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Asylum 42 inch AV Pilot chute/Mojo 240/ Vision Container

I know how she used to fold it.

Originally it was basically a supermushroom. If it has changed since then, it was the standard mushroom like the Asylum manual shows.

I have not seen any video of the jump so there is no speculation on my part as to what exactly happened.

Looked like a super-mushroom from what I recall.

At this point, its hard to point to gear... I believe she was jumping a Vision (edit). I've had a hard pull on a Warlock. I know people who have had hard pulls on almost every rig out there so who's to say.
I didn't witness the incident until after impact so I cannot put a handle on the series of events.

 

I know the "Dead Jaap" method you're referring to. No worries, thanks.

It seems to me VERY UNLIKELY that Jaap's "dead jaap" PC packing method had anything to do with his "hesitation". I know many seem to think thats a good explanation, I think its nonsensical. I do not see how its possible for that to be a concern.

Doesn't directly mean much but I've used the dead jaap pack for hundreds of jumps with hardly anything near a hesi, and still use it!

'just one of those things, maybe stiff zp, maybe a weak pitch, maybe the planets, but I strongly feel the planets are more likley to have been a contributing factor than that method of PC packing.

.02

WDC

Didn't the "Dead Japp" incident lead to the discovery of the faulty batches of material used in the maufacture of the PCs and to the recall issued by Apex?


Kris.

hope not mate as im in pain at the mo. did you do stupied shit again?

Did any inspect the gear,or has da police got it?

I know it wont be a nice thing to do but perhaps it could prevent another fatality.

The whole weak pitch/bad PC folding theory does not sound really plausible. Was the bridle entanglement involved? Anyone knows?

 

Yesterday I was watching some old videos of shannon jumping as well as some from this past weekend (which didn't include her last), It looked to me like she is relaxed at pitch time, She reaches back, grips the pc and gently but quickly throws the pilot chute out as she returns to the square stable body position. Her throw seems slightly forward and up.
Here is the link to an interview that her fiance did yesterday, there is some video from the past weekend.
http://harbinger.sims.berkeley.edu/~glum/shannon.mpg
~J

you too mate,heal faster than me

Thanks SO much for posting that. What a great tribute. Bob is amazing.

that video is amazing. long. sensitive (not sensational).
very beautiful.

Just watched "Lemmings Extremes" again, a collection of the Bridge Day's "The Best of the Worst" jumps. Watch 27:45 (or 12:15 on Johnny Utah's "Bridge Day Safety Video").

A guy makes a 2s delay, pitches the PC in a smooth and swift motion and brings his hands to shoulders waiting for the risers. What can be clearly seen is that the PC quickly moves from his right side into his burble and stays "glued" to his butt. There's no bridle to be seen. Apparently, most of the bridle stayed in the BOC. The PC is not inflated as there's no tension in the bridle. At 4s into the jump the guy realizes something is wrong. He looks back and reaches back with his hand, pulling the PC out of the burble. At 5s into the jump, you can see the container opening. At 6s, his canopy is half inflated.

At Perrine (5.8s to impact), he would have died. Only additional height of NRGB saved him.

His pitch was not weak. Yet, for unknown reason, the PC didn't move further to the side in a tight bundle before inflating, instead, it spread out instantly into a pancake which got sucked into the burble.

Thoughts? Any particular method of PC packing that can cause this? It seems, the bridle didn't stay trapped inside the mushroom, it got "dumped" in BOC on pull. Maybe, "Dead Jaap Pack" is not that bad afterall (if the ZP material is not thick/sticky), since it prevents the "bridle dump"?

There's not much time at Perrine to clear PC hesitations, and they do happen...

Yuri

Do you Know if Shannon gave the kidney my daughter got on tuesday.

----------------------Sorry, my daughter got a kidney donated,I thought it might be from Shannon. It fit a dream I had.Shannon sounds like a very speacial lady ,sorry , Tom

I watched her folding her PC a couple days before the accident. I just saw the beginning, but it looked like she was just using a standard mushroom.

