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Anyone have the no shit technical explanation for what happened yesterday? Preferably from someone who examined the gear and or video afterwards.

No rumors or second hand info......
No names please...

is he ok?

As I understand it, there were two trips to the hospital Friday, one significantly more serious than the other, one on land and the other in water.

Hope all are well.

I saw some video, and also was able to see the high resolution still photos taken from the exit point. The gear is currently drying on my back porch. I did not see the jump in person (I was packing at the top).

The jump was a 5 way. For incident analysis, the only important part is the center 3 jumper piece. The outer 2 jumpers were both doing TARD-overs and were open high and out of the picture.

The central piece was a 3 jumper Rollover to Double PCA Waterfall. The middle jumper rolled over his canopy while holding the PC's of the other 2 jumpers, with the intention to PCA them when he opened (an example of this type of jump can be viewed here). The 3 jumpers had made this jump successfully (although not ideally) on 2 previous occasions during the last 2 days.

Conditions were not ideal. There was a significant tailwind at the exit. There are several photos showing the rollover canopy at angles as high as 70 degrees in front of the jumpers, prior to the jump.

The center jumper had great difficulty rolling over his canopy, and apparently the canopy was blown forward strongly enough that he actually hit and passed through it while rolling over it, resulting in a small entanglement (which cleared immediately in freefall) and some minor scrapes from the risers.

The center jumper exited significantly before the outer 2 jumpers. As a result, he extracted them both in a downward direction (canopies deploying below the falling jumpers). He kept the PC's in hand until sometime late in the extraction sequence (one still photo shows a fully extended bridle in a downward direction and a canopy at perhaps half of line stretch below the jumper).

The right side jumper fell past his canopy on the outside (right of the 3 way piece), and the canopy cleared and opened (slider up) without further incident.

The left side jumper was pulled by bridle tension into a barrel roll, and entangled with his canopy. The PC appears to have been released at some point after line stretch, and the inflating PC appears to have travelled upward through the canopy and lines, resulting in an entanglement between the bridle and the canopy, which almost totally pinched off the canopy. At the same time, the canopy was snagged somewhere at or immediately above the line attachments, attached to the jumpers left elbow (he had rolled almost completely over onto his back at this point). The net result was a canopy streamering perhaps 4 feet above the jumpers left elbow, with almost zero inflation.

The jumper impacted fast approximately 15 feet offshore, most likely on his side, in a side first position.

The jumper sustained numerous minor contusions, fractured ribs, compression fractures of 2 vertebrae and collapsed and bruised lungs. At last report, he was on a ventilator at Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise, in stable condition, in the Intensive Care Unit. He is expected to recover. Spectators were certain that he must have died on impact, so this is very good news.

Life Flight put a helicopter down in the landing area to extract the jumper (the second time in 2 days the Life Flight helicopter had landed there).


Some subjective thoughts of mine:

1) Body Armor. The jumper was wearing a Dianese Safety Jacket, which I think greatly reduced his injuries from the impact, in particular protecting his spine from major trauma. The armor was also the likely snag point on his elbow (it was his outermost layer), so it may have been a mixed blessing (the bridle entanglement would probably have created a very serious incident even without the elbow snag, though).

2) Exit Timing. On waterfall jumps, exit timing is absolutely critical. Extracting a canopy below a falling jumper is a very bad situation. If you are the high jumper on one of these jumps and find yourself in a low position, I recommend immediately releasing the pilot chute(s) of jumpers above you, to prevent this downward extraction. Any resulting mis-staging of the openings is going to be much better than a major malfunction like this one.

3) Life Flight. This was the second time in 2 days that the Saint Alphonsus Life Flight helicopter stationed at Magic Valley Regional Medical Center (in Twin Falls) was called to the landing area. I encourage jumpers to make a donation to the Life Flight service that saves our lives (the MVRMC emergency response teams will be the beneficiaries of the charity event at Woodies tonight, as well, so be sure to give a donation there, or to Jamie Boutwell, who is collecting for that donation).


The injured jumper was Jason Cooper, of Calgary, Canada. He is an experienced (and usually quite conservative) jumper. His (twin) brother was the other packed jumper in the 3 way piece, and landed near him approximately 10 seconds after impact. His family has been notified, and his wife travelled to Boise last night and this morning.

By my count, we had 5 trips to the hospital on Thursday and Friday. 2 jumpers were actually admitted. One had surgery here at Magic Valley, the other was flown to Saint Alphonsus, in Boise.

Be careful out there, people, just because it's a bridge doesn't mean reality is suspended.

So what your saying is BASE jumping is dangerous.
i had no idea.

I think Tom is the wrong person to make such a sarcastic remark to, since I believe he well-knows how dangerous BASE is.

Derka Derka Mohamed Juhad!

fjljlkdcjlkjfoimc, jdoisjdoimndf,mzn

I don't want to second guess people like Tom whom I know are dealing with a heap of *^%% already. I also know that they are doing their best to educate a bunch of trigger happy adrenalin junkies. But I have to open my big mouth and say: this is exactly the type of stunt that is going to exponentially add to "The List". The more complexity that people add to their jumps and the more precision that is required, the lower the margin for error and the higher the chance of an incident.

