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All,

With respectful reference to the recent incident involving Shannon, recent comments from Jeb and numerous examples to be found elsewhere on this forum I sincerely request your advice to the following questions:

1 - When there is an option, do you typically go stowed or hand held on a 2 second delay?

2 - If the PC and bridle are folded correctly ie in accordance with the manufaturers recomendations, is there really a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay?

3 - If there really is a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay why do it? Why not go hand held?

I have in the interim opted to go hand held for such jumps

Thanking you in advance

John

If you do a search for "stowed" you will find a lot of information.
But the last big discussion was in this thread
http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
after a cliffstrike of someone going stowed with a 48" pc on a 2s jump.

Mikki_ZH,

Thank you for your reply.

I have searched, downloaded and studied a lot of the threads and have seen numerous videos of 2 second stowed delays. I have done a few myself.

What do you personally do - hand held or stowed?

Regards

John

I work on the theory that unless the exit calls for it (need both hands on the object), there is no advantage in going stowed. Caveats: 1) I am a newbie 2) I've never gone stowed.

I go handheld (for delays up to 2s) exept for S's, there I also go stowed from 0 to 2s.

> What do you personally do - hand held or stowed?
Going stowed for short delays is COMPULSORY only in case the exit point is hard to reach (=you need both hands to climb/to move around) and/or a loose bridle can easily get caught somewhere in the structure (I am thinking about metallic lattice structures and other types of objects that have got metallic pieces protruding everywhere near exit point).
Remember that when going handheld you must have your S-folded PC in your hand BEFORE getting to exit point. "BEFORE" means several meters/feet within exit point, you must "do it" into your hand where you are still safe and there is NO danger of falling off accidentally.
So, indeed, there are cases of low jumps where/when going stowed is not an option (=it would be really difficult/dangerous to move around with one and half hand and all that loose bridle).
Apart from those few cases of low jumps where going stowed is mandatory, going handheld has got a lot of advantages.
Handheld: it is easy to launch/release the PC in clean air and it is indeed very difficult to launch a handheld PC very bad, so bad that it gets hesitations.
Stowed: you must pack your big PC (48"/46") very carefully (and be careful where you stow the (excess) bridle, I would warmly suggest the "supermushroom techique" by Johnny Utah when packing a big PC for low BASE jumps), you must throw your stowed PC in clean air far away from your body, it is not that difficult but it can be not too difficult to have a crappy throw, in which case that (weak/poor) throw can make your day rapidly deteriorating.
Just my 0.02€

Base 689,

Thank you for your reply.

When there is an option on a 2second delay what do you personally do - hand held or stowed?

Regards

John

 

Treejumps,

Thanks for your reply.

If I read you correctly you are opting to go stowed on 2 second delays (climb out permitting) when you could go hand held.

Do you think that you are adding an avoidable risk by doing this or do you think that the chance of the PC falling onto your back is negligible?

Please excuse my somewhat pointed questions as I am interested to know what people actually do rather than what they think or know is preferable

Regards

John

 
2sec Friendly object and current - stowed.

2sec Unfriendly object - HH.

Unclecharlie95,

Thanks for your reply.

As I'm not sure if you have answered me or not kindly advise if you personally go stowed or hand held on 2 second delays irrespective of how friendly the object is.

Regards

John

2 sec. delay i would choose 42" PC stowed, i wouldnt fold and stowe 46 or 48" PC

 

I was on a tower last night at 320ft stowed. While sinching down legs and chest I got thinking about this subject and what has been discussed over the last few weeks since being in twin. I thought do I have more to gain by going stowed or hand held. Pretty easy exit point either way. Adding it all up I went HH. Which is the first time I ever have gone HH from this tower at this heigth. Not sure any of this helps but everything added up to HH. Then again maybe I am just a candy ass and skeert!!!!

Hi John

For 2 second delays off pretty much everything i go hand held. I stow for above 2 or occasionally i will go stowed below 2 if the object or conditions favour it.

My reasons are simple.

I feel more comfortable doing this.

ian

 1 - Either one <object and wind dependant>
2 - No
3 - There is not a serious risk of it falling on your back.