I thought (and am most likely wrong) that from the deck the perrine had a 5.2s to impact. clarification anyone?

huh ? How can the bridle stay in the BOC if during a proper packing method (which people indicate was used ) the bridle is routed ( from the bottom pin/shrivel flap) - pin - bridle protector ( or just tucked in) - towards the bottom of the BOC - in the mesh of the folded PC.

ok this kind of answers it - if the bridle was barely folded/stuffed in the mesh, and nowhere near the cap/handle - one can hypothesize that a VERY WEAK pitch where one just barely grips the outer material of the PC and lazily places it away from their body can in fact leave the rest of the bridle in the BOC. Don't think I have ever seen anybody be lazy with a PC toss on a BASE jump.... But who knows, the Perrine regulars would be much better people ot comment on that.

I can easily imagine a weak PC toss where the bridle does not get extracted and the PC does. I have seen at least 5 recent videos of jumpers MISSING the PC completly on BASE jumps (with a sure handed second attempt) from this object.

I believe you. And I am agreeing with RayLosli - a BASE jump is still a BASE jump. A bridge affords you lots of leaway and room to fuckup - but remeber the 1st rule - DON'T BOUNCE - and make sure you prioratize accordingly. Personally I don't think it's acceptable to not have enough muscle memory for a proper PC reach and throw. Your textbook exit and aerials don't mean shit if you don't pull.

Without air resistance, t = sqrt(2*h/g) = sqrt(2*486/32) = 5.5s. With air, you are at 366ft at 5s and 504ft at 6s, so 5.8s for 486ft is just about right.

Hello,

I do not write here very often but this last fatality has got me thinking. I have been base jumping for a little while and seen quite a few jumps here and there. In all my jumps ( and more importantly all the jumps I have seen ) I have only witnessed two pilot chute hesitations in person. I have also seen two very spectacular hesitations on video both resulting in the jumpers being hurt and almost killed. One common thing I noticed between all of these 4 hesitations was a short delay stowed. I to this point have not seen or heard of a pilot chute hesitation hand held ( if anyone out there knows of one I would love to see the footage). I find this very interesting. My point being, when I learned to base jump I was taught that if you were going to do a 1 to 2 second delay you would go hand held because even though the likelihood was very small, there was a chance that the pilot chute could get caught in your burble and create a longer then anticipated opening sequence. If you were going to do 3 seconds or more then stowed was ok because it meant you would have the air speed to insure your pilot chute wouldn't get trapped in the burble created by your body falling through the air. I find it a bit odd that I was told this by my base teachers almost 9 years ago yet it seems like lost knowledge on these forums.

I of corse have violated the not going stowed under 3 seconds many times. Mostly out of fear and just pulling to early. Some times I was doing acrobatics from very low object and was unable to take the longer delay and had to go stowed because I didn't want to get tangled in my bridle. But I was always told by people much smarter then my self that you must know the rules before you brake them. They also told me that what I was doing was going to get me very hurt and most likely killed.

Why do a stowed jump flat and stable and only take 1 to 2 seconds? Why not just go hand held with a bigger pilot chute if that is the delay you take all the time? If you decide to do some super hard core acrobatics from something very low then at least know that pilot chute hesitations can happen and if they do then you could be very hurt or killed. Pilot chute hesitations are very rare but if you do nothing but 1 to 2 second delays stowed for every base jump you do at the potato bridge then you could be increasing the chances...

Jeb Corliss

It's hard to fathom sometimes, but it's an evolution. Bob Sinclair came to an early Bridge Day and jumped his regular rip corded spring loaded skydiving rig. He thought our chief problem was all the bridles and pilot chutes hanging out all over the place, and he said as much.

It's probably only a coincidence Bob mentioned it, but while a few always did Bridge Day stowed, and we all did the higher stuff stowed, it was right about that time (early 90s) that now we all started going stowed lower and lower. It seemed like the next step, letting go of the security rag, and yes - it was cooler too.

Four hundred eighty five-feet is BASE purgatory. No matter the object it's an awkward altitude suspended somewhere between heaven and hell. Sometimes it's a bit too high for slider down and sometimes it's a bit too low for slider up. Throw the stowed/not stowed thing into it and a glitch and you're out of time.