This is NOT a hindsight comment either. It is a foresight comment - inevitably, it will continue to happen. From my own personal experience I know that people like Tom A are doing their best to educate the troops, but I think it is better to say that this type of jump has bad idea written all over it. As I said, failing the option of convincing people not to do it, giving them technical advice is the "least worst option of two bad alternatives".

Hope everyone learns from the experience.

I hope J recovers 100% to tell the tale. Sounds like a great horror story with interesting video!!!!!!!!

Tom A suggested an alternative in this shit happened scenario. I wonder if the jumping group considered this? I also wonder if the people involved were capable of assessing the situation during the jump and then acting out the plan B if it arose? This is the type of thinking and action/reaction that allows people to do high degree of difficulty jumps successfully.

Plan the jump. Think of ALL possible stuff ups. Have an action plan for the stuff ups. Practice them until they are ingrained. Make sure you have the skill and experience to do the jump. Then execute.

Just a thought.

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2006/05/28/news_topstory/news_topstory.1.txt

someone can make a clicky...

from onheading.com forum...

http://www.magicvalley.com/.../news_topstory.1.txt

 

First off these comments are NOT directed at TreeJumps ...

At the risk of alienating myself from some in the BASE community ... WTF people? Are some of you getting so bored with your jumps that you've decided the only way to have fun is the push the envelope to the point where people are dying and/or seriously getting messed up? After watching the video of the successful jump from last year, it's clear that this is the case. What's next? Oh and don't forget, whatever crazy jump some of you guys feel you need to do because you're bored and/or need to make a name for yourself, don't forget to get video.

BASE jumping is not safe to begin with and it sure is as dangerous as you want to make it and the trend is obviously towards how dangerous can we make this.

Here's hoping that Jason can make a full recovery, but it's time people start waking up.

 
>>Dude, Canuck I understand your sentiment. It's plenty windy here and I've got nothing better to do, so here's my thoughts: Nothing you're going to say or do or post is going to stop people from doing anything. You can't really, and in it's own way it's what makes BASE-jumping what it is. No one can tell you what you should or shouldn't do, what's a good idea and what isn't, or what's appropraite and what isn't. You just figure it out for yourself, or it figures itself out for you...
It Is What IT IS...
And it's just always been that way

i read the news this morning...

i hope for a speedy recovery.

be safe.

I don't know how alienating it is, but it might be better placed in the Incidents forum. Then again, maybe not. But you might want to wait until he's well again to give him shit for it. Timing is everything. It's one thing to report what happened, but quite another to go all judgmental--ranting never made anything better.

I keep hoping for a report from someone who actually knows exactly how Jason is doing. He's a great guy, and it's hard to sit here wondering how he is.

One of the great comforts when Matt got hurt is that there were folks who went out of their way to let everyone know his progress.

The above is intended to be a whole lot more blatant than a mere hint.

Heal fast, Jason.

rl

My comments aren't directed at Jason. They are directed at anyone showing up at a site like this bridge and saying, "Aghh that's just boring, let's do this way instead because it will look way cooler".


Yes I know this, I have met him and his brother.

I am at the Hospital with Jason and his family.

I was taking Tom's First jump course at the time and Jason and his brother drove down with me to do some jumping.

Jason is currently in surgery to fuse and stabilize the worst of his broken vertebrae. He has remained on the ventilator today but is doing phenomenal all things considered. Jason also has numerous rib fractures, a broken scapula, lung contusions, a broken tailbone, and tons of bruising. He has remained lucid and has been communicating quite effectively with sign language and through pen and paper.

Jason is still bright as ever; while having detailed conversations in his room about some pretty technical stuff, he has been the one many times to fill in the blanks for us.

Jason will be back in ICU much later tonight following surgery and tomorrow we will have a better idea about what's what.

We are all positive and optimistic about Jason making a good recovery from this. It will certainly be a long road.

Andrew

>>Absolutely right on the money.


>>Right on! My advice is to do your best to infuse him with a positive attitude. It will pay off in the long run.

Dear Andrew,

Thank you.

It's good to get the important news, especially when it's good news, relatively speaking.

I had to laugh when I read:

"...has been communicating quite effectively..."

and

"...while having detailed conversations in his room about some pretty technical stuff..."

He has given me some of the best debates I've had in the time I've been on dz.com, and it is very reassuring to hear that the analytical part of his personality isn't taking a break even in this situation.

Is there anything he or his wife needs? Please let me know.

Thank you again for your post.

rl

Hey Andrew,

I attended my first course with Marta and Jimmy last week and had the good fortune to meet the 'Canadians' - was shoked to hear about Jason's accident and the circumstances. If you head back to the hospital, please pass on my best to Jason - hope to see him out there again soon. Thanks

Mick

All,

I've removed some smartass comments and one liners from this thread. Please keep this for serious discussion of the incident and surrounding issues.

Thanks!

dude,People in this sport need to risk mannegement their jumps. is it worth it what could happen.Most people does so.calculating risk and be honest to yourself if you should do that jump.