Throw the pilot chute into the air stream. <== (this sounds obvious but it will be clarified soon)

If there is a right left cross wind, I go hand held. If there is a stiff tail wind and I'm exiting flat, I go hand held to avoid the possibility of throwing the pilot chute under my arm.

If you go hand held or stowed, be sure you can throw the pilot chute away from you no matter what orientation your body takes after exit.

Open, aways allows for more options.

Hi John,

I have a few objects in that delay range where going hand held is not an option and I haven't had any problems going stowed but normally I will choose to go hand held if possible. To me, it feels like a simpler system. Like there's one less link in the chain.

Gus

> ...with the caveat that I don't really jump anything under 400'. I don't think I am adding avoidable risk.
In fact. As I supposed. There is something very personal in BASE jumps. One the very personal things is the "lowest" freefall any BASE jumper is going to do (and stowed/handheld is a detail of that).
Lowest jump I and my mates have ever done is freefall from 65 m - 213 ft (below that, we go SL). Of course, handheld and S-folds only on mesh (ZP loose open).
Few weeks ago I did my second (ever) stowed jump off a 95 m - 312 ft bridge.
Few mates of mine usually go stowed not below that 95 m - 312 ft mark. But when it's windy, they go handheld. BTW, my mates stow ANY size of PC (48", 46" and smaller): with a good supermushroom technique you can stow ANY size of PC.
Last week I was going to go stowed off that 95 m - 312 ft bridge but because of high winds I simply removed my supermushroom packed PC off my BOC and I jumped it keeping that "stuff" handheld. When it's windy and depending also on which direction the wind is coming from, the possibility that PC goes in front of you is NOT zero, so, why take additional risk? If properly done (and it's not that difficult), handheld PC deployments have never failed.
IMHO, going stowed in a "low" jump could look cool and elegant, but when it's "low" and/or windy, a good throw starting from handheld cannot go (reasonably) go wrong. Going stowed, "could" go wrong. So, it's up to you.
Additionally, it could be done something I call "half stowed".
My "half stowed" is done as follows.
You go on exit point stowed with your best supermushroom PC packing: when you are actualy to jump, you simply jump with your right hand already on the "handle" (center of ZP cloth filled with mesh/s-folded bridle) and after the planned delay, you "simply" throw your PC off your side; going "half stowed" just be careful you can master you standard best exit with the strange body attitude keeping a hand "fixed" AT your BOC; beyond that (=stable exit in an unusual body "attitude"), there is NO possibility of missing your PC (still there exists a slight possibility for a weak throw, but that's another story).

It depends on many other factors.


I usually go stowed.




I don't think so. What wind conditions are you considering, though?




There are good reasons for each. For example, you might want to go stowed because you have to wiggle onto the exit point through the structure, and it's hard to do that while hand held.


Some thoughts on each option:


Stowed:

Con:

1) The chance for a hesitation is greater. This is much more noticeable with a larger PC and a shorter delay. At 2 seconds with a 42, I think there is a difference in hesitation rate, but a relatively small difference.

2) You must pull higher to achieve the same opening altitude, which typically exposes you to greater wind effects during the opening sequence.

3) A strong tailwind can blow the PC under your arm, potentially entangling your bridle with your hand/wrist/arm.

4) Strong (jumper's) right-to-left crosswinds can push the PC back into the jumper when it is thrown.

Pro:

1) It's far easier to get onto tricky exit points, because both hands are totally free.

2) If you are doing any rotations in freefall, you keep the bridle contained and out of the way.

3) It is possible to use your hands slightly more effectively in launch to create greater object separation.

4) Many jumpers are far more current stowed, so they are less likely to throw their body position off with the pitch.

5) All your friends will think you are cool.

Hand Held:

Con:

1) It's harder to maneuver onto the exit.

2) It takes some time to fold the PC and route the bridle. It might be hard to come by that time in some high pressure exit situations, where you must make a very short window.

3) It's possible for freefall wind to blow the bridle around and do weird things with it (like flipping it under your elbow).

Pro:

1) Lower hesitation rate (with the 42 at 2 seconds, not a huge deal--but as the delays get shorter and the PC's larger, it matters more).

