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WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
4/24/2006:

I have it on good authority that there were three arrests made at BCOG in the last 24 hours.

Advising to lay low on it for awhile, and any out of towners to Colorado planning on coming here to jump contact CO locals to get more information before you plan any extra-curricular jumps around the state.

The jumpers in question are all very experienced, technical jumpers all of whom have solid BASE ethics, and more than enough skill and knowledge to have pulled the mission off. All have multiple jumps from the object, and they used the method currently accepted as the most responsible, "leave no trace" method (sunrise exit), using additional ground crew as well.

All rigs were confiscated pending further notice. Word from "the man" is that they're "after BASE jumpers this year with a vengeance", due to some less-than-good judgement exercised by (ummm, large?) groups of jumpers near the end of the '05 season. I'll put it this way; the word "swarm" was used when describing the arrest by one of the jumpers.

Please stay away from this (and any surrounding) cliffs until further notice. Info will be posted as it becomes available.

Easy on the questions--I'm just the messenger.
pope
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Re: [pope] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
I've cleaned up this thread. Let's keep the random banter out of the serious topics, please.

Thanks!
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Re: [pope] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
This is really not my business except that I have interest in the state of our local objects, and that good people just got the shaft when they shouldn't have.

From what I've heard it seems like the large groups earlier in the year left quite a trace and that the trace they left angered the rangers and motivated them to start making arrests.

It's a shame when a few idiots stuck in the moment ruin the good things enjoyed by the rest... and in this case it seems that the more responsible jumpers walked into a mess left by the previous jumpers.

I'm not yet warming the tar, but it certainly sounds like we should all at least have a good long talk about this!

Any members from the group before the busts care to tell your side of the story?
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Re: [pope] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
It's not a secret who got caught in BCNP. It was me, Marta and Jay E. The reason that I post this is to let anyone thinking about jumping here to think twice and in comparison to other NP's, to show the professionalism of the Rangers who we dealt with. I wish that the other NP rangers would lighten up and realize that they are just doing their job and we are just doing ours. Here's the story:
Our jump was at first light, the Black has a new climbing ranger, he saw the permit filed for backcountry access, got his binoculars out and saw us coming up the SOB gully with packs on. There had been alot of activity in the Canyon while the park was closed this Winter/Spring and one group of jumpers even left a tyrolian traverse across the river, they were not impressed with this apparent lack of respect for the canyon, leave no trace and all. Someone else filled out a backcountry permit while the park was closed and put Jack Meoff as the permit holder and wrote at the bottom NPS sucks. They blamed jumpers for this, the jumpers who left the tyrolean said they wouldn't do this, so this sounds like a coincidence that jumpers got blamed for, I sure hope so. Anyway, I was first up the gully and saw the NPS truck parked at the top of the trailhead on the road. I hid my stashbag in the trees and came up the trail like it was no big deal. When he saw me, he started to back the truck up and tried to hide behind some bushes. I knew then that he wanted to talk to me. I continued up to him like it was no big deal, I was just out for an early morning hike. He was a younger guy and I said "wow" I can't believe those guys climb those walls. He said, yeah, what else? I said, "yup", not wanting to say any more than I had to. He said, with a knowing smile, "where's your pack that you were hiking up the gulley with?" I knew at this point it was hopeless to argue and would only make matters worse if I tried to lie. There's one way out of the canyon and one road into and out of the park. I knew that I had to produce a pack and the only one I could produce had a parachute in it. I told him that we had jumped and how about letting us go? He said that was up to his superior who was on the way. Bummer. Three more Rangers showed up and there was one younger guy who seemed to be taking the whole thing personally and really wanted me to have an atitude so he could pull his pistol and shoot me, at least in the leg so I couldn't get away. There was a girl Ranger with him who was totally cool and not upset at all. She defused the whole situation with her cool attitude. Then the head Ranger showed up and he was totally cool too. They seemed to really appreciate the fact that I just told the truth and wasn't trying to make up a big story that they wouldn't have believed anyway, due to the climbing ranger seeing three of us coming up the gulley with packs. The head Ranger was completely professional and had about 40 jumps in the Army. We joked around a bit and asked him what he thought about what Abe Lincoln had said, "The Truth shall set you free"? He said, not this time. Marta and Jay showed up with their stash bags, I had called them on the radio, letting them know just to bring their packs up, we were seen with them coming up the gullley. The head ranger wrote up the tickets and said to appear in Grand Junction on the date that would be assigned to us via mail. Now this is the cool part: He let us keep our cameras, helmets, shin guards and wingsuits. All he wanted was insurance that we would show up in court. He wasn't trying to be "The Man and keep us down" and all that. So yeah, we did it and although it shouldn't be illegal, for now it is, so we will show up in court and hopefully the judge will hug us and say that of course it shouldn't be illegal, you are citizens of this country and these parks are yours to enjoy. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is one of the most famous phrases in the United States Declaration of Independence. It is listed as one of the "unalienable rights" of man and woman.
Jimmy
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Re: [jimmyp] keep the wingsuits
Hello,
So, how were the flights?
God bless you.
Avery.
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Re: [badenhop] keep the wingsuits
All flights were unbelievable, this place should be legal.
JP
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Re: [jimmyp] keep the wingsuits
man, total bummer. thanks for the update and good luck in court.
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Re: [jimmyp] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
Jimmy mate, sounds like the young guy with the itchy trigger finger needed you to tell him the story about the time when you destroyed your parents Mercedes. Or at least the time you tied your tent to the wheel of your car and then drove into town to get supplies. That might have made him feel a little less threatened by you.Laugh
Sorry to hear it though. I've always wanted that one.
Chin up mate I'll see you soon.
Matt
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Re: [jimmyp] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
It was brought to my attention that it wasn't Abe Lincoln that said the truth shall set you free, it was Jesus. They both had beards, give me a break, for Christ's sake!
JP
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Re: [jimmyp] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
In reply to:
It was brought to my attention that it wasn't Abe Lincoln that said the truth shall set you free, it was Jesus. They both had beards, give me a break...

