Basejumper.com - archive

as you may have read on my other posting i am searching for a canopy to make my basetraining while skydiving.

i got that hint, that the "fury" would be a better option compared with the "raven".

what do you think?


edited to add: sorry for my bad english - it is already too late here in europe...

as i said in the other post
try a good accuracy canopy (PARAFOIL 252 or 282)
it will give u a wingloading apropiate to BASE canopy`s... it`s a 7 cell canopy, very stable... u can do a lot of specific training with it...

Raven's rock.
A million years ago, when I started BASE,
that canopy was almost an industry standard for the sport.
My first BASE canopy was a new "custom color" ordered Raven III.
Back-ups were the Fury, Pegasus and Cruiselite.

For practicing BASE specific canopy control in the skydiving world, would you suggest a Fury with dacron lines CRW ready or a Raven of similar size (Raven II) with Micro line?

Keep in mind this canopy will be soley used for skydiving.

For kicks lets put a price cap of 300 on each canopy. The Fury would have 50 jumps (all skydiving) and the Raven II is Used with 0 jumps.

Reason for that question is Ravens tend to come with Spectra lines unless they were specifically ordered with Dacron. I've done a lot of searching for used parachutes and finding a Raven with dacron in the size mostwanted is looking for hasn't proven easy.

Fury's have a longer control range which of course is less important if the wingload is pretty low. Fury's also tend to open nicer than a Raven with Microline.

Thoughts?

With the same lines (see hookitt's post), I'd go with the Raven.

Raven is OK and I have done a few Raven 3 & 4 with BASE mods.
OK, older Raven's that I have bought in the Past for the most part did NOT have any Tail-Seam reinforcement tape.
What this means on No-Slider jumps. Is that where the break-line cascades are attached to the tail-seam. You must take some 1-inch Tape and sew over in that section of tail-seam.
YOU Will eventually rip canopy skin & blow-out, the break-line cascade line connections at the Tail Seam on the canopy. In no-slider jumps.
It only takes 15 minutes to sew some Tape. No big deal.
.
Also sometimes you can find old Ravens used for CRW. They also came with the inboard-A-B lines with heavy Dacron so they could Grab & Dock.
.

I think he just wanted it for skydives, to practice for BASE.

Why though? I have jumped both canopies but neither one in a BASE environment.

I preferred the Fury over the Raven in the skydiving environment. Keep in mind this was quite a few years ago. I didn't have a main for a short time and was at the DZ every day, so I borrowed a Fury, a Raven, and a Falcon for a couple weeks ... (The falcon doesn't count for this discussion)

The Fury opened, flew, and landed well. The Raven was less friendly on opening until it had some jumps on it. The raven is a bit more ground hungry too. I felt the sinkability was better on the Fury.

The sizes (at least the placarded sizes) are about the same - 220 versus 218, so that's comparable.

I guess here's what I'd suggest. Go with the price availability since it's for skydiving. Both will do the trick.

How old? I have a Raven III (Tom has seen this canopy) and it had the Tail-Seam reinforcement. I put a tail pocket on it so I know this for certain.

The Raven he was looking at on ebay will definately have it.

I'm in the opposite boat. I've jumped both canopies (I own a Fury currently, but not a Raven), but never slider-up (on either canopy).

My experience was that the Raven gave softer landings, and had better glide (which seems opposite of your experience). Is it possible that I've just got a Fury that is older or more clapped out than the Raven I jumped?

I also thought the Raven had better slider down openings, but that's irrelevant to the present discussion.

Yeah, it could have been more used, who knows ... and the opposite may have been true in my case as well. I put a BUNCH of jumps on an old Fury and a fair amount on a brand new one and I remember quite well that the openings were great even on the new one. I was jumping a Hi 8 camera and a Nikon 2000 metal body still camera at the time so the ablity to make it open consistantly soft was important.

I deduce from Avery's post that he preferred the Raven as well but I wonder if it's because of the size. 220 Fury versus a Raven III (I think)

I believe you are correct about the slider down opening characteristics.

I kinda think we're splitting hairs on this to be honest. Ravens were designed to open fast which is why they were good for BASE. They are good mains as well.

They have a shallower angle of attack.. meaning they point down more. To be quite frank, I bet at the same wingload, it would be close enough that it wouldn't matter on a skydiving rig.

Completely agree.

If it's just a cheap practice canopy, I'd probably take whichever came up first and go with it.

You can get plenty of used BASE specific canopies for a decent price. Why not jump those?
Personally, I have jumps on both types, and my recommendation is to jump as many different types of big squares as you can. It will help you be able to tell subtle differences in canopies later on. I say get a fury, a raven, and a couple of BASE specifics (y'know, you can borrow or [ugh] rent this stuff too) and put 50+ jumps on all of them in various conditions. And take a good canopy course...even if you think you don't need to. Basic principles apply to BASE canopies too.
cheers,
pope

Absolutely do not use microline on any base canopy!!! There is a specific reason they are never used on BASE specific canopies. Ideally you would to simulate the environment as much as possible so do not pursue this route. Microlines enhance asymmetries on inflation due to the lower elongation compared to that of dacron. This will result in severe off headings and line twists. Please refer to Todd Shoebothom at Apex BASE to reveal their testing on microlines. This lower elongation also overstresses the canopy substantially in the BASE environment.

