Basejumper.com - archive

Well I made my first jump from an A last night. 490ft hand held about a 2 sec.delay. It was my first jump on new gear. I opened with a 90 degree right and got on my left riser right away but it was too late. I hit the wire and my canopy wrapped around it ans started sliding down. A second later I was flying free towards the landing zone. I got lucky.
First jump from an A
First jump on new gear
First wire strike
I owe three cases of beer.

Eric

First off, as I saw another jumper say in a post, "You don't owe beer. That’s skydiving shit."

What were the weather conditions? Wind speed? Direction in reference to the guy wires.

Coco

It was a cross wind jump. I started off jumping in the right direction but backed off from the launch I was supposed to jump from and when I stepped back I inadvertantly jumped about 45 degrees to the right . the wind was coming from the left of me.

Did you tune your brake settings?


How strong?

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You only got on One Rear Riser ? The Left ?
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Is that a posh way of saying you fell off ?:)

Im glad you are not hurt and you can smile about it.

Crosswind as in down the wire, or crosswind as in 90-degrees off your intended exit heading?

What were you doing jumping an antenna on new gear, with five BASE jumps, in a crosswind?

Who were you with? Did you ever think, "hmmm.... this may be a bad idea...."

Crosswind at exit usually means wind through the wires. You could turn around and jump the other side where the wind will be blowing 30 degrees off the wires. That would be better.Why would you jump into a sector with a crosswind?

Winds were less than 5mph.
I got on my left riser because I turned to the right. After I hit the wire I pulled both front risers down in an attempt to dive away from the wire, which luckily worked. I backed away from the launch becaus I was freaking out. It took about 15min. to convince myself to jump.

 

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This Is a EASY & FORGIVING OBJECT ! It does not get much nicer than this.
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..."I got on my left riser because I turned to the right."
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OK forget all the wind direction stuff right now. Or the way you front riser dived off the Wire. This BASE Jump, a 3-wire Antenna jump with no-slider is one the easyiest and one of the safer BASE jumps you are going to do. Yet you still managed to fuck it up. If this a sincere and real post. It is clear that no one is giving you proper basic Canopy recovery technique for BASE object strike avoidance in an off heading problem. Dealing with the off heading on a No-Slider jump with ONLY a single rear Riser grab. Man you need to get the proper help to lay down the technique that will keep you alive. You Don't Turn a BASE Canopy in no-slider object avoidance like you are steering a car away from hitting the Ditch.
I am not going to get into this anymore and give Canopy Technique advice like I have to others that Did Not know how to handle off headings because I am just getting really fucking Tired of it.
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I'm confused too...
what part of your canopy hit the wire?? If you hit the wire and then started to slide down it how would doing double front risers clear the situation? Did you hit the wire going backwards? Did the canopy collapse and then as it let you free you front risered it thinking that cleared the entanglement?
Why didn't you just back down from the jump if you were 'freaking out'? If you cannot get your head straight you should not be jumping...period!

Do you really want to die from this sport? If not please use a little more caution and VALUE your LIFE more than a measly jump.

I also agree with the crosswind thing... if it was a crosswind exit you would have been correct in going off the other side...basic common sense.

play safe
Jason
570

Glad you're ok, were you alone? Ground crew? Big 'ol slice of humble pie, huh? You know to get your gear TOTALY INSPECTED, right? Wire damage can get pretty severe, some of it the "average" parachute user will not detect until it fails. Getting off the wire is awesome! No damage to you?

1st off a guyed A, new gear, low jump #s, cross winds??

sounds like a recipe for disaster.

i hope you were drunk. because the only real excuses to hit a guy wire are being drunk and inexperienced, or celebrating your birthday.

also, who the hell freefalls handheld from 500ft for ONLY 2 seconds?

you'd have been safer to jump from lower. IMO of course.

\
He's right, you owe a bag of cocaine, a hand full of mushrooms and a fifth of whisky.
~J

No Pot?!?! WTF!

Only if he's a muff bro..............