2) You can pull lower regularly, which may keep you out of higher winds at greater altitude, and might also make your friends think you are cool.

3) You can more precisely time your opening, which could be important if you must clear an obstacle in freefall, but then need to open as quickly as possible once it has been avoided.

4) It's much more difficult to miss the PC, or fumble the pitch.

5) All your friends will think you are old school.

There are many more points both pro and con, but those are some that I thought up off the top of my head this morning. There is a time and place for each, I think, but I also think that most people (including myself) default to "stowed" and that's not necessarily the smartest thing to do.

The problem with telling someone to search is the attitudes and favored techniques change very fast in BASE jumping. Many jumpers, especially the younger ones, often rethink things after a fatality.

In the beginning the idea was you went stowed only if there was tracking involved. And that evolved out of the days when people actually tracked with pilot chutes in their hands. In the eighties we sometimes used "line" bridles instead of the tape kind as they weren't as draggy and wouldn't pull your pins while you tracked. (But they still did sometimes) And they also had a very high entanglement potential.

That, tracking with a pilot chute in hand, was the extreme side of hand held just like going stowed from a few hundred feet is the other extreme of that practice. Stay somewhere in the middle. Maybe we should flip the equation around and start thinking, “can I jump this hand held,” rather than, “can I jump this stowed?”

But one thing surely has to change. If you are the type that calls someone a weenie for going hand held – then stop that . . .

NickD
BASE 194

 
>>I go hand-held simply because I prefer to hold my life in my hands, rather than in a spandex pouch.

yo John...ive seen the cliff...and good conditions or not...good vibe or not i would go handheld there with your experience and the medical facilities and evacuation facilities in your country...if you start humming it past two on that wall...my oppinion would be stow...use an av.....but watch the winds...

when you gonna get me some costs for coming to see the cheeky one we talked about...

im going to Ibiza for a week in september as well now so i need to do some budgets

hope you are well mate

Myself i go stowed on pretty much everything above 240. Keep in mind you might want to get current on going stowed on a higher object practice throwing the pilot chute hard to full bridle extension and in an out and up oriantation. I personally like going stowed i find going hand held just leaves the bridle out there to snag stuff and it wigs me out

Many jumpers, especially the younger ones, often rethink things after a fatality.
----------------------------------------------------------

I'm one of these people.

----------------------------------------------------------
But one thing surely has to change. If you are the type that calls someone a weenie for going hand held – then stop that . . .

----------------------------------------------------------

Magot, pay attention here!!

----------------------------------------------------------

I have been thinking about this alot lately (since Shannon's death) and I'm definately having my reservations about going stowed from objects like the one in Potato land. I know for you old timers and more experienced jumpers 486' seems huge and therefore my comments may seem ridiculous. I did not go stowed the last time I was there; I will later this summer when I get up there. But I can tell you it will be very nerve racking for me the first time I do. I would be damn pissed if someone ever gave me shit for deciding not to go stowed off that object.

Good post Nick.

Cheers,

J.P.

three things to remember:
1) only do something if YOU are comfortable with it
2) err on the conservative side
3) NEVER jump with anyone who doesn't accept your opinions on the first two...

I'm with Nick on this one. I always assess the jump, and where possible I go hand held. That said I live in Washington, and the majority of our jumps are 250-400ft, with deployment timing relatively important on many (i.e., pass that ledge before you pitch or make damn sure you are open 100ft above that ramp/ledge to the right, or need to be open high in order to clear those trees, etc...).

I also do not do any aerials, and I like the security of knowing that when I chuck the security rag, it's clear of me. I also have found that I personally have better symmetry in my shoulders during deployment when I go hand held, and therefore possibly better heading performance all else being equal.

Where wind might be an issue in terms of possibly blowing the bridal under my elbow etc... I will opt to go stowed or I will opt to not jump.

Now all that said there have been a few situations where it was not possible to go hand held because of the climb out to exit point where I sure wish I would have been hand held, and I do get heckled every now and then for being the only one with my PC in hand, but oh well.

