm and fuzzy the safety of about BASE jumping.

Like a lot of things that have come out of your mouth recently, it's just a cliched pile of pap designed and posted to make you sound hardcore.

I mean, telling people like Ray (and the hundreds of other super experienced jumpers who often think about whether they should call it a day before it's too late) that to even consider quitting means they should, well.....it's time we took that big inflatable toy ego off you and made you sit on the naughty step.

Stop watching those Steven Seagal movies dude. In the real world things are never THAT black and white.

Guys, do me a favor and don't trash this thread. If more details can be made available, they will be. As of now, what's available has been posted. The root cause has been determined.

Ray is to the point and I agree.
pattersd, good post. Thanks

>>Tim's assesment is 100% consistent with what I saw. Like Ray said, from 486ft if you don't have shit getting ripped off your back by 4 seconds it's lights out. I've never had a PC malfunction, but I've heard from those who have it's not you something you realize right away. You pitch, you wait, and nothing happens. From 486ft, after a 2 second delay, by the time you react to what you think is happening it's probably too late. I've jumped an antenna with her where she went stowed and she totally nailed it, opened on-heading. I can't explain it.

not to degrade the thread any further, but that is simply not true

I've seen 3 people go over 4 seconds before pitching their pilot chutes and they all lived.

One even had a slider.

They all landed in the water and the only injuries were due to hard slider off openings and some trees in the water.

I have two of these jumps on video and that is why I am confident they went over 4 seconds.

Why is everyone so surprised . . .

Pilot chute hesitations have been around in BASE and also in that other sport for a long long time. And what simply turns a little "problem" into a life and death malfunction is merely time.

And sometimes it doesn’t have anything to do with plot chute size as I've had tandem drogues wind up sitting on my back after a decent toss.

Years ago I heard a strange theory about static electricity. Like when your knickers and socks come out of the dryer all stuck together. Say you are standing on a tower in a stiff wind. The air moving around your body creates static electricity and the same thing would happen in freefall. Except standing on a tower probably dissipates the charge while being in freefall just lets it build up until you land. Are some of these pilot chute hesitations caused by something as simple as static cling?

Crazy? Maybe, but who the hell knows. For a while, years ago, I was anal about touching my rig to some part of the structure to dissipate any charge that had built up. Will we, someday, see jumpers prior to launch wiping down their pilot chutes with a sheet of Bounce.

NickD
BASE 194

So I guess it's safe to say if you're not going to get the perfect toss every time its better to throw too hard than not hard enough? The consequences are minor compared to the consequences of a weak toss.

Guilty as charged, but his point is still valid.
I don't like talking about the bad things that I've done because I've gotten away with them with virtually no injuries. I was on the side-lines for Go-fast and Bridge Day last year because I hit a cliff and I gave myself a penalty PCA for my 400th because of the above described incident.
I try to explain the lessons I learned more than just tell the war story. If almost killing yourself is the only way you have to act cool, you need to look in the mirror.

Now, on the other side of that coin - I've been dead! I am a recovering alcoholic who spent 4 years in a cubical, dead! I wasn't afraid of dying (I would have welcomed it in fact) I was afraid of living. I will never live life in that kind of fear again.

I can't explain what BASE is to me. But I can say, I have often thought about quitting. I have some experience with addiction. Every time my PC hesitates, or a friend gets hurt, or the wind blows; I think that life is too precious to waste by going in.

I live my life to the fullest and am very aware that, "the candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long."

I backed off a jump this morning with a feeling that I haven't had in a very long time. I wasn't feeling it, and I may have forced it, but again I got lucky. As I stood PC in hand ready to make myself jump - the wind came up so strong that there was no question I couldn't jump. I waited until the elements made a decision for me and that is all bad.

Nitro says
I say you should ask yourself this question every day! You will never have an epic journey through your soul without asking yourself the hard questions. Don't be afraid to live life, but don't be stupid and let the lights go out too soon.

Tomorrow I head to a cliff that might be my tombstone, but at least I'm sober today.