Dont go judge any one for a jump you wouldnt do.In the first place most people wouldnt skydive,neither BASE,thouse who does so are getting somthing from their lifestyles that is in higher value than the risk of dying or get injuryed.

You do BASe as safe and legal as you want to,dont blame thouse who´s going longer or harder than you,their margin is bigger than yours.

whith out thouse daring to do somthing extra you wouldnt have neither skydive or BASE today..

That said.. please be careful out there guys/gals,people does get killed and injuryed out there,make sure to know your own and jumpers limits,and be sure that you can acsept the risk your about to take,is it worth it?

Heal fast Jason

I was the jumper holding the Coopers PCs and I do take full responsibility for “killing” Jason, I said killing because no human should have survived such impact.

Jason, Michael, and I were in TF for the whole week. We had not met before but we bounded like it happens few times in a life time. Very rarely in my time I am able to BS to the very end of the human intellect. With the Coopers, such a BS was the very reason of the bound. We made one of those rare-life-long connections that I can count just using the digits of a single hand.

We made few jumps together, hybrid jumps with me going unpacked and the twins going packed. The non-ideal jumps (as per Tom A.) were nonetheless fun and I unsuccessfully did not manage to kill the brothers. Even the devil himself at times does fuck up.

We did plan the jump for a few days. It was supposed to be a jump to celebrate the birthday and the 100th jump of another jumper on the load who I was jumping for the whole week and having a good time with.

We were hoping for very high wind for that jump, yes you read right. The first idea was for me to kite the canopy while holding the Coopers’ PCs and two tards on the side (not tard-overs). I would then tell the Coopers to go, jump myself after ½ sec and PCA them. We all agreed on the jump.

The evening of the jumps we had some tail winds but not strong enough for a successful kite-under.

While we were setting up, my tarp was getting inflated and I almost called up the jump. Then the winds died out and my canopy although not straight below me was hanging down far enough for me to clear it with a strong launch. Even if I did hit it in FF I know it would have not been a big deal at least not to the other four jumpers for sure.

The set up looked good. I asked for everybody if there were ready and started the count. According to the video we all exited at the same time unlike what Tom reported. Yet with me jumping down and forward and the twins jumping up and forward the vertical separation was not ideal. At the end of my roll-over I felt both PC leaving my hands at the same time. I looked around for other canopies, saw good separation, and saw what it looked to me a sniveling canopy. Michel was slider up and his vented (no valves) Fox with large-hole mesh slider at times strangely snivels for a long time. So I thought that it was Michael (the Coopers have very similar canopy colors).

Then I heard the laud impact and I knew something terribly wrong had happened. I crash-landed, removed my harness and started running towards the area of the impact. I was approached by another jumper who said “sorry mate, he’s dead”. If he was dead I had to see it with my own eyes. When I approached, Michael was holding Jason to my surprised because I thought that Michael went in. I jumped into the water and hugged both of them. To my surprise Jason was still breathing. I thought that he was going to die shortly and the least I could do was to embrace the moment making sure Jason died surrounded with the good stuff in life. Then another surprise came. Jason was coherent in his speech, too coherent for someone about to die despite his extraordinary intellect. Then yet another surprise came, Jason could feel his legs and arms and move his toes and fingers. I was shocked. I then realized that he had good chances of making it.

Everyone loves to point fingers so please get it off your chest and crucify me. Honestly I am the happiest camper knowing Jason has good chances of surviving and most likely BASE jump again.

So what did go wrong? It’s BASE jumping that’s want went wrong. We do stupid shit to be in the moment. BASE is not perfect no matter how hard one tries and when your 3-way launch does not go as planned the result is not a funnel and a laugh. We all knew that. The five of us on the load are not bunch of yahoo-BASE-wonna-be-big-ego-maniacs, trust me on that. We thought the jump, we planned it, we tried it, we all agreed to go for it.

Now the more physical part on what went wrong. An accident is always a chain of events. Despite the exit Jason’s Velcro rig was part of the problem. As the twins were above me, the out-of-sequence-deployment started. The suggestion of Tom A. of releasing the PCs is as wrong as it gets, and no Tom I won’t fucking elaborate. If you are so dumb not to realize what could happen when you prematurely release the PCs despite the position of the PCAers then pretty please keep erroneous suggestions for yourself.

Michael’s pin rig started to open because pins gets pulled out despite the position of the force applied to them. Jason on the other hand started to be barrel-rolled on the side more violently than Michael because Velcro does not do a great job releasing sideway. When the shrivel flap finally opened, Jason was on his side and the canopy (most likely the multi) entangled with his elbow armor. Jason had very little out. No part of the canopy was inflated. He hit probably just of a few miles per hour below than someone would hit jumping without a rig.

If Jason did not have several sharp snagging points on his arm, there were good chances the canopy would have freed itself. If Jason did not have a back protector he would have probably died on impact.

I for one would give everything I have to be in Jason’s position, there is no doubt in my mind. I sustained injuries in the past almost as severe as Jason’s and I know I can tough them out; I also know Jason will but I just wish it was me being all fucked up not him. I do feel responsible about the accident being the “load organizer” and the fact that I was responsible for the successful deployment of the canopies. I will keep BASE and do stupid human tricks because I am scared of not living. I hope one day the Coopers and I will re-perform the same jump with a better outcome.