Bwahuahuahua... Laugh

In reply to:
...for Christ's sake!

That just makes it even better.
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Re: [jimmyp] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
>>I said, "yup", not wanting to say any more than I
>> had to. He said, with a knowing smile, "where's
>> your pack that you were hiking up the gulley with?"
>>I knew at this point it was hopeless to argue and would
>>only make matters worse if I tried to lie.

You were partially right. Lying is stupid. But saying ANYTHING is stupid. You had no gear on you, and nobody saw your face when you jumped. They really had nothing on you at this point. Think about OJ. Yet you saw a cop and got scared out of your mind, and spilled your guts. You got charged with air delivery, right? So how could it have been any worse?

It is so frustrating to see how stupid people are about this. The government has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you jumped. When you admit to doing it and give them the evidence, how hard is it going to be for them? If you had said NOTHING at all, not one word except maybe to identify yourself if asked, they would have a much tougher time proving you did anything.

People have this stupid preconceived notion that if they are nice to the cops then they might be let go. That might be so, but it is damn rare if it is. But if you give them nothing to use against you, you win whether there was a chance they would let you go or not.

I try to get this across to base jumpers all the time and they still can't seem to muster the courage to do it. How can you have the balls to jump from a fixed object but not have the guts to just shut the fuck up when someone wearing a uniform asks you stupid questions? If some crackhead off the street started pestering you, you would tell them to fuck off. A cop is no different. You don't owe them any more answer than you owe a random homeless beggar.


>> There's one way out of the canyon and one road
>>into and out of the park. I knew that I had to
>>produce a pack and the only one I could produce
>>had a parachute in it.

The burden is on the government to produce that evidence, not on you.

>>Three more Rangers showed up and there was one
>>younger guy who seemed to be taking the whole
>>thing personally and really wanted me to have an
>>atitude so he could pull his pistol and shoot me, at
>>least in the leg so I couldn't get away. There was a
>>girl Ranger with him who was totally cool and not
>>upset at all. She defused the whole situation with
>>her cool attitude. Then the head Ranger showed up
>>and he was totally cool too.