My ideas on this issue evolve and change as time goes on, but that is my current thinking.

Tom Dancs

Goddamit; the above is the crux of the ...potential... problem (and coming from you, Tom? )

I should have said this in my first post: I think the main reason people choose stowed on short delays is exactly because of what Tom said above; there are, of course, reasons for stowed (on short delays):

* Primarily: object and exit; you may need as many hands as you can muster
* Secondarily: you feel more comfortable that way

Otherwise? No logical reason. People, we are part of a few thousand out four billion who are prepared to do this. Why try to be the cutting edge when we are the cutting edge? It becomes the bleeding edge all too soon. As we have seen.

Small print: I know nothing.

Ivan

Hey Tom! I've seen your throw and goes! Haha, I'm just kidding. If somebody actually makes fun of you for doing a more conservative jump then that person's opinion is not worth worrying about.

I always enjoy jumping with you, Tom


Katiemonster.

Post: All,

1 - When there is an option, do you typically go stowed or hand held on a 2 second delay?

2 - If the PC and bridle are folded correctly ie in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations, is there really a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay?

3 - If there really is a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay why do it? Why not go hand held?

I have in the interim opted to go hand held for such jumps

Thanking you in advance

John


-
my answers to the questions asked :

1- There is always an option but I choose to go Hand-Held or Stowed depending on the Jump. for example, The technical sides of it. For simple reasons of my given choices for my (Secondary Outs) if Heading was bad or maybe a particular heading direction is not an option. Or it could be just because it is a New Object and I am just feeling it out.
asked..." why do it? Why not go hand held? " I choose to play the game . That seems most favorable for that object.

2- No

3- There is Not a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay but the options of going Hand-Held or Stowed or even Static or PCA are always there to consider and choose.
I can honestly say that I have not NEVER seen this happen before (the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay) though I have witnessed many PC Hesitations at Bridal-Stretch over the years.
(the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay) This is TRULY a RARE thing & not the Normalcy of PC malfunctions. The BASE PC IS the one thing that seems to be the most consistent in performance next to the Canopy always Inflating after extraction. The PC always pulls the Canopy off your back 99.998 % of the time. So Why not this time ?
-
John, you have so many responses and discussion to this Thread. To me this shows that the incident last weekend with the (unresolved cause of death) Why-? the Pilot-Chute seemed to Fail in it's duty to pull the Canopy from the container. In the 5+ seconds allotted for it to complete it's mission on the jump. Has really put the Fear-of God in so many to give pause to Think. Not so much I think as to the death of a jumper being the cause of Fear. I think it's a little more than just Gear-Fear also Because if death was the big fear than there would not be this big influx of BASE jumpers. I think the Big-Fear is NOT being able to place blame to the cause why a perfectly good Pilot-Chute Failed in the time allotted for it to work. So many suspect reasons but nothing concrete to put the finger on. The biggest injurer & killer for BASE still remains the ( 180 deg.off-heading & object strike ) but the Rare ( Complete PC Failure ) is still lurking to get you and it's scary. What is most scary is Why-? or What caused the PC (the most consistent performer on your Rig) to go and be held on a BASE jumpers back @ a 2-second pitch ? Would going Hand-Held with PC on every BASE jump done actually be the safest road to travel for every 2-second delay ?
.

All,

Thank you for your focussed and considered comments, they are much appreciated.

John

Just wanted to bring up a concern of mine that I didn't see discussed yet:

When I go handheld--which I admittadely do very rarely--I hold the pilotchute differently depending on the delay I plan on taking:

0-1.5 second delay: I choke off the bridle and mesh, leaving the ZeroP/F111 topskin on the top of my hand (NOT CHOKED).

1-2 second delay: I choke off the entire pilotchute exactly like it would be in the BOC (except the bridle routed ontop of my thumb ofcourse).

My reasoning for the difference in what material is choked is this: any extra fabric in the air is more drag, drag on one extremity is nonsymmetrical, this unsymmetrical drag will make me need to change my center of gravity to keep nice and stable.... and I don't want to have to worry about all of this if I don't have to. I feel that this extra drag is minimal, and probably accounted for unconciously by many of us, but its still there.

just my 2 cents. Also, while we're on the topic of handheld procedure could somebody chime in with all the reasons to route your bridle ontop of your thumb and NEVER out the bottom of your hand... there are a few jumpers up here that could use hearing these reasons again.