I have met some incredible human beings on this trip and also got to know the true nature of some not-so-incredible ones who all they care is their super-inflated egos.

Jason and Michael, I fucking loved you since the moment that magic word enabled us to meta-BS.
As for the other two jumpers on the load, I will keep trying killing you because I love you too.

I have set up a found for Jason so we could get him a new rig (we had to cut the MLF and Jason wanted to get a pin rig anyway!). If interested paypal me (nicknitro71@yahoo.com) any amount you wish making sure you put “For Jason” on the header. The list will appear on my rigging website with updates on Jason’s conditions.

Nick

Firstly – my best wishes to Jason, may he make a full and speedy recovery.

Now – what can we learn from this? From what is posted, general consensus, experience and logic, we have the following:

1 – tailwinds are bad for rollovers
2 – exposed body armour and/or pads present significant snag hazards and should be covered to prevent snags
3 – exit timing on multi-ways can be critical

These are three things I think we can all agree on.

Then there are some points that you disagree on and I do not understand why.

For the benefit of people like myself, please explain the logic of not releasing the PCs if the exit order is wrong?

Provided you did not stand shoulder to shoulder, I cannot see how releasing the PC in case the other jumper gets higher than you is bad. It seems like the most logical and safe thing to do.

When Tom and Maggot and I did that very same jump, Tom exited late and Maggot did not throw his PC, resulting in a downward extraction for Tom and a really nasty SD/SO opening that gave him a bloody nose despite wearing a full-face helmet. Had Maggot released Tom’s PC when he saw Tom above his level, Tom would’ve fallen past his PC and then had a normal deployment, below Maggot’s level and likely still above me as I was slider up. Even if he ended up on level with me, we had some horizontal separation.

I would really like to know your reasoning on this.

Also why you thought that it would all be OK for everyone else even if you hit your canopy?? WTF?? If you had gotten the exit timing perfect and you got wrapped in your canopy when you hit, it is possible that it could stay collapsed enough that you might not have enough extra drag over the packed jumpers to provide a safe freefall PCA. If you were perfectly wrapped I guess it is even possible that holding on to the PCs could result in a triple fatality on this type of jump from this particular object.

I realize there are two (or more) sides to every story, but your own account here raises these questions.

Did anyone say a rollover in tailwind is a bad idea? Did you know that by using a tailgate, the primary stow with 2 wraps and wrapping the tail of the canopy around everything but the nose you will greatly reduce the canopy’s drag and it will not get blown in front of you much, even in higher winds? Did anyone there say the conditions were not good for the jump you had planned? Did anyone there point out to Jason that exposed body armour has multiple snag points?

I jump full Dainese body armour on some jumps and even though the suit is very hot, I always wear long pants and a long sleeves over it a bare minimum. I sweat like a pig then, but I have no snag points.

I’m glad everyone involved is still alive, but it is frustrating that it seems like all the knowledge needed to avoid this incident was out there and just ignored…

I always have and always will share what I know, or have heard, with people when I see them do things I believe to be adding unnecessary risk, like jumping exposed armour or doing rollovers in tailwinds.

People may keep thinking I’m an asshole for doing that, but hopefully now some of them will reconsider my motivation and think about why some things are bad ideas.

Cya

Hey man
Thanks for posting your point of weiv.

We all know that things can turn nasty in this sport,we all agree to thouse facts as we jump.

Learning from mistakes are the only way to prevent them happening again and even then we will still fu#k up.

All my support to thouse involved i hope Jason will make a full recovery in as short time as posible.

Nick if you need a slot taken on a load next time im arround ill be happy to take that slot,no worryes.

I'd really like to keep this a discussion of the mechanics of the accident. No one is pointing fingers at you, aside from yourself. I don't see anyone trying to crucify anyone else. Would it be ok if we talk about the accident, what happened, and how others can avoid such problems in the future, but without trying to assign blame or take things personally?




Can you explain what you see as the difference between a pin and velcro rig in this situation? Greater pull force required to open the velcro rig contributed to the barrel roll?



I know that you said you weren't willing to explain this, but I'd really appreciate if you would. Releasing the PC's when low gives the best chance to maintain the deployment sequence of the parachute. Holding onto the PC pulls the canopy down under the jumper. In the best case, if the PC is released the moment the PC holder realizes he will go low, he ought to be able to let go of it before he is too far below the packed jumper, with the PC passing between them and deploying the canopy. While there is some entanglement potential there, it ought to be relatively minimal, and in any case better than the problems created by upside-down inflation.

Thanks in advance for your willingness to educate me.

i has to agree whith Nick you will have a greater pull force on a velcro pulled the way it aint meant compared to a pin rig at the same place. about the same as in old days it were dangerus to go head down whith a velcro rig if it wasnt modifyed corectly.

just try your toogles if you try pulling them straight down close to the risers then try pull out and down,im sure the last will be more easy.

if that has contributed in this incedent i cant tell as i didnt see the jump,nor am i sure i would be abel to tell from video. but i would agree that maintained velcro pulled to a wrong side will be more dificult to pull than regular velcro,and even by primed velcro i´d say that i usaly (slider off jumps) has less force required to pop my harness open than a velcrorig.