Cops are trained in this. They are experts in manipulating people. Check out the movie Tango & Cash for some good cop/bad cop.

If you cooperate with them, not by answering any questions but by standing where they want you to and not resisting, they probably won't shoot you.

Also, don't consent to a search of any of your belongings or your person. Do not resist, but don't give consent. When they say something like, "Why can't we search it, do you have something to hide?", just repeat that you do not give consent. You don't have to answer that stupid question either.

>>They seemed to really appreciate the fact that I just
>>told the truth and wasn't trying to make up a big
>>story that they wouldn't have believed anyway, due
>>to the climbing ranger seeing three of us coming up
>>the gulley with packs.

Aren't you happy they appreciated you? Of course they are glad you gave it up and they didn't have to look like idiots. Imagine how stupid the cops would look if they sat there begging you to admit jumping and tell them where the gear was. There is no need to make up a story, and any story you give them will likely give probable cause to arrest you. So don't say anything.

>>Marta and Jay showed up with their stash bags, I
>>had called them on the radio, letting them know
>>just to bring their packs up, we were seen with them
>>coming up the gullley.

How do you feel about ratting your friends out? I am to the point I would rather just jump by myself because you can't trust your friends not to cave in to cop pressure and turn you in.

>>The head ranger wrote up the tickets and said to
>>appear in Grand Junction on the date that would be
>>assigned to us via mail. Now this is the cool part:
>>He let us keep our cameras, helmets, shin guards
>>and wingsuits.

You get ALL your gear back if you win. You have no chance of winning now and will pay a huge fine.

>>The reason that I post this is to let anyone thinking
>>about jumping here to think twice and in
>>comparison to other NP's, to show the
>>professionalism of the Rangers who we dealt with.

It appears that the difference between these rangers and those at the other park is that they let you keep some gear and didn't throw you in jail for a night or two. To me this difference does not justify paying that massive fine, being on probation for a year, and possibly not getting the rest of the gear back. If you had not given them probable cause to arrest you in the first place, then the difference in rangers means nothing.

I know this post is very harsh and I feel really bad for the people busted. I just hope to make an impression on anyone else that might read this so they might make better decisions if they end up in the same situation. Just like anything, the key is to practice. Have some buddies play good cop/bad cop on you. Imagine how you are going to act when cops are threatening you. By the way, cops are allowed to lie about most things as part of an interrogation...

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Speak to a lawyer who is licensed to practice in your state (or in fed court as is the case here).
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Post deleted by lifewithoutanet
 
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say, can and will be used against you."
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Post deleted by lifewithoutanet
 
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
Also remember that some of the folks (well, more like all of them) involved in this situation are likely to meet again during the planning phase of this parks management policy. When that happens, and they discuss legal jumps and permitting, it's going to help a lot if the chief ranger (who is likely to be there) remembers them as "hey, those were the mature, professional guys" rather than "those were the guys who kept playing hard ass, and made me waste a bunch of my time."

In this sense, Jimmy, Marta and Jay have really stepped up to take one for the team, accepting a bust for themselves, but retaining some credibility as responsible, professional representatives to negotiate for the rest of us.
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Re: [TomAiello] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
This suggests that you think by exercising your right to remain silent and not to incriminate yourself is somehow unprofessional. I couldn't disagree more. You do not have to be a jerk about it, but you do not HAVE to say anything. If you DO say anything, DO NOT LIE. But you can politely decline to answer their questions. If they get abusive, all the more reason NOT to say anything. And if they question you about any illegal or potentially illegal conduct, you can tell them you would like to speak with your lawyer before answering any questions. At that point, they are required to cease questioning you until you have counsel or until you tell them you are willing to talk without counsel. Again, you don't have to be a jerk about it. It IS possible to politely inform them that you do not want to talk about such matters without your lawyer present. That IS one of your rights in this country, and you should NEVER feel bad about asserting your rights.
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
I am not going to debate every uneducated comment that comes up on this forum, but some of these deserve a response.