I can see why some are confused. We were jumping off an ice shield which might paint a better picture. If I knew how to draw a pic and attach it I would, but I don't. As far as it being a crosswind jump, that was'st exactly true. I wasn't jumping directly with the wind, it was probably 10-15 degrees off. I used my front risers after the canopy cleared because it wasn't the quickest way to get away from the wire. As I stated earlier I was jumping with an experienced. I have practiced avoidance drills dozens of times. I took a FJC last ear so I do know a few things about jumping. The people that jump to conclusions about me or bring my ability into question do nothave a right to do so. You don't know me and you weren't there. You don't know what happened.

Eric

Well, a few of us do know a thing or two about BASE jumping. It's pretty easy to figure out what's going on when somebody posts about an incident they had.




New jumper: "I went out last night and (this) happened."

Experienced jumpers: "Well, tell us what the conditions were and give us an idea of your experience level."

New jumper: "Well, conditions were bad and I'm totally new to this."

Experienced jumpers: "Well, we would have been expecting that to happen but because you weren't with somebody who could have told you what to look out for, you had to learn firsthand."

New jumper: "None of you were there. You don't know what happened."



You don't think the rest of us have watched or experienced what you just described? We might not have been on that particular jump with you, but between all of the experienced jumpers here, we've seen a few BASE jumps go wrong so we might just have an idea.

no offense... but what did you expect??

Dozens? On what BASE jumps? Your profile only mentions five previous BASE jumps. And as I have asked above; did you tune your brake settings for the brand new canopy?

I'm trying not to judge. I got hit in the face with a cliff just a few weeks ago so I'm no better jumper than you are. The reason I want to know these things is because they mean the difference between freak incidents and rationally explicable and predicable events.

If you had tuned your brake settings to minimize forward speed on opening, done thirty obstacle avoidance drills at the Perrine (and could show me video of your last three ones), jumped in zero winds, and had a stable exit; then the only conclusion is a freak incident. If on the other hand you skipped most of these steps and let your enthusiasm get the better of you, then we can understand the chain of events that ultimately led to this outcome.

The only thing that allows me to be in this sport is a chance to avoid the mistakes that others have made. If I don't know what mistakes they are, I can't even try.

Hey Eric, bring your 3 cases of beer to the Iron Manship base comp and tell your war story there. I would be happy to hear more about it.Until then be safe and get your gear checked out, Pete.

hey, ericthemillionare & Pete S. It was not his/the gear that is the problem.
The problem is he does not know the proper was to Turn a BASE Canopy with an undesirable heading after opening. Fuck he DID NOT Even Have a 180.
The problem was a SIMPLE 90 deg. opening. Christ how fucking easy could it be. All he had to do was reach up and grab both rear risers and yard down till he SLOW the fucking forward momentum a Little. Then let off an turn his Heading away from the wire.
This has NOTHING to do with Brake Settings or Wind or any of the other speculative Shit that everyone saying. The mother fucker has no business up on a Antenna if he has NO Idea what he is doing.
READ WHAT THE FUCK HE IS WRITING.
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ericmillionaire:
I can see why some are confused. We were jumping off an ice shield which might paint a better picture. If I knew how to draw a pic and attach it I would, but I don't. As far as it being a crosswind jump, that was'st exactly true. I wasn't jumping directly with the wind, it was probably 10-15 degrees off. I used my front risers after the canopy cleared because it wasn't the quickest way to get away from the wire. As I stated earlier I was jumping with an experienced. I have practiced avoidance drills dozens of times. I took a FJC last ear so I do know a few things about jumping. The people that jump to conclusions about me or bring my ability into question do nothave a right to do so. You don't know me and you weren't there. You don't know what happened.
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The wind was blowing OFF THE WIRE. (not down the wire) . (not across the wire) . It Was Blowing AWAY FROM THE WIRE. It was not even directing the flight heading of his canopy toward the wire. He was not Taught or ever taught the proper way to handle a BASE canopy. He has be practicing (dozens of times) Avoidance Drills, The WRONG WAY. He took and FJC last year that taught him how to flop off a fucking bridge and land a BASE canopy on a football size landing area. This is fucking pathetic.
ericthemillionare throws up this BASE fuckup on a Thread and is looking for ACCEPTANCE ?. He will get no fucking Acceptance of BASE proficiency or sympathy from me. Till he learns the VERY BASICS of survival. The simple turning of BASE canopy a few degrees away from the wire. With 490 foot exit and only a 2-second delay. This is the simplest and MINIMUM REQUIREMENT that is expected from him as a BASE jumper . He could not even do it.
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Ray,