Yes, shear force on velcro is worse when pulled straight down on a toggle, but a toggle is built different then the shrivel flap on a velcro rig. They're called "shrivel flaps" for a reason. They release the same no matter which direction they are pulled. . The issue of higher shear forces is the reason they are made as they are. I've got 3 velcro rigs and I can't tell any difference in force no matter which direction I pull the bridle. The simple fact is it takes a higher force to open velcro rigs, which may be the reason it pulled him over, not the fact that the velcro was somehow being "sheared" Of course this is only my opinion, and it may not be right as far as i know but it seems to be

Nick's story about what happened is pretty much right on! Releasing the PC's prematurely gives you the normal snivel problem you would have had if you were PCA'ing them from the other side of the rail on the bridge. If you recognized you were below them, remember Nick is upside down in the middle of a rollover in less than optimal winds concentrating on not releasing the PC' early, there would be the fear of entangling them in their own bridles and killing them both.

As it was, and Nick can comment on this, Nick rolled over, felt the PC's pop from his hand, and started looking for other canopies to avoid a collision. It was after that that the problem became apparent. I had a 90 right and was dealing with the not hitting the rocks when I heard Nick yell. When I turned Jason was in the water. I know the other 4 of us feared the worst and just headed to the ground as quickly and safely as possible.

The Velcro rig did cause part of the problem. If you notice in the photos Michael's canopy is out of the container and being pulled off his back towards the inside. Jason's rig stayed closed until he was inverted and the force of Nick's pull was away from his back instead of to the side. At that point the canopy started coming out under Jason's right arm and Nick is still holding the PC. When Nick released the PC it came up the left side of Jason's body entangling with the still unopened main and there it stayed until impact. In hindsight, if Nick would have held the PC longer and given the canopy a chance to catch more air the much larger drag of the main would probably have pulled the PC to the right side of Jason's body instead. In this particular instance, if Nick would have released the PC while Jason was on his side the force of the PC would have righted Jason's roll and extracted the main normally, but I hope you can see that the probability of that result is not necessarily the highest.

Jason got very lucky and is doing incredibly well. The only real issue I see that we overlooked in our planning was the consideration of possible vertical separation between the exits of Nick and the twins. After discussing the details of this jump it is clear we should have still had Jason and Michael exit a little early. Too early however would have pulled Nick into his canopy and we would have had a different situation to deal with.

We discussed this jump in detail. We went over the exit timing multiple times on the ground. They had tried the 3-way portion of this jump previously and were successful. All we were adding were the two outside tardovers. Due to the off heading characteristics of a tardover we had about 6 canopy width of separation between Vince and I along with the expected vertical separation.

Like Nick said, this wasn't something we decided to do as we were walking onto the bridge and saw Jason and Michael with packed rigs. There was a lot of thought and planning that went into it and we still overlooked an important detail. We did not realize how critical the timing could or would become. "The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry"


*****
While writing this I received a call from Michael and he said Jason is doing very well. He is off the ventilator and breathing on his own. He still has a long way to go, but it looks like he will have a complete recovery. Keep up the good vibes.
*****

Tony

No-one is saying you guys did not think about the jump.

Some people are saying the groups' analysis of the possible failure modes of the jump was wrong.

The exit timing (and style) is critcial on that particular jump.

If for whatever reason the PC-holder gets below the level of the PCA-ee(s), he/she has to release the PCs. It turns the PCA-ee(s) jump into a normal freefall with a downward and sideways PC placement and that works just fine given altitude (which this bridge has enough of).

The PC-holder HAS to have the awareness of his level relative to the PCA-ee(s) during the whole waterfall, regardless of his body position.

Being upside down in a rollover is no excuse for not using your peripheral vision.

I do not see how releasing their PCs early could have resulted in an increased entanglement risk for them.

How far was Nick from Jason? It seems that he pulled him right around by the bridle, which suggest Nick was WAY below Jason, or he was a little below and far off to the side.

Between 3 very smart guys (by all accounts) they should have been able to see that the right thing to do when the PC-holder is below the PCA-ee(s) is to release the PC.

It should also have been obvious that the PCA-ee(s) leaving early is the safest option. At the very extreme of leaving early, it turns the jump into a normal PCA from the bridge.

I hope people will think about this now and understand the required exit timing on this jump.

Also what is required of the PC-holder.

I wish Jason a speedy recovery (again) and I hope Nick can forgive himself for what happened.


Here is what I really hope everyone learns from this:

Please do not do any jumps if you do not truly understand the mechanics and dynamics of them.

Please do not do these jumps in sub-optimal weather conditions.

Please do not leave snag points from padding (or anything else) exposed. Cover them up. This includes the loose tail of this type of sunglass-cord. This includes lace hooks on boots too, many jumpers still jump in boots with lace hooks.


this bit worries me the most:


It's the MOST important issue on this jump!

Any number of jumpers would have told you that if you asked them.

I say shame on everyone who saw them set up and did not point out that a tailwind is BAD for rollovers and that exposed body armour has snag points.

no concerns about snag points?
really?