Exercising your constitutional rights is not attempting to gain the upper hand over a cop or playing hard ass. You can't outsmart them at their game no matter how smart you think you are. The best plan is to shut up. I didn't suggest being confrontational. In case I wasn't clear in the other post, NEVER confront a cop or refuse to comply with their orders. They can, and will, beat you down. That has nothing to do with giving no answer to questions, or asking for a lawyer, or saying no when asked for consent to search.

The air delivery law charged here has been around for decades. It has held up in the ninth circuit, and the US Supreme Court denied certiorari (refused to hear the appeal). Notice that nobody is being charged with that new federal base jumping law? There is no reason for them to risk charging something new that has not yet withstood appellate review when the old one has.

It doesn't matter how many laws they make. As long as you don't make incriminating statements, consent to searches, or give up evidence in some other way (like showing them where you hid the gear) you have the best chance of avoiding prosecution, hefty fines, probation, and a criminal record.

lifewithoutanet, you have been reading too many comic books. Where do you get this battle/war nonsense? I don't see you offering to pay anyone's fines.

I guess Tom dropped out before he took Crim. Pro.

Go sit in at an arraignment or early resolution hearing (where you accept a plea bargain), it is open to the public. You will see that even the judge will explain your basic rights to you in case your lawyer forgot! Nobody but a cop will look down on someone for exercising those rights. Who cares what a cop thinks?

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

(This board software apparently condenses a double-space after a period into one space.)
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Re: [TomAiello] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
You think "Sssss" and "jonege" are one and the same...? Tongue
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Re: [pBASEtobe] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
We are not, but I absolutely agree with him/her, and despite the disclaimer at the end of his/her posts, I suspect he/she IS a lawyer, or at least has a significant amount of formal legal education. I AM a lawyer, and although I do not practice criminal law, many of my colleagues do, and they would ALL tell you the same thing Sssss has said. You almost NEVER do yourself any favors by bearing your soul to the cops. You NEVER do yourself any favors by being an ass to them, either, but you do not have to, and generally SHOULD not, confess your sins to them. Oh, and by the way, I do not represent you or anyone else on this forum, and neither this post, nor my prior posts in this or any other thread on this or any other forum constitute legal advice. You should not rely on anything you read on the internet and should consult an attorney licensed in your state with respect to any legal questions you may have.
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[so telling the truth is Ssssstupid?]
Hello,
You seem to be quite the legal eagle.
Is there anything morally wrong with being truthful?
God bless you,
Avery
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Re: [jonege] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
In reply to:
...they would ALL tell you the same thing Sssss has said. You almost NEVER do yourself any favors by bearing your soul to the cops.

I wasn't thinking about legal ramifications, or what happens in court. I was thinking about what happens in backroom negotiations and committee meetings.

In those cases, you might be better off to consult a lobbyist and a political spinner than to consult a lawyer. If your goal is just to get off, that's one thing. If your goal is to maintain the ability to effectively represent and negotiate in future processes, that's potentially an entirely different thing.
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Re: [pBASEtobe] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
In reply to:
You think "Sssss" and "jonege" are one and the same...? Tongue

Not unless he can fly halfway across the US just to mess with folks on this forum.
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Re: [Sssss] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
Hey,
I think Jimmy, Marta and Jay took one for the team. Deffinately.
However,
I believe Sssss is offering the best advice as far as avoiding Arrest, prosecution,Fines.....
I've had a fair amount of run-ins with "the Man" and found that being polite but firm is the best response to interogation.
Untill you are in handcuffs you are just having a friendly chat, and you don't have to answer their questions, and as far as lying to them goes....
I would say I've done nothing wrong when asked if I had just made a BASE jump, and I bet that answer would even pass a polygraph because it's damned well the truth.
If they continue to Question you simply ask; "am I under arrest?" if they say no..."am I free to go" if yes...."I am invoking my fifth amendment rights." That's that.
Becides, if your gear is stashed, would you rather. it be in a bush or an evidence locker?
~J
PS: I might get around to writing more about how I feel about this article I read but untill then... I was reading the SF Chronicle and there was a front page article titled "Cutbacks Squeeze National Parks" it was continued on the entire back page,. It got me thinking.
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Re: [FIREFLYR] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
Clicky

In reply to:
"Cutbacks Squeeze National Parks"
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Re: [TomAiello] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
Jimmy,
Is this the first case of someone being busted at the BCOG ? Isn't Tom Tancredo, CO congressman on our side? The BCOG would be the perfect place for legal jumps, I wonder how many people actually go down into the canyon, climbers and hikers each season to view this spectacular work of nature ? Let us know how it turns out.