I cannot understand what you are trying to say! And it sounds like it might be some useful info...

---edited to add---
Your last post was much clearer, thank you!

I have to agree with Ray. This should have been a simple heading correction, regardless if his DBS was fine tuned or not.

It's quite amazing to see how people still stick out their necks and tell about jumps where things got bad, even though they know all they get back is a lot of shit.

WAY TO GO ERIC!!!

/Micke N
Team Bautasten

I would NEVER tell about my two strikes on this forum

What Ray means is that you need to use both risers to avoid hitting something. You need to accomplish three things:

1.) Slow or stop your forward movement. (Slow your closing rate with the object to give you more time to turn.)

2.) Turn the canopy so it's not on a course that intersects the object.

3.) Do not excessively consume vertical feet.

Slider down, usually a couple things are true:

1.) You didn't have much altitude to begin with.

2.) You will be opening in close proximity to the wall.

3.) If you need to jump slider down, there's a chance that your primary landing area (sometimes only real option) will cease to be an option if you consume an excessive amount of altitude getting the canopy turned around. This can put you in a position that could be serious.

So, I guess to summarize, you need to be familiar with how to effectively make that canopy stop, turn, and be able to do it rapidly, accurately, and efficiently.

That type of efficiency does not exist when a person has five BASE jumps. That type of flying cannot be learned from an aircraft either. A balloon, yes, but not an airplane. Flying a canopy immediately following a slider down opening is a beast unique to itself and can really only be trained by BASE jumping. A catch-22 that tends to work against people with no access to a forgivable object to train on.

Twin Falls is only $500-600 away from most American BASE jumpers. If you can crank out $3000 for a rig, $300 for a camera helmet, $1100 for the camera, $85 bucks for a PC, and still go out and get shit-faced a couple nights a week... you can afford to get your ass to TF and do some training jumps where you won't smack a wall unless you REALLY fuck something up.

Ray, I agree that things could have gone alot easier for this "pup" if he would have done his recovery with a little more pre-planning. Let's not turn him out until he answers a few more questions about say, a mentor being present. The guy is at a fork in the road in his base career right now. A guy here in CA went on a "I'm going solo, fuck all of you!" mission and has made a series of bad decisions and will pay the rest of his life for it. That's why I'm not being too harsh YET.

Nice work pulling through it. as Micke says..

its bard to belive how fast people blame others just like that..

Eric you showed some great balls posting this and i respect you for that.
You made your dessision to make the jump and the risk were ok to your point of weiv(now all you risk calcuating guys/gals out there think of that)

Eric if you drop by Denmark feel free to drop by my place ill happy take you out for a few jumps.

you dont owe beer to anyone but if you offer me one for no reasson ill take it

He was jumping with an expirenced jumper, off the local A that they jump all the time.

Let's be a little careful here. In the old days we all had our BASE accidents in relative obscurity and criticism, in general, was held in check or at least, didn’t raise itself to present levels. Of course it’s a different sport nowadays, but don’t make the mistake of thinking that because BASE knowledge is light years ahead of what it was that these accidents are always preventable. In a way Eric, or any newer jumper, will always have the same problems we’ve all had at that stage.

Sure, you can study the fatality list, you can hang around and listen to others, you can even follow all the good advice about training and gear, but the first few times you’re up there, with your mind buzzing, the anxiety pulling you to pieces, when you can’t hardly speak for lack of spit, is when all that good preparation and intentions can evaporate into the atmosphere. And then it’s just you and that thing you’re standing on.