Rite now I'm going to get 15 cent wings, because I'm a cheap bastard - this living life to the fullest crap gets pretty expensive.

See ya
Be Safe

-tenacious B

That sig-line does not say throw hard.

It says throw like your life depends on it.

If you have reason to believe that you are more likely to survive with a less vigorous throw and that a gentle placement is your best chance, then that would be throwing like your life depends on it.


For the objects and conditions that I jump, I prefer an off-heading to pilot chute hesitation just about every time, so that makes my decision kind of easy.

>> Something worth looking at

Great post Bill,

Thanks for sharing, really.


When the wind blows it's time for a kite under

Ian, as usual enlightening post, your words will be remembered when I remove my nail polish watching a Steven Seagal movie.

TVBP,

According to your list I should be quitting BASE (would make Ian and others very happy but Maggot very upset):


I feel no fear towards BASE, I don't pursuit what I fear. I fear jumping off an object with no rig so I don't do it. I fear playing the Russian Roulette with any number of bullets so I don't play. I fear not living so I try to live as hard as I can. BASE does not scare me but that does not mean lack of respect.


I do increase the complexity on each jump: being a new aerial, a lower pull, a new exit, a higher pull so I can set up for a juicy hook 'n' swoop, or just picking up a spot on the ground the size of a bird drop and try to land on it with a decent swoop. Call it a dead spiral if you will, I call it a learning experience. Yes at times the aerial goes to shit and you over-rotate, your low pull is too low and you end up crash-landing if lucky, a swoop gone wrong, a fucked-up exit that nearly kills a buddy of yours and the list continues.

What everyone has to realize including Ian is that we are in the game for different reasons. Bill, few others, and I were kiting our tarps in very high winds having a good time while other jumpers (some even more experienced than us) decided the conditions were too fucked up for a "safe" jump. Again, we are all in for different reasons no need to be judgmental on what others do. If flat and stable 2-sec delay off a 500' S is your cup of tea then be it but even on the "safest" jump when the shit hits the fan Dr. Death is just around the corner smiling at you, don't fool yourself.

So when is a good time to call it quit? As I stated for me it will be the time when I ask myself this very question.

Can I have your rig?

Maggot is the first one on the list even before my wife!

Is that an avatar of Flash Gordon's nemesis?

im also the first to get your wife by the way we are all goinna die so why not do it BASE jumping instead of free baseing. my father always said why snort what u can smoke

oops, didnt mean to hijack the thread with my smartass remark...<br><Br>back on topic, ZegeunerLeben, thanks for that link to a great thread :) found a new sigline...

Wow, I can't believe Me getting all sensitive and showing my Vagina would get Split to a new Thread. So temporarily tolerate me and let me Drop my Skirt one more time to continue on this line of thinking.
I have already been playing a safer game-plan. Being more picky on the safety & quality and not the quantity for some time. No interest anymore in jumping the sketchy/dodgy. Basically for Me the quitting is a matter of what is ( put-in ) to the amount ( that is received ).
I have Not Quit Yet and "It is a Personal thing" as you state but it moves past the obvious draining of ones spirit and love of pure pursuit of BASE freefall. When you get slamed in the face by the constant smell of death. It even takes a personal toll knowing that your love-of-pursuit is a drain of Spirit for my Mate. She has never ever made any wedge to interfere in my passionate pursuits of life for the 13 years I have known her. That is another example of what is ( put-in ) to the amount ( that is received ). When do you start Giving back more and slow down on the Taking ?
BASE is a Pure Pursuit of Passion when done right. It's simply Pure Taking. You jump and take all that you can get for all that it is worth. The more you jump the easier it gets but it is Still All-or-Nothing, Every Jump. You just BASE jump so much you chose to forget.
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Ray,

BASE needs you. Seriously.

Ray

I like the way you think. You bring and say things that make people think and that is rare these days. To many people are "sheep" and are followers. You are one of those rare Sheep Herders. So.. um get to tending to you flock... I think someone needs a beating

Ray Losli is Hero of the Human Spirit. Brave, Kind and Wise, I have never met a better jumper or BASE instructor.