BASE jumping is not a crime.
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Re: [TomAiello] WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling
CUTBACKS SQUEEZE NATIONAL PARKS
Officials count on volunteers, service reductions as costs rise
Zachary Coile, Chronicle Washington Bureau

Monday, May 1, 2006

Washington -- Over the last decade, more people are visiting the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, and the park has grown by thousands of acres, from the recently restored Crissy Field to the addition last year of one of San Mateo County's largest undeveloped tracts of land.

But during the same 10 years, the Bay Area's popular national park has cut its staff by 30 full-time employees. Facing flat budgets from the federal government and rising costs, park managers have been forced to rely on volunteers and outside groups to avoid reducing public access.

Park officials say resources are stretched so tightly they are having trouble keeping up with basic services, such as picking up trash at Crissy Field or providing regular patrols of the newly acquired lands near Devil's Slide.

"You can only stretch the rubber band so far," said Brian O'Neill, the park's superintendent. "There is no question that we can't continue to endure cutbacks without commensurate cutbacks in services and our ability to be stewards of these places."

The story is the same -- and, in some cases, worse -- at the National Park Service's other 389 parks, preserves, seashores and historic sites across the country, where superintendents are making painful choices: cutting seasonal and full-time staff, closing visitor centers and reducing interpretive programs.

Though the Bush administration has supported modest spending increases for the national parks in recent years, they have barely kept pace with inflation. Meanwhile, operating costs continue to rise each year, forcing park managers to cut services or find volunteers willing to provide them for free.

A General Accountability Office report released last month, which examined 12 of the most heavily visited national parks, found that park officials have made difficult decisions in light of their money woes, including:

-- Closing the visitor center at the southern end of Shenandoah National Park in Virginia.

-- Shutting down winter use of seven restrooms along roads and trailheads in Acadia National Park in Maine.

-- Reducing backcountry patrols in Utah's Bryce Canyon National Park.

-- Cutting interpretive programs at Grand Canyon National Park from 35 in 2001 to 23 in 2005.

-- Shortening a visitor center's operating hours and cutting naturalist programs and Indian art tours at Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming.

The Park Service has fared better than many other domestic agencies as the Bush administration, struggling with rising budget deficits and a war in Iraq costing $10 billion a month, has tried to reduce spending unrelated to defense and homeland security programs. But any cuts in services at the national parks -- which have more than 450 million visitors each year -- are more likely to be felt directly by the public.

Top administration officials took issue with the GAO report, saying it was overly pessimistic and failed to emphasize that the Park Service's budget had climbed from $1.4 billion in 2001 to $1.7 billion in 2005.

"Record high levels of funding are being invested to staff and improve our parks," Matthew Hogan, the Interior Department's acting assistant secretary for fish, wildlife and parks, wrote in an official response to the report. "Over time, the national parks have received significantly more funding increases than most nondefense government programs."

But the GAO investigators said the overall funding increase for the Park Service was somewhat misleading.

Congress boosted funding to help reduce the backlog of delayed maintenance at the parks -- a priority that President Bush campaigned on in 2000 -- between 2001 and 2005 by 4 percent annually in inflation-adjusted dollars. But the amount the agency was given for daily operations at the parks actually fell slightly in inflation-adjusted dollars, by 0.3 percent.

Without sufficient daily operating funds, park officials have been unable to keep pace with steadily rising costs -- especially employee salaries and benefits, but also utilities and fuel for vehicles -- forcing them to make cuts.