9 ft bridles?
each twin might be 10 ft away from Nick to keep the containers closed. Nick's canopy is dangling below. unless everyone can maintain their relative position, there will be nylon and lines everywhere.

and no one considered snag points?

I must be missing something...
I'm confused.

heal fast Jason!

The timing did not really come up as a concern because it had been done before and worked. I heard a comment regarding Nick leaving a little early on that jump and so we just decided it was critical to leave together. Nick would roll over before bridle stretch and the extraction of canopies would happen below him. The horizontal separation between Nick, Michael, and Jason was minimized, about a shoulder width from my angle probably less from reviewing stills, to allow slack in the bridle which bystanders were helping to manage. So it would have been a mistake on Nick’s part to release the PC’s. It was not until he had been pulled laterally away from Jason this technique would have helped. When Nick exited he dove down over his canopy to decrease the chance of entanglement and this combined with Jason and Michael's heads up exit caused the unplanned separation.

Maybe we should have called it off when Nick was wrestling his canopy, but I was on the outside in a relatively safe position and felt that decision was his, Jason's, and Michael's to make. When the count started I got ready to jump and deal with my issues.

Regarding snag issues I have a very different viewpoint than even Nick. Jason and Michael have been jumping this armor for some time. Michael was wearing it at the Turkey Boogie this year. Apparently, they did not consider the snag potential a real risk. In this accident I do not believe the problem had anything to do with a hangup on the armor. I will do a more thorough review and correct myself if I’m wrong. From my review the canopy comes out of the container on Jason’s right side while on his back. Simultaneously, Nick releases the PC which comes up Jason’s left side. The PC comes into contact with the Main canopy and wraps around it or the lines. Jason is now tied up in a sort of reverse horseshoe with the lines across his back and nothing else to do that would help in the time remaining.

Nick’s opinion is based on needing to cut the multi off Jason’s right arm (I believe) to free him from the canopy. This however could have resulted from Jason trying to free himself, impact, or movement trying to get him out of the water enough to breathe. I do not remember how tight the lines from the multi were, but it one of the elbow pads was pulled partially loose. Again, this could have happened on impact.

I’m not trying to dodge a bullet here or protect my friend’s from the blame game. I’m just stating what we have determined through the course of our examination. We were all pretty shook up at the time and on perceptions may have been distorted. It is only through video and stills we have gotten as far as we have.

Saying that. A Shrivel Flaps shear on container opening. Contributes to Pulling a jumpers body weight off to a Barrel Roll.
Makes about as much sense as saying.
A Shrivel Flaps pull is so great that it can pull a jumpers self made. Bad Body Position and Off-Axis Roll. back into a Good body Pull Position at container opening before Canopy extraction.
.

The 3 jumpers had made this jump successfully (although not ideally) on 2 previous occasions during the last 2 days.

__________________________________________________
i'm curious to know if there was any post dive review of these "less than ideal" jumps by the people involved and if any corrective action was considered or implemented.

be safe
heal quickly

kleggo

didnt say it pulled the jumper arround just said that velcro requires more pull force specialy if it anit pulled the way its surposed to. ..

Hey all,

Thanks to everyone who's been sending good vibes Jason's way. It helps.

The mood at the hospital has been really upbeat. Jason's doing well, and the chances look very good for a full recovery. He'll be in the ICU at least one more day, but should be out of there soon. He's been up and walking a bit, although the few tubes and hoses which are still attached limit how far he can go. Still, the progress he's made over the last few days has been phenomenal.

The technical discussion has been pretty well covered here, I think. Still, I'd like to add my own viewpoint to the mix anyway. I think if we look too closely at stills and video, quite often we wind up isolating factors which are much too small and not unique to the particular jump, so I'm going to try to keep things pretty broad.

We had done the jump with the centre three on one previous occasion. That time I had experienced some instability as a result of exit timing issues, but things had worked out reasonably well anyway. We reviewed the video afterward, which confirmed the timing problems. When we decided to do the jump a second time (to clean it up), we went over the exit timing quite thoroughly. What we did not take into account was the difference in momentum of the jumpers coming off the bridge. The two outer jumpers were going up and out, and the centre was going down and out.

Things were a bit hurried at the exit point, but not enough to set off major alarms in my head. I did ask myself a number of times, "Is there anything about this situation which you are missing because of the hurry?" I still think the answer is, "No." The factors which I believe caused this incident were built into the jump, and did not result from conditions at the exit point. At the time we jumped, I believe the conditions were acceptable.

Immediately following our exit, I noticed a small amount of separation building. I received only a small input from the bridle tension because the pins released relatively easily, but the Velcro on Jason's rig did not release so easily, and tension on the bridle put him into a barrel roll. Jason rolled through the lines of his extracting canopy, and it seems also that when his pilot chute came back up to the canopy, it managed to choke the canopy off completely.

Although the lines of the canopy likely snagged on Jason's armour, I don't think the exposed armour was a major contributing factor. A light shirt over armour will prevent lines brushing by from snagging, but a line wrapped around an arm with tension will lock onto a bare elbow.