I agree with your reasoning, but fold the PC differently than what you are describing.

In my opinion, holding a mushroom in your hand yields very similar hesitation rates to holding the mushroom in your BOC. If your going to hold the PC in your hand, there are other ways to fold it that can yield noticeably lower rates of hesitation.

You can also, for very short delays (like 0-0 seconds), hold the PC at the very bottom (the bridle attachment), which, when done properly, can pretty much eliminate any chance of a hesitation.

There has been a fatality apparently resulting from holding the PC with too much flapping out the top, for too long a delay (see #19).

well you aint cool if you make a short delay stowed off a high object,but then again neither you are if you do it HH of that same object,how i know?

I did a 1-1,5 sec delay hh off a 950ft cliff last summer,but hey i got the jump even as the hike were a pain in the arse and i never EVER had such a looooong canopy ride from a BASE before(do i need to add that i ofcourse did jump slider off)

Ivan,you either started to hate me(like for real) or never call back,get your lazy arse to the phone

if you are referring to a strong tailwind, or cross-tailwind from the right (left if you are a left hand BOC freak), then going handheld with the bridle properly routed and the correct amount of slack is the best way to assure that you do not get the pc and then bridle under your arm

going stowed in those conditions will greatly increase the probability of getting the pc and then the bridle under your arm

If I have interpreted your statement incorrectly, please advise, if not, I would be interested in your reasoning behind this.

Thanks dude
Sam

Stowed. If I can do a 2 second delay then I have trouble imagining a scenario that would make me want to go handheld.




It depends on your PC throw more than anything else. With a good throw and properly sized PC I would say there is no risk of that on a 2 second delay.



That risk only exists with a bad PC throw or some rigging error.

I go stowed because I am confident I can get my PC out where it needs to be in time (and that I understand where that is).
I prefer stowed over handheld because it allows me an easier climb-out, a more natural feeling running exit, a more symmetrical launch, the option of doing an aerial and it is quicker to exit.
I will sometimes go handheld due to object height, but that only really applies to objects where I would not be willing and/or able to do a 2 second delay.
I will also go handheld in high tailwinds if I cannot do at least a 2 second delay.


I see it this way:

- when I jump, I am betting my life that my canopy will open and will open in time
- when I freefall, I am also betting my life that I will pitch my pilot chute in time and properly to allow my canopy to open in time
- when I go stowed I am also betting my life that I will grab my PC in time to pitch it in time to allow the canopy to open in time

doing a good pilot chute pitch stowed is more technically complicated and requires more co-ordination and precision than going handheld, so this ups the ante even more


it’s all about what you are willing to bet your life on

Pitching a stowed pilot chute properly is a skill that every basejumper should learn. The better and more consistent you are at it, the lower you can do it.

Just remember what you are betting on.

Cya
Sam

do you (or anyone else) consider going handheld using your left hand? it could offer a cleaner launch, depending on the wind...

I'm left handed, but I would still find dealing with the PC in my left hand to be awkward as hell.

 

I disagree. The pilot chute throw that is taught to just about every skydiver is not what a basejumper should be using.

Learning how to pitch properly should be part of every FJC (and it is of all the major ones that I know of).



So, to clarify, since the IBPB is not a sketchy exit point and you are unlikely to need to track: you go handheld as default from your hometown object?

Sam,

I meant if the wind is blowing the bridal around before I jump at exit point, and thus putting it under my arm to start.

Thanx for pointing out the in-clarity in my statement. My boss does that often too...

Tom Dancs

Hi John,


Usually I stick to the following rule:

slider-down: hand-held
slider-up: stowed

But also I mostly do slider-up jumps, and for me there is no benefit in going stowed on short delays. I yet have to do a slider-down jump where I do not have enough space at exit point to prepare the pilot-chute for hand-held.

Otherwise, the thread contains everything I could yet say.