Nothing is a lock in gear and technique progression and we are always on our way to the next place. However, I think there should be a rule that you can take back a Nugget if it's yours. I'd yank one I wrote in some BASE magazine years ago that went, "If you can go, you can stow . . .

NickD
BASE 194

i didnt knew Shannon,neither did i knew what kind of delay she planned to do on that jump.however i were told that she had less than 100 BASE jumps,

she might planned a longer delay,but felt the fear from starting going head low got scared or somthing else and therefore pitched..

She might planned doing a 1-2 sec delay...

As you said sometimes fear just make you pull before planned.. some time you take that extra split second before you think its too late..

A good rule i practice myself,which i also were told as i started.

Jeb,

My only comment/question would be. . . . . . at such a low airspeed is there really all that much of a burble present? At one or tow seconds you've barely begun to pick up speed. I guess in my young and inexperienced "BASE" mind, it just seems logical that burble issues shouldn't be a problem on such short delays.

I would like to hear someones feedback on this.



Cheers,

J.P.

I do agree whith you,however it dosnt change my mind about short delays should be done hh,unless your doing an arial or has a exitpoint or climb to an exitpoint that makes it imposible to prepare a hh safely.

This is how I think it works (no first hand experience, just thinking about airflow).

If you go handheld, your pilot chute is completely open when you throw it in the airstream. Because it is already open when you throw it away, it can catch a lot of air, and start to function right away.

When you throw a stowed pilot chute in the air, it is kind of packed, and airstream is needed to open the pilotchute to let it function.
What seems to me that can happen on a hesitation is that the pilot chute moves toward the back of the jumper (when the bridle is fully extended), and is not enough opened yet. Because you are falling slow, and your body is already creating a burble, the airstream the pilot chute catches when it is behind you is quiet small, and maybe not enough to open it fully and let it work. I think this is why longer bridles when introduced to base, to make sure the pilot chute is more out of the jumpers burble (look at the fatality at BD in 87).
Ofcourse the problem becomes a lot bigger when the bridle itself is not fully extended yet (see Jaap's problem).

Hesitations can be fixed by letting more airstream reach the pilot chute (for example by rotating your body).

I could be completely wrong, so please don't shoot me if I am...

Thijs

This is not entirely accurate. One of the main reasons to use longer bridles was to increase snatch force for opening velcro rigs.

The people I learned base from told me the reason for longer bridles was both, to increase snatch force and to get the pilot chute farther from the burble.

Jeb

I was told by eye witness/es that Shannon too about 2.5 sec.

Did anyone here see anything different?

Also, I got conflicting reports about what happend before/during/after the toss.

Trouble finding it?
Caught in burble?
Bridle wrap?

The only thing consistant was that she turned slightly, the pilot chute caught air, started to extract canopy, then impact.

I know she had neck surgery and was out for some time.

i know whe had a couple of openings the day before that aggrevaeted her injury.

I know she packed slider up as a result and decided to take a longer delay.

So what happened after her 2.5 second delay?

When taking 2+s handheld, I thought that general practice was to hold the packed PC quite tightly (and not open as for a short, say 1s, delay) to avoid it causing noticeable drag on one side and therefore a turn. Isn't this in essence the same (in terms of how the PC is packed) as going stowed?

However, this got me thinking about how the PC enters the airflow in the 2 configurations: on hand-held, the PC is in your hand in front of you, and must therefore enter the air stream in a different manner (from the front and away from any burble?) to reaching behind the container and throwing it from there?

My question is therefore: is there any particular issue regarding the going stowed / lazy throw / low airspeed combination that anyone has ever heard of?

I'm not speculating on this particular event, just curious since I'm experimenting with short delay stowed jumps.

Are there any videos or pictures?

So far I've heard: hand-held, stowed, PC in burble, bridle wrapped, very short delay (about 1 sec), 2.5 sec delay, and both slider up and down

I for one think we should get to the bottom of this so everyone can learn something from this tragic accident.

A couple facts...
Stowed
Slider up
At least 2 sec delay

There is video and I have not seen it.

The original rigs were skydiving pin rigs. Short bridles led to weak snatches and pilot chutes riding in the burble. Hence, longer bridles were the obvious conclusion... Look at the Bridge day 1983 video... very interesting. And the Steve Gersting incident in 1987 at Bridge Day. Be careful people.