Reports from several others who saw the jump confirm my impression that Jason fought with the canopy as long as he could, and then when he realized impact was imminent, he made a quick adjustment to land on his back.

Tom has suggested letting go of the pilot chutes as a possible "out" for jumps like this. I've talked with Tom in person a bit about this, and agree it is a good thing to have in mind. However, I think it would be dangerous to give the impression that it's a good out. It is very important to practice the exit many times in such a way that you can guarantee the three jumpers have not just the same exit timing, but also the same momentum when leaving the exit point.

Thanks again to everyone who has expressed their well wishes. Jason has used 12 units of blood in the course of his treatment, which has made us particularly aware of the importance of blood donations. If you are able, please donate.

Michael

cheers for your point of weiv.

Whish Jason a full and speedy recovery.

Talking to Michael we did come to the conclusion that leaving not just with the same timing but with the same momentum is the most critical part of the jump however it is not that easy if not impossible at all.

We did fix the timing issue but IMO the momentum issue is un-fixable on this jump. The center jumper has to leave with a totally different launch than the side jumpers; there is no other way around it. The side jumpers cannot leave heads low and the center jumper cannot leave heads high. Having the side pieces to leave a moment earlier to ensure a proper vertical separation can have its ill consequences as well.

I believe this jump has some doomed intrinsic properties that NOBODY has thought before. The fact that it worked for me and others in the past, only acted to dull out possible tragic consequences.

Michael is 100% correct in stating that the causes of the incident were built and hidden into the jump not by the performance of it.

This is not a safe jump to be repeated by anybody and again the fact that it worked in the past does not mean a thing, really.

However there could be variations to the theme to ensure an almost equal launch-momentum. I am not suggesting anybody to perform similar jumps but nonetheless we must educate each other.

The center jumper could perform a float-drop-under slider up. With this launch all three jumpers could leave with the same momentum leaping straight down.

Another alternative is the jump we had in mind to begin with: center jumper kiting-under. This could ensure the three to jump with the same momentum. However this is an even more highly technical and also "dynamical" jump. It is a more dynamic jump because a discrete count cannot be given. The piece has to leave at the same time when the center jumper knows the canopy has a good position for an on-heading opening and this could take a while or just be ready as soon as the canopy is released.

I am still in disagreement about releasing the PCs prematurely. IMO an “anchor” in the sky is a better alternative than a PC wrapped around an arm or a leg despite the outcome of this particular jump. I could be wrong about it but I cannot see any advantages in releasing the PCs and I thought about this a lot.

In the end, I discourage anyone to repeat such jump despite the experience level and/or previous successful attempts.

So what are you saying ? You wouldn't recommend the jump to anyone else, BUT as you're so special and tough (taking a bullet for your buddy) you'll try it again someday despite the fact that in your opinion the jump is inherently flawed and that is why your friend nearly died.

Super-inflated-ego is about right Nick.

Public self flagellation (Oprah Winfrey style) 10 out of 10

Genuine introspection 2 out of 10 (must try harder).

ian

When I wrote the first post I did not have all the facts in hand and I truly thought I must have screwed up something during the jump.

Reviewing all the facts, it is now clear at least to me that there is an intrinsic problem with this jump no matter how it is performed.

No, I won't repeat this jump again, maybe variations of it to ensure same-momentum launch.

As usual, your irony is always appreciated and a great sign of your wisdom given the context.

And I still take full responsibility for what has happened.

I should have analyzed this jump in more details and again the fact that it worked in the past for me and others only shielded the true inherit danger of it.

You mean, you will do the jump again (3way with 2 person waterfall) but you'll do it differently (i.e. correctly) to avoid the problems which caused the near death of your friend (i.e. launch timings).

Hey, that's cool. When you're trying new stuff out, then the price is often high, and i for one don't believe there is any obligation on you not to keep trying to do this jump if that is what you want and you're happy to accept the consequences.

I utterly disagree that you can take full responsibility for the outcome. That's just crap. BASE is about individual responsibility....period. That includes being responsible for allowing someone else to deploy your canopy for you. Jason made a mistake (he placed his life in the hands of another jumper, possibly over estimating their and his own abilities) and he is lucky to be alive and i genuinely wish him all the best for a full recovery.

I assume you mean my irony is misplaced given that a man's life was almost lost. Yes there is a certain irony here, but it certainly isn't in anything i have said. You should look closer to home.

This is wake up call for you Nick. You might not get a second one. I'd advise you don't fritter it away by drawing the wrong conclusions.

ian

If you want to turn this into a pissing contest please PM me.

You are not contributing anything to the thread but your mindless and childish comments or anything that I and others already know.

PS

The launch timing was not the issue here.

I have no desire to take this to PM. The fact that you don't like what i have to say doesn't make it childish and inane, and saying i'm not contributing to the discussion when i point out the fact that your statements are at best contradictory and at worst utterly hypocritical doesn't stop that from being true.

The simple truth is, you got out of your depth. You stopped respecting the dangers. You became complacent. That is the lesson for everyone out there reading this thread. That is what we should take from this incident.