BASE jumpers fresh from the skydiving side of things have no experience with that kind of freedom and responsibility. And not all people react to it the same way. It’s a thousand times easier to follow someone else out of an Otter than it is to convince yourself to step off a tower all alone. The insidious part is not many of us were natural BASE jumpers right off the bat, and the struggle to just step off is so tough all that book and classroom knowledge can sometimes mean little without the practical experience that makes it crystal clear. Sometimes I don’t know what’s worse, just winging it on instinct and guts, or having your head filled with knowledge that means little because you haven’t experienced the reality of BASE.

I know we are on the right track, with the BASE training now available, but we are nowhere close to being all the way there. The biggest mistake we can make right now is muzzling our young and making them afraid to expose their mistakes. There is no magic formula for BASE jumping and we are getting awfully close to a time when some of us can sound like the skydivers of old ripping up BASE jumpers.

With five BASE jumps or a thousand BASE jumps we are all more alike than we are different. The possibility of plaster, or worse than that, is always just one jump away for all. And with our most experienced brothers and sisters still under 2000 BASE jumps we risk losing sight of the fact that in no way do we have it knocked, in no way do any of us have all the answers, and in some cases some of us aren’t even asking the right questions.

Eric, like anyone else who dons a BASE rig, is my brother. And like any brother who is younger I may know more about things simply because I’ve been around longer.

But not that much more . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Nugget alerts:







Eric,

I'm glad your all right. All of us can have accidents, and sooner or later we all will.

It takes guts to share your experience with other people, and I salute your for that.

It takes smarts to learn from your experience, and I respect your for that.

Alright, finally, we have been waiting for you Nick.... Always get allot out of your posts.... Sooooo... you got that New laptop?........ I hope so ...You deserve it..

All the best Nick, Chris

ericthemillionare:
Winds were less than 5mph. I got on my left riser because I turned to the right. After I hit the wire I pulled both front risers down in an attempt to dive away from the wire, which luckily worked. I backed away from the launch becaus I was freaking out. It took about 15min. to convince myself to jump.
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It was a cross wind jump. I started off jumping in the right direction but backed off from the launch I was supposed to jump from and when I stepped back I inadvertantly jumped about 45 degrees to the right . the wind was coming from the left of me..
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I can see why some are confused. We were jumping off an ice shield which might paint a better picture. If I knew how to draw a pic and attach it I would, but I don't. As far as it being a crosswind jump, that was'st exactly true. I wasn't jumping directly with the wind, it was probably 10-15 degrees off. I used my front risers after the canopy cleared because it wasn't the quickest way to get away from the wire. As I stated earlier I was jumping with an experienced. I have practiced avoidance drills dozens of times. I took a FJC last ear so I do know a few things about jumping. The people that jump to conclusions about me or bring my ability into question do nothave a right to do so. You don't know me and you weren't there. You don't know what happened.
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I read all that clusterfuck of mixed up jump information offered and can SAY WITHOUT a Doubt. I Know what happened.
LOOK I'm not telling the guy to quite BASE jumping. He is at a cross road to say the least and needs to be set strait. The next thing he will be doing is going down to Moab to proudly get his big-E for the BASE #. When in fact He does Not Know what to do in a OFF Heading. He needs to re-evaluate his ( Canopy Technique ) in object avoidance.
Look read all his post. It's Clear His brain can not even Digest the entire base jump event. He was overloaded to say the least. He is totally Not able to asses the object, jump conditions and not able to articulate the Post BASE jump results. A packing lesson and Flop off the bridge FJC at a Idaho bridge and 5 BASE jumps is just not enough Knowledge to go forward and do an Antenna, Cliff or any other BASE object.
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But I really Don't CARE about ALL THE OTHER CRAP as much as I CARE about the fact that he does NOT KNOW how to properly turn a Canopy in a simple 90 deg. OFF HEADING. The only thing he did was grab the Left Riser and Pull to Turn Left. When in fact he should have been yarding down on both Rear Risers then letting-up on his Right Riser to Turn Left. This is the most Basic of BASE knowledge that SHOULD BE TAUGHT. All the other stuff is important but that is not what is pissing me off. The Fact is He Thinks he did everything RIGHT in the BASE jump Learning preparation.
He does NOT Need to STOP Posting his Jump Problems.
He Does Not need to Quit BASE jumping but He needs to stop BASE jumping right now and start over and learn How before continuing on the next level and get Banged-Up.