Yes, I completely agree with Jeb's conclusions. The only reason to go stowed is if there is a compelling reason, like aerials, long delays, or a very difficult exit point. A caveat regarding long delays - I have done long delay where I prefer to go hand held. Specifically for low pulls. This must be done carefully with a proper pilot chute folding to minimize the pc catching air while in your hand. If done poorly, the pilot chute can drag while it's in your hand, resulting in the jumper being barrel rolled, which has happened and nearly led to fatalities. The way I fold it handheld causes the pilot chute to literally spring open, which requires particular types of top skin tapes.

While stowed, the pilot chute material has memory. That's why jumpers generally repack their pilot chute not too long before their jump for consistent pilot chute inflation.

I personally am terrified of exposing the bridle to the spandex pouch. I stow my bridle within the pilot chute.

I have included a write up by Adam CR about going stowed. Note that it was written 9 years ago. You guys need to rely upon the hard earned acculumated knowledge of the established BASE community.

Remember this: No task is so simple that it cannot be done wrong!

On how long delays
Which kind of pc
pin or velcro
how long bridel

I have taken a 42 AV ZP pc on 3-3,5 secs HH serval times whith pin rig and spectra loops.PC were most of the times folded like a musroom but only holding on to the mesh.

My biggest consern on thouse jumps were the thourght of a horsshoe mal.
The hardest pull ive got on a pc were on a 3 sec delay off 400ft were the pc manneged to shake my hand just before i let go.

I do belive that you should choose a fairly big pc and take like a slider up delay(in my world=+4-5secs)going HH,to get dragged into a barelroll.

I has to say that i wont recomend doing so long delays HH,i had my reassons when i did,but the smart thing should be atleast stowed at jumps in the 3+sec delay rangeEDIT: ofcourse whith a proberly packed PC

That said you never see me stowed sub 300ft

In some cases, it has been people using 42 ZP PC's doing 4 second delays with the pilot chute highly exposed. In other cases, it's been with 52 inch F111 parainnovator pc's. It was with either velcro closed rigs or single pin skydiving rigs. The point being is that a highly exposed pilot chute can torque the jumper and lead to uneven shoulders, which can be a significant hazard on some objects.

I have done terminal with a 42 inch ZP PC and 38 inch ZP PC in my hand many years ago. This was when I had a BASE rig from 1984 (Steve Morrell's rig, BASE 174) that was a converted Wonderhog reserve container. It had no spandex pouch so going stowed was not an option.

After much thought I decided to share the following information. I did receive some digital pictures from a co-worker of mine who happened to be on the bridge when Shannon made her last jump.I can tell you with certainty a few points about her jump. This is not video, so even though I may have my own beliefs on what happened, I'm going to only share what is fact and evident by the pictures. There's 4 main photos taken of her jump. The first photo is her almost leaving the plank. Her gear appears to be configured correctly and a non-issue. The second photo is her in freefall after she has appeared to have just pitched the PC. In this picture I can see no bridle but the PC is fully out and is partly inflated on her back in the bottom middle of her container. It should be noted that Shannon has near perfect body position at the time of her pitch. The third photo appears to be Shannon reaching straight back over her shoulders for her PC. At this time it is evident that the bridle is wrapped around her right arm/shoulder w/PC approximately in the same position as it was in the second photo. The fourth photo is Shannon getting close to impact and is on her back/side with nothing out. Her PC is not visible in this photo. With all of the talk of what has happened I felt it was important to share this information and debunk some of the rumors I have heard.
R.I.P. Shannon

Jamie Boutwell

Jamie, Check your PMs

Just because you OR I have not seen it, it does no mean it has not happened.

Lazy throws are common. Just as they are on CRW jumps, freefall jumps, accuracy jumps, etc.

P/c gets caught on the back due to restrictions caused by packing errors and/or equipment configuration issues, OR, the most likely cause is placing the p/c into the burble on the back (lazy throw).

Everything happens in this sport. Any scenario you can dream of has probably already occured!!!