"Officials at the park units we visited stated that they absorbed these additional costs by reducing spending on personnel and other expenditures," the GAO report said. "Park officials also told us that they reduced services including reducing visitor center hours, educational programs, basic custodial duties and law enforcement operations, such as back-country patrolling."

Sequoia and Kings Canyon national parks, known for their groves of giant sequoia redwood trees, delayed the opening of the Lodgepole visitor center by 5 weeks -- until next Monday -- to save money.

The two parks have trimmed staff, cutting one full-time ranger and three seasonal rangers in the interpretative division. Instead they have added volunteers from the Student Conservation Association to keep a presence at spots like the General Sherman Tree, the world's largest tree by volume.

"Those are the trade-offs that we have to make," said William Tweed, the chief park naturalist. "We are trying very hard to provide visitors services, but we are providing less than we were providing a decade ago."

At Yosemite National Park, which drew more than 3.4 million visitors last year, park officials estimate they have reduced their full-time staff by 5 to 7 percent, and their seasonal staff by 20 to 25 percent over the last five years.

As the number of park rangers has fallen, Yosemite's managers have asked volunteers to help out. On a typical summer evening, only one out of five interpretative programs is conducted by a park ranger. The others are run by volunteers, friend-of-the-park groups and Yosemite's private concessionaire, Delaware North.

"They see the erosion in the operating budget," said Scott Gediman, a park spokesman. "We sit down at the table with them and we say, 'We don't want to cut these services,' and we say, 'Can you help us do that?' "

Parks across the country have found similar savings by enlisting volunteers to perform tasks that rangers used to do. Retirees collect fees at campgrounds, friend-of-the-park groups run historic sites and maintain trails, volunteers and employees at park bookstores hand out maps and answer questions from visitors.

The Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area near Los Angeles has had a hiring freeze for the last four years, forcing the park to rely on retired schoolteachers to lead education programs and to seek state grants to pay for other programs.

"People are still having a good experience and a quality experience, but clearly they are going to see fewer rangers as we direct our efforts to coaching volunteers and building partnerships to deliver services," said Woody Smeck, the park's superintendent.

But park managers admit there are limits to what volunteers and friend-of-the-park groups can do. Officials with the Golden Gate National Recreation Area -- which includes sites such as Alcatraz, Fort Mason, the Marin Headlands and Muir Woods -- have been asking volunteers and nonprofit partners to perform more basic services, from running interpretative programs to protecting natural resources.

"They are asking the really basic question, 'What is government providing?' " O'Neill said. "They are saying, 'I want to create a margin of excellence, but I don't want to be a substitute for what should be a basic function of government.' "

Within the agency, park officials are preparing for more cuts. The Bush administration is proposing to cut $100 million from the agency's budget next year, although Congress may seek to restore the money.

Rep. Steve Pearce, R-N.M., who chairs the House Resources subcommittee that oversees national parks, said the parks should not be asking Congress for more money, but should focus on reforming their business practices to spend their money more wisely.

"Of course, every agency says they need more money to do their job ... it's not unusual," Pearce said. "But the management of the parks over the past 10 or 20 years has allocated up to 90 percent of their budgets on salaries -- and that's not a very positive position to put yourself in."

Most parks already have crafted business plans to become more efficient. Many parks are now undergoing a process called "core operations analysis" with the goal of bringing fixed costs -- especially personnel -- under 80 percent of their budget. But some fear it could be used to pave the way for even deeper staff cutbacks.

"We would hope that core operations analysis would be used to help justify the true needs in the parks," said Blake Selzer, legislative director of the National Parks Conservation Association, which supports increased funding of the parks. "It should not be used as a justification for insufficient budgets or as a justification to cut appropriations."

A bipartisan group of 105 House members signed a letter warning that the proposed cuts to the parks budget "will undoubtedly lead to additional reductions in resource protection and visitor services, and further increases in visitor fees."

Thirty-two senators signed a similar letter urging Congress to "address the significant operating shortfall plaguing our national parks."

E-mail Zachary Coile at zcoile@sfchronicle.com.