To all you Softies out there Sympathy-Patting him on the back because he's your fucking little BASE Brother, FACT IS - Me Hurting His little Feeling on the dz.com. in Canopy technique. Is NOTHING compared to the Hurt when he Slams into something under Canopy because he was not taught or did not digest the proper technique to avoid an object strike.
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I think he should have yanked a hard right toggle turn and swooped under the wire and around the tower.

That would have been really cool

Mike

glad you changed your mind.

This should NEVER be the conclusion.

It only becomes so when people don't know the real reason.

Everything that happens in BASE could be explained by physical and aerodynamic principles. Just because we (jumpers) cannot see the vital clues or do not have th experience to assess a situation or don't want to admit realities, it does not mean that there isn't a logical explanation.

Over time we have improved immensely on how to explain why things happen. More time will give more explanations. More video will allow for better analysis.

Gods, demons, and freaks are not the reasons for mishaps.

To ericmillionaire.

You are ssssooooooo ssssseeensssssstive (spoken with a gay lisp). People in these forums are harsh at the best of times. e.g


There are some idiots on forums, some that have a certain way with words (I love your directness Ray but you still gave the guy a chance to be accepted by your final comment), or some other psychological problem. They could also be well meaning but blunt, You get that way when you see your friends and colleagues dying doing stupid things. However, you should listen when some gives you advice that you may not necessarily want to hear. E.G - when several people say that you fucked up, it may be true. If you are not prepared to accept this. Your future in the sport is questionable at best. Hey, I am a very experienced and long term jumper. And I still stuff up. I have newbies telling me how to improve certain aspects of my BASE jumping. As much as I challenge people and make them feel uncomfortable, I also accept the possibility (or likelihood) that they may be right. This is great for personal development.


Beginners are terrible at estimating time when they are involved in the action, irrespective of whether they are spectators or participants. I know a bloke who did a floater off a bridge, had a 45 right, and hit the pylon on the next bridge. His comment was "that thing came up on me so fast, I had less than a second to deal with it. . . . .". The video showed 3.5 seconds which is heaps of time.


Therein lies a problem. People finish university degrees and no stuff all!!!!! A FJC is what is says - a FIRST JUMP course. They are not advanced skill courses. Do not kid yourself. You do know a FEW things about jumping after a FJC, but the reality is that you need to know a LOT OF THINGS about jumping to be able to consistantly and safely make jumps off a variety of objects in a variety of conditions. The sooner you learn and accept this, the better.

Another point about your riser control. You MUST be on BOTH rear risers for heading correction on EVERY jump early in your jump career. Your experienced mentor should have drilled that into you. You shouldn't jump objects with strike potential until you have this as an automated / second nature response. Once you get experienced, then you can decide toggles/risers/pockets/shoelaces or whatever else. As Ray so succintly puts it, this is a fuck up on your part. If you were not taught this, it was a mistake on the part of your mentors/instructors.

People who make mistakes in this sport NEED / MUST HAVE immediate / direct / honest / blunt feedback when mistakes occur. You do NOT want to keep making mistakes and having people pussy foot around you. You DO NOT want people to keep quiet because you are sensitive. A little reality is a lot better than a pile of blood and bones.


WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG

Only if you do not want to learn it. The aircraft environment is not perfect for learning the subtleties of BASE canopy flight, but you can/will become intimately involved with all aerodynamic characteristics of your chosen wing IF you make an effort to learn. Try this one. Take your canopy for an aircraft jump, deploy. Practice ALL your control inputs. Now shut the canopy down or just bring it as close as possible to the stall point (do this both before and after releasing your brakes), guess what? you are close to a DBS full inflation situation. Just like on a BASE jump. You can simulate MANY aspects of BASE jumping on skydives IF you are open to the possibility.

Yeah, it is not exactly the same as having gnarly rock 10 feet off your back, but it helps. DAMMIT, LISTEN TO ME. IT HELPS. If you want it to.

Then there are cutaways. then there are Mr Bills, then there are . . . . . . . . . .

OPEN YOUR MINDS TO THE POSSIBILITIES THAT ARE STARING AT YOU!!!!!!!


He is an adult, he made a stupid decision (by the sound of your comments). There are reams of information around saying what is good and bad. HE chose not to follow. I tried helping for many years. Now I only focus on those who really want help. I think you will find that even the bitter and twisted on the forums here will help those who want help. You can lead a horse to water . . .but you can't make him drink. You can give a BASE jumper as much help as he needs, but if he chooses not to take it. . . .whose decision is that??

Someone asked why eric jumped after he backed off for 15 minutes. This is normal human behaviour. I have done that on early jumps, and much later jumps. There comes a time when you should come down, but backing off is OK.

eric - it is up to you to show strength of character and a little humility as well. Accept that you made a mistake (you did hit a wire), and move on from it. It's great that you posted it as we can learn from it. Learn as much as you can. Talk to experienced people. Accept a bit of shit, give a little back. That is life. That is BASE jumping. It happens to even the best of them!!!!!


Well said. That is for Ray!!!

A few people get offended by Ray's bluntness on these forums. Here is my perspective (male BASE jumper)and opinion of Ray's posts.

Ray is OK. In some respects he purveys an image of a typical mid USA, red neck, right wing, American, but is OK nevertheless. He has a unique way with words which lacks political correctness and aristocracy. In many instances it is necessary.

A thing about Ray - he was a part of the Portland crowd. People like Dwain, Slim, Dr Nick, etc were his earlier jump buddies. That experience really shapes and changes your perspective on BASE jumping. And when you see people repeat known mistakes without making much effort to fix them, it is frustrating. Ray is trying to say to people to do it right and give themselves the best opportunity for survival. He (and many others) have seen too many new kids on the block blatantly ignore the hard earned experience of others and put themselves at unecessary risk.

I knew or have met many elements of the Portland crowd. Especially DW. I broke the news to his mum when he passed away. I have seen lots of blood and guts in my life, but telling a mother that her son had died is worse than ANYTHING else in the world.

Ray is tying to help. He does not want others to have to break the news to family and friends, especially when it is a cheap / wasted opportunity. He wants the sport and it's participants to survive, jump together, have fun, build skill, etc. Mistakes are OK, but when they are borne of laziness, arrogance, blatant ignorance, etc, they are wasted opportunities.

He's just not very subtle about it, that's all. As I have said in the past, subtlety does NOT work for a growing number of people. A sledge hammer is the only solution. The more you see fundamental mistakes, the more frustrating it is. For every 1000 fundamental mistakes. You might get a dead person. For every 500, you might get a serious injury. For every 200. you might get a simple injury. For every 10, you might get a near miss. I think Ray is trying to reduce the rate/frequency/volume of fundamental mistakes so that the other ratio's mentioned above take much longer to achieve. In that respect, Ray's pursuit is noble and very Samaritan like. Akin to a very disciplined parent.

I hope Ray keeps trying to save lives in his own unique way. If you can see the intent through the delivery, his advice is useful. If all you see is the delivery and you are not interested in the content, well . . . . . . that is saying something about you.

One life saved . . . . . . . . . . is one less website update for NDG!!!!!!!!

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p.s. Life is all about perspective and perception. It is what you think it is, not what someone else thinks it really is... If you can work that one out, feel free to explain it to me.

I agree, and my post was meant to drive home a point; that no incident in BASE come as a surprise. Things happen because physics demands it.