Hand held - student/inexperienced initiates throwing motion - i.e. hand with p/c moves towards body and then away, at full extension away the p/c is released. I have seen an inexperienced jumper released when the hand was directed towards the body and the p/c ended up on the persons back. Net result was a hessie a/c p/c in burble. IT cleared with wild thrashing and resulted in off heading. No video.

As I have said, anything is possible.

Categorically YES. Your body is moving and it is displacing air molecules. This displacement induces turbulence / burble. As the body speeds up the burble magnitude becomes greater.

At lower airspeeds there is less likelihood of p/c hessies because it is physically harder to place your pilot chute there and the forces are not as strong as in higher airspeed deployments. I think it is worse around the 2 to 5 second mark - at terminal anything in the airflow will catch air and initiate deployment (i.e. bridle). At lower airspeeds the force is less and hence a bridle may not have sufficient drag to initiate deployment.

I agree with your statement. Anything over 2 secs would fit well with your explanation. And Shannons case I think it sounds pretty clear from Jamie's email that she was well into the 3 to 4 second range before turned and realized a PC hessie was taking place.

Thanks for your response and clear explaination; it helps.

J.P.

An old saying in tandem jumping goes, "no drogue, no main," but in BASE jumping it’s, “no pilot chute, no nothing.”

In my earlier days when toss time came I’d wind up and throw the pilot chute like Orel Hershiser flinging the last pitch in world series no-hitter. And at that time we were using, in general, larger and heavier pilot chutes, like the Hank 52. You could break a window with that bomb drogue. Of course this also led to off heading deployments especially on short delays as the weight and momentum of the pilot chute pulled your deployment off center.

It was then most manufacturers and many mentors started suggesting a less aggressive throwing motion and concentrating more on a squared up body position. So now instead of launching a pilot chute like the hand grenade it is many are tossing like they are skydiving. But, pilot chutes are lighter and smaller nowadays and even if an aggressive throw skews your opening, who cares, especially off a bridge, most of us would settle for an open canopy no matter which way its facing . . . because at least it’s still an opening.

If you’re going to stow, you’d better really throw . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Any chance that the pc mesh got caught on some exposed velcro? It seems pretty common for the shrivel flap to be pulled away from the velcro through ordinary movement..

To all, not just NickDG...

Please be careful not to have a knee jerk reaction to what happened to Shannon. What I mean is, out of the thousands and thousands of jumps that have gone off the TF’s bridge, let's not start telling new people to be OK with off-headings because of one burble fatality. Granted, NickDG I know you probably mean only the TF bridge, because I know of three spans that I jump that an off heading can/will seriously injure/kill you. So if that is the case, my worry is that most students use TF to learn and it’s going to be hard for them to apply a different throwing technique when it really matters…

All in all, I know we are all struggling to understand what happened to Shannon… But realistically, you’ve just got to do the numbers. The TF’s bridge is probably the most jumped object in America. It is bound to see mal’s that we don’t see very often, especially given how many jumpers show up to TF’s for events like Memorial Day.

Again just my thoughts…

Michael

Yes, I sort of agree with that, but there's been more than one fatality attributed to pilot chute malfunctions, and many more close calls . . .

I was intent more on explaining the process whereby we reached the point we are at now, rather than change anything. And I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to an occasional lazy toss.

One thing noticeable at TF, and a sad thing too,- is if you take into account how far we've come in 30 years, how much more we know, and how much more effectively we are at passing info around - there are still people making common sense mistakes.

I cautioned several from jumping hand held with the bridle running out the bottom of their hands. And I saw others going with so much exposed mesh their pilot chutes were partially inflated before they threw, but the topper was the hand held jumper who brought both hands into her chest and then threw the pilot chute out - I mean, come on, are you trying to entangle?

The problem, I think, might be as simple as Jack-ism . . .

Jack is from your home DZ, he’s a BASE jumper, and he’s teaching you because he’s a really cool guy. You come to something like TF on Memorial Day and even though you’re surrounded by some of the most knowledgeable jumpers in the sport, you’re sticking with Jack. Maybe you got lucky and he’s a good Jack, but maybe you didn’t and he’s a bad Jack. How do you know?

Please, are you interested in BASE? Then take a BASE course – any established BASE course, because after all you really don’t know Jack . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Awesome post Nick ...