All this other stuff about timing and launch and letting go early or late is relevent, yes, it's specific to this incident yes, but the underlying problem, the underlying cause is someone not showing gravity the respect that it deserves.

Of course you're not going to like this. Of course you're going to get defensive, but that's the bottom line and all prospective and new jumpers reading this thread shouldn't be sidelined by the minutae of this incident but rather they should be encouraged to see the bigger issue of "respect" for an activity that DOES NOT ALLOW for the complacency or underestimation or miscalculation of deployment sequence or whatever the fuck you want to put it down to.

That is the point of my post and the point of me picking up on your mixed messages.

ian

Can you elaborate on this?

When practicing the launch for this jump (I've got some rather silly video of DexterBASE, KMonster and myself holding hands for 20 minutes), we were able to sort out a launch with almost identical forward momentum.

Since a rollover ought to be launched hard forward to maintain line tension, all that is really required is that the outside (packed) jumpers launch in line with the rollover jumper (perhaps slighly flatter than they normally would).

For extra safety margin, they can launch a split second early. In the case that they launch too early, they are extracted via PCA, and the possible downside is only that they may pull the rollover jumper into a McJJ (step through, no rollover) in which he is forced to land a step through (fairly easy to do).

How to check if you have determined the root cause of a failure:

-repeat the process while changing what you believe to be the root cause.

If this has the effect of switching the failure on and off, you have determined the root cause.


Now, you say that exit timing was not the root cause.

How would your jump have played out if you exited later and stayed level or above the twins?

How similar would it have been if you exited earlier?


What would you say was the root cause?

To all,

I won't repeat myself over and over again.

Tom and I are in disagreement about the technicality of the jump. I think there are "safer" variations to ensure the same launch-momentum (already discussed).

Sam, I have already posted all the answers to your questions, please don't get silly on this.

Ian, again you are not adding anything to the discussion.

I won't add any more posts , please PM me if you so desire.

I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that. Could you repeat it?
Thanks

I would have no problem at all putting my pilot chute in Nick's hands again.

We had done the jump once previously, had noticed that there were exit timing issues, and incorrectly assumed this was the root cause of the freefall problems. We did the jump a second time in order to sort out the exit timing issues. It turned out they weren't the only problem on the first jump.

All three jumpers would have been more than capable of matching momentum for the launch if we had realized the problems on the first jump went beyond exit timing. I want to make this very clear. I think it's important to realize this jump went badly not because of a mistake made during the jump, but because of a mistake made before the jump, namely, in our analysis of the preceding jump.

I've seen a lot of post-jump analysis in the forums degenerate into a mess of minute details and finger-pointing which I will never recall at the exit point. I have learned three things from this jump which will probably be foremost on my mind in any jump I plan in the future. They are:

1. The importance of stability at pull time.
2. The importance of an in-sequence deployment.
3. The importance of matching timing and momentum on linked multi-ways.

They say last learned is first remembered. I'd hate for this incident to be chalked up in someone's mind to insufficient skill or some personal grudge, rather than three simple and objective errors.

Thanks guys,

Michael

4. The importance of jumping when conditions are right

3 very good points

I have to agree with skreamer about point 4 and with you about the simple errors.

How is your bro doing?

cya
sam

Hi all,

Jason is doing well. He's been transfered back to Calgary. They've removed the second chest tube, so he's just got the cannula with a minimal amount of oxygen flowing. They're restricting him to bed for the moment, while the neurosurgeons at home have a look at a second round of scans to double-check that things are okay. His breathing is doing very well, and it looks like he'll be released from hospital in the next few days.

I finally had a chance to look at video of the incident. That's been difficult for me, and has brought back to the surface a lot of hard questions I was asking myself the night of the incident. It's difficult to make sense of it all, but it's important to me that I not look away from the questions, and somehow find honest answers that I can live with.

Along these lines, I'm going to add something to the points raised above. Looking at the video, it's easy to see that the conditions certainly aren't ideal. I imagine this is why so many people have brought that point up in this thread. However, it seems to me that the admittedly marginal conditions, and indeed probably the other three points I have raised, while very good lessons to take away from the jump, are not actually the root cause of this incident, but are rather symptoms of the root cause.

A few of you have pointed out that the jump seemed rushed and poorly planned. That's a hard one for me to recconcile. Certainly I had some reservations about the jump, but I chalked these up to the technical difficulty of the jump. Perhaps, in reality, these were warning signs that we were moving too quickly. At the time I did not see that. I still believe all three jumpers involved were up to the technical challenge, but had we allowed more time for the plan to develop, we might have recognized the importance of matching exit velocity as well as timing.

The scary part about this particular lesson is that I'm not sure I could have learned it any other way. I could post until my fingers bleed about the importance of slowing down, but it's unlikely to deter the adventurous jumper who thinks that feeling in the pit of his stomach is the result of technical challenge, and not poor planning. After all, he's not rushing things, it's just that the jump is demanding.

There are, of course, well-planned technically challenging jumps. How can we explain the difference to jumpers who have not experienced it first hand?

I can't begin to express how fortunate I feel that Jason survived the jump. That he will walk away from it with so few and slight permanent injuries is more than it would be reasonable to ask for.

Take care,

Michael