Dwain Weston and Psyilly Nic are sexy gods. Ray is better because he is still here.

Ray hand makes gorgeous Base rigs called SoftCock. He self-taught, researched and worked passionately until he created these beautiful containers.

The S&TA Jim said ‘your going in’ as did most, when they heard the words ‘homemade gear’

Yet like Dr. Salk, who first injected himself with his polio vaccine, Ray jumped his rigs, and the won the praise and affection of the Australian himself.

Thucydides, remarks “Restraint impresses men most”

True addiction IS moderation

If you want to drink everyday, a bottle of wine a day will give you more total buzzed hours than a lifestyle of shots of jack and hangovers

Socrates speaks truth in his immortal words “the unexamined life is not worth living”

Ray is Noble to ask these questions. He is a teacher and a Philosopher.

• When I finish this Odyssey, I’m coming home to Portland and I look forward studying with you.

Semper Fi,

Joe
SoftCock MossTosser School of Base 2001

I asked you why you thought that.

You came back with a smart arsed remark.

I pointed out that it's a bit rich (macho, cliched, etc), you telling experienced jumpers what they should do and when they should quit, and that life isn't so black and white.

You come back by pointing out to me that we're all in it for different reasons.

Nick.(deep breath) I KNOW. That's what i'm telling you! You're the one with all the answers for everyone, not me.

Dude, Lay off the crack pipe magot gave you, or the blow backs down his magnum barrel, and when that mist clears and you read the thread again, you might see that.

You are 100% right. People get into BASE for different reasons and after considering many options and risks. If follows that they get out of BASE for different reasons and after considering many options and risks.

Questioning your motives, re-evaluating what is important in life, re-prioritising the various aspects of your life, re-assessing longevity and mortality, that doesn't mean it's time to quit jumping like you seemed to think.

This isn't a feud with you Nick. I genuinely don't agree with the train of thought (DOUBTS = TIME TO QUIT) and i think it promotes a mindset where people become afraid to talk about their doubts or their fears because it might be perceived as a weakness.

I'm not mud slinging for the sake of it. I simply do not agree, but hey, that's personal too.

Chris,
Ming the Merciless Emperor of Mongo.

Maggot,
My thought exactly. However we all know you are not that well equipped so when I go in Martina might need few Maggots.

Ray,
Should I set up a hot-line for BASE counseling and mid-life BASE crises? 1-800-call-ray, option 2, option 1 is phone sex for Maggot.

Ian,
I was not telling anyone what to do I just was expressing when I will quit. You know me so little, everyone knows I am into psychedelic drugs, not stimulants. For someone who knows the gray and fuzziness in life you sure come across as a positivist. Also, IMO you are in the wrong business, really. You could be very, very successful writing lines for Chinese fortune cookies.

And The List continues.

EXACTLY.

See you can be funny when you try...i'll give you that one. And i hear there might be a job going as scriptwriter for Chuck Norris' new movie "A FORCE OF ONE II" if you want me to put a word in for you.

ONE MAN.........ONE CANOPY.........ONE BRIDGE.........

ian

Damn Joe, I have never heard so many kind words about me. I most defiantly WANT YOU to do my Epitaph at my Funeral. After I fucking Smoke-it-In to the Dirt !
Last time I ever said so many nice thing about someone. I was Chatting some Chic up at the Pub to get in her Pants while trying to slip a couple Ruffies in her Beer.
Flattery will get you everywhere though and Thanks. I am just uncomfortable with just one statement. "Dwain Weston and Psyilly Nic are sexy gods. Ray is better because he is still here."
I would like to say, I will never be better than Dwain. I was Only a better jumper than Nick. Being alive is not a status promotion over the dead it just a given Perk.
.

Ray you bloody great big tosser. I don't think you're that great and you still owe me 50 Ringint

Be sure to include Ray's trademark overhaul to conventional grammar and spelling. ;P