This will not be used for BASE so I wouldn't worry too much. Ravens are not prone to line twists or off heading openins to begin with so it will not be an issue. Even a Raven with spectra will be a close enough comparison if that's what comes available.

If we were talking about BASE, my suggestion would have nothing to do with microline.

Thanks

Does anyone here see a significant difference in Ravens vs. SuperRavens? When I bought my "let's practice BASE skills" skydiving canopy, I was told to get a SuperRaven as it will simulate a BASE canopy better than a Raven.

I haven't heard anyone else mention the distinction in any of the latest threads.

Lou

PS - I ended up grabbing a SuperRaven III for a very reasonable price.

Yes... the original Raven sucked. There's not many around anymore. If I recall, the material it was made from was 3-5 CFM F-111 instead of 0-3 CFM f-111. In other words, the permeability of the fabric started out pretty high.

It opened slow and that's not a good thing for a reserve. There was a service bulletin regarding the replacement of the standard sail slider with a bikini slider so it would open quicker.

The airfoil changed from the Raven to Super Raven as well.

there is this threat the following:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1901161#1901161
there you can read:

is this all true and is the only way (for me as an ignorant beginner) to differentiate between the Raven and the Super-Raven the DOM? would this be 100% reliable? maybe there is also a label on the canopy that says "Super Raven" on EVERY Super Raven but not on the Raven?

Which one of the Raven and Fury would I choose?

Fox, Flik, Troll, Ace, Blackjack, Rock Dragon, etc.

Whilst the aforementioned are good experience, the ideal is to learn on the canopy you will end up using.

And ANY canopy experience is better than no/little canopy experience.

 
There were a number of changes made when Hazlet worked on the supper Raven. Some of them are easy to spot. The Supper Raven has two tapes running up from the attachment points on the rib. They skipped the one running backwards at the D, low load area. The Raven only had one vertical tape. It makes a difference. You can see it from above. The Supper Raven has a less “bumpy” airfoil front to back then the Raven.
The Bridle reinforcing is different. The supper Raven has a one inch wide span wise tape on top and bottom. As I recall the old Raven had only a patch. I’ve got an older canopy here in the shop but I’m too lazy to dig it out. I think the Raven had a vertical zigzag rather then the two horizontal bar tacks of the supper Raven at the line attachment point. I might be confusing it with another canopy so check me on that.
If people are really looking I have a bunch of Supper Ravens 2, 3, and 4’s. They were reserves that were in service for only a year or two. Few if any jumps. Bad news is they need to be relined. Long story, bought them at a Gov. auction. They made me cut the lines off. Well most of them any ways. Some got “missed” some how… But those have all been sold. The only question is are you man enough to jump a Pussy Pink canopy?

Lee
lee@applieddeceleration.com
info@applieddeceleration.com
www.applieddeceleration.com

pussy pink is the new black!

Maggot will love one!

Super Ravens also open noticeably better than Ravens in slider down jumps.

No matter what everyone says, SRs are decent BASE canopies.

The Fury is an excellent airfoil and one of the best 7-cell ever made. I have one (ugliest colors known to man: pink and burgundy!). The thing is attached to a Warp III harness-only for un-packed/d-bag jumps only.

The Fury has a swallower angle of incidence than a SR so I bet that's the reason why SRs open cleaner slider down. As mentioned by Tim, the Fury has a longer control range and IMO a better flare than a S Raven II. Both are very well constructed (not the original Raven). Both are TSO reserves. The Fury (220) will pack a bit bigger than a SR II. Furys came standard with Dacron lines but I saw few with Spectra from the factory. Furies are still made both as main and reserve and now you can get one with z-po upper.

I'm getting back into BASE and recently pulled out my Super Raven 4. I bought that canopy new specifically for BASE jumping and have never made a skydive on it. Nearly all my jumps on that canopy have been slider-removed, short-delays from 400 ft. or so and I've always loved it's opening and flying characteristics.

The only problem I have ever had is in flaring in low-wind conditions--I had a couple of hard landings, but I don't necessarily blame that on the canopy.

I think the Super Raven is a great choice for BASE. Although I know plenty of BASE jumps have been made on the older Ravens, they are not reinforced as well as the Super Raven, so they are not as structurally sound.

Walt

 

I'm getting back into BASE and recently pulled out my Super Raven 4.
__________________________________________________

Walt
Welcome back.
It's hard, ( actually impossible ), to stay away, isn't it?

be safe

kleggo

Hello, my old friend!

I never thought I would see that day that I would be motivated to jump again but yeah, I miss it. Actually, fuck that--I need it! I *need* a couple of low ones!

Plus, hangin' out with 460 makes it kind of hard to stay away.

Walt

well, i found 2 fury in the 2nd-hand-stocklist of a (almost) local rigger:

DOM: 1987
jumps: 450
price: 277 USD
lines: dacron

DOM: 1988
jumps: 100
price: 307 USD
lines: (maybe without lines)

maybe they are overpriced - i don't know. but i wonder if "all" aviable fury (worldwide) would be 18 